Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 in HughesNet Satellite http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r20437258 en Fri, 09 Jan 2009 01:52:08 EDT Fri, 09 Jan 2009 01:52:08 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20547159 anon : As I've stated before ad nauseam, I got myself off the "list" not by changing WHAT I was accessing, but by changing HOW MUCH I was accessing it and WHEN I was accessing it. And I am still on the same gateway I've always been on. If you believe they have cleared my gateway, and that it has remained clear for over a month, there's this bridge you might be interested in...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20547159 Tue, 27 May 2008 16:55:02 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20546536 anon : As for speculation, all I'm saying is that if it quacks like a duck, it just might be a duck. I don't like being told I'm hearing things, or worse yet, that it's a dog. Many users at least recognize it's some kind of fowl.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20546536 Tue, 27 May 2008 15:07:21 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20546312 anon : I remember, Greg. I just didn't give it much priority since I don't use P2P. (I can access torrentfreak.com again. There's no way I'm gonna take that test.)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20546312 Tue, 27 May 2008 14:23:18 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20546189 grohgreg : I find it ironic that everybody has conveniently forgotten that I suggested a relationship between ISP intervention and P2P protocol not long after you folks launched this speculation fest.

//greg//
--
HN7000S/74cm/1w/ProPlus - G16/1250H/Germantown - NAT 66.82.187.152/Gateway 66.82.25.10/DNS 66.82.4.12 and 66.82.4.8 - Firefox 3 - AVG+Firewall v7.5]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20546189 Tue, 27 May 2008 14:00:01 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20546074 anon : As of this morning, I'm no longer able to connect to torrentfreak.com. "Failure To connect To Web Server."]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20546074 Tue, 27 May 2008 13:41:11 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20544565 txsfrbl : 6:10 am
Checking before leaving for work.
Demonoid tracker allowed and online. I'll check the situation when I get home from work.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20544565 Tue, 27 May 2008 07:15:08 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20544049 anon : I've been getting low evening download speeds for several weeks. Last week I finished a set of speed tests, and these clearly show I have the "4-12 throttle" problem discussed in this thread. I have the Pro Plan with "1 Mbps" nominal downloads. Before 4 PM EDT and after midnight EDT I'm getting 800-900 kbps, but I get 60-80 kbps from 4 PM to midnight, with an almost-immediate transition at 4 PM and midnight.

I called HughesNet tech support and described the problem. I was told (like many of you) that my slow speeds are the result of heavy network use during peak hours, and connection speeds are not guaranteed. Several techs and their supervisor repeated this mantra almost verbatim, and they all declared that this is not HughesNet's problem and there is nothing for them to fix.

I pointed out that their own web site says I should typically get 650-750 kbps during peak times:
»www.gethughesnet.com/HUGHES/Room···0E66D0]]
I suggested that this was evidence of either a problem that needed fixing or false advertising. They didn't budge.

I attempted to negotiate a financial arrangement with the billing department. (There is no reason to think that this is just a temporary problem.) I am willing to pay for the service I receive, and I suggested that I pay the full rate for the 8 hours when the service is acceptable, and only 10% during the 4-12 peak hours. (The midnight-8 AM block is irrelevant to me.) The billing department rejected my offer.

At this point I see no reason for further discussion with HughesNet. I'm going to press my case with the Federal and state Government regulators and consumer groups.

Has anyone initiated a discussion with the BBB or regulatory agencies (for example, the FCC)?

HN 7000S, Pro Plan, 127 W, 1330 MHz, 0.98 m dish, 2 W Tx]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20544049 Tue, 27 May 2008 00:29:01 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20543652 anon : Interesting concept, Michael: Customer Base Shaping]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20543652 Mon, 26 May 2008 22:38:45 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20543638 anon : I don't have any personal experience with torrents, but while researching other things I came across this interesting comment dated 05/13/08:

"Okay, I tested my ISP which is HughesNet (domain name direcpc.com) and found out some interesting things. Instead of throttling individual ports related to torrents, as soon as they detect you’re accessing a torrent they THROTTLE YOUR SUBNET and everything behind it. Once I did the test, I was only able to download at 10KB until 12AM, EST. So Hughes will let your torrents through without shaping them, but will then flag your ENTIRE connection! They should be added to the list."

torrentfreak.com/test-does-your-isp-slow-down-bittorrent-traffic-080507/comment-page-4/]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20543638 Mon, 26 May 2008 22:36:32 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20541927 MichaelRS : If you read the prior post that points to HNS patents in this domain and approaches used to traffic shape Canadian customers, you can corroborate that they can and will traffic shape individual customers base upon usage patterns.

You do not have any leverage with your contract as Hughes is overexposed to deliver services on the medioacre income they make. So they will be more then happy to let you go. Even with a new 2 year contract they may still refund the equipment just so that they can shape their customer base.
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HN7000S - Satmex 6 - was 1210, now 1250 (May '08) - 0.98m / 2W dish - HughesNet ProPlus]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20541927 Mon, 26 May 2008 15:34:07 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20541102 txsfrbl : I've been enjoying this thread and the knowledge shared, so here's what I've found.
I frequently upload my music and some friends stuff as torrent and I'm a member of Demonoid. About two weeks ago Hughes has throttled the Demonoid tracker. I can no longer connect when I'm at home and upload anything. My client (utorrent) gives me an error "connection closed by peer".
When I take my laptop that I'm using to upload to work and hook in the the dsl.... everything works fine.
What kind of beautiful traffic shaping is this.
I'm doing some more research so I can make the "Long Call" to customer service and get this fixed. I'm no longer under contract with Hughes and EVDO is available it's just going to be a little while longer before I can afford the new equipment (new baby in the house, if you know what I mean), so I hope this gives me some sort of leverage with Hughes knowing that I can just quit their service at anytime.

Does anyone have any information that pertains to my shaping situation that I can use?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20541102 Mon, 26 May 2008 12:17:56 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20537331 MichaelRS : Well maybe one of the smart equity analysts covering HNS could ask that question on the next earnings call.
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HN7000S - Satmex 6 - was 1210, now 1250 (May '08) - 0.98m / 2W dish - HughesNet ProPlus]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20537331 Sun, 25 May 2008 12:52:55 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20532016 randyvsatus :
quote:
=MMS747]... I'm also wondering how many customers have given up on Hughes and gone elsewhere. Judging by the posts here in the forums, the numbers could be substantial. You'd think it would have some effect, either on overcrowding or on Hughes' business practices.


If Hughes Communications wanted to commit business suicide they would just get in every customers face and say "This ain't Burger King, you take what we give you or you get throttled"....but isn't that what they are doing?

As long as HughesNet can book over 12,000 new customers a month....they aren't too worried about losing 3,000-4,000 heavy users each month...trust me.
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1.2M Dish |4 watt|iDirect|||Qwest DSL|7168 / 896 Kbps]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20532016 Fri, 23 May 2008 23:13:59 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20530824 anon : The true test will be how long it lasts. As stated before, I went through a brief lull sometime in March when 4-12 speeds returned to normal, without any conscious effort on my part. With my latest experiment, I am coming up on my one month anniversary of moderate to no throttling. I'm also wondering how many customers have given up on Hughes and gone elsewhere. Judging by the posts here in the forums, the numbers could be substantial. You'd think it would have some effect, either on overcrowding or on Hughes' business practices. Funny how many of us were resigned to the effects of overcrowding, until they started this in-your-face 4-12 thing.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20530824 Fri, 23 May 2008 18:31:05 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20530631 MichaelRS : Magic here too!

I was putting a web page together to help with the fires in Santa Cruz and things flowed like honey.

Zap, today, somehow things ran faster, I first checked the system info and the signal strenght was up 10 from 81 to 91, which was surprising but then the resolution: New Transponder at 1250 from 1210. Also the Symbol Rate went up from 30 to 33. Next thing: Speed test. Voila, no 4-12 switch thus far. This happened today, not yesterday.

What is remarkable though is that the 4-12 turndown took pretty much exactly 4 weeks, on the day, Friday to Friday.

Here is what I am wondering. If one does these HNS speed tests, their system can read them. If one only does bad speed tests, does their systme maybe flag this user/modem as having bad data ? If so, is their system smart enough to change and fix things after say, 28 days ? Imean these stupid boxes only do what you tell them to do, maybe they got tuned that much. Maybe it does that right before the billing cycle starts/ends ?

I did not really change using pattern, I did also not consistently work or did not work in the FAP free time either.
--
HN7000S - Satmex 6 - was 1210, now 1250 (May '08) - 0.98m / 2W dish - HughesNet ProPlus]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20530631 Fri, 23 May 2008 17:53:46 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20521218 anon : Looks good. I'm sticking with my program a bit longer. This is the longest I've gone without a throttle this year. Had a couple of weeks in March. I hope they're ending it. Wonder how many customers they lost?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20521218 Wed, 21 May 2008 23:55:13 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20521114 slaver : Nope same as always, you know my speeds befor 4 - 12, well here is 11:30

May 21st, 11:32PM - 1380/200 kbps
May 21st, 09:58PM - 1096/157 kbps
May 21st, 09:57PM - 1051/45 kbps
--
HN 7000S Pro Plus 74 west, 1130]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20521114 Wed, 21 May 2008 23:33:56 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20521033 anon : And how do your speeds look?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20521033 Wed, 21 May 2008 23:21:03 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20521016 anon : Did you change anything, or were just using your connection like you always have?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20521016 Wed, 21 May 2008 23:17:31 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20520909 slaver : Like majic after 17 days my 4 -12 throttle was lifted, yeaa
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HN 7000S Pro Plus 74 west, 1130]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20520909 Wed, 21 May 2008 22:52:22 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20517895 anon : Thanks for the information. I would be very interested in knowing more about your situation. The drop you speak of, is it like throwing a switch? For example, 850kbps download at 7:57, dropping to 80kbps at 8:01? (The 8:00 hour is very atypical and could indicate some other problem.) What is your service plan, satellite, transponder, and gateway (router address)? More details of usage patterns, including use of FAP FREE zone, use of peak hours, streaming data, etc. Also, you characterize your usage as extremely low, but say you monitor your usage so you don't get FAPed; this is a bit contradictory. (I ask this because in the months leading up to my extended throttle, I too was using hnFAPMon to make sure I didn't go over my threshold.) From what I've seen, depending on usage patterns, it is possible to be throttled without coming close to FAP. As stated by others elsewhere, the root cause is overcrowding, but that alone doesn't explain some of the patterns we're seeing.

