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Stupid Canopy Question... »
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slipstream1
Premium
join:2005-11-15
Jacksonville, TX

reply to iansltx
Re: How much b\w does your average and top customer use?

I have 150 customers on a bonded pair of T-1's. The packages range from 256Kbps to 1Mbps. There are times when the T's get full and the network slows, but it is mostly peaky, not really sustained, unless Microsoft issues a Windows update.


mtroup
Marty
Premium
join:2007-06-28
Hermitage, AR
I hope you're ready for that 316.4 MB xp sp3

slipstream1
Premium
join:2005-11-15
Jacksonville, TX
I am going to start swinging customers over to the new 10Mbps fiber connection this weekend. I guess I had better hurry.

iansltx

join:2007-02-19
Fredericksburg, TX
·Comcast
·Qwest.net
·magicjack.com
·BeeCreek Communica..
·Sprint Mobile Broa..

Thanks for the info guys. @tx_tower I have been looking at *a cerain usage graph* and now that I have another number to put it with it's very informative. Seems in line with what I though; the vast majority of users don't use the 'net that much, though some users make up for that fact

Any other WiSPers, feel free to comment. Maybe even post an average GB per month usage if you are willing, though the network utilization\customer count info is really helpful. Thanks again!


Inssomniak

join:2005-04-06
Cayuga, ON
71 days, 800 gigabytes. 90 users, you do the math

iansltx

join:2007-02-19
Fredericksburg, TX
·Comcast
·Qwest.net
·magicjack.com
·BeeCreek Communica..
·Sprint Mobile Broa..

reply to iansltx
Upon further inspection, looks like the average internet user, average meaning spread out over all customers, uses about 7 GB per month on the class of connection you guys are talking about (topping out at 1 Mbit usually, it seems). Also, the concept of increasing OS ratios as customer numbers increase is interesting, though I can see how it happens

I wonder what happens when you give customers higher speeds...

iansltx

join:2007-02-19
Fredericksburg, TX
reply to Inssomniak
re: Inssomniak calculated it out, and it seems quite a bit lower than the others here. Traffic shaping or just lower speed tiers, or something else?

cmaenginsb
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-19
Palmdale, CA

reply to iansltx
said by iansltx See Profile :

Upon further inspection, looks like the average internet user, average meaning spread out over all customers, uses about 7 GB per month on the class of connection you guys are talking about (topping out at 1 Mbit usually, it seems). Also, the concept of increasing OS ratios as customer numbers increase is interesting, though I can see how it happens

I wonder what happens when you give customers higher speeds...
I've found that it stays about the same. Customers don't change their usage patterns, it just means that instead of downloading for 1 hour they do it for 30 minutes etc.

milbrath

join:2006-03-27
Dresden, TN


edit:
May 7th, @07:52PM

reply to iansltx
Please note all my figures are Down only(the only thing that really matters to me). You will never see and ISP concerned that they are maxing out their uplink, atleast not at the NOC level(Acess Point, DSLAM, CMTS possibly). I guess it's possible, just not the reason they ever need to turn up new circuits.

I never figured out our average use but from looking at NTOP the top 10 are usually in the 7-8Gb range. Heaviest user would be the mail server coming in around 15Gb(not really a customer).

Everyone of those people whining on the comcast thread would be stuck with dialup if they were in our service area. I WOULD not serve them. Those 250GB (assuming most all traffic is downloading) users would be costing us $337.30 just in usage per month(consuming approximately 13% of our DS3 at all times).

Our our current DS3 it costs about $1.35 per GB of traffic(assuming it's always being used 100% down). The 6Mb DS3 can push ~1850 GB down per month. (hope I did my math right!).
If you ask me comcast is being extremely generous. Granted their transit costs are probably closer to $.10 per GB.

Hmm, I wonder why I'm always broke now. Damn you AT&T and your overpriced DS3. Even worse since they bought bellsouth they've been trying to raise our local loop charge on the DS3.

