<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>

<rss version="2.0" xmlns:blogChannel="http://backend.userland.com/blogChannelModule">

<channel>
<title>Re: Shocking... in </title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r20445615</link>
<description></description>
<language>en</language>
<pubDate>Thu, 04 Dec 2008 18:09:41 EDT</pubDate>
<lastBuildDate>Thu, 04 Dec 2008 18:09:41 EDT</lastBuildDate>

<item>
<title>Re: Shocking...</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20461167</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/317310"><b>wierdo</b></A> : <div class="bquote"><small>said by  wifi4milez <A HREF="/useremail/u/1054326"><IMG SRC="http://i.dslr.net/bb/profile.gif" ALT="See Profile" BORDER=0 WIDTH=16 HEIGHT=11></A> :</small><br><br><div class="bquote"><small>said by  wierdo <A HREF="/useremail/u/317310"><IMG SRC="http://i.dslr.net/bb/profile.gif" ALT="See Profile" BORDER=0 WIDTH=16 HEIGHT=11></A> :</small><br><br>Very few places (NYC is one of them, what with RCN, the Dolan empire, and Time Warner competing in various combinations around the city, not to mention Verizon) have more than two competitive facilities based providers for residential and small business service.<br> </div>Firstly, RCN and Time Warner dont really compete in NYC. 99% of residential buildings have an agreement with only one, so you cant choose between the two. In fact, I have never once heard of any building being served by both. I would be willing to bet that the majority of residential customers has at minimum two facilities based providers to chose from. Once you move into business however, that dramatically changes. There are a number of facilities based business service providers, and so if you are in a decent sized city you likely have a choice between a few. Some examples are (not including the LEC cable ISP):<br><br>Level 3<br>MCI/Verizon Business<br>Time Warner Telecom<br>XO<br>Cogent<br>Yipes<br>Sprint<br>ATT (CLEC)<br>Keyspan<br>Hudson Valley Data Net (now Lightower)<br><br>These are just those available in my area, there are <b>many</b> more regional and local facilities based players around the country. While I dont disagree that residentail customers do have fewer choices, many businesses do have options depending on where they are located. <br> </div>In your city. In mine, you're still leasing the last mile from the LEC (AT&T). In Tulsa, at least you get a third option, and have about four or five options if you're in the relatively small downtown area. In the rest of town, if you're a business, you do have three choices, AT&T (the LEC), Cox (over HFC, except in rare instances), and EasyTel, a local CLEC.<br><br>And it's not the cable company's fault the building managers are anti-competition. My apartment used to be that way, but about a year ago we finally got the option to use cable. Prior to that it was satellite for TV and DSL. Either that or rabbit ears and dialup. :p<br><small>--<br>It's w<i>ie</i>rdo, not w<i>ei</i>rdo. Yes, I know that's not the 'proper' spelling of the similar english language word. ;)</small>]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20461167</guid>
<pubDate>Sat, 10 May 2008 11:41:38 EDT</pubDate>
</item>

<item>
<title>Re: Shocking...</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20456261</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/1054326"><b>wifi4milez</b></A> : <div class="bquote"><small>said by  wierdo <A HREF="/useremail/u/317310"><IMG SRC="http://i.dslr.net/bb/profile.gif" ALT="See Profile" BORDER=0 WIDTH=16 HEIGHT=11></A> :</small><br><br>Very few places (NYC is one of them, what with RCN, the Dolan empire, and Time Warner competing in various combinations around the city, not to mention Verizon) have more than two competitive facilities based providers for residential and small business service.<br> </div>Firstly, RCN and Time Warner dont really compete in NYC. 99% of residential buildings have an agreement with only one, so you cant choose between the two. In fact, I have never once heard of any building being served by both. I would be willing to bet that the majority of residential customers has at minimum two facilities based providers to chose from. Once you move into business however, that dramatically changes. There are a number of facilities based business service providers, and so if you are in a decent sized city you likely have a choice between a few. Some examples are (not including the LEC cable ISP):<br><br>Level 3<br>MCI/Verizon Business<br>Time Warner Telecom<br>XO<br>Cogent<br>Yipes<br>Sprint<br>ATT (CLEC)<br>Keyspan<br>Hudson Valley Data Net (now Lightower)<br><br>These are just those available in my area, there are <b>many</b> more regional and local facilities based players around the country. While I dont disagree that residentail customers do have fewer choices, many businesses do have options depending on where they are located. <br><small>--<br><b>&#1042;&#1077;&#1089;&#1085;&#1072; &#1087;&#1088;&#1080;&#1073;&#1099;&#1083;&#1072;</b></small>]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20456261</guid>
<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2008 10:47:16 EDT</pubDate>
</item>

<item>
<title>Re: Shocking...</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20454450</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/317310"><b>wierdo</b></A> : <div class="bquote"><small>said by  wifi4milez <A HREF="/useremail/u/1054326"><IMG SRC="http://i.dslr.net/bb/profile.gif" ALT="See Profile" BORDER=0 WIDTH=16 HEIGHT=11></A> :</small><br><br>Fine, but lets be honest; thats a VERY unusual example.<br> </div>Not at all. That's par for the course in most of the country. I'm lucky. If I had a million dollars to give to a provider for construction expense, I could get facilities based service from Alltel, MBO (an LEC in Oklahoma who happens to have some fiber a few miles away), or CenturyTel's LightCore.<br><br>Of course, for residential and small business service, you're stuck with Cox or SBC, unless you're in one of the two business parks that Alltel wired when they were built. So for the vast majority of the population, it's Cox, SBC/AT&T, and the twenty or so independent ISPs that offer service using SBC/AT&T's DSL network, four or five of which are based locally, and a couple more that are based in state. Oh, and depending on where exactly you live between zero and two WISPs, mostly zero. That obviously does not count dial-up ISPs.<br><br>Very few places (NYC is one of them, what with RCN, the Dolan empire, and Time Warner competing in various combinations around the city, not to mention Verizon) have more than two competitive facilities based providers for residential and small business service.<br><small>--<br>It's w<i>ie</i>rdo, not w<i>ei</i>rdo. Yes, I know that's not the 'proper' spelling of the similar english language word. ;)</small>]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20454450</guid>
<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 22:59:56 EDT</pubDate>
</item>

<item>
<title>Re: Shocking...</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20453757</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/1054326"><b>wifi4milez</b></A> : <div class="bquote"><small>said by  marigolds <A HREF="/useremail/u/629959"><IMG SRC="http://i.dslr.net/bb/profile.gif" ALT="See Profile" BORDER=0 WIDTH=16 HEIGHT=11></A> :</small><br><br><div class="bquote"><small>said by  wifi4milez <A HREF="/useremail/u/1054326"><IMG SRC="http://i.dslr.net/bb/profile.gif" ALT="See Profile" BORDER=0 WIDTH=16 HEIGHT=11></A> :</small><br><br>Thats not true at all. Almost all areas are served by both a LEC DSL footprint as well as a cable ISP footprint. NYC is no different than anyplace else, its not like we have any other choices that people elsewhere dont. <br> </div>Okay, I will provide a concrete example.<br>Iowa City, Iowa.<br>One ILEC. One cable provider. Over 180 ISPs.<br>That would be less than 1.5%.<br> </div>Fine, but lets be honest; thats a VERY unusual example.<br><small>--<br><b>&#1042;&#1077;&#1089;&#1085;&#1072; &#1087;&#1088;&#1080;&#1073;&#1099;&#1083;&#1072;</b></small>]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20453757</guid>
<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 20:33:54 EDT</pubDate>
</item>