Once again, let me say that it's highly atypical to see a throttle-like drop in speeds at 8AM. Have you tried calling Hughes about it? In your case, I think I would.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20517895 Wed, 21 May 2008 14:09:35 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20516479 anon : Despite my extremely low internet usage,I have been throttled for about 3 months now on and off. Im very careful to monitor my usage so I dont get FAPed,and I have never even come close to doing it.Yet my service has just been getting worse and worse as time goes on. Like clockwork every day,From midnight to 8 AM my speed is great,but as soon as it hits 8 AM it drops to horrendous sub dial-up speeds. Sadly, its either Hughes or dialup where I live,and since im still under the two year contract I cant leave Hughes without paying a huge fee.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20516479 Wed, 21 May 2008 09:46:23 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20479263 anon : I wonder if the grace period (one month?) some new users report before their performance drops is the time it takes to build up a usage history?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20479263 Wed, 14 May 2008 01:24:03 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20478979 anon : Michael, your neighbors fit right into the pattern. Check this out:

From what I've seen, Hughes now divides the day into three management periods: FAP FREE, non-peak and peak (4-12). During peak, based on usage patterns, a user may be under full throttle, variable throttle, or no throttle. Furthermore, a user may be classed as throttle exempt or non-exempt. In "throttle exempt" not only is a user exempt from any throttling, but may also see a sustained increase in performance at all hours.

Your "Potty Training Algorithm" is also a Carrot-and-Stick algorithm. Not only are you punished for bad behavior, but you are rewarded for good behavior. In my case, with continued good behavior, not only am I exempt from throttling, but my speeds (750) are above what is advertised (700).

"My Own Personal FAP"

Home Plan, 117W, 1090MHz, Router Address: 66.82.156.169]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20478979 Tue, 13 May 2008 23:58:34 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20478527 MichaelRS : So I checked into our neighbors HN wifi network to check out what they got. I am not sure, why I did not try that earlier. Anyway, they are on 89W, 1270. That was previously reported as 4-12 throttled. So I checked them out and voila, they are not. They are on a 1000/150 plan (based upon speed testing) which comes down though to 500/50 during peak hours. I am tending to believe in the personal potty training algorithm (PTA). I would just be so much more nicer if HN would publicly explain the algorithm so people could behave accordingly. But in further thinking, I believe they rather want to get rid of non-compliant customers.
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HN7000S - Satmex 6 - 1210 - 0.98m / 2W dish - HughesNet ProPlus]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20478527 Tue, 13 May 2008 22:33:34 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20471999 anon : The cure is self-evident; the cause is a Hughes algorithm. I've taken it as far as I can go with my limited resources. You're the satellite engineer. Someone who knows what they're looking for might see something in the diagnostics back pages. Why don't you get yourself throttled and go looking for it?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20471999 Mon, 12 May 2008 19:48:37 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20471829 grohgreg :
said by MMS747 :

There are two fundamentally different approaches at work here: You are concerned about the trigger, I'm more concerned about the cure.
Good grief. That's like finding an interesting looking pill on the sidewalk, then trying out all the different illness to see which one it cures. To use your word, it's fundamentally sound troubleshooting to first determine the cause - because that in itself often makes the cure self evident.

//greg//
--
HN7000S/74cm/1w/ProPlus - G16/1250H/Germantown - NAT 66.82.187.152/Gateway 66.82.25.10/DNS 66.82.4.12 and 66.82.4.8 - Firefox 3 - AVG+Firewall v7.5]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20471829 Mon, 12 May 2008 19:15:28 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20471798 nedriv :
said by MMS747 :

...They say it's "free" but is it really?...
Well, the Fap Free time is free in terms of not being FAPPED for going over your plan limits, but I feel HN then penalized me for using the FAP FREE time. I was downloading about 1+GB every night for about 3 weeks for a total of 24GB. Anyway, now that I know this I'll be careful to use the FAP Free time a little less agressively and see how or if that impacts me.

I have been generally satisfied with HN, especially given I have no choice but dial-up or HN. I guess I can make it work. But give me another choice, and I'll seriously consider dumping HN.

Ed
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Hn7000 / 89 West / 1390 Mhz]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20471798 Mon, 12 May 2008 19:11:19 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20471717 anon : You might be right, Ed. When I first noticed the 4-12 throttle, I sometimes downloaded as much as 250MB (I'm Home Plan) during FAP FREE. That's why I included it as part of my experimental changes. All things being equal, if you had to throttle someone - who would you throttle? The guy who downloads some, or the guy who downloads "more than his fair share?" FAP FREE use might be part of the equation. They say it's "free" but is it really?

It's interesting that it took about 2 weeks for your 4-12 throttle to be automatically lifted. That's about how long it took mine.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20471717 Mon, 12 May 2008 18:56:02 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20471518 nedriv :
said by MMS747 :

... I have reduced the frequency and quantity of use of the FAP FREE hours, but believe this is less important. ....
I believe I am the typical user that Hughesnet wants to have. Most of what I do is email and typical browsing. I do an occasional youtube stream. I download updates to software and some other freeware/shareware programs. I got FAPPED twice since 2004. Once when my wife streamed 3 episodes of the "LOST" Tv series in a row. The other time I was FAPPED was when I recently changed my usage habits. I found a website that has alot of the old time radio programs, and decided to start using a download manager during the FAP FREE time to get old radio programs. I forgot to stop all downloads at 3am Pacific time and got FAPPED. So, why do I give you all this background?

I got hit with the 4-12 slowdown after using the FAP Free time extensively. I figured my use of the FAP Free hours was the cause of MY 4-12 slow down so I stopped using it immediately. About two weeks later, 4-12 speeds returned to normal and have been normal ever since.

So I believe the FAP Free time was absolutely important in my case for my 4-12 slow down.

Just my two cents worth.

Ed
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Hn7000 / 89 West / 1390 Mhz]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20471518 Mon, 12 May 2008 18:19:41 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20471344 anon : I'm out of here for now. If I found out anything important, I'll let you know.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20471344 Mon, 12 May 2008 17:46:00 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20471142 anon : Fair enough. I don't call it "My Own Personal FAP" for nothing. ;) There are two fundamentally different approaches at work here: You are concerned about the trigger, I'm more concerned about the cure. People can draw their own conclusions.

"My Own Personal FAP"

Home Plan, 117W, 1090MHz, Router Address: 66.82.156.169]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20471142 Mon, 12 May 2008 17:12:37 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20471007 grohgreg :
said by MMS747 :

Anyone who has read my posts can clearly see that I have gone out of my way not to misrepresent my knowledge.
Nor have I suggested any such thing. I also think I've been quite clear in suggesting that you simply do not understand what you're reading. As such, your conclusions are for the most part based upon misunderstanding - not misrepresentation.

As such, the satellite engineer in me wants to make sure that other impressionable readers who come across your "conclusions" for whatever reason - are also presented with an opportunity to consider a supportable counterpoint.

//greg//]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20471007 Mon, 12 May 2008 16:48:27 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20471003 slaver : Interesting:

»www.bluestarinternet.net/hughesn···band.htm

There are two levels of FAP that can be applied. The first is known as a "soft throttle" and sets a limit on your maximum download speed. The second, or "hard throttle", restricts the offending site to less than 64kbps. Once FAP is applied to a particular site it can take several hours for the FAP to be lifted. Customers on higher service plans will be able to use the service more heavily without running the risk of being subjected to FAP. In the same way, higher service plans will have the FAP lifted at a quicker rate than sites on , say, the basic home level package]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20471003 Mon, 12 May 2008 16:47:34 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20470684 anon : Anyone who has read my posts can clearly see that I have gone out of my way not to misrepresent my knowledge. On the other hand, anyone can see that your last post was a smoke screen meant to accomplish I know not what. I am beginning to doubt your aims: are they to educate or to dominate?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20470684 Mon, 12 May 2008 15:54:14 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20470506 anon : I know about patents. I have three of them.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20470506 Mon, 12 May 2008 15:25:35 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20470485 anon : Not that it matters, but the US and European applications were both filed on the same date: 01/07/2005.

United States Patent 20050163048 "Method and system for providing committed information rate (CIR) based fair access policy" issued on 07/28/2005.

European Patent EP1553740 "Method and system for providing committed information rate (CIR) based fair access policy" issued on 07/13/2005.

No doubt it was filed in all regions of the world where Hughes operates. But I'm not exactly sure what your motives were for even making this statement.

If you would read my other posts, you will see that I reported that the FAP changes had been made a year ago, but that I myself was unaware of the extent of the changes until the "4-12 thing" started. In particular, I direct you to my post on page 4 (middle) where I pasted the post by "Arion" from 2007-05-20 in which he discusses the Hughes CIR patent.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20470485 Mon, 12 May 2008 15:20:07 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20470300 grohgreg :
said by MMS747 :

My interpretation is admittedly simplistic, and to tell the truth I was reluctant to post it. Interpretation is not what I originally set out to do; I simply don't feel qualified. But with all due respect, your explanation is even more simplistic, and appears outdated. I elected to ignore your explanation because I found better.
Well, it's clear now that you didn't go past the patent summary (European patent by the way). If you'd actually reviewed (or understood) the entire 27 page document, I don't believe you'd have ignored my (more current) explanation. And I can say "MORE current" with confidence, because Hughes made an observable change to the way they handled FAP last year (much to the consternation of many members here). Consequently, some of the descriptives in the 2005 patent are no longer current.