BM

Rhaas

join:2005-12-19
Bernie, MO

Click for full size
Right now my top 5 d/loaders are (for 2 weeks) - 190gb, 95gb, 60gb, 55gb and 52gb (all DSL customers).
Top wireless users are at 16gb and 15gb (still in top 20 heaviest users, both 512k users).

I calculated my OS ratio at ~27:1 30Mb pipe with about 800Mb sold.


iansltx

join:2007-02-19
Fredericksburg, TX
·Comcast
·Qwest.net
·magicjack.com
·BeeCreek Communica..
·Sprint Mobile Broa..

Hmm, so faster speed tiers just enhances burstiness rather than impacting overall used bandwidth in a hug way (then again landline users seem to use more, so at some point b\w does make a difference).

Thanks to both of you guys for the info, thx to Rhaas for the graphs and "leaderboard". Very helpful.

As to the cost per gigabyte, I agree that unless you're buying in extreme bulk or run your own network you can't come out ahead. Ridiculous what companies are charging now for DS3s etc. Though I'd venture to say that big boys like Comcast (who runs their own nationwide backbone network...FDCServers has a 10GE pipe to them directly) have a bandwidth cost nearer zero than you'd think. With Cachefly's multlink CDN costing 25 cents per gig when you're paying $300 per month, or with Amazon S3's 10-18c per gig with no commitment, I'd suspect the real costs on Comcast etc.'s end are billing overhead, customer equipment and suchlike. Actual bandwidth costs, I'd say, would hover around 6-7 cents per gigabyte assuming full pipe usage. That translates to ~$20 per megabit of dedicated bandwidth, wich would be a reasonable figure to pull out of a hat for such an economy of scale with, what, 14+ million customers? Hecl, I feel it right to complain about their $1.50 per gig overage policy, and that's cost for WiSPs who are at the mercy of telcos for their DS3 loops!

Here's an interesting one though: if providers aren't concerned about uplink capacity (whose usage looks to be at most 30% of downlink) then, on landline guys (note the qualification; yes I know about the whole WiSP connections problem), BitTorrent shouldn't be too much of a problem. The person could download a file once, then seed it out a few times, and that would be that. Just have the ISP tell users "if you must BitTorrent, set your reseed ratio to no more than 2.00 and we're cool with it).

Again, thanks for the information everyone, and thanks in advance should anyone else decide to post some stats.

tx_tower

join:2007-11-13
Blanco, TX

said by iansltx See Profile :

Hmm, so faster speed tiers just enhances burstiness rather than impacting overall used bandwidth in a hug way (then again landline users seem to use more, so at some point b\w does make a difference).

Thanks to both of you guys for the info, thx to Rhaas for the graphs and "leaderboard". Very helpful.

As to the cost per gigabyte, I agree that unless you're buying in extreme bulk or run your own network you can't come out ahead. Ridiculous what companies are charging now for DS3s etc. Though I'd venture to say that big boys like Comcast (who runs their own nationwide backbone network...FDCServers has a 10GE pipe to them directly) have a bandwidth cost nearer zero than you'd think. With Cachefly's multlink CDN costing 25 cents per gig when you're paying $300 per month, or with Amazon S3's 10-18c per gig with no commitment, I'd suspect the real costs on Comcast etc.'s end are billing overhead, customer equipment and suchlike. Actual bandwidth costs, I'd say, would hover around 6-7 cents per gigabyte assuming full pipe usage. That translates to ~$20 per megabit of dedicated bandwidth, wich would be a reasonable figure to pull out of a hat for such an economy of scale with, what, 14+ million customers? Hecl, I feel it right to complain about their $1.50 per gig overage policy, and that's cost for WiSPs who are at the mercy of telcos for their DS3 loops!

Here's an interesting one though: if providers aren't concerned about uplink capacity (whose usage looks to be at most 30% of downlink) then, on landline guys (note the qualification; yes I know about the whole WiSP connections problem), BitTorrent shouldn't be too much of a problem. The person could download a file once, then seed it out a few times, and that would be that. Just have the ISP tell users "if you must BitTorrent, set your reseed ratio to no more than 2.00 and we're cool with it).