<item>
<title>Re: Shocking...</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20453242</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/629959"><b>marigolds</b></A> : <div class="bquote"><small>said by  wifi4milez <A HREF="/useremail/u/1054326"><IMG SRC="http://i.dslr.net/bb/profile.gif" ALT="See Profile" BORDER=0 WIDTH=16 HEIGHT=11></A> :</small><br><br>Thats not true at all. Almost all areas are served by both a LEC DSL footprint as well as a cable ISP footprint. NYC is no different than anyplace else, its not like we have any other choices that people elsewhere dont. <br> </div>Okay, I will provide a concrete example.<br>Iowa City, Iowa.<br>One ILEC. One cable provider. Over 180 ISPs.<br>That would be less than 1.5%.<br><small>--<br>ISCABBS - the oldest and largest BBS on the Internet<br>telnet://bbs.iscabbs.com<br>Professional Geographer<br>Geographic Information Science researcher</small>]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20453242</guid>
<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 18:24:14 EDT</pubDate>
</item>

<item>
<title>Re: Shocking...</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20453191</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/1054326"><b>wifi4milez</b></A> : <div class="bquote"><small>said by  wierdo <A HREF="/useremail/u/317310"><IMG SRC="http://i.dslr.net/bb/profile.gif" ALT="See Profile" BORDER=0 WIDTH=16 HEIGHT=11></A> :</small><br><br><div class="bquote"><small>said by  wifi4milez <A HREF="/useremail/u/1054326"><IMG SRC="http://i.dslr.net/bb/profile.gif" ALT="See Profile" BORDER=0 WIDTH=16 HEIGHT=11></A> :</small><br><br><div class="bquote"><small>said by  marigolds <A HREF="/useremail/u/629959"><IMG SRC="http://i.dslr.net/bb/profile.gif" ALT="See Profile" BORDER=0 WIDTH=16 HEIGHT=11></A> :</small><br><br>Not really, because few service providers actually provide their own network, and no network providers have made any money off of their broadband services (they all make their money elsewhere and use internet as a loss leader on those other services).<br> </div>How do you figure that? Verizon uses their own network. ATT uses their own network. Time Warner Cable uses their own network. Comcast uses their own network. Cablevision uses their own network. Many, many other companies also use their own network as well, and thats just on the consumer side. Once you get into business class service, their are a whole host of other facilities based providers in play. <br><br>Lets not forget about the backbone providers like Level 3, Sprint, MCI (uunet), and all the others not mentioned. <br> </div>There aren't that many facilities based providers in most places, especially outside of core downtown areas. NYC is something of an aberration. In the rest of the country, most of the ISPs are stuck using the ILEC's DSL network.<br> </div>Thats not true at all. Almost all areas are served by both a LEC DSL footprint as well as a cable ISP footprint. NYC is no different than anyplace else, its not like we have any other choices that people elsewhere dont. <br><small>--<br><b>&#1042;&#1077;&#1089;&#1085;&#1072; &#1087;&#1088;&#1080;&#1073;&#1099;&#1083;&#1072;</b></small>]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20453191</guid>
<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 18:12:55 EDT</pubDate>
</item>

<item>
<title>Re: Shocking...</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20452334</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/317310"><b>wierdo</b></A> : <div class="bquote"><small>said by  wifi4milez <A HREF="/useremail/u/1054326"><IMG SRC="http://i.dslr.net/bb/profile.gif" ALT="See Profile" BORDER=0 WIDTH=16 HEIGHT=11></A> :</small><br><br><div class="bquote"><small>said by  marigolds <A HREF="/useremail/u/629959"><IMG SRC="http://i.dslr.net/bb/profile.gif" ALT="See Profile" BORDER=0 WIDTH=16 HEIGHT=11></A> :</small><br><br>Not really, because few service providers actually provide their own network, and no network providers have made any money off of their broadband services (they all make their money elsewhere and use internet as a loss leader on those other services).<br> </div>How do you figure that? Verizon uses their own network. ATT uses their own network. Time Warner Cable uses their own network. Comcast uses their own network. Cablevision uses their own network. Many, many other companies also use their own network as well, and thats just on the consumer side. Once you get into business class service, their are a whole host of other facilities based providers in play. <br><br>Lets not forget about the backbone providers like Level 3, Sprint, MCI (uunet), and all the others not mentioned. <br> </div>There aren't that many facilities based providers in most places, especially outside of core downtown areas. NYC is something of an aberration. In the rest of the country, most of the ISPs are stuck using the ILEC's DSL network.<br><small>--<br>It's w<i>ie</i>rdo, not w<i>ei</i>rdo. Yes, I know that's not the 'proper' spelling of the similar english language word. ;)</small>]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20452334</guid>
<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 15:41:00 EDT</pubDate>
</item>

<item>
<title>Re: Shocking...</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20450108</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/629959"><b>marigolds</b></A> : Let me rephrase...<br>relatively few :)<br>Considering the tens of thousands ISPs that exist out there.]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20450108</guid>
<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 07:21:46 EDT</pubDate>
</item>

<item>
<title>Re: Shocking...</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20448242</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/1054326"><b>wifi4milez</b></A> : <div class="bquote"><small>said by  marigolds <A HREF="/useremail/u/629959"><IMG SRC="http://i.dslr.net/bb/profile.gif" ALT="See Profile" BORDER=0 WIDTH=16 HEIGHT=11></A> :</small><br><br>Not really, because few service providers actually provide their own network, and no network providers have made any money off of their broadband services (they all make their money elsewhere and use internet as a loss leader on those other services).<br> </div>How do you figure that? Verizon uses their own network. ATT uses their own network. Time Warner Cable uses their own network. Comcast uses their own network. Cablevision uses their own network. Many, many other companies also use their own network as well, and thats just on the consumer side. Once you get into business class service, their are a whole host of other facilities based providers in play. <br><br>Lets not forget about the backbone providers like Level 3, Sprint, MCI (uunet), and all the others not mentioned. <br><small>--<br><b>&#1042;&#1077;&#1089;&#1085;&#1072; &#1087;&#1088;&#1080;&#1073;&#1099;&#1083;&#1072;</b></small>]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20448242</guid>
<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 20:41:25 EDT</pubDate>
</item>

<item>
<title>Re: Shocking...</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20447604</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/625141"><b>pnh102</b></A> : <div class="bquote"><small>said by  marigolds <A HREF="/useremail/u/629959"><IMG SRC="http://i.dslr.net/bb/profile.gif" ALT="See Profile" BORDER=0 WIDTH=16 HEIGHT=11></A> :</small><br><br>Not really, because few service providers actually provide their own network, and no network providers have made any money off of their broadband services (they all make their money elsewhere and use internet as a loss leader on those other services).<br> </div>If Internet is really a loss leader as you claim (I don't agree) then that's even more of a reason for the government not to get into it.<br><small>--<br>This isn't fair!  I was only supposed to hate just ONE presidential candidate!</small>]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20447604</guid>
<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 18:33:52 EDT</pubDate>
</item>

<item>
<title>Re: Shocking...</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20447121</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/629959"><b>marigolds</b></A> : <div class="bquote"><small>said by  wifi4milez <A HREF="/useremail/u/1054326"><IMG SRC="http://i.dslr.net/bb/profile.gif" ALT="See Profile" BORDER=0 WIDTH=16 HEIGHT=11></A> :</small><br><br><div class="bquote"><small>said by  marigolds <A HREF="/useremail/u/629959"><IMG SRC="http://i.dslr.net/bb/profile.gif" ALT="See Profile" BORDER=0 WIDTH=16 HEIGHT=11></A> :</small><br><br><div class="bquote"><small>said by  pnh102 <A HREF="/useremail/u/625141"><IMG SRC="http://i.dslr.net/bb/profile.gif" ALT="See Profile" BORDER=0 WIDTH=16 HEIGHT=11></A> :</small><br><br>However, in just about every situation, socialist broadband has failed to pay for itself, and requires taxes either be raised, or money redirected from some other government expenditure, say schools or police, to cover the cost.</div>Do you have an example of a commercial broadband system that successfully paid for itself?<br> </div>One could argue that every service provider currently not in bankruptcy has done so. Even those that are in debt can attribute that to growing their existing networks. Bottom line is if they werent profitable, they would all be out of business (or will be).<br> </div>Not really, because few service providers actually provide their own network, and no network providers have made any money off of their broadband services (they all make their money elsewhere and use internet as a loss leader on those other services).<br><small>--<br>ISCABBS - the oldest and largest BBS on the Internet<br>telnet://bbs.iscabbs.com<br>Professional Geographer<br>Geographic Information Science researcher</small>]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20447121</guid>
<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 17:01:37 EDT</pubDate>
</item>