Just because somebody files a patent, doesn't mean they're irrevocably bound by its contents. All a patent does is make sure that nobody else infringes on their technique for a while. After filing, the applicant is free and clear to modify subsequent execution.

//greg//
--
HN7000S/74cm/1w/ProPlus - G16/1250H/Germantown - NAT 66.82.187.152/Gateway 66.82.25.10/DNS 66.82.4.12 and 66.82.4.8 - Firefox 3 - AVG+Firewall v7.5]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20470300 Mon, 12 May 2008 14:49:14 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20469576 anon : Higher service plans can probably adjust their activity accordingly.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20469576 Mon, 12 May 2008 12:12:29 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20469564 anon : I messed up the end:

So at this point in my little experiment, on a "heavy" usage day I will surf as much as I want when I want, may stream video for an hour give or take, and then might use FAP FREE to download less than 100MB. I'm sure activity can be tweaked up, which is what I'll try next.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20469564 Mon, 12 May 2008 12:08:49 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20469552 anon : For anyone interested in trying it, here is what I did and didn't do to remove myself from the "4-12 list." First, I didn't change any of the activities I was doing before. None of these activities (that I am aware of) involved P2P such as BitTorrent. All that I changed was the quantity (bandwidth used) of the activities, and their hours. I still stream video (using a low to moderate bit rate which I have done since long before the "4-12 thing" appeared). Specifically, I watch news programs using RealPlayer and Windows Media Player at 150? (Real) to 350? (WMP) optional rates. And I still use YouTube. I still do normal surfing at any hour of the day, peak or off peak. For downloading and streaming, I try to avoid the 4-12 peak, but occasionally dip into it. I have reduced the frequency and quantity of use of the FAP FREE hours, but believe this is less important. I might experiment with increasing use of the FAP FREE to see what effect this has. I should also try steadily increasing the total bucket downloaded per day to see what effect this has. So at this point in my little experiment, on a "heavy" usage day I will surf as much as I want when I want, may stream video for an hour give or take, and then might use FAP to download less than 100 85MB. I'm sure activity can be tweaked up, which is what I'll try next.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20469552 Mon, 12 May 2008 12:05:52 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20468889 anon : Your advice to look elsewhere for a trigger is good. But, as I'm sure you understand, after finding a way to avoid the condition, it's less pressing to find the trigger. I'm sure that someone who knows what they're looking for might find it buried somewhere in the diagnostics pages.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20468889 Mon, 12 May 2008 09:52:45 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20468834 anon : My interpretation is admittedly simplistic, and to tell the truth I was reluctant to post it. Interpretation is not what I originally set out to do; I simply don't feel qualified. But with all due respect, your explanation is even more simplistic, and appears outdated. I elected to ignore your explanation because I found better.

All I have done in my contribution to this topic is to document what I have found. Anyone can retrace my steps and read the original documents for themselves, and come to their own conclusions. I have included documentation generated by Hughes itself. I suggest you actually read the Hughes 2005 patent that I have cited. My understanding of this patent has been corroborated by others more knowledgeable than I.

The interpretation I posted of my own data is a sort of closure for "my own personal FAP." Whether anyone agrees with it or is not so important as this: If I act as though a soft throttle exists, I can avoid it.

"My Own Personal FAP"

Home Plan, 117W, 1090MHz, Router Address: 66.82.156.169]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20468834 Mon, 12 May 2008 09:38:05 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20468597 grohgreg : I'm disappointed you elected to ignore the first time I explained this. Whereas these attempts to understand the issue (and your patience) are admirable, your conclusions are still based upon faulty interpretation of incidental information. Bottom line; you STILL don't understand "soft throttle".

So here we go again. Assuming you've got a HN7000S, it's independently capable of 121 Mbps downloads and 1.6 Mbps uploads. Only thing is - to achieve this maximum available throughput - you'd have to be the only person accessing the gateway modem at the time . So to make sure the REST of the customers assigned to that gateway get their SHARE of the available 121 Mbps, individual customer modems are soft-throttled to speeds consistent with their rate plans. My modem for example, is on the consumer ProPlus plan. Hence, it's soft-throttled to no more than a 1500k/256k SHARE of the whole 121M/1.6M capability. Understand too, that everybody on my gateway has to SHARE that potential 121 Mbps. As more customers simultaneously access the gateway, the less of that 121 Mbps there is to share. I can expect LESS than 1500/256, but the soft throttle is in place to make sure that I don't get MORE. It's no more complicated than that.

Hard throttle on the other hand, is when your throughput is reduced for cause - most often for FAP abuse, but seemingly in some cases of AUP abuse as well. The 3rd throttle is more of a clamp; chronic abusers get their transmitter remotely disabled. Repeated chronic abuse results in account deactivation.

If you still wish to pursue this so-called "4-12 issue", you really need something better than a misinterpretation of soft throttle. Yes, the phenomenon described by a very few does have the earmarks of some kind of throttle. But rather than wasting your time on assigning some arbitrary name to the issue, wouldn't it be more productive to concentrate on what is TRIGGERING it?

//greg//
--
HN7000S/74cm/1w/ProPlus - G16/1250H/Germantown - NAT 66.82.187.152/Gateway 66.82.25.10/DNS 66.82.4.12 and 66.82.4.8 - Firefox 3 - AVG+Firewall v7.5]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20468597 Mon, 12 May 2008 08:09:41 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20468004 anon : Results of my experiment so far. Interpretation: There are three noticeable zones. January - April 27th was "4-12 FAP." April 28th to approx May 6th was "4-12 soft throttle." Approx May 7th to present was unthrottled or "throttle exempt."

Starting from the beginning of the experiment (approx April 10th) it took about 2 to 3 weeks to be automatically lifted from the 4-12 FAP, and approximately 1 month to be exempted from any throttle (unthrottled). Probably would vary depending on usage.

During 4-12 FAP, there was a marked difference between peak and off-peak speeds. During 4-12 soft throttle, a small difference between peak and off-peak. During the current "throttle exempt" period there is essentially no difference between peak and off-peak, depending on network health for the day. Notice that there has been a general increase in top speeds from an inconsistent 700+/- to a consistent 750+/-.

May 12th, 12:11AM - 752/125 kbps
May 11th, 10:38PM - 752/124 kbps
May 11th, 05:29PM - 752/122 kbps
May 11th, 04:28AM - 758/123 kbps
May 11th, 12:58AM - 756/119 kbps
May 10th, 08:31PM - 752/124 kbps
May 10th, 03:21PM - 747/100 kbps
May 10th, 12:26PM - 749/114 kbps
May 10th, 02:31AM - 643/123 kbps
May 10th, 12:27AM - 492/112 kbps
May 10th, 12:20AM - 513/119 kbps
May 9th, 11:50PM - 729/124 kbps
May 9th, 11:48PM - 662/125 kbps
May 9th, 05:09PM - 753/102 kbps
May 9th, 12:17PM - 751/75 kbps
May 9th, 01:05AM - 756/124 kbps
May 8th, 08:54PM - 755/123 kbps
May 8th, 04:10PM - 758/113 kbps
May 8th, 03:07PM - 755/121 kbps
May 7th, 09:29PM - 754/96 kbps
May 7th, 04:23PM - 751/115 kbps
May 7th, 01:00PM - 749/124 kbps
May 7th, 01:33AM - 755/125 kbps

May 6th, 10:02PM - 695/111 kbps
May 6th, 04:18PM - 747/112 kbps
May 5th, 10:10PM - 673/120 kbps
May 5th, 08:12PM - 682/119 kbps
May 4th, 11:13PM - 683/123 kbps
May 4th, 06:57PM - 691/123 kbps
May 4th, 05:18PM - 706/118 kbps
May 3rd, 11:14PM - 692/123 kbps
May 3rd, 03:09PM - 704/123 kbps
May 2nd, 11:05PM - 682/123 kbps
May 2nd, 03:51PM - 703/123 kbps
May 1st, 11:43PM - 678/123 kbps
April 30th, 11:01PM - 681/122 kbps
April 30th, 07:18PM - 675/64 kbps
April 30th, 12:16AM - 680/123 kbps
April 29th, 11:10PM - 657/122 kbps
April 29th, 07:21PM - 656/114 kbps
April 29th, 03:11AM - 690/123 kbps
April 29th, 12:04AM - 692/123 kbps
April 28th, 11:42PM - 673/122 kbps
April 28th, 10:27PM - 650/121 kbps

April 23rd, 11:18PM - 78/54 kbps
April 23rd, 12:05AM - 695/123 kbps
April 20th, 11:17PM - 80/59 kbps
April 17th, 10:42PM - 73/40 kbps
April 16th, 10:14PM - 82/120 kbps
April 15th, 10:22PM - 61/49 kbps
April 14th, 11:01PM - 80/69 kbps
March 2nd, 09:40PM - 78/124 kbps
March 2nd, 02:36PM - 701/122 kbps
February 29th, 12:03AM - 696/122 kbps
February 28th, 11:41PM - 81/123 kbps
February 23rd, 09:14PM - 78/75 kbps
February 22nd, 09:53PM - 80/45 kbps
February 22nd, 02:26AM - 699/123 kbps
February 21st, 09:17PM - 77/34 kbps
February 20th, 01:08PM - 612/123 kbps
February 20th, 01:03PM - 74/123 kbps
February 6th, 02:07AM - 711/123 kbps
February 1st, 09:13PM - 107/68 kbps
January 31st, 10:08PM - 105/51 kbps
January 30th, 01:21PM - 700/113 kbps
January 28th, 08:59PM - 117/59 kbps
January 27th, 09:13PM - 109/37 kbps
January 26th, 10:30PM - 100/54 kbps

"My Own Personal FAP"

Home Plan, 117W, 1090MHz, Router Address: 66.82.156.169]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20468004 Mon, 12 May 2008 01:05:51 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20465393 MichaelRS : Thanks for digging out the patent and thanks to the other posters digging out the Canada and European situation. As companies are run by business decisions rather than technical, the prior are driving their behavior. They have a patent on that, they will use it and it reaveals their thinking. The 4-12 step change is a more than clear proof.

