BF69
join:2004-07-28
Camden, TN
| reply to clickie
Re: [HSI] Charter to monitor surfing, insert its own targeted ad
said by clickie  : Now, as far as Charter stealing ad space from web sites, that's bunk. It's untrue. There have been numerous reports since this story broke that state Charter is using Nebuad and Nebuad is using data collection to be used for ad syndicators. Read it on Wired, read the past articles on DSLReports about Nebuad. They don't replace ads, they ostensibly make the ads more targeted. Please. Prove they aren't taking away ads. Are you teling me that if I have a site and I use adsense that Charter isn't rpalcing ads? They are either replacing ads or adding more ads and thus reducing my revenue. Does Google use Nebuad? I don't think so. so please. |
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clickie
join:2005-05-22
Monroe, MI
| Well, let's see:
Today's Wired article:
»blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/2008/0···nse.html
Previous Article Here:
»Ask DSLReports.com: What Is NebuAD?
You know how to run Google, you can find more for yourself.
You have the wrong idea on what is going on here. Nebuad takes your web browsing history, generates a bunch of categories it thinks you'd be receptive to seeing ads about, and then uses that database coupled with your unique "ID" (ostensibly generated from the MAC address of your cable modem) and then sells that information to advertising syndication services *like* Google Adwords, *like* Valueclick. Those people pay a premium for having the targeting information. Charter isn't overwriting anyone's ad space.
Now, these clowns at Nebuad might have tried that game in the past; I'm not faulting you for having your panties in a bunch because somewhere, these people were alleged to have poached ad space in some context (see the DSLreports link above). But making a very generous open-minded assumption that what the Nebuad CEO says in the above interviews as being true, then no, they won't be replacing ads.
I'll say it again; I still don't like these people generating what amounts to a persistent cookie that I can't control, can't delete and can't see. I've already made ample complaints to my representatives, the FTC and the FCC (email and postal mail). I think these jokers can be trusted not to poach ad space, but I think that's about as far as they can be trusted only because poaching ad space is so easy to detect and so easy to get sued over. They can not however, be trusted with my browsing habits. At some point, they or some other company operating in a similar manner will make broad privacy infringements. |
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boozwooz
@charter.com | reply to cjhorh
I think some people need to start their own ISP, otherwise learn to play by your ISPs rules. Don't like it? Bye. Vote with your wallet. Crying solves nothing. |
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BF69
join:2004-07-28
Camden, TN
| said by boozwooz :
I think some people need to start their own ISP, otherwise learn to play by your ISPs rules. Don't like it? Bye. Vote with your wallet. Crying solves nothing.
And if Charter is you only choice? Boy some of youa re so willingot give up your freedoms and privacy. It's people like you that ruin freedom for those that actually love it.
Fact is just because at&t is my phone company doesn't mean they a have a right to hear my conversations and see who I call then have telemarketers call me and try to sell me things or send me junk mail. This is exactly the same thing. That fact you see nothing wrong with it disturbs me. |
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BF69
join:2004-07-28
Camden, TN
| reply to clickie
said by clickie :Well, let's see: Today's Wired article: » blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/2008/0···nse.htmlPrevious Article Here: » Ask DSLReports.com: What Is NebuAD?You know how to run Google, you can find more for yourself. You have the wrong idea on what is going on here. Nebuad takes your web browsing history, generates a bunch of categories it thinks you'd be receptive to seeing ads about, and then uses that database coupled with your unique "ID" (ostensibly generated from the MAC address of your cable modem) and then sells that information to advertising syndication services *like* Google Adwords, *like* Valueclick. Those people pay a premium for having the targeting information. Charter isn't overwriting anyone's ad space. All bullshit. I kow what's REALLY going on. Besides if I have awebsite and have adsense ads. dont I control that? Of course. I'm SUPPOSED to decide what ads get shown. now you;re talling me some other comany gets ot decide. Um that kind of gfoes against what Google says.
from the adsense site
"Competitive Ad Filter enables you to filter out specific competitors or specific advertisers."
Now Nebaud/Charter is going to override what I wish? What right do they have to do that? My site, I know what's best to show for my surfers. Also if it's not replacing ads how does Charter make money? If people click my adsense ads I get paid not Charter. So where does Charter fit in? Sounds VERY fishy to me.
I guess all you adsense people start seeing lost income from people that have Charter you'll finally see the light. Remember I'm on YOUR side. I beleive that YOU should control the content the surfers sees on YOUR site not Charter. |
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clickie
join:2005-05-22
Monroe, MI
| You're stuck on transmit and not thinking this through here. But, in the spirit of being a nice guy, I'll answer your questions because obviously your web site takes a lot of your time.
The company that decides which ads are shown are the companies that YOU, the "webmaster", has contracted with to provide ad syndication. Nothing changes. Nothing. Zilch. Are you with me on this? Nebuad/Charter is not going to change your existing dealings with Adsense. They have no right to change that, so they don't.
Charter makes money by allowing the Nebuad people to peek inside the IP packets of its customers and see where they are going, what they're doing and for how long. Nebuad puts their equipment on Charter's network and Charter cashes those checks. That's how Charter makes money; and according to the links I so graciously posted, it's as much as $5 per month per user. A very enticing amount.
I understand your outrage here, but it's entirely misdirected and based upon false premises. The umbrage should be over the fact that some company, Nebuad, to whom you do not have a business agreement and to you owes nothing, is permitted to peek into your private online activities for the purposes of collecting information in order to target ads to you. That's the issue here.
In the past, these people have probably experimented with poaching ads. But they were caught, and modified their business practices so they didn't screw over web sites, they screw over the customers of ISPs.
Etiende? |
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John Roberts
@embarqhsd.net
| reply to cjhorh
There has never been a better time to utilize an Online Privacy Service like Ultimate Anonymity »www.Ultimate-Anonymity.com to mask your activities from nosey ISPs