<item>
<title>Re: Shocking...</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20446967</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/1054326"><b>wifi4milez</b></A> : <div class="bquote"><small>said by  marigolds <A HREF="/useremail/u/629959"><IMG SRC="http://i.dslr.net/bb/profile.gif" ALT="See Profile" BORDER=0 WIDTH=16 HEIGHT=11></A> :</small><br><br><div class="bquote"><small>said by  pnh102 <A HREF="/useremail/u/625141"><IMG SRC="http://i.dslr.net/bb/profile.gif" ALT="See Profile" BORDER=0 WIDTH=16 HEIGHT=11></A> :</small><br><br>However, in just about every situation, socialist broadband has failed to pay for itself, and requires taxes either be raised, or money redirected from some other government expenditure, say schools or police, to cover the cost.</div>Do you have an example of a commercial broadband system that successfully paid for itself?<br> </div>One could argue that every service provider currently not in bankruptcy has done so. Even those that are in debt can attribute that to growing their existing networks. Bottom line is if they werent profitable, they would all be out of business (or will be).<br><small>--<br><b>&#1042;&#1077;&#1089;&#1085;&#1072; &#1087;&#1088;&#1080;&#1073;&#1099;&#1083;&#1072;</b></small>]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20446967</guid>
<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 16:37:48 EDT</pubDate>
</item>

<item>
<title>Re: Shocking...</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20446891</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/629959"><b>marigolds</b></A> : <div class="bquote"><small>said by  pnh102 <A HREF="/useremail/u/625141"><IMG SRC="http://i.dslr.net/bb/profile.gif" ALT="See Profile" BORDER=0 WIDTH=16 HEIGHT=11></A> :</small><br><br>However, in just about every situation, socialist broadband has failed to pay for itself, and requires taxes either be raised, or money redirected from some other government expenditure, say schools or police, to cover the cost.</div>Do you have an example of a commercial broadband system that successfully paid for itself?]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20446891</guid>
<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 16:25:04 EDT</pubDate>
</item>

<item>
<title>Re: Shocking...</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20446051</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/129458"><b>KrK</b></A> : It's not socialist broadband, it's modern infrastructure building...  and it needs to be completed and nurtured before the inherent efficiency will kick in.]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20446051</guid>
<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 14:01:39 EDT</pubDate>
</item>

<item>
<title>Re: Shocking...</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20445980</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/625141"><b>pnh102</b></A> : <div class="bquote"><small>said by  KrK <A HREF="/useremail/u/129458"><IMG SRC="http://i.dslr.net/bb/profile.gif" ALT="See Profile" BORDER=0 WIDTH=16 HEIGHT=11></A> :</small><br><br><div class="bquote"><small>said by  pnh102 <A HREF="/useremail/u/625141"><IMG SRC="http://i.dslr.net/bb/profile.gif" ALT="See Profile" BORDER=0 WIDTH=16 HEIGHT=11></A> :</small><br><br>The Interstate highway system in most states is funded by gas taxes, tolls, registration fees and other vehicle-related taxes.</div>Highways and Interstates are also paid from general funds and other tax monies...</div>That only happens when states do not levy enough user fees to cover the costs of the roads.  This isn't in many states though.<br><br>However, in just about every situation, socialist broadband has failed to pay for itself, and requires taxes either be raised, or money redirected from some other government expenditure, say schools or police, to cover the cost.<br><small>--<br>This isn't fair!  I was only supposed to hate just ONE presidential candidate!</small>]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20445980</guid>
<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 13:48:01 EDT</pubDate>
</item>

<item>
<title>Re: Shocking...</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20445654</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/129458"><b>KrK</b></A> : <div class="bquote"><small>said by  pnh102 <A HREF="/useremail/u/625141"><IMG SRC="http://i.dslr.net/bb/profile.gif" ALT="See Profile" BORDER=0 WIDTH=16 HEIGHT=11></A> :</small><br><br>The Interstate highway system in most states is funded by gas taxes, tolls, registration fees and other vehicle-related taxes.</div>Highways and Interstates are also paid from general funds and other tax monies...<br><br>So let me see....<br><br>Government provided services and infrastructure, funded by taxes, IS NOT Socialist.... But Government provided services and infrastructure, funded by taxes, IS Socialist.<br><br>Congratulations.   You just argued yourself into a paradox.<br><br>As for the "User Tax Pays" arguments, when the Interstates were first being built, hardly anyone used them yet, and yet everyone paid, too.  So you just set a prime example of why Utopia should be allowed to grow and mature.<br><small>--<br>"Regulatory capitalism is when companies invest in lawyers, lobbyists, and politicians, instead of plant, people, and customer service." - former FCC Chairman William Kennard (A real FCC Chairman, unlike the current Corporate Spokesperson in the job!)</small>]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20445654</guid>
<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 12:58:28 EDT</pubDate>
</item>

<item>
<title>Re: Shocking...</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20445615</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/129458"><b>KrK</b></A> : <div class="bquote"><small>said by  jester121 <A HREF="/useremail/u/856374"><IMG SRC="http://i.dslr.net/bb/profile.gif" ALT="See Profile" BORDER=0 WIDTH=16 HEIGHT=11></A> :</small><br><br>All your Layer 1 and 2 are belong to us.</div>All your Money Are Belong to Us.<br><br>--- Big Telco & CableCo]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20445615</guid>
<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 12:51:18 EDT</pubDate>
</item>

<item>
<title>Re: Shocking...</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20414034</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/317310"><b>wierdo</b></A> : <div class="bquote"><small>said by  pnh102 <A HREF="/useremail/u/625141"><IMG SRC="http://i.dslr.net/bb/profile.gif" ALT="See Profile" BORDER=0 WIDTH=16 HEIGHT=11></A> :</small><br><br><div class="bquote"><small>said by  wierdo <A HREF="/useremail/u/317310"><IMG SRC="http://i.dslr.net/bb/profile.gif" ALT="See Profile" BORDER=0 WIDTH=16 HEIGHT=11></A> :</small><br><br>It's more like retail electricity deregulation. One company/cooperative/city owns and maintains the wire to your home.</div>And we saw how well that worked out.  Rolling blackouts, skyrocketing rates, no real competition.  Was deregulation ever really a good idea?  I used to think so, now I don't.  Come to think of it, I think there really was nothing wrong with the "old way" of selling power.<br></div>No, we saw what happens when you deregulate wholesale electricity sales and allow certain actors to manipulate the price of energy so that the utilities cannot afford it.<br><br>Retail electricity sales are a completely different thing, and are often controlled by the government or a quasi-governmental authority.<br><br><div class="bquote"><small>said by  pnh102 <A HREF="/useremail/u/625141"><IMG SRC="http://i.dslr.net/bb/profile.gif" ALT="See Profile" BORDER=0 WIDTH=16 HEIGHT=11></A> :</small><br><br>The difference is that in private industry, expansions are done so that the value brought in by new customers exceeds the costs in acquiring them.  That's why private ISPs don't just provide service anywhere.  UTOPIA and other socialist broadband schemes, since they get unlimited taxpayer money, don't have to factor these constraints in.  Because of that, it costs them more money to add each new customer.<br> </div>No, the difference is that in private industry, there aren't a bunch of naysayers going around doomsaying before the project is even finished, or at least not any naysayers who can derail the project. We're not talking about an expansion, as you claim, but finishing the project as originally intended.<br><br>Besides, you seem to think providing everyone within a city with equal access to the network (like they are provided water, electricity, roads, police and fire protection, and so on) is somehow a bad thing. I disagree. Some cross-subsidization is a good thing here, IMO. I do agree that such a network should be self sustaining as far as operating costs go, and preferably make enough to fully cover capital costs.<br><br>I, for one, would be perfectly willing to have my tax dollars go to capital expenditure, even in the absence of any chance of paying it back, again, so long as the opex would be paid for from the network's revenue. It's good for the economy, it's good for the citizens, and it's good for competition. I understand not everybody feels that way, but you ought to at least let them finish building the network before saying it'll never be able to pay for itself. Moreover, you should keep in mind that the main reason they're asking for more money is because of malfeasance on the part of the federal government.<br><small>--<br>It's w<i>ie</i>rdo, not w<i>ei</i>rdo. Yes, I know that's not the 'proper' spelling of the similar english language word. ;)</small>]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20414034</guid>
<pubDate>Wed, 30 Apr 2008 23:23:15 EDT</pubDate>
</item>