What is really trouble some is that HNS selectively throttle customers and that HNS is considered a "broadband" provider. In my mind these actions limit freedom of information and freedom of speech beyond what is reasonable and down to the individual level. In that sense neither the FCC nor the government can consider HNS as a service prodvider for broadband access to everyone. As it was said previously HNS (and other satellite internet providers) are used as a fig leave to claim broadband coverage is up in the US, up on par and where it needs to be for a develped country. This traffic shaping issue is the clearest proof it is not, it is disqualifying HNS from clling anything they do "broadband". It used to be... It could be... but it is not.

HNS and others should rather waste their engineering resources on finding ways to deal with new internet realities, ie how to get the traffic demand through their narrow pipes, rather then cajole their customers into potty training courses. What is the next thing they do?
* disallow educational course to be seen
* access to critical websites, such as this and the EFF, and the BBS
* send emails with HNS critical content

Is that the America they talk about in the constitution?
Somehow it reminds me of Big Brother and the former Eastern Block potty training its citizens.
Let's fac it HNS and other Internet providers are de facto utilities and more (congressional) oversight is probably advised.
--
HN7000S - Satmex 6 - 1210 - 0.98m / 2W dish - HughesNet ProPlus]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20465393 Sun, 11 May 2008 13:14:49 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20461308 anon : Thank you dslreports.com for letting me think out loud (ramble) through your forums. And thanks to everyone I've met in here. This "4-12 thing" has been a real eye-opener. My progress has been clumsy, but I think I got somewhere. Though an amateur at this satellite stuff, 6 years of watching my modem blink apparently counts for something.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20461308 Sat, 10 May 2008 12:13:13 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20460427 anon : Apparently, I've been soft throttled for some time now, and didn't realize it until they started this "4-12 thing."]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20460427 Sat, 10 May 2008 05:32:48 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20460416 anon : Here it is, folks. I finally found it. A discussion of the soft throttle by people more knowledgeable than me. And it's from a year ago! There's a whole string, but the following post is particularly interesting.

dslreports.com, HughesNet Satellite Forum, Topic: Hughesnet and Us, posted by "Arion" 2007-05-20:

"...You have to read the Hughes fap patent to grasp an idea of what the dynamic means. It's hidden in and amongst the geek talk and technicalgoobledegook.

Shortly after this fap policy went into effect someone on the forum found the Hughes Fap patent and posted a link to it. I went to the link and attempted to read it. It's very complicated but the salient part about what "dynamic" means is a number of variables are taken into effect. And the result is different between you and me.

One will test and say "the refill rate is still in effect", another will test and say it's a hard fap with no refill, still another it's a rolling fap. They are all correct in their individual case. "dynamic" means just that. It constantly changes. There's no way to pin a number on it with something substantive that you can hang your hat on.

The system takes the following into consideration in determining your particular fap status (among other things). Your type of modem, your type of service plan, your aggregate download history over an unspecified period of time (could be days, weeks or months), current system loading, weather conditions at the noc, etc.....

Based on all of the above your assigned a "CIR" committed information rate that might vary. They state that this is to give everyone an "equal" shot at the available bandwidth on any particular transponder/gateway assignment. Someone who is an "economical" user based on the above criteria is assigned a larger CIR at any given time.

So what that boils down to is if you consistently use most or all of your "bucket" every day then they will soft throttle you and you will experience slowdowns even if you don't fap. As an example...say that I'm on a home residential 200mb plan. Over an unspecified period of time I
average 150/160mb a day. I would not be an "economical" user in Hughes estimation and I might be soft throttled. However if I use 150/160mb a day and I'm on the pro plan (375mb bucket) then I'm considered an economical user as I use about half my allotment any given day.

Those of us who are "economical" users have been seeing much better DL speeds both on peak and off peak times. Several times in the past month I've seen sub 350kbps dl speeds but it doesn't last long. Usually around peak times I'm up about 800kbps. So in effect they are rewarding me for staying well below my plan authorization per day.

Of course there are still those who are getting fapped for no reason and there are other reasons for network slowdowns....weather, a large amount of automatic updates when patches for popular products are released, etc, etc, etc. So in effect they are giving you a moving target that you will never be able to hit and the technical support people don't really know any better than you do because the system itself figures this all out for each and every one of us and treats us according to their formulas.

Do they have nefarious plans to force out the "heavy users" to make room for more economical ones?? I wouldn't doubt it at all although I'm sure they would never admit it on record. No doubt they have looked at all the ramifications before they put the plan into operation and I'm sure as time goes on they will massage it. If their overall aim is to scare people about fapping and to make them more aware of their download behavior I would have to say that from what I can read on the forum since then it appears to be working.

Everyone is different and we all use the net differently. From my own personal standpoint as an "economical" user I love it. I have much better performance than before and on the rare occasions I have to DL an iso or something enough of you have proven it can be done thru a download manager and setting the rate low enough to avoid triggering the fap. We shall see if Hughes loses too many customers or not. When the next quarter rolls around and if too many people vote with their feet then I'm sure they will "reanalyze" their policy. We shall see."]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20460416 Sat, 10 May 2008 05:20:02 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20457662 MonstaDriva : lol I'm only picking with you but in reality thats almost what it really is kinda . It should not have to be like that .]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20457662 Fri, 09 May 2008 15:15:25 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20457376 anon : As for potty training, here's my next step: I've located my minimum. Now to find my maximum.

"My Own Personal FAP"

Home Plan, 117W, 1090MHz, Router Address: 66.82.156.169]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20457376 Fri, 09 May 2008 14:09:56 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20457284 anon : You are right. It may boil down to whether or not you can work around the 4-12. And as Michael alluded to on page 2, if you can't they'll just find someone who can.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20457284 Fri, 09 May 2008 13:51:37 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20457235 MonstaDriva :
said by MMS747 :

Here's where all this is leading me. Call it MY Own Personal FAP. First the facts. I know a "hard throttle" exists. Hughes tells me it exists (FAP), and by acting accordingly, I can avoid it. Now the conjecture. I suspect I have been "soft throttled." Hughes Europe uses a soft throttle, and their VARs explain it to their customers. Here in the US, I have no proof that a "soft throttle" exists, only indications. But here's the kicker: If I act as if a soft throttle exists, I can avoid it. In fact, my speeds are the best they've been all year, regardless of the hour.

Home Plan, 117W, 1090MHz, Router Address: 66.82.156.169
See , thats what I mean . You've been potty trained now . You have great speeds and scared to use then or they might be taken away . This is just what hughes net wants . You give them your money , browse the net and fear to use the megs they promise you per day . Whats good about those speeds if all you can do is run speed test and browse ? ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20457235 Fri, 09 May 2008 13:42:47 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20456939 slaver : You said it absolutely correct monsta. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20456939 Fri, 09 May 2008 12:52:49 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20456896 anon : Here's where all this is leading me. Call it MY Own Personal FAP. First the facts. I know a "hard throttle" exists. Hughes tells me it exists (FAP), and by acting accordingly, I can avoid it. Now the conjecture. I suspect I have been "soft throttled." Hughes Europe uses a soft throttle, and their VARs explain it to their customers. Here in the US, I have no proof that a "soft throttle" exists, only indications. But here's the kicker: If I act as if a soft throttle exists, I can avoid it. In fact, my speeds are the best they've been all year, regardless of the hour.

Home Plan, 117W, 1090MHz, Router Address: 66.82.156.169]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20456896 Fri, 09 May 2008 12:43:37 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20456248 anon : Check out what's happing in Canada, where the traffic shaping is more out in the open and in-your-face. Google "traffic shaping Canada." Read the articles, but also read the comments following the articles. The debate is raging full force up there right now, especially following the complaint to the Canadian Radio-Television and Telecommunications Commission.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20456248 Fri, 09 May 2008 10:45:58 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20455490 MonstaDriva : The bottem line here is the 4 to 12 throttle is a screw job on certain users .If its just some kind of managment tool , Why not just let us deal with normal congestion with dips down into the 100's , 200's 300's etc . This method makes it like hughesnet are the ones hogging up all the bandwidth and its them denying us decent service during primetime . Most people are home after 4 and go to bed before midnight so effectively they are screwing you right out of the hours you'd like to set and enjoy your internet time . Its like they have found a way to take your money and screw you right out of what you are suppose to get for that money . Its pure dee thievery . I was much happier dealing with nature , nature being normal traffic . They always say , if you need more megs you should consider a higher plan , But they punish you even if you get a higher plan . I have broken no rules nor any terms of the contract . If I do download at the advertized speed that takes a total of 45 minutes over a 24 hour period . What the heck is so bad about that ? ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20455490 Fri, 09 May 2008 08:20:14 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20451896 anon : (Greg, I am RandyB21. Don't ask. Suffice it to say that these forums are monitored.)

