bcastner
Premium,VIP,MVM
join:2002-09-25
Chevy Chase, MD
clubs: 
 ·Verizon Online DSL
| reply to AB
Re: [Info] XP SP3 cripples some PCs with endless reboots
AB,
I can see the case you make, and it is a good one. Let me suggest that it be tempered a bit, though:
1. The number of folks having issues is a very small percentage of those installing SP3. SP3 went through 3 Beta editions, and two Release Candidate versions. It was literally installed on hundreds of thousands of computers prior to going RTM. The number of issues reported was very small.
2. I have never seen a statistic, so I will make one up. My experience has been that about 40 percent of the installed base for XP is not current at all with Windows Updates; this includes a substantial amount of folks who never bothered with SP2. There is a compelling case for encouraging them to install SP3 -- to become current with all security and other Hotfixes, and to become current with Service Pack 2 as a feature and security baseline.
3. Support. The Microsoft Lifecyle is always based on the last Service Pack installed. Those using XP "Gold", and those using XP SP1 or 1a, have already lost any official support for XP. The way your license reads, you must stay current with the Service Pack releases to be entitled to support during the entire official LifeCycle of the product. Losing support essentially means that only identifed issues that pose a security threat will find Hotfixes any time during the remaining LifeCycle of support for the product. Even known errors will not find Hotfixes for out-of-cycle versions of XP.
4. Resources to help users with SP3 issues abound. Not only on web-based resources such as Forums like DSLR, but in hosted Newsgroups on Technet and the Microsoft General Newsgroup Community. In addition, Microsoft has offered free, unlimited, phone, online, chat and email support for any installation issues for SP3 for one entire year.
There is no dearth of folks willing and able to help with any installation issue.
5. Personal and selfish reasons for strongly encouraging the use of SP3 -- if you are sharing the Internet with me, I want your computer to have every Security enhancement to your OS version that is freely, and automatically, made available from Microsoft. To encourage end users to fall out of the support Life-Cycle because a very small number of others have had issues installing Service Pack 3 goes completely against my selfish interests in sharing the internet with those same folks.
One does not recommend Service Pack 3 because of the enhancements to the previoius feature set enhancements of XP SP2 -- there are no feature set enhancements on which to make such a case. But that is a straw man argument in my view. Microsoft has not tried to argue that SP3 is a feature set enhancement. Their official description usually uses the term "Modest enhancements." The case is made on other grounds, some of which I cover in this note.
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bcastner
Premium,VIP,MVM
join:2002-09-25
Chevy Chase, MD
clubs:
·Verizon Online DSL
| reply to storm64007
quote:
IMO- it was irresponsible for microsoft to release this as a critical update considering the millions of your "average joes" who have HP/Compaq computers with OEM XP an AMD processors. Most of your "average joes" have no idea how to go into their registry, boot up in safe mode, ect.
I agree with you storm64007  , at least as far as I believe Microsoft could have, and should have, done something in an integrated way with both Service Pack 2 and Service Pack 3 about this issue. The problem was just as real a problem with Service Pack 2.
I understand part of the reasoning for not having done so -- the mistake was not made by Microsoft but by the large OEM computer manufacturers; by the EULA between Microsoft and them, and Microsoft and you, the responsibility for this issue is the OEM's and not Microsoft's to fix.
But if I were Gary Sinofsky, Chief of the Windows Division at Microsoft, I would have taken ownership of the problem and its fix; and dealt with it directly in an integrated fashion inside the Service Pack itself.
Best wishes,
Bill Castner
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MS-MVP 2004 - -2008, ASAP Member
Users Helping Users
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AB
Premium
join:2006-04-04
Leesburg, VA
| reply to bcastner
said by bcastner :5. Personal and selfish reasons for strongly encouraging the use of SP3 -- if you are sharing the Internet with me, I want your computer to have every Security enhancement to your OS version that is freely, and automatically, made available from Microsoft. To encourage end users to fall out of the support Life-Cycle because a very small number of others have had issues installing Service Pack 3 goes completely against my selfish interests in sharing the internet with those same folks. If borking computers via an SP3 installation can help cut down on the number of bots and infections flying around, I'm all for it too! 
One does not recommend Service Pack 3 because of the enhancements to the previoius feature set enhancements of XP SP2 -- there are no feature set enhancements on which to make such a case. . . . Thank you.
Therefore, anybody reading this can now realize there's not necessarily any big rush to install SP3.
If you want to, fine-- but there's no missing the boat or putting the machine at risk by not doing so-- in fact, quite the contrary, as this and several other threads around here are showing. |
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bcastner
Premium,VIP,MVM
join:2002-09-25
Chevy Chase, MD
clubs: | AB,
A little balance here, please.