<item>
<title>Re: Shocking...</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20413372</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/625141"><b>pnh102</b></A> : <div class="bquote"><small>said by  marigolds <A HREF="/useremail/u/629959"><IMG SRC="http://i.dslr.net/bb/profile.gif" ALT="See Profile" BORDER=0 WIDTH=16 HEIGHT=11></A> :</small><br><br>Utopia is revenue bond funded. That has no impact on taxes.<br>That would seem to be very much like the highway system.<br></div>Even if you were correct in UTOPIA having no impact on taxes (what pays the bondholders, its certainly not revenue from UTOPIA), taxes do indeed fund the highway system, so they are not at all alike.<br><small>--<br>This isn't fair!  I was only supposed to hate just ONE presidential candidate!</small>]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20413372</guid>
<pubDate>Wed, 30 Apr 2008 21:20:49 EDT</pubDate>
</item>

<item>
<title>Re: Shocking...</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20413191</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/629959"><b>marigolds</b></A> : <div class="bquote"><small>said by  pnh102 <A HREF="/useremail/u/625141"><IMG SRC="http://i.dslr.net/bb/profile.gif" ALT="See Profile" BORDER=0 WIDTH=16 HEIGHT=11></A> :</small><br><br><div class="bquote"><small>said by  marigolds <A HREF="/useremail/u/629959"><IMG SRC="http://i.dslr.net/bb/profile.gif" ALT="See Profile" BORDER=0 WIDTH=16 HEIGHT=11></A> :</small><br><br>Like the interstate system.<br> </div>Wrong.  The Interstate highway system in most states is funded by gas taxes, tolls, registration fees and other vehicle-related taxes.  For the most part, only drivers pay these taxes directly.  So much gas tax is collected that a fair amount is actually diverted from roads and into mass transit.<br><br>There is no comparison with UTOPIA, which results in higher taxes for everyone, even those who do not use it.<br> </div>Utopia is revenue bond funded. That has no impact on taxes.<br>That would seem to be very much like the highway system.<br><small>--<br>ISCABBS - the oldest and largest BBS on the Internet<br>telnet://bbs.iscabbs.com<br>Professional Geographer<br>Geographic Information Science researcher</small>]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20413191</guid>
<pubDate>Wed, 30 Apr 2008 20:43:35 EDT</pubDate>
</item>

<item>
<title>Re: Shocking...</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20413095</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/625141"><b>pnh102</b></A> : <div class="bquote"><small>said by  wierdo <A HREF="/useremail/u/317310"><IMG SRC="http://i.dslr.net/bb/profile.gif" ALT="See Profile" BORDER=0 WIDTH=16 HEIGHT=11></A> :</small><br><br>It's more like retail electricity deregulation. One company/cooperative/city owns and maintains the wire to your home.</div>And we saw how well that worked out.  Rolling blackouts, skyrocketing rates, no real competition.  Was deregulation ever really a good idea?  I used to think so, now I don't.  Come to think of it, I think there really was nothing wrong with the "old way" of selling power.<br><div class="bquote"><small>said by  wierdo <A HREF="/useremail/u/317310"><IMG SRC="http://i.dslr.net/bb/profile.gif" ALT="See Profile" BORDER=0 WIDTH=16 HEIGHT=11></A> :</small><br><br>Edited to add: <i>Of course</i> it's costing more to operate than the money it's bringing in. <b><i>It's not finished yet</i></b>. I have yet to come across a project that made money before it was finished, in the corporate or government worlds.</div>The difference is that in private industry, expansions are done so that the value brought in by new customers exceeds the costs in acquiring them.  That's why private ISPs don't just provide service anywhere.  UTOPIA and other socialist broadband schemes, since they get unlimited taxpayer money, don't have to factor these constraints in.  Because of that, it costs them more money to add each new customer.<br><small>--<br>This isn't fair!  I was only supposed to hate just ONE presidential candidate!</small>]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20413095</guid>
<pubDate>Wed, 30 Apr 2008 20:24:40 EDT</pubDate>
</item>

<item>
<title>Re: Shocking...</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20413069</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/625141"><b>pnh102</b></A> : <div class="bquote"><small>said by  marigolds <A HREF="/useremail/u/629959"><IMG SRC="http://i.dslr.net/bb/profile.gif" ALT="See Profile" BORDER=0 WIDTH=16 HEIGHT=11></A> :</small><br><br>Like the interstate system.<br> </div>Wrong.  The Interstate highway system in most states is funded by gas taxes, tolls, registration fees and other vehicle-related taxes.  For the most part, only drivers pay these taxes directly.  So much gas tax is collected that a fair amount is actually diverted from roads and into mass transit.<br><br>There is no comparison with UTOPIA, which results in higher taxes for everyone, even those who do not use it.<br><small>--<br>This isn't fair!  I was only supposed to hate just ONE presidential candidate!</small>]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20413069</guid>
<pubDate>Wed, 30 Apr 2008 20:20:29 EDT</pubDate>
</item>

<item>
<title>Re: Shocking...</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20411463</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/317310"><b>wierdo</b></A> : <div class="bquote"><small>said by  pnh102 <A HREF="/useremail/u/625141"><IMG SRC="http://i.dslr.net/bb/profile.gif" ALT="See Profile" BORDER=0 WIDTH=16 HEIGHT=11></A> :</small><br><br>What exactly am I missing?  UTOPIA is just another socialist broadband scheme that is a costing taxpayers more money than it takes in.  This is no different than any other socialist broadband scheme tried anywhere else in the USA and it too is failing just like all of the others.<br> </div>You're missing that UTOPIA is only about the physical wire. Service can be provided by a large variety of third parties. (AT&T was one of the options until recently)<br><br>It's more like retail electricity deregulation. One company/cooperative/city owns and maintains the wire to your home. Another company sells you the electricity you receive over that wire, leaving you with the option of buying power from somebody who uses only renewable energy or buying power from a company that uses whatever happens to be cheap at the moment. Up to you.<br><br>That's a lot more competitive than the one or two companies who have a network in your town being able to sell you service, isn't it?<br><br>Edited to add: <i>Of course</i> it's costing more to operate than the money it's bringing in. <b><i>It's not finished yet</i></b>. I have yet to come across a project that made money before it was finished, in the corporate or government worlds.<br><br><small>--<br>It's w<i>ie</i>rdo, not w<i>ei</i>rdo. Yes, I know that's not the 'proper' spelling of the similar english language word. ;)</small>]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20411463</guid>
<pubDate>Wed, 30 Apr 2008 15:04:33 EDT</pubDate>
</item>

<item>
<title>Re: Shocking...</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20409768</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/629959"><b>marigolds</b></A> : <div class="bquote"><small>said by  pnh102 <A HREF="/useremail/u/625141"><IMG SRC="http://i.dslr.net/bb/profile.gif" ALT="See Profile" BORDER=0 WIDTH=16 HEIGHT=11></A> :</small><br><br>What exactly am I missing?  UTOPIA is just another socialist broadband scheme that is a costing taxpayers more money than it takes in.  This is no different than any other socialist broadband scheme tried anywhere else in the USA and it too is failing just like all of the others.<br> </div>I get it.<br><br>Like the interstate system.<br><small>--<br>ISCABBS - the oldest and largest BBS on the Internet<br>telnet://bbs.iscabbs.com<br>Professional Geographer<br>Geographic Information Science researcher</small>]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20409768</guid>
<pubDate>Wed, 30 Apr 2008 09:12:37 EDT</pubDate>
</item>