What's standard to some is a revelation to others. I had no idea that ISPs have the tools to codify and control with such precision the usage of individual users. (I'm obviously not a frequent visitor to the diagnostics pages). But your statement that it "reveals nothing obviously related to this "4-12 thing" is not entirely correct. First, it further defines the meaning and use of various levels of throttle. The "soft throttle" is more than just the contracted service level. Second, it shows the growing sophistication of "traffic shaping" tools. Once again, I stress that this only illustrates what ISPs are CAPABLE of. It doesn't necessarily apply to the "4-12 thing." ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20451896 Thu, 08 May 2008 14:06:03 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20451884 anon : I have tremendous product loyalty. I've been driving only Dodges, and specifically Dodge Dakotas, since 1988. :D

As for the cable (Comcast), I'd have to dig up the yard for the new cables it requires. The WiFi I'll have to investigate further. It's a small operation; the installer comes from 150 miles away. I'm not in all that big a hurry anyway. I only got into this broadband stuff (beginning with the DW3000) because I needed performance somewhere between dial-up and basic Home Plan. I've been able to work right through the "throttle."]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20451884 Thu, 08 May 2008 14:02:52 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20451654 Jack_in_VA :
said by MMS747 :

As for those who think this topic is a totally useless pursuit, well, as recently as 5/2 I couldn't agree with you more. I'm not a disgruntled Hughes customer. I have been with them since 2002 and remain with them even though cable and WiFi are now available. I also believe that some form of "traffic shaping" is necessary for ISPs to manage their networks.
Wow! That's unbelievable. I dumped HN for SMBB and have never been happier. I can not see any conceivable reason if I had available cable not to jump on it.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20451654 Thu, 08 May 2008 13:16:45 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20451549 anon : As for those who think this topic is a totally useless pursuit, well, as recently as 5/2 I couldn't agree with you more. I'm not a disgruntled Hughes customer. I have been with them since 2002 and remain with them even though cable and WiFi are now available. I also believe that some form of "traffic shaping" is necessary for ISPs to manage their networks.

My words on 5/2: "As for "technical analysis," what analysis is needed? It's pretty much open and shut. At 4PM, boom, speeds drop through the floor, and at 12AM, whoosh, they shoot back to normal." (Yes, Greg, I left out the goldfish part.)

To which Greg replied: "Sad. Not you specifically, but I'm associating your attitude with an alarming trend. Instant gratification seems to be overtaking the desire to actually know WHY something happens. Sure hope it becomes the exception rather than the rule."]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20451549 Thu, 08 May 2008 12:59:10 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20451444 anon : Once again, I stress that these are Hughes practices IN OTHER PARTS OF THE WORLD. No one should interpret this to mean that this is what is happening here. The US has different laws, and has a different philosophy and approach to free Internet access. The excerpts from Hughes Europe are presented only to show what ISPs are CAPABLE of doing to efficiently manage their networks.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20451444 Thu, 08 May 2008 12:40:59 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20451340 Aframe :
said by MMS747 :

Sorry, y'all. I forgot that my user page was modified some time ago by a user script. If I turn off the script, my page looks like yours. :p
OK...Just thought you had found something new that gave some USEFUL information. ;)
Thanks]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20451340 Thu, 08 May 2008 12:24:43 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20451310 anon : Sorry, y'all. I forgot that my user page was modified some time ago by a user script. If I turn off the script, my page looks like yours. :p]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20451310 Thu, 08 May 2008 12:19:11 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20450931 Aframe :
said by slaver See Profile :

Customer care page, useage, choose my modem, and put in mysite id
That is where I go to find the usage information, however, I was wanting to know where the OP was seeing the amount left information instead of the mins used that I see on mine. Don't know what system he is using, or where he is located for that matter. A 9000 might access different information.
Frank
--
HN7000s/.98m/2w,Sm office,Horizon 1,127west,1110,version5.6.1.19,XP Pro,Linksys WRT150N]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20450931 Thu, 08 May 2008 11:10:29 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20450809 slaver : Customer care page, useage, choose my modem, and put in mysite id]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20450809 Thu, 08 May 2008 10:43:06 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20450582 Aframe :
said by MMS747 :

The data on your page is organized differently from what I'm used to seeing on my Home Plan FAP page,
(On my usage page, the numbers beginning after the times are Download(MB) / Remaining / Upload(MB))

04/06/2008 12:00 13:00 0.58 199.3 No 0.11
04/06/2008 17:00 18:00 15.99 183.8 No 0.19
04/06/2008 18:00 19:00 129.37 61.7 No 1.04

Where are you seeing the usage information in this format?
FAP page?
My usage page displays in the same format as the OP.
Frank
--
HN7000s/.98m/2w,Sm office,Horizon 1,127west,1110,version5.6.1.19,XP Pro,Linksys WRT150N]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20450582 Thu, 08 May 2008 09:55:34 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20450217 slaver : Date Time From Time To Min Used Download In MB Subject To FAP* Upload In MB

05/06/2008 3:00 04:00 28 0.00 ** 0.00
05/06/2008 4:00 05:00 19 0.00 ** 0.00
05/06/2008 5:00 06:00 24 0.00 ** 0.00
05/06/2008 7:00 08:00 30 6.80 No 0.27
05/06/2008 13:00 14:00 46 7.97 No 0.65
05/06/2008 14:00 15:00 60 10.87 No 0.87
05/06/2008 15:00 16:00 59 10.54 No 2.18
05/06/2008 16:00 17:00 38 3.84 No 0.34
05/06/2008 17:00 18:00 35 0.86 No 0.17
05/06/2008 18:00 19:00 30 1.04 No 0.04
05/06/2008 19:00 20:00 56 12.19 No 0.69
05/06/2008 20:00 21:00 55 8.17 No 1.61
05/06/2008 21:00 22:00 59 21.51 No 19.80
05/06/2008 22:00 23:00 60 19.60 No 18.64
05/06/2008 23:00 00:00 60 12.18 No 5.45
05/07/2008 0:00 01:00 58 23.91 No 3.46
05/07/2008 1:00 02:00 59 103.62 No 0.47
05/07/2008 2:00 03:00 33 24.40 No 0.18
05/07/2008 3:00 04:00 30 0.00 ** 0.00
05/07/2008 4:00 05:00 37 0.01 ** 0.01
05/07/2008 5:00 06:00 37 0.00 ** 0.00
05/07/2008 13:00 14:00 48 1.11 No 0.32
05/07/2008 14:00 15:00 59 10.60 No 0.92
05/07/2008 15:00 16:00 51 14.94 No 2.26
05/07/2008 16:00 17:00 43 1.78 No 0.45
05/07/2008 17:00 18:00 47 1.23 No 0.04
05/07/2008 18:00 19:00 38 0.97 No 0.01
05/07/2008 19:00 20:00 41 1.79 No 0.17
05/07/2008 20:00 21:00 58 6.04 No 0.36
05/07/2008 21:00 22:00 59 6.92 No 17.72
05/07/2008 22:00 23:00 60 8.41 No 15.07
05/07/2008 23:00 00:00 60 2.44 No 0.52
05/08/2008 0:00 01:00 60 7.79 No 3.32
05/08/2008 3:00 04:00 34 0.14 ** 0.01
05/08/2008 4:00 05:00 33 0.02 ** 0.00
05/08/2008 5:00 06:00 36 0.03 ** 0.00 ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20450217 Thu, 08 May 2008 08:17:42 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20450137 grohgreg :
said by RandyB21 :

Greg, see patent titled "Method and system for providing committed information rate (CIR) based fair access policy" to Hughes Electronics Corp. 7/28/05
Standard flow control and FAP stuff, did you actually read it? A brief scan reveals nothing obviously related to this "4-12" thing. If you have a specific point, please make it.

//greg//
--
HN7000S/74cm/1w/ProPlus - G16/1250H/Germantown - NAT 66.82.187.152/Gateway 66.82.25.10/DNS 66.82.4.12 and 66.82.4.8 - Firefox 3 - AVG+Firewall v7.5]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20450137 Thu, 08 May 2008 07:37:49 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20450097 grohgreg :
said by MMS747 :

I'm not sure what the whole numbers are just to the right of your times
It is the # of minutes during that particular hour that his modem was connected to his gateway server. Can be a handy tool to help customers realize if/when they are infected with some forms of malware (or an unauthorized wireless LAN user).

I don't recall seeing that "Remaining" column before though. Given that the usage report is historical (as opposed to real-time), I can't see much use in IT either. I mean, what good does it do to learn that you had "61.7M remaining" - two hours after you're FAP'd? Or is your version of the usage report actually posted in real time now?

I have two more suggestions; first (and again) forget what you're reading on those non-US Hughes sites. It will only confuse you and most of the North American folk that read what you copy and paste. Second, shift your emphasis from trying to analyze raw usage - to protocols. If you're looking for a trigger, it will be forever hidden within raw totals. Your modem collects raw statistics on bytes collected broken down by VPN, TCP, UDP, ICMP, Web, IGMP, IKE, IPSec, and others. Packet dump capability is indicated for packet dumps of Non-IP, ICMP, TCP, PBP, UDP, Unicase, RTP Ucast, Other Ucast, Multicast, Unknown Prot, and others. This is the kinda stuff that might better point towards your particular trigger.

//greg//
--
HN7000S/74cm/1w/ProPlus - G16/1250H/Germantown - NAT 66.82.187.152/Gateway 66.82.25.10/DNS 66.82.4.12 and 66.82.4.8 - Firefox 3 - AVG+Firewall v7.5]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20450097 Thu, 08 May 2008 07:15:02 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20449906 anon : The data on your page is organized differently from what I'm used to seeing on my Home Plan FAP page, but if the numbers to the left of the **/NO are Download (MB) and the numbers to the right are Upload (MB), then for this brief clip your usage looks normal to me. I'm not sure what the whole numbers are just to the right of your times, since they don't correspond to any values I have on my usage page.

From my usage page in early April, here is what I think an obvious trigger might look like:

(On my usage page, the numbers beginning after the times are Download(MB) / Remaining / Upload(MB))

04/06/2008 12:00 13:00 0.58 199.3 No 0.11
04/06/2008 17:00 18:00 15.99 183.8 No 0.19
04/06/2008 18:00 19:00 129.37 61.7 No 1.04

Note that the 129.37 is downloaded in 1 hour!