Getting in your car and driving to a shopping mall is likely a statistically higher risk proposition for you than installing XP SP3. |
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AB
Premium
join:2006-04-04
Leesburg, VA
| said by bcastner :AB, A little balance here, please. Getting in your car and driving to a shopping mall is likely a statistically higher risk proposition for you than installing XP SP3. I'm not aware of anyone who's ever borked their computer by going shopping. 
But I suppose it's happened.
I'm not here to argue the benefits/detriments of installing SP3-- my intention was in fact to add a little balance to what seems to be everybody's feeling of needing to install this ASAP. That's all.
I'm done. People are free to play it as they see fit. I'm not here to persuade anybody one way or the other. This is America, land of choices. Enjoy!  |
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jabarnut
Light Years Away
Premium,MVM
join:2005-01-22
Galaxy M31
| Come on AB...live a little! (BTW, I would never suggest that if it weren't for the fact that I happen to know you use Acronis TI.
(See "late edit", in my first post).
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pitroad01
join:2006-07-10
Raleigh, NC
 ·Time Warner VOIP
 ·RoadRunner Cable
| reply to Oleg
I applied SP3 to my 6 year old Dell 8100 XP Home SP2 several days ago with no issues (did uninstall IE7 1st at the advice of this site). I then did the same on my wife's Dell 1505 (XP-Home SP2), again no issues.
That being said I sat here a few days later glued to this forum and agonized with the guy's that were totally out of luck. I've been there when my system was trashed and my only hope was some unknown guru bailing me out through the goodness of his heart. Not a place anyone wants to be.
Thank God for tech forums and folks willing to share their knowledge. |
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AB
Premium
join:2006-04-04
Leesburg, VA
1 edit | reply to jabarnut
AB at home, living it up |
said by jabarnut :Come on AB...live a little! Laisez les bon temps roules! |
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33591094
join:2002-11-19
Canada
| reply to bcastner
said by bcastner :AB, A little balance here, please. Getting in your car and driving to a shopping mall is likely a statistically higher risk proposition for you than installing XP SP3. What a dumb analogy - is my computer in this magical car with me? WTF is your point? Am i installing SP3 whilest driving? I bet that's where my problem is!
Best to steer clear of analogies - especially those involving motor vehicles. -- those are best left for browser wars..... |
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Oleg
Bellsouth Fastaccess
Premium
join:2003-12-08
Birmingham, AL | reply to Oleg
Off topic.Just wonder those who are using pre installed OEM OS how much RAM is your system using? |
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ChiTang
Premium,MVM
join:2002-08-23
Alhambra, CA
| reply to 33591094
said by 33591094 :said by bcastner :AB, A little balance here, please. Getting in your car and driving to a shopping mall is likely a statistically higher risk proposition for you than installing XP SP3. What a dumb analogy - is my computer in this magical car with me? WTF is your point? Am i installing SP3 whilest driving? I bet that's where my problem is! Best to steer clear of analogies - especially those involving motor vehicles. -- those are best left for browser wars..... It means it stands a better chance to get hurted by driving a car than installing SP3. Both are statistically very low. There are people who has issue to begin with, after installing SP3, the issue shows. Is it the fault of SP3? I think not.
I dealt with one system, no antivirus, I stalled AVG Free, after the AVG updates, the system was popping up with virus warning dialog box like there was no tommorrow. My client was accusing me of infecting his system.
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I used to be indecisive, now I am not sure. |
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Oleg
Bellsouth Fastaccess
Premium
join:2003-12-08
Birmingham, AL
| said by ChiTang :said by 33591094 :said by bcastner :AB, A little balance here, please. Getting in your car and driving to a shopping mall is likely a statistically higher risk proposition for you than installing XP SP3. What a dumb analogy - is my computer in this magical car with me? WTF is your point? Am i installing SP3 whilest driving? I bet that's where my problem is! Best to steer clear of analogies - especially those involving motor vehicles. -- those are best left for browser wars..... It means it stands a better chance to get hurted by driving a car than installing SP3. Both are statistically very low. There are people who has issue to begin with, after installing SP3, the issue shows. Is it the fault of SP3? I think not. I dealt with one system, no antivirus, I stalled AVG Free, after the AVG updates, the system was popping up with virus warning dialog box like there was no tommorrow. My client was accusing me of infecting his system. How is it your problem when client did not have any Anti-Virus installed at all it make me mad when people com up with those claims. |
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Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
| reply to bcastner
said by bcastner : To encourage end users to fall out of the support Life-Cycle because a very small number of others have had issues installing Service Pack 3 goes completely against my selfish interests in sharing the internet with those same folks. One does not recommend Service Pack 3 because of the enhancements to the previoius feature set enhancements of XP SP2 -- there are no feature set enhancements on which to make such a case. But that is a straw man argument in my view. Microsoft has not tried to argue that SP3 is a feature set enhancement. Their official description usually uses the term "Modest enhancements." The case is made on other grounds, some of which I cover in this note. That is a good point except one does not fall out of the Windows life cycle for two years with regard to a new Service Pack for XP. So, wait two years before you complain about folks not installing SP3. I think most of us wait because we figure any problems with SP3 will be fixed by the time SP2 is no longer supported. Besides, has Microsoft announced yet that we can order the CD? If so, link please.