<item>
<title>Re: Shocking...</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20409462</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/625141"><b>pnh102</b></A> : What exactly am I missing?  UTOPIA is just another socialist broadband scheme that is a costing taxpayers more money than it takes in.  This is no different than any other socialist broadband scheme tried anywhere else in the USA and it too is failing just like all of the others.<br><small>--<br>This isn't fair!  I was only supposed to hate just ONE presidential candidate!</small>]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20409462</guid>
<pubDate>Wed, 30 Apr 2008 07:13:56 EDT</pubDate>
</item>

<item>
<title>Re: Shocking...</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20409258</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/317310"><b>wierdo</b></A> : <div class="bquote"><small>said by  pnh102 <A HREF="/useremail/u/625141"><IMG SRC="http://i.dslr.net/bb/profile.gif" ALT="See Profile" BORDER=0 WIDTH=16 HEIGHT=11></A> :</small><br><br>Government-provided broadband is comperable to the old state-run industries of the USSR.  The USSR would pour tons of resources into its state-owned industries to keep them running and we described that as socialist.  </div>Uh, what's so hard to grasp about UTOPIA. Why is it that people like yourself can't understand the simple fact that private companies are the ones providing the service.<br><br>It works almost like SBC's DSL used to, only with fiber, and no profit motive on the underlying network. Any provider that can afford to get connected to the network can provide service over it. The government doesn't provide anything but the wire.<br><br>What's wrong with increased competition? Do you own stock in Qwest or Comcast?<br><small>--<br>It's w<i>ie</i>rdo, not w<i>ei</i>rdo. Yes, I know that's not the 'proper' spelling of the similar english language word. ;)</small>]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20409258</guid>
<pubDate>Wed, 30 Apr 2008 03:11:46 EDT</pubDate>
</item>

<item>
<title>Re: Shocking...</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20409246</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/317310"><b>wierdo</b></A> : <div class="bquote"><small>said by  wifi4milez <A HREF="/useremail/u/1054326"><IMG SRC="http://i.dslr.net/bb/profile.gif" ALT="See Profile" BORDER=0 WIDTH=16 HEIGHT=11></A> :</small><br><br> fake competitive landscape.<br> </div>What? Utopia is more healthy for competition than their competitors. Who exactly is it that's providing infrastructure over which any ISP can offer service?<br><br>Which companies are quickly retreating from that form of provisioning and which never had it?<br><br>A project like Utopia is pure competition. Competition where it matters, in the service, not in the road. It's akin to the government building a road or an airport and taxis or package delivery services providing service using that infrastructure. It's only a problem to the Randians who have a problem with nearly anything the government does and the corporations who stand to lose their duopolies.<br><br>If you haven't noticed, private companies haven't been doing too well at citywide WiFi deployments lately, either.<br><small>--<br>It's w<i>ie</i>rdo, not w<i>ei</i>rdo. Yes, I know that's not the 'proper' spelling of the similar english language word. ;)</small>]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20409246</guid>
<pubDate>Wed, 30 Apr 2008 03:05:23 EDT</pubDate>
</item>

<item>
<title>Re: Shocking...</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20409182</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/317310"><b>wierdo</b></A> : <div class="bquote"><small>said by  jester121 <A HREF="/useremail/u/856374"><IMG SRC="http://i.dslr.net/bb/profile.gif" ALT="See Profile" BORDER=0 WIDTH=16 HEIGHT=11></A> :</small><br><br>Large corporation vs. government doesn't qualify as "predatory", unless we're talking about Godzilla vs. King Kong.<br><br>The whole point of competition is more choices and lower prices right? <br> </div>It's predatory when it's priced below cost, as several providers' service has been for years.<br><small>--<br>It's w<i>ie</i>rdo, not w<i>ei</i>rdo. Yes, I know that's not the 'proper' spelling of the similar english language word. ;)</small>]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20409182</guid>
<pubDate>Wed, 30 Apr 2008 02:59:34 EDT</pubDate>
</item>

<item>
<title>Re: Shocking...</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20408942</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/1221365"><b>Eric Martin</b></A> : $40 for 50mbps is great.<br><br>Leasing lines to Isp's sounds bad.  It just adds to the cost.<br><br>Actually the gov there passed a law that they have to lease to ISP's....WTF.....why?<br><br><blockquote><br><b><br>What went wrong?<br><br>From the beginning, UTOPIA and iProvo either chose, or were saddled with, a business model that has proved least successful in fiber rollouts, analysts say.<br><br>In 2001, the state Legislature passed the Utah Municipal Cable Television and Public Telecommunications Services Act, which allows cities to construct telecommunication infrastructure but not become the retail service provider for those systems. Instead, they have to use a wholesale model in which they build the digital pipe and then lease the lines to retail service providers such as Mstar.<br><br>That leads to underselling of the system and friction between the municipality, which needs to see a return on its multi-million dollar investment, and the service providers, which haven't risked as much, says Michael Render, president of RVA, a market research company that focuses on private and public fiber systems.<br><br>"They don't have skin in the game," he said. "The more difficult ones have been the wholesale systems such as iProvo and UTOPIA."<br><br>A consultant's report released last week found examples of that in iProvo.<br><br>"I found a lot of problems in the relationship between the two parties. Almost universally the telcom employees dislike or distrust the retailers, and this is then manifested in the working relationship between the two parties," wrote Doug Dawson of CCG Consulting. He said that Provo's contracts needed to be renegotiated to clearly delineate each party's tasks and responsibilities.</br> </blockquote></b>]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20408942</guid>
<pubDate>Wed, 30 Apr 2008 00:52:16 EDT</pubDate>
</item>

<item>
<title>Re: Shocking...</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20408289</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/629959"><b>marigolds</b></A> : Well, it certainly has not failed yet. It's penetration numbers really are pretty high considering how long it has been around. Way higher than any other similar deployment at this point in its timeframe.]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20408289</guid>
<pubDate>Tue, 29 Apr 2008 22:14:37 EDT</pubDate>
</item>

<item>
<title>Re: Shocking...</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20408242</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/1054326"><b>wifi4milez</b></A> : <div class="bquote"><small>said by  marigolds <A HREF="/useremail/u/629959"><IMG SRC="http://i.dslr.net/bb/profile.gif" ALT="See Profile" BORDER=0 WIDTH=16 HEIGHT=11></A> :</small><br><br>Advertising would help though; although not in the normal sense. Utopia would benefit heavily from commission style advertising designed to promote the system as a whole and benefit all of the ISPs as a group (think along the lines of the "Got Milk?" campaigns).<br> </div>There is no question that Utopia could have done things better, I just dont think it could ever have succeeded the way it was planned and set up. <br><small>--<br><b>&#1042;&#1077;&#1089;&#1085;&#1072; &#1087;&#1088;&#1080;&#1073;&#1099;&#1083;&#1072;</b></small>]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20408242</guid>
<pubDate>Tue, 29 Apr 2008 22:02:58 EDT</pubDate>
</item>

<item>
<title>Re: Shocking...</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20407742</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/629959"><b>marigolds</b></A> : Advertising would help though; although not in the normal sense. Utopia would benefit heavily from commission style advertising designed to promote the system as a whole and benefit all of the ISPs as a group (think along the lines of the "Got Milk?" campaigns).]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20407742</guid>
<pubDate>Tue, 29 Apr 2008 20:13:01 EDT</pubDate>
</item>