I'm not sure what something like this might do:

04/03/2008 17:00 18:00 5.16 194.8 No 0.04
04/03/2008 22:00 23:00 66.99 132.8 No 0.23
04/03/2008 23:00 00:00 50.44 90.5 No 0.14 ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20449906 Thu, 08 May 2008 03:51:18 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20449570 slaver : is this excessive

05/07/2008 3:00 04:00 30 0.00 ** 0.00
05/07/2008 4:00 05:00 37 0.01 ** 0.01
05/07/2008 5:00 06:00 37 0.00 ** 0.00
05/07/2008 13:00 14:00 48 1.11 No 0.32
05/07/2008 14:00 15:00 59 10.60 No 0.92
05/07/2008 15:00 16:00 51 14.94 No 2.26
05/07/2008 16:00 17:00 43 1.78 No 0.45
05/07/2008 17:00 18:00 47 1.23 No 0.04
05/07/2008 18:00 19:00 38 0.97 No 0.01
05/07/2008 19:00 20:00 41 1.79 No 0.17
05/07/2008 20:00 21:00 58 6.04 No 0.36
05/07/2008 21:00 22:00 59 6.92 No 17.72
05/07/2008 22:00 23:00 60 8.41 No 15.07 ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20449570 Thu, 08 May 2008 00:58:21 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20449297 anon : Greg, see patent titled "Method and system for providing committed information rate (CIR) based fair access policy" to Hughes Electronics Corp. 7/28/05]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20449297 Thu, 08 May 2008 00:18:31 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20449190 anon : More about FAP in Europe:

To ensure equal Internet access for all HughesNet subscribers, Hughes Europe maintains a running average Fair Access Policy (FAP).

Fair Access establishes an equitable balance in Internet access across satellite broadband services by service plan for all HughesNet customers regardless of their frequency of use or volume of traffic. To ensure this equity, customers may experience some temporary throughput limitations. This policy applies to all service plans. As all plans are unlimited, we never stop downloading.

HughesNet system usage data indicates that approximately 5% of subscribers are responsible for a disproportionate share - often as much as half - of the total HughesNet service traffic. Unfortunately, many of those subscribers are not using HughesNet for its intended purpose. To ensure that all HughesNet subscribers have fair and equal access to the benefits of the Satellite broadband service, HughesNet has enacted a Fair Access Policy to prevent consistent abusive consumption of bandwidth by a handful of users.

FAP is straightforward: based on an analysis of usage data, Hughes has established a HughesNet usage threshold well above the maximum typical usage rates. When a customer exhibits patterns of system usage which exceed that threshold for an extended period of time, FAP may temporarily limit that subscriber's throughput to ensure the integrity of the system for all HughesNet subscribers. Typically, the restrictions will be lifted if the customer's usage in a given period stays below the FAP threshold. A secure online portal designed to support customers of authorised VARs and Dealers with near real time information on a given site connection is available.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20449190 Thu, 08 May 2008 00:17:20 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20449163 anon : Remember this is FAP in Europe only:

There are many levels of FAP graduating from a slight slowness (soft throttle) to the cut-off at which connectivity is less than the normal dial-up.

There are three important values that should be considered:
1) the cumulative download amount
2) the throttle limit (threshold)
3) the recovery rate

When cumulative download amount exceeds the throttle threshold, tangible slowness will be noticed, this slowness will increase while the user keeps consuming more bandwidth, until he reaches the cut-off level. Here the recovery rate will act in a specified method to add some kilobits to the speed depending on the customer's package.

Note1: Subscribers are likely to avoid the limitations imposed by the FAP if their use is typical of the majority of Internet users, and consists of Web surfing and a reasonable amount of downloading. Also try to avoid continuous or downloading during peak hours. We recommend you strongly use one of the bandwidth management software or hardware such as: D-Link DFL-700 (not available in Wafa) or D-LinkNet Defend

Note2: An hour of surfing can generate 1-10 MB of download activity depending on the content being surfed

Note3: All what we mentioned above about downloads apply also for uploads.

Last updated by Mohnnad (Wafa): October 2006]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20449163 Thu, 08 May 2008 00:16:32 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20449410 slaver : And they deny doing anything!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20449410 Thu, 08 May 2008 00:10:54 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20449394 slaver : heres mine i have made a log

May 8th, 12:02AM - 955/143 kbps
May 7th, 11:56PM - 91/30 kbps

May 7th, 04:01PM - 83/29 kbps
May 7th, 03:57PM - 1227/194 kbps

May 7th, 12:01AM - 1395/196 kbps
May 6th, 11:56PM - 92/30 kbps

May 6th, 04:01PM - 79/31 kbps
May 6th, 03:58PM - 1276/196 kbps

May 6th, 12:01AM - 1210/194 kbps
May 5th, 11:57PM - 78/42 kbps

From April 28 above 1000 download and above 160 upload for exactly 7 days then reverted back on 5/5/2008

April 28th, 12:01AM - 1151/141 kbps
April 27th, 11:58PM - 44/38 kbps

April 27th, 12:02AM - 1067/193 kbps
April 26th, 11:59PM - 53/34 kbps

April 26th, 12:01AM - 1206/192 kbps
April 25th, 11:57PM - 42/27 kbps

April 25th, 04:01PM - 80/31 kbps
April 25th, 03:58PM - 1026/193 kbps

April 25th, 12:01AM - 951/146 kbps
April 24th, 11:57PM - 46/36 kbps

April 24th, 04:01PM - 81/39 kbps
April 24th, 03:58PM - 1011/194 kbps

April 24th, 12:01AM - 931/184 kbps
April 23rd, 11:58PM - 41/64 kbps

April 23rd, 04:02PM - 53/33 kbps
April 23rd, 03:57PM - 1028/193 kbps

April 23rd, 12:02AM - 821/189 kbps
April 22nd, 11:59PM - 42/36 kbps

April 22nd, 12:02AM - 649/149 kbps
April 21st, 11:57PM - 80/46 kbps

April 21st, 12:12AM - 987/187 kbps
April 20th, 11:06PM - 29/35 kbps]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20449394 Thu, 08 May 2008 00:07:53 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20449386 Aframe : Here are the tests I ran today. Not a real pattern here but certainly not consistant for what ever reason. :(

May 8th, 12:01AM - 534/142 kbps
May 7th, 11:57PM - 525/197 kbps
May 7th, 11:41PM - 449/35 kbps
May 7th, 07:54PM - 536/112 kbps
May 7th, 07:47PM - 526/26 kbps
May 7th, 09:38AM - 1105/276 kbps

Frank
--
HN7000s/.98m/2w,Sm office,Horizon 1,127west,1110,version5.6.1.19,XP Pro,Linksys WRT150N]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20449386 Thu, 08 May 2008 00:06:06 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20449384 slaver : I may be a hillbilly and not very smart but i recognize the obvious]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20449384 Thu, 08 May 2008 00:06:03 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20449380 slaver : Hughes denies they are doing anything then they proceed to read the "no speed gurantee and the peak hour performance bs"

May 8th, 12:02AM - 955/143 kbps
May 7th, 11:56PM - 91/30 kbps]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20449380 Thu, 08 May 2008 00:04:23 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20449321 slaver : Ill post my 11.57 12.01 speeds here in a few minutes]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20449321 Wed, 07 May 2008 23:51:49 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20449310 Aframe :
said by slaver See Profile :

aframe i see you have small office plan so how slow does it go when throttled?
I am not seeing the drop in speed that some of you are. Afternoon and evenings it drops to 400 down and a 100 or less up but not at a regular time interval. I have concluded that mine is caused by overcrowding on the gateway.
Frank
--
HN7000s/.98m/2w,Sm office,Horizon 1,127west,1110,version5.6.1.19,XP Pro,Linksys WRT150N]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20449310 Wed, 07 May 2008 23:49:55 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20449271 slaver : aframe i see you have small office plan so how slow does it go when throttled?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20449271 Wed, 07 May 2008 23:40:53 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20449176 grohgreg : Yes. I'm sure. Advertised speed is nothing more than a number that is averaged over time. Satellite transmissions burst with speeds FAR in excess of the plan max. I've seen bursts of over 6 mbps, although that was back in the DW4000 days. But when you factor in the idle time BETWEEN bursts, the speed over time is supposed to average out to roughly the number stated in your rate plan.

The graphic I uploaded is of my throughput monitor displaying a real-time view of a 15MB file download. Note that the current burst is a mere 323k, but during the last 30 seconds it had burst as high as 2.8mb. But the average is 1.5m which - coincidentally - is what my ProPlus plan is rated to provide (the soft throttle).

Get off those non-US sites. Hughes runs a whole different operation outside North America. All you're doing is confusing yourselves.

//greg//
--
HN7000S/74cm/1w/ProPlus - G16/1250H/Germantown - NAT 66.82.187.152/Gateway 66.82.25.10/DNS 66.82.4.12 and 66.82.4.8 - Firefox 3 - AVG+Firewall v7.5
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20449176 Wed, 07 May 2008 23:23:00 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20449138 anon : Are you sure, Greg? Here's from ServiceSat (Dubai?):

"Hughes FAP has two levels of throttling. Once you reach the first level of data volume it applies a "soft" throttle that restricts you to half of your burst speed. Should the continuous download be sustained the system enters a "hard" throttle state where you are restricted to less than 64Kbps."