Again, thanks for the information everyone, and thanks in advance should anyone else decide to post some stats.
well at the risk of a beating the poor dead horse, its not so much bandwidth as it is connections and pps on a wireless network that makes lots of p2p usage a nightmare.


George Zerphey

@cticonnect.com

reply to mtroup
That is why a transparent caches are such a wonderful thing.

I actually recommend providing an internal FTP server for such things to the customers for just such a use. Weekly or Monthly "newsletters" can direct customers to the server without being considered spam and saving your bandwidth. Just make sure you restrict access to download only or strange thing can happen.

-George

VariableARK

join:2003-03-17
USA
What happens when users start dumping porn and copyrighted files on your ftp server?

Sounds like a legal nightmare. I do not think I would ever let users store any files on a server of mine (outside of mail).

gzerphey

join:2008-05-08
Willowbrook, IL

edit:
May 8th, @12:03PM

Again this why the FTP server is control by the administrator and the users only have read / download rights. By no means would I let just anyone throw files up there. Legal problems would probably be the least of your concerns at that point.


eecomputer

@plexicomm.net

reply to iansltx
Well, my connection is 3mb/s down and 768Kb/s up (sustained, burst is 8mb/s down, 1.5mb/s up) and I (on average) pull down about 80 gig/month and push about 40 - 60 gig up. We had to cut my up back to 512 sustained because I was hosing one of our most used AP's. Ya need to watch for ppl like me, b/c we are nasty to WISP's (I am a tech/installer for mine)

FreebirdFly

join:2008-06-05
Rockville, MD

So, if I live in one of your wireless areas and get an IPTV service sending me 800-950 kbps and I watch TV 5 hours per day- how long would it be until you shut me off or is this no big deal. I still will use the Internet, but just for email and web pages, no downloading.


AMD Phreak
Please do the needfull
Premium
join:2003-12-14

Re: How much b\w does your average and top customer use?�

I'd say it wouldn't matter to me. I have a lot of customers getting into the Netflix on demand thing. I tracked one of them and they use almost the full alloted BW on their plan 1.5Mbps download. It didnt even phase me other than saying whoah....

FreebirdFly

join:2008-06-05
Rockville, MD

I'd say it wouldn't matter to me. I have a lot of customers getting into the Netflix on demand thing. I tracked one of them and they use almost the full alloted BW on their plan 1.5Mbps download. It didnt even phase me other than saying whoah.... �

Isn't it not so much their speed but how much they actually move through your system. The 1.5 Mbps is simply the speed you allow the customer to download, but if they download 1000 kb every second for hours a day, wouldn't you as and IPS say you are using too much b/w and cap them?


superdog
I Need A Drink
Premium,MVM
join:2001-07-13
Lebanon, PA
·WaveCrazy.Net

Re: How much b\w does your average and top customer use?

said by FreebirdFly See Profile :

The 1.5 Mbps is simply the speed you allow the customer to download, but if they download 1000 kb every second for hours a day, wouldn't you as and IPS say you are using too much b/w and cap them?
If it is on my network?, I have no problem with it provided the network isn't busy. If you are the only one on at 1AM, why not let you have it all?. I tell all of my customers that if you want to download a large file?, please do it after 11PM. Fire it up and go to bed.

I have one customer who has college kids that come home on holidays, weekends etc. No matter what I do or say, they run Bit torrent, download music from Itunes or anything they feel like doing.

Now, before you jump up and say, "So what!, they pay for it, so why can't they?!", these people are customers, but...... They are the brothers family of the guy who owns the silo and I do not pay rent for the silo access. Now, with that being said, I owe the silo owner a lot (Hence the free access for silo owner and his family), however, I don't owe the brother anything.

I guess I am complaining because I am giving something for free and all I ask is for them to be kind and wait until everyone else is not using the network. Anyhow, I have no problem serving my customers but at some point I am going to need more bandwidth. I guess we all know that has to happen?, but it seems like whenever I may make a $$ or two, it goes right back out trying to make my customers happy. Oh well...............
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