<item>
<title>Re: Shocking...</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20407683</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/1054326"><b>wifi4milez</b></A> : <div class="bquote"><small>said by  rahvin112 <A HREF="/useremail/u/635340"><IMG SRC="http://i.dslr.net/bb/profile.gif" ALT="See Profile" BORDER=0 WIDTH=16 HEIGHT=11></A> :</small><br><br>Without advertising very few people know of the service. Barring the ad's the incumbents take out in the paper there is very little knowledge of Utopia.<br> </div>But thats the whole point, Utopia is a network <b>NOT</b> an end user service provider. The onus of advertising falls on MStar, ATT, and XMission who provide service over the Utopia network. I really think people are having a hard time getting their hands around this idea. <br><small>--<br><b>&#1042;&#1077;&#1089;&#1085;&#1072; &#1087;&#1088;&#1080;&#1073;&#1099;&#1083;&#1072;</b></small>]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20407683</guid>
<pubDate>Tue, 29 Apr 2008 19:59:15 EDT</pubDate>
</item>

<item>
<title>Re: Shocking...</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20407576</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/635340"><b>rahvin112</b></A> : Without advertising very few people know of the service. Barring the ad's the incumbents take out in the paper there is very little knowledge of Utopia. Combined with Qwest and Comcast's predatory pricing (show me anywhere in the country, heck anywhere in Utah where they offer the same prices they offer in Utopia service areas. Last I saw they were offering their full silver Cable package for $25 a month in Utopia service areas and you could tack in phone and internet (10mbit) for under $50 total. That's predatory, in fact it's probably below cost. Their goal is to kill Utopia then the prices go up, just like the rest of Utah to 10 times the prices offered in the Utopia service areas. ]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20407576</guid>
<pubDate>Tue, 29 Apr 2008 19:33:16 EDT</pubDate>
</item>

<item>
<title>Re: Shocking...</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20406663</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/129458"><b>KrK</b></A> : I disagree.  Utopia is actually an ideal system, and holds great promise in not only saving the communities money long term, but providing future services at affordable rates by 3rd parties.  If it is ever allowed to reach fruition it will allow true competition to bridge the last mile.<br><br>If it achieves nothing else, at least it forced the incumbents to build out when they had been dragging their feet.  Part of the reason Utopia came to exist is because the incumbents there weren't in any hurry to bring broadband to the area.<br><br>They sure got in a great big hurry though once they started to do it for themselves.<br><small>--<br>"Regulatory capitalism is when companies invest in lawyers, lobbyists, and politicians, instead of plant, people, and customer service." - former FCC Chairman William Kennard (A real FCC Chairman, unlike the current Corporate Spokesperson in the job!)</small>]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20406663</guid>
<pubDate>Tue, 29 Apr 2008 16:38:06 EDT</pubDate>
</item>

<item>
<title>Re: Shocking...</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20406135</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/625141"><b>pnh102</b></A> : <div class="bquote"><small>said by  marigolds <A HREF="/useremail/u/629959"><IMG SRC="http://i.dslr.net/bb/profile.gif" ALT="See Profile" BORDER=0 WIDTH=16 HEIGHT=11></A> :</small><br><br>They have one major advantage.<br>Utopia is barred from advertising. </div>Not having to spend money on advertising should lower the cost of UTOPIA then.<br><small>--<br>This isn't fair!  I was only supposed to hate just ONE presidential candidate!</small>]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20406135</guid>
<pubDate>Tue, 29 Apr 2008 15:15:51 EDT</pubDate>
</item>

<item>
<title>Re: Shocking...</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20406125</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/625141"><b>pnh102</b></A> : <div class="bquote"><small>said by  KrK <A HREF="/useremail/u/129458"><IMG SRC="http://i.dslr.net/bb/profile.gif" ALT="See Profile" BORDER=0 WIDTH=16 HEIGHT=11></A> :</small><br><br>In Communist USSR, the people didn't have a say or choice.</div>I am not comparing the differences in political freedom between the USSR and the USA.  That aside, it is still 100% true that the old USSR would pour significant resources into keeping afloat inefficient and poorly managed state-owned industries.  UTOPIA runs on exactly the same model.<br><small>--<br>This isn't fair!  I was only supposed to hate just ONE presidential candidate!</small>]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20406125</guid>
<pubDate>Tue, 29 Apr 2008 15:14:52 EDT</pubDate>
</item>

<item>
<title>Re: Shocking...</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20405655</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/129458"><b>KrK</b></A> : <div class="bquote"><small>said by  pnh102 <A HREF="/useremail/u/625141"><IMG SRC="http://i.dslr.net/bb/profile.gif" ALT="See Profile" BORDER=0 WIDTH=16 HEIGHT=11></A> :</small><br><br>If government here is pouring tons of resources into UTOPIA, which is government owned, how is it any different?</div>In Communist USSR, the people didn't have a say or choice.  Here, it's a democracy, and the public do get to vote on and approve the bonds and get to vote on and remove or leave in place the administrators.   The people in the USSR had no such choice.<br><br>So, it maybe Government run, but it's democratically elected.<br><small>--<br>"Regulatory capitalism is when companies invest in lawyers, lobbyists, and politicians, instead of plant, people, and customer service." - former FCC Chairman William Kennard (A real FCC Chairman, unlike the current Corporate Spokesperson in the job!)</small>]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20405655</guid>
<pubDate>Tue, 29 Apr 2008 13:48:47 EDT</pubDate>
</item>

<item>
<title>Re: Shocking...</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20405625</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/413887"><b>axus</b></A> : I think the taxpayers have to decide if they are getting their money's worth.  If the incumbents are lowering their prices for everyone, how much money is everyone saving?  50,000 people x $20 per month is $12 million dollars a year.  Increase the number of people and savings is even bigger.]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20405625</guid>
<pubDate>Tue, 29 Apr 2008 13:43:58 EDT</pubDate>
</item>

<item>
<title>Re: Shocking...</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20404490</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/629959"><b>marigolds</b></A> : <div class="bquote"><small>said by  pnh102 <A HREF="/useremail/u/625141"><IMG SRC="http://i.dslr.net/bb/profile.gif" ALT="See Profile" BORDER=0 WIDTH=16 HEIGHT=11></A> :</small><br><br><div class="bquote"><small>said by  KrK <A HREF="/useremail/u/129458"><IMG SRC="http://i.dslr.net/bb/profile.gif" ALT="See Profile" BORDER=0 WIDTH=16 HEIGHT=11></A> :</small><br><br>Only because they are under nuclear attack from the Big Incumbents.... </div>But in this situation the incumbents have no real advantage over the socialist broadband program.  Private companies have to pay taxes, abide by regulations and deal with all sorts of BS that a government operation is exempt from.</div>They have one major advantage.<br>Utopia is barred from advertising.<br><small>--<br>ISCABBS - the oldest and largest BBS on the Internet<br>telnet://bbs.iscabbs.com<br>Professional Geographer<br>Geographic Information Science researcher</small>]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20404490</guid>
<pubDate>Tue, 29 Apr 2008 10:27:21 EDT</pubDate>
</item>

<item>
<title>Re: Shocking...</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20404486</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/629959"><b>marigolds</b></A> : <div class="bquote"><small>said by  Yauch <A HREF="/useremail/u/1223661"><IMG SRC="http://i.dslr.net/bb/profile.gif" ALT="See Profile" BORDER=0 WIDTH=16 HEIGHT=11></A> :</small><br><br>I don't have fiber or a muni network in my community and I can still get free installs and free equipment from Comcast and low rates and no contracts from at&t.  Are they giving me these heavy promos just to kill a network 2000 miles away?  Or is it just possible that the free market has worked out to my advantage in some small way?<br> </div>You're getting a wireless router with 6 wireless cards, home wireless network setup, and 10/1 for $15 a month unbundled too?<br>I want to know what you said to get that deal.<br><small>--<br>ISCABBS - the oldest and largest BBS on the Internet<br>telnet://bbs.iscabbs.com<br>Professional Geographer<br>Geographic Information Science researcher</small>]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20404486</guid>
<pubDate>Tue, 29 Apr 2008 10:26:13 EDT</pubDate>
</item>