----Or is burst speed twice our service level?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20449138 Wed, 07 May 2008 23:15:49 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20449133 MonstaDriva : Keep up the good work . We do know there's somthing sinister lurking here .We just have to find out what and err who .]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20449133 Wed, 07 May 2008 23:13:04 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20449099 anon : You are right. Please nobody think I am trying to suggest anything underhanded on the part of Hughes. I'm just trying to find some explanations for what we're seeing.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20449099 Wed, 07 May 2008 23:08:34 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20449097 slaver : Ive seen that but the only time mine reads high is why I am on the slow down. Rest of time it does not]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20449097 Wed, 07 May 2008 23:08:15 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20449084 Aframe :
said by slaver See Profile :

I am on pro plus please explain what heavy use would be I use an average of 175 out of 425 per day.
I would really like to know what heavy use is also. On the botton of the hourly history page It flags activity as idle,typical or high so it is being montored. I just have no idea as to what is done with the info.
--
HN7000s/.98m/2w,Sm office,Horizon 1,127west,1110,version5.6.1.19,XP Pro,Linksys WRT150N]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20449084 Wed, 07 May 2008 23:06:29 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20449081 anon : I'm not sure Slaver. We're all trying to figure that out. I'm on Home Plan and my total use has been pretty low too. I'll try to find out what Hughes Europe does. That might give some clues.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20449081 Wed, 07 May 2008 23:05:30 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20449058 grohgreg :
said by MMS747 :

Maybe the "SOFT THROTTLE" is something started overseas and is now being tried here? Have we been soft throttled?
Once again, you simply don't understand what you're reading. What's described is a normal function of a normal connection. Soft throttle is how the top speeds of the respective rate plans are controlled; 700k Home, 1000 Pro, 1500 ProPlus, et cetera. Hard throttle, that's the FAP. Nothing mysterious, nothing sinister.

//greg//
--
HN7000S/74cm/1w/ProPlus - G16/1250H/Germantown - NAT 66.82.187.152/Gateway 66.82.25.10/DNS 66.82.4.12 and 66.82.4.8 - Firefox 3 - AVG+Firewall v7.5]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20449058 Wed, 07 May 2008 23:03:28 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20449027 slaver : I am on pro plus please explain what heavy use would be I use an average of 175 out of 425 per day.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20449027 Wed, 07 May 2008 23:00:10 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20449011 Aframe :
said by slaver See Profile :

But why does it run from 4 - 12 if that info effects us?
One possibility could be to encourage heavy use at other than "prime time".
--
HN7000s/.98m/2w,Sm office,Horizon 1,127west,1110,version5.6.1.19,XP Pro,Linksys WRT150N]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20449011 Wed, 07 May 2008 22:57:12 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20448962 slaver : But why does it run from 4 - 12 if that info effects us?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20448962 Wed, 07 May 2008 22:50:47 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20448886 anon : Got this interesting info from a Bluestar site:

"HughesNet's sophisticated Fair Access Policy (FAP) operates in real time. The system is designed to penalise sites that consistently download large amounts of data over prolonged periods of time - such as video streaming or peer to peer applications.

There are two levels of FAP that can be applied. The first is known as a "soft throttle" and sets a limit on your maximum download speed. The second, or "hard throttle", restricts the offending site to less than 64kbps. Once FAP is applied to a particular site it can take several hours for the FAP to be lifted. Customers on higher service plans will be able to use the service more heavily without running the risk of being subjected to FAP. In the same way, higher service plans will have the FAP lifted at a quicker rate than sites on , say, the basic home level package."

--- No copyright date on the page, but it lists service plans for the DW4020, DW6000, DW7000 and HN7000S models (in euros). Bluestar is an authorized VAR for Hughes products in Europe and the Middle East. Maybe the "SOFT THROTTLE" is something started overseas and is now being tried here? Have we been soft throttled?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20448886 Wed, 07 May 2008 22:39:20 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20447628 MichaelRS : I am still throttled and I have not used p2p or any other of the possibly objectional stuff.

Just got another call into the ECC, they give me the same dance as always, with "special phone" and "PIN", but need to "investigate".

I am still trying to uncover their pattern here. So apparently some users got throttled and then they remove the throttle. I am willing to believe it is a subset, but defined by what parameter. We have now seen it on and off and so likely it is some automtatic mechanism that kicks in for some users and not all (even on the transponder/gateway basis as the data is a bit scattered.

Could it be that they have indeed implemented in Mar/Apr a throttle mechanism that is not very proper programmed and through "investigation", they clean up errors in flagging the wrong users ?

Of course ECC was very forthcoming to provide as first solution cancellation and refund, even equipment. If they don't get it backed I am likely to take that and get T-1.
--
HN7000S - Satmex 6 - 1210 - 0.98m / 2W dish - HughesNet ProPlus]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20447628 Wed, 07 May 2008 18:37:15 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20445919 anon : As for K1DEU's theory about Hughes needing to throttle usage in order to deploy SpaceWay, he may be partly right. What if it's cash they need, not bandwidth per se?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20445919 Wed, 07 May 2008 13:38:03 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20445809 anon : Here's another thing (among many) I don't get. Here is a sample of my speeds without throttling:

May 7th, 01:00PM - 749/124 kbps
May 7th, 01:33AM - 755/125 kbps
May 6th, 10:02PM - 695/111 kbps
May 6th, 04:18PM - 747/112 kbps
May 5th, 10:10PM - 673/120 kbps
May 5th, 08:12PM - 682/119 kbps
May 4th, 11:13PM - 683/123 kbps
May 4th, 06:57PM - 691/123 kbps
May 4th, 05:18PM - 706/118 kbps
May 3rd, 11:14PM - 692/123 kbps
May 3rd, 03:09PM - 704/123 kbps
May 2nd, 11:05PM - 682/123 kbps
May 2nd, 03:51PM - 703/123 kbps
May 1st, 11:43PM - 678/123 kbps
April 30th, 11:01PM - 681/122 kbps
April 30th, 07:18PM - 675/64 kbps
April 30th, 12:16AM - 680/123 kbps
April 29th, 11:10PM - 657/122 kbps
April 29th, 07:21PM - 656/114 kbps
April 29th, 03:11AM - 690/123 kbps
April 29th, 12:04AM - 692/123 kbps
April 28th, 11:42PM - 673/122 kbps
April 28th, 10:27PM - 650/121 kbps
February 22nd, 02:26AM - 699/123 kbps
February 20th, 01:08PM - 612/123 kbps
February 6th, 02:07AM - 711/123 kbps
January 30th, 01:21PM - 700/113 kbps

On my sat and gateway, I see little evidence of serious traffic congestion, although I have been throttled on and off since at least New Year's. Is there really a big congestion problem, or are they squeezing out more bandwidth to sell to new customers?

Home Plan, 117W, 1090MHz, Router Address: 66.82.156.169]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20445809 Wed, 07 May 2008 13:22:19 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20445324 anon : At least for now. I want to see if using less bandwidth has any effect, or if throttling is in any way random. Some users report throttling despite low use. The moment I get throttled, my little experiment is over. (I prefer the analogy of the fast car in the garage. :D)

Seriously though, if Hughes is so concerned about bandwidth, why do they offer up to 1.5Mbps? (Rhetorical question)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20445324 Wed, 07 May 2008 11:58:41 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20444348 MonstaDriva :
said by MMS747 :

May 5th, 10:10PM - 673/120 kbps

I'm still good. My experiment continues. Starting April 10th, I avoid the 4-12 zone like the plague, stream video at low to medium quality, and don't used the FAP FREE much. (Hughes Motto: We can sell you up to 1.5Mbps, but for heaven's sake don't use it.)

Home Plan, 117W, 1090MHz, Router Address: 66.82.156.169
I think I got it now . Its kinda like potty training . Hughes sells you the service then kinda like potty trains you not to use it , right ?

Well I should say trains you to use it like they want you to use it which is very little .]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20444348 Wed, 07 May 2008 08:37:32 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20443533 MichaelRS : slaver, I did a WB run early last year and ended up with a mess they (WB) were not able to fix. Essentially the same traffic shaping problem we have at HN, without them shaping it, just simply overloaded on the spot I was assigned to. WB at the time used ka-Band in spots. Those spots are equally distributed over the map of North-America, unlike the population, which tends to aggregate in certain areas, called cities.
What had happened, was that the early adopters of WB sat at the perimeter of urbanization in the large population clusters and ended up filling those spots quickly, especially the CA bound spot 21. WB therefore had loaded their best spots with customers, weren't able to penetrate the population-wise void spaces (ie the prairie) and so got stuck while they were trying to bring up another bird. Kind of funny when you think that through. But reality is that they must have been badly hurting not being able to penetrate the market where the market was (ie Calif.) due to limitation through their spot technology while facing to pony up the interest on the debt for their lease and new bird.
So you may want to research which spot they have looking at you and what other dense areas are on the same spot. While Calif was bombed on WB, WY, SD, ND had no problem at all.
Spaceway III is using by the way the same spot technology concept for ka-band. Again, this is not a technical issue, but a reality of how the spots match population and the demand site. So it is more business than technical.
--
HN7000S - Satmex 6 - 1210 - 0.98m / 2W dish - HughesNet ProPlus]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20443533 Wed, 07 May 2008 01:16:46 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20443289 slaver : Like clock work

Test History for Site ID: '3Fxxxxxx'

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
May 7th, 12:01AM - 1395/196 kbps
May 6th, 11:56PM - 92/30 kbps]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20443289 Wed, 07 May 2008 00:03:31 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20441656 grohgreg :
said by MMS747 :

Interesting theory about their needing bandwidth for SpaceWay deployment.
Unfortunately it's a completely unfounded theory. Spaceway III is a Ka-band satellite. They launched it to INCREASE available customer bandwidth, over and above what they now have on their leased KU-bandwidth. And since it involves a completely new Ka-band earth terminal, it should be a given that the back end bandwidth (internet access) increased proportionately as well.