Seems to me that SP3 is mostly useful if you have to reinstall XP so there is not so many patches to install. So, the sensible thing is to get the CD from Microsoft and hold onto it and if you never need to reinstall XP then why ever upgrade? You can still install the security patches after the end of support of Service Pack 2. They just won't have been tested on SP2. If that bothers you then you should upgrade before the end of support for Service Pack 2.
I had the last release candidate on a virtual machine and it caused some problems and I don't have an AMD processor. But I also have Fx3 beta and IE8 beta on that machine so I am not sure which was causing problems. However, after I reverted to a snapshot before I installed SP3 RC, but I still had Fx 3 beta and IE 8 beta, the problems went away. So, I am in no rush to install SP3. I have two years before I would really need to install it if I want new security patches to be tested on the version of XP I use. I have made no final decisions about installing/not installing/waiting for end of SP 2 support, etc. as it just was released.
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"The same ferocity that our founders devoted to protect the freedom and independence of the press is now appropriate for our defense of the freedom of the internet. The stakes are the same: the survival of our Republic". Al Gore, The Assault on Reason |
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jadinolf
I love you Fred
Premium
join:2005-07-09
Ojai, CA
·DSL EXTREME
| reply to howie
said by howie :Wow, XP SP3 sounds like the next ME! There was only one ME {gag} 
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ChiTang
Premium,MVM
join:2002-08-23
Alhambra, CA
| reply to Oleg
said by Oleg :How is it your problem when client did not have any Anti-Virus installed at all it make me mad when people com up with those claims. They are the one who signd the check.
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I used to be indecisive, now I am not sure. |
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La Luna
Surviving Ashraful
Premium
join:2001-07-12
Warwick, NY
clubs:
·Optimum Online
·Vonage
| reply to bcastner
said by bcastner :said by La Luna :I see the fix that bcastner discussed for AMD processors in the other thread here is discussed in that article. They quote Jesper Johannson extensively about the issue. But did you also note in Jesper's Blog write-up (linked in the article above) who he said fixed his own computer? » msinfluentials.com/blogs/jesper/···sp3.aspx Ahem.....YOU!! 
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cjwarner
join:2002-01-02
Pelham, AL | reply to jabarnut
I have installed SP3 on 15 WinXP PCs now, all with no problems.
I have also installed SP1 on my two Vista PCs, no problems.
Do I need to start a SP installation training center? |
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Lowtarget
Premium
join:2003-12-22
Alger, OH
clubs:
·RoadRunner Cable
·magicjack.com
| reply to Oleg
I have SP3 running on my Intel based laptop. Which is running without any problems. But all my AMD based desktops are still running SP2. I'll wait to install it on my desktops. I want to be sure it wont mess the OS up first. I got way too much data to lose on them. |
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kcazzie
One Of Jerry's Kids
Premium
join:2000-08-13
Morton Grove, IL
·AT&T Midwest
| reply to Oleg
Two here with no problems, one OEM and one self built...I had to make sure my wife's PC was OK, she has all her work stuff is on that PC... It had me kind of worried and I agree with Bill that MS should have done more but OEM's sometimes want to it their way...$$$... I think that's the problem... |
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Doctor Olds
I Need A Remedy For What's Ailing Me.
Premium,VIP
join:2001-04-19
1970 442 W30
clubs:
| reply to Oleg
XP SP3 cripples some OEM AMD-based PCs with endless reboots
»www.computerworld.com/action/art···=9084418
quote:
According to Johansson, there appears to be two separate issues. One affects only AMD-equipped PCs sold by Hewlett-Packard Co. "The problem is that HP, apparently along with other OEMs, deploys the same image to Intel-based computers that they do to AMD-based computers," said Johansson. "Because the image for both Intel and AMD is the same, all have the intelppm.sys driver installed and running. That driver provides power management on Intel-based computers. On an AMD-based computer, amdk8.sys provides the same functionality."
Running the intelppm.sys driver on an AMD-powered PC isn't normally an issue, but on the first reboot after a service pack installation, it causes "a big problem," Johansson said. The machine either fails to boot or crashes and immediately reboots.
The other problem, according to Johansson, also seems to affect only AMD machines, and involves an error message indicating trouble with the PC's BIOS. Johansson said that the ensuing recommendation to update the BIOS is "most likely not your problem," but said that the problem may be isolated to a specific motherboard. "Possibly, it is related to computers with the Asus A8N32-SLI Deluxe motherboard in them," he said.
Johansson also spelled out workarounds for both problems on his blog. The HP issue can be solved by disabling the intelppm.sys driver, while the second fix requires the user to plug in a USB flash drive before booting.
Very small and specific number of OEM AMD-based PCs. It isn't as large as you make it sound.
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