<item>
<title>Re: Shocking...</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20403443</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/856374"><b>jester121</b></A> : <div class="bquote"><small>said by  pnh102 <A HREF="/useremail/u/625141"><IMG SRC="http://i.dslr.net/bb/profile.gif" ALT="See Profile" BORDER=0 WIDTH=16 HEIGHT=11></A> :</small><br><br><div class="bquote"><small>said by  jester121 <A HREF="/useremail/u/856374"><IMG SRC="http://i.dslr.net/bb/profile.gif" ALT="See Profile" BORDER=0 WIDTH=16 HEIGHT=11></A> :</small><br><br>That's a bit silly isn't it? By that logic, you don't earn a salary -- you mooch it from the people who give money to your employer. :uhh: </div>The taxes are still charged to the company, but the company simply raises prices to cover the costs of the taxes. </div>That's because it's illegal for companies to print money on their own. :uhh:<br><br>What's your point? They have to charge enough money to pay expenses, including taxes, salaries, rent, utilities, etc. The money comes from customers who choose to buy the product.]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20403443</guid>
<pubDate>Tue, 29 Apr 2008 01:25:43 EDT</pubDate>
</item>

<item>
<title>Re: Shocking...</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20402920</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/737475"><b>BosstonesOwn</b></A> : Exactly my point :)<br><br>Shame folks people don't understand it some times.]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20402920</guid>
<pubDate>Mon, 28 Apr 2008 22:57:35 EDT</pubDate>
</item>

<item>
<title>Re: Shocking...</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20402658</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/625141"><b>pnh102</b></A> : <div class="bquote"><small>said by Bill_In_LA :</small><br><br>Throwing around the word "Socialist" does not make it so.</div>Of course not.  However, that does not change the fact the system is socialist.  Government-provided broadband is comperable to the old state-run industries of the USSR.  The USSR would pour tons of resources into its state-owned industries to keep them running and we described that as socialist.  If government here is pouring tons of resources into UTOPIA, which is government owned, how is it any different?<br><div class="bquote"><small>said by Bill_In_LA :</small><br><br> This system was approved by the voters.</div>That just means a majority of voters are either dumb or do not pay taxes.<br><div class="bquote"><small>said by Bill_In_LA :</small><br><br>It may work out, it may not.</div>It hasn't.  It will simply drain more money from the taxpayers.<br><div class="bquote"><small>said by Bill_In_LA :</small><br><br>However, broadband in this country is a mess and it's because the private companies control the last mile.</div>Whenever private companies do invest in fiber and other next generation technologies, the same people here who whine about us being "so far behind" are the first to whine that these innovators are somehow "skirting the rules."<br><small>--<br>This isn't fair!  I was only supposed to hate just ONE presidential candidate!</small>]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20402658</guid>
<pubDate>Mon, 28 Apr 2008 22:07:50 EDT</pubDate>
</item>

<item>
<title>Re: Shocking...</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20402623</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/625141"><b>pnh102</b></A> : <div class="bquote"><small>said by  jester121 <A HREF="/useremail/u/856374"><IMG SRC="http://i.dslr.net/bb/profile.gif" ALT="See Profile" BORDER=0 WIDTH=16 HEIGHT=11></A> :</small><br><br>That's a bit silly isn't it? By that logic, you don't earn a salary -- you mooch it from the people who give money to your employer. :uhh: </div>The taxes are still charged to the company, but the company simply raises prices to cover the costs of the taxes.<br><small>--<br>This isn't fair!  I was only supposed to hate just ONE presidential candidate!</small>]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20402623</guid>
<pubDate>Mon, 28 Apr 2008 22:02:27 EDT</pubDate>
</item>

<item>
<title>Re: Shocking...</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20400859</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/1223661"><b>Yauch</b></A> : <div class="bquote"><small>said by Bill_In_LA :</small><br><br>Throwing around the word "Socialist" does not make it so.  This system was approved by the voters.</div>And being popular doesn't mean it's not a prime example of socialism.  Keep in mind 11 cities just promised nearly 30% of all tax revenue to keep this thing alive.  We're splitting hairs between spending tax revenues and only gambling with them.]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20400859</guid>
<pubDate>Mon, 28 Apr 2008 16:20:03 EDT</pubDate>
</item>

<item>
<title>Re: Shocking...</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20400499</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/1223661"><b>Yauch</b></A> : I don't have fiber or a muni network in my community and I can still get free installs and free equipment from Comcast and low rates and no contracts from at&t.  Are they giving me these heavy promos just to kill a network 2000 miles away?  Or is it just possible that the free market has worked out to my advantage in some small way?]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20400499</guid>
<pubDate>Mon, 28 Apr 2008 15:19:45 EDT</pubDate>
</item>

<item>
<title>Re: Shocking...</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20400316</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/856374"><b>jester121</b></A> : All your Layer 1 and 2 are belong to us.<br><br>- The Government]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20400316</guid>
<pubDate>Mon, 28 Apr 2008 14:50:23 EDT</pubDate>
</item>

<item>
<title>Re: Shocking...</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20400308</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/856374"><b>jester121</b></A> : <div class="bquote"><small>said by  pnh102 <A HREF="/useremail/u/625141"><IMG SRC="http://i.dslr.net/bb/profile.gif" ALT="See Profile" BORDER=0 WIDTH=16 HEIGHT=11></A> :</small><br><br><div class="bquote"><small>said by  BosstonesOwn <A HREF="/useremail/u/737475"><IMG SRC="http://i.dslr.net/bb/profile.gif" ALT="See Profile" BORDER=0 WIDTH=16 HEIGHT=11></A> :</small><br><br>Yeah pay taxes , I bet. More like use loop holes to avoid paying taxes.</div>Actually, you're right... I am wrong.  No company pays taxes at all.  We pay their tax bill as they pass their taxes onto us in the form of higher prices.<br> </div> That's a bit silly isn't it? By that logic, you don't earn a salary -- you mooch it from the people who give money to your employer. :uhh:]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20400308</guid>
<pubDate>Mon, 28 Apr 2008 14:49:04 EDT</pubDate>
</item>

<item>
<title>Re: Shocking...</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20400058</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/0"><b>anon</b></A> : Throwing around the word "Socialist" does not make it so.  This system was approved by the voters.  It may work out, it may not.  However, broadband in this country is a mess and it's because the private companies control the last mile.  We need to lay the damn fiber and let the people to control the last mile and have providers fight for their business.]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20400058</guid>
<pubDate>Mon, 28 Apr 2008 14:44:38 EDT</pubDate>
</item>

<item>
<title>Re: Shocking...</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20400268</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/129458"><b>KrK</b></A> : No.  They should sign on the network.  It's wholesale... but see that would be FAIR.  They don't want FAIR, or competition.  They want it ALL.   A network that allows competition would mean they have to compete.   They don't want that.]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20400268</guid>
<pubDate>Mon, 28 Apr 2008 14:41:46 EDT</pubDate>
</item>

<item>
<title>Re: Shocking...</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20400176</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/625141"><b>pnh102</b></A> : <div class="bquote"><small>said by  BosstonesOwn <A HREF="/useremail/u/737475"><IMG SRC="http://i.dslr.net/bb/profile.gif" ALT="See Profile" BORDER=0 WIDTH=16 HEIGHT=11></A> :</small><br><br>Yeah pay taxes , I bet. More like use loop holes to avoid paying taxes.</div>Actually, you're right... I am wrong.  No company pays taxes at all.  We pay their tax bill as they pass their taxes onto us in the form of higher prices.<br><small>--<br>This isn't fair!  I was only supposed to hate just ONE presidential candidate!</small>]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20400176</guid>
<pubDate>Mon, 28 Apr 2008 14:24:22 EDT</pubDate>
</item>

<item>
<title>Re: Shocking...</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20400112</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/856374"><b>jester121</b></A> : Comcast paid 1.8 billion in taxes last year -- is that enough for you? ]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20400112</guid>
<pubDate>Mon, 28 Apr 2008 14:14:33 EDT</pubDate>
</item>