//greg//
--
HN7000S/74cm/1w/ProPlus - G16/1250H/Germantown - NAT 66.82.187.152/Gateway 66.82.25.10/DNS 66.82.4.12 and 66.82.4.8 - Firefox - AVG+Firewall v7.5]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20441656 Tue, 06 May 2008 18:27:59 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20441120 anon : K1DEU: I was a year old when Sputnik was launched. Interesting theory about their needing bandwidth for SpaceWay deployment. You do understand, however, that I've got a whole drawer full of theories I've collected in here. If that's what's going on, would it kill Hughes to give us a heads-up email? (They've sent me emails about their email service, which I haven't used since 2003.) The way they act, you'd think Howard was still alive.

You're a very patient man, in your own way. I would rather wait four months than spend four hours on the phone with Hughes. My patience moves in other ways.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20441120 Tue, 06 May 2008 16:46:15 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20440425 K1DEU : Greg; Dunno. ask the chief. I am not a native American!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20440425 Tue, 06 May 2008 14:46:27 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20440386 grohgreg :
said by K1DEU See Profile :

Its rough but they needed extra bandwith for their SpaceWay deployment.
did they try to sell you the Brooklyn Bridge during that conversation as well?

//greg//
--
HN7000S/74cm/1w/ProPlus - G16/1250H/Germantown - NAT 66.82.187.152/Gateway 66.82.25.10/DNS 66.82.4.12 and 66.82.4.8 - Firefox - AVG+Firewall v7.5]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20440386 Tue, 06 May 2008 14:40:04 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20440093 K1DEU : My 4-12 PM Traffic shaping was turned off some time ago after spending almost 4 patient hours on the phone to Hughes. They re-booted my modem remotely and there was no transponder or gateway change. Its rough but they needed extra bandwith for their SpaceWay deployment.

Not that I know anything but many of my friends and I do collectively.

My satellite experience started listening to Sputnik around 1957 just on the side of WWV 20 MHz at home in Williamstown, Mass. with my Hallicrafters S-85.

I later experienced and monitored/tested our Secret DSCS satellite in 1966 serving our Military communications between DCS Petagon/California to the Phillippines to Vietnam when serving in a Air Force Comm unit in the PI.

Yes, Geosynchronous 73, John K1DEU in 57 and now
--
HN7000s Small Off |.98 | 2watt | house wall mount| G16 V-TX| 1210 |RSS 94 |Ubuntu 7.10 OS|www.spiritualpeaceproject.com]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20440093 Tue, 06 May 2008 13:56:00 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20439755 InTheSticks :
said by MMS747 :

They "fixed" a bunch of them on that date (Monday).
MM - April 23 was when I noticed my speeds going back up too]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20439755 Tue, 06 May 2008 12:44:23 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20438023 anon : I hear you. This is a strange business we're dealing with here. And we thought used car salesmen were bad (just a joke, no letters from used car salesmen please). Good luck with that and keep us posted.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20438023 Tue, 06 May 2008 01:31:15 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20437987 slaver : Without being to bold I am not willing to submit, I've always lived in an area where everything is'nt handy but other than this if one is willing to pay one has always been able to get. I think I will go more "force their hand" avenue 1st.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20437987 Tue, 06 May 2008 01:20:59 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20437972 anon : My method might seem a bit like buying a fast car only to keep it in the garage. But at least it's still there when I need it. (Besides, if my little experiment works, it might tell a lot about what's going on.) The people who are hardest hit by all this would be those who are only able to use their connection during the 4-12 peak hours. I hope Hughes takes this into account when they throttle someone.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20437972 Tue, 06 May 2008 01:15:40 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20437923 anon : You could try my experimental route, or try calling them again. I know that if you present a case carefully, you can sometimes get them to budge. When I was forced to upgrade from DW4000 to HN7000S, they wanted a new commitment to a service contract (what was it, I forget, 2 years?). I told them I had no problem with the $25 shipping, but a big problem with the contract requirement. I mentioned the fact that their literature stated they were still committed to the DW4000 (hinting without overtly stating this might be false advertising). She put me on hold for a moment (to talk to a supervisor?) and when she came back, agreed to send me the new modem for just $25 shipping and no new contract requirement. I tell you this not to toot my own horn but just as an example of a call.

But calling them and having the throttle removed I suspect would only be a temporary fix. It would only get you off the throttle quicker. (I had to wait a couple of weeks for mine to come off automatically). After that, you might have to apply something along the lines of "my experiment" to keep yourself from getting flagged again. This would be tough to do if you can't work around the 4-12 zone.

Mind you, all of this is only my theory of what is happening to trigger the 4-12 throttle. Other factors entirely might be at work here. For all I know my little experiment might flop tomorrow.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20437923 Tue, 06 May 2008 01:02:36 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20437869 slaver : 1 last chance for them to fix then to wildblue, what about you, what would you do?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20437869 Tue, 06 May 2008 00:46:39 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20437828 anon : That's for sure. What are you going to do?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20437828 Tue, 06 May 2008 00:30:19 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20437728 slaver : OK back on 4-12 cycle for sure check it out

May 6th, 12:01AM - 1210/194 kbps
May 5th, 11:57PM - 78/42 kbps]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20437728 Tue, 06 May 2008 00:03:37 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20437344 anon : They "fixed" a bunch of them on that date (Monday).]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20437344 Mon, 05 May 2008 22:40:10 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20437300 slaver : Isnt it odd they fixed youres the same day as mine?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20437300 Mon, 05 May 2008 22:32:42 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20437280 slaver : I dont use fap free time at all, and i use not even 1/2 of plan useage per day, it worked so excellent for 7 days I didnt go on line until 8 this evening so I dont know if it is still the 4 - 12 issus but I shall find out at 12>01 this evening/morning.i ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20437280 Mon, 05 May 2008 22:29:33 EDT Re: [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20437258 anon : May 5th, 10:10PM - 673/120 kbps
May 5th, 08:12PM - 682/119 kbps
May 4th, 06:57PM - 691/123 kbps
May 4th, 05:18PM - 706/118 kbps
May 3rd, 11:14PM - 692/123 kbps
May 3rd, 03:09PM - 704/123 kbps
May 2nd, 11:05PM - 682/123 kbps
May 1st, 11:43PM - 678/123 kbps
April 30th, 07:18PM - 675/64 kbps
April 29th, 07:21PM - 656/114 kbps
AApril 28th, 10:27PM - 650/121 kbps
April 23rd, 11:18PM - 78/54 kbps
April 20th, 11:17PM - 80/59 kbps
April 17th, 10:41PM - 76/38 kbps
April 16th, 10:14PM - 82/120 kbps
April 15th, 10:25PM - 69/41 kbps
April 14th, 11:01PM - 80/69 kbps

I'm still good. My experiment continues. Starting April 10th, I avoid the 4-12 zone like the plague, stream video at low to medium quality, and don't used the FAP FREE much. (Hughes Motto: We can sell you up to 1.5Mbps, but for heaven's sake don't use it.)

Home Plan, 117W, 1090MHz, Router Address: 66.82.156.169]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20437258 Mon, 05 May 2008 22:25:56 EDT [HN7000S] Traffic Shaping refer to locked thread 4 - 12 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20436920 slaver : As I suspected the fix wouldnt last. It ran perfectly for 7 days then reared its ugly head again.

May 5th, 08:26PM - 81/42 kbps
May 5th, 08:23PM - 79/57 kbps
May 5th, 08:22PM - 81/32 kbps
May 4th, 10:45PM - 1273/196 kbps
May 4th, 10:43PM - 1252/164 kbps
May 4th, 10:05PM - 1082/194 kbps
May 4th, 09:58PM - 734/185 kbps
May 4th, 06:34PM - 1047/179 kbps
May 4th, 06:32PM - 1056/35 kbps
May 4th, 12:30PM - 896/168 kbps
May 4th, 12:28PM - 864/24 kbps
May 4th, 12:09AM - 1051/157 kbps
May 3rd, 10:42PM - 1266/174 kbps
May 3rd, 10:28PM - 1096/194 kbps
May 3rd, 10:26PM - 938/191 kbps
May 3rd, 02:13AM - 1372/196 kbps
May 2nd, 09:57PM - 1002/192 kbps
May 2nd, 08:39PM - 832/193 kbps
May 1st, 11:31PM - 1244/194 kbps
May 1st, 11:19PM - 1259/156 kbps
May 1st, 09:02PM - 829/153 kbps
April 30th, 10:55PM - 1158/194 kbps
April 30th, 10:19PM - 852/140 kbps
April 30th, 08:35PM - 1059/173 kbps
April 30th, 07:47PM - 1058/167 kbps
April 30th, 01:15PM - 1028/189 kbps
April 30th, 06:16AM - 1188/195 kbps
April 29th, 10:16PM - 1234/187 kbps
April 29th, 09:38PM - 1049/133 kbps
April 29th, 09:04PM - 650/136 kbps
April 29th, 07:54PM - 1161/193 kbps
April 29th, 04:56PM - 1200/166 kbps
April 29th, 03:35PM - 1053/183 kbps
April 29th, 03:26PM - 1180/193 kbps
April 29th, 02:35PM - 643/147 kbps
April 29th, 07:27AM - 1090/186 kbps
April 29th, 12:01AM - 1211/183 kbps
April 28th, 11:55PM - 1258/191 kbps
April 28th, 11:00PM - 1226/173 kbps
April 28th, 09:59PM - 837/187 kbps
April 28th, 08:41PM - 443/142 kbps
April 28th, 07:55PM - 506/107 kbps
April 28th, 06:59PM - 850/154 kbps
April 28th, 04:43PM - 1016/14 kbps
April 28th, 04:41PM - 1033/15 kbps
April 28th, 04:03PM - 18/17 kbps

pro plus plan 74 w 1130]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20436920 Mon, 05 May 2008 21:12:24 EDT