<item>
<title>Re: Shocking...</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20400081</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/856374"><b>jester121</b></A> : Large corporation vs. government doesn't qualify as "predatory", unless we're talking about Godzilla vs. King Kong.<br><br>The whole point of competition is more choices and lower prices right? ]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20400081</guid>
<pubDate>Mon, 28 Apr 2008 14:08:23 EDT</pubDate>
</item>

<item>
<title>Re: Shocking...</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20400070</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/856374"><b>jester121</b></A> : Comcast and the other incumbents really should allow their market share to be eroded and lose lots of money in that market, right? :uhh:]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20400070</guid>
<pubDate>Mon, 28 Apr 2008 14:06:58 EDT</pubDate>
</item>

<item>
<title>Re: Shocking...</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20400022</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/737475"><b>BosstonesOwn</b></A> : Yeah pay taxes , I bet. More like use loop holes to avoid paying taxes.<br><br>Comcast's nice new building , which they use the rent as a tax write off. I am really tired of so many loop holes to prevent people from paying.<br><br>I want all companies and people to chip into taxes. Not just the people who don't have enough money to find loop holes to prevent them from paying.<br><small>--<br> "It's always funny until someone gets hurt......and then it's absolutely friggin' hysterical!"</small>]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20400022</guid>
<pubDate>Mon, 28 Apr 2008 14:01:10 EDT</pubDate>
</item>

<item>
<title>Re: Shocking...</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20400000</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/129458"><b>KrK</b></A> : What built in advantages?<br><br>With the advantages the COMPETITION has (huge revenues from other business and areas) that they are willing to take huge price cuts just to bury you... that's not a advantage.  Utopia needs a bigtime ISP, but the bigboys won't sign on because they are trying to KILL it and want it dead.<br><br>The idea of Utopia is well, utopia... but it's going to be murdered in it's infancy...  I hope there's serious blowback on the incumbents for this kind of behavior.<br><small>--<br>"Regulatory capitalism is when companies invest in lawyers, lobbyists, and politicians, instead of plant, people, and customer service." - former FCC Chairman William Kennard (A real FCC Chairman, unlike the current Corporate Spokesperson in the job!)</small>]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20400000</guid>
<pubDate>Mon, 28 Apr 2008 13:57:55 EDT</pubDate>
</item>

<item>
<title>Re: Shocking...</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20399976</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/129458"><b>KrK</b></A> : It's struggling with several issues,  but one of the biggest is the fact the subscriber rate is much lower then expected.  It's not like people don't want broadband, what's happening is that the incumbents are offering heavy promo deals and pricing (free install, free equipment, low rates, no contracts, etc) prices that they don't offer in other markets.<br><br>They are doing their best to try and kill it.   Of course, if it does die, those promo prices will vanish....<br><small>--<br>"Regulatory capitalism is when companies invest in lawyers, lobbyists, and politicians, instead of plant, people, and customer service." - former FCC Chairman William Kennard (A real FCC Chairman, unlike the current Corporate Spokesperson in the job!)</small>]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20399976</guid>
<pubDate>Mon, 28 Apr 2008 13:53:45 EDT</pubDate>
</item>

<item>
<title>Re: Shocking...</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20399888</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/201506"><b>Skippy25</b></A> : You would still be paying as a public citizen if a local incumbant was doing the same thing. The difference is you would have no say as the people that you voted in to serve you would be serving their gravy train business associates and handing them incentives left and right to make it happen.<br><br>The concept of Utopia is certainly the way to go: 1 network that is wholesaled out to those that want to service the people. Not only should this be done in communities, it should be done in states and it should be done nationwide. There is absolutely no reason we need a "utility" as such being built by everyone that wants to serve the people.]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20399888</guid>
<pubDate>Mon, 28 Apr 2008 13:38:11 EDT</pubDate>
</item>

<item>
<title>Re: Shocking...</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20399873</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/625141"><b>pnh102</b></A> : <div class="bquote"><small>said by  KrK <A HREF="/useremail/u/129458"><IMG SRC="http://i.dslr.net/bb/profile.gif" ALT="See Profile" BORDER=0 WIDTH=16 HEIGHT=11></A> :</small><br><br>Only because they are under nuclear attack from the Big Incumbents.... </div>But in this situation the incumbents have no real advantage over the socialist broadband program.  Private companies have to pay taxes, abide by regulations and deal with all sorts of BS that a government operation is exempt from.<br><br>You would think that with the built in competitive advantages that socialist broadband has going for it, it would run circles around private companies, but once again, it continues to fail, and require more taxpayer money to bail out.<br><small>--<br>This isn't fair!  I was only supposed to hate just ONE presidential candidate!</small>]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20399873</guid>
<pubDate>Mon, 28 Apr 2008 13:36:18 EDT</pubDate>
</item>

<item>
<title>Re: Shocking...</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20399628</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/1054326"><b>wifi4milez</b></A> : <div class="bquote"><small>said by  KrK <A HREF="/useremail/u/129458"><IMG SRC="http://i.dslr.net/bb/profile.gif" ALT="See Profile" BORDER=0 WIDTH=16 HEIGHT=11></A> :</small><br><br>Only because they are under nuclear attack from the Big Incumbents.... If they succeed in nuking Utopia from existence they will hold it up as the model nationwide that Muni broadband is a failure...<br> </div>Well, in this case I think its the taxpayers who are starting to push back. Remember, there were certain deployment goals that were not met and now they (Utopia) are asking for a lot more money. Thats the major issue with government deployments, when things go sour the citizens have to pony up more cash to fix it. Had this project been launched by a company, then you could bet the planning would have at least been better. <br><br>Dont get me wrong, I am all for as much competition as possible. There just comes a point when "I" no longer want to pay for the local government to flush my money down the toilet in order to get a fake competitive landscape. The good thing about private companies (as opposed to muni efforts) is that they are held accountable either by their shareholders or by their profit margins to get things done. <br><small>--<br><b>&#1042;&#1077;&#1089;&#1085;&#1072; &#1087;&#1088;&#1080;&#1073;&#1099;&#1083;&#1072;</b></small>]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20399628</guid>
<pubDate>Mon, 28 Apr 2008 12:51:00 EDT</pubDate>
</item>

<item>
<title>Re: Shocking...</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20399540</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/683237"><b>MrMoody</b></A> : <div class="bquote"><small>said by  KrK <A HREF="/useremail/u/129458"><IMG SRC="http://i.dslr.net/bb/profile.gif" ALT="See Profile" BORDER=0 WIDTH=16 HEIGHT=11></A> :</small><br><br>It ought to be a crime.</div>It is. It's called predatory pricing and violates antitrust laws that haven't been enforced in more than a token way in 20 years.<br><small>--<br>The public is a poor business manager.</small>]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20399540</guid>
<pubDate>Mon, 28 Apr 2008 12:36:08 EDT</pubDate>
</item>

<item>
<title>Re: Shocking...</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20399395</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/129458"><b>KrK</b></A> : Only because they are under nuclear attack from the Big Incumbents.... If they succeed in nuking Utopia from existence they will hold it up as the model nationwide that Muni broadband is a failure...<br><br>Plus, once it's gone, they'll go back to their regular ways....<br><br>This is just like the Communications Act of 1996.  "Kill it before it grows."<br><br>It ought to be a crime.<br><small>--<br>"Regulatory capitalism is when companies invest in lawyers, lobbyists, and politicians, instead of plant, people, and customer service." - former FCC Chairman William Kennard (A real FCC Chairman, unlike the current Corporate Spokesperson in the job!)</small>]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20399395</guid>
<pubDate>Mon, 28 Apr 2008 12:08:21 EDT</pubDate>
</item>

<item>
<title>Shocking...</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20399316</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/373609"><b>espaeth</b></A> : Another muni-broadband project coming in over budget with subscription rates that don't meet the requirements to keep the service sustainable.  <br><br>Telcos and MSOs will chase any opportunity to make a profit; when they run the numbers and decide that it's not viable for them to build out fiber in your town, chances are a government project isn't going to do much better.]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20399316</guid>
<pubDate>Mon, 28 Apr 2008 11:54:37 EDT</pubDate>
</item>

</channel>
</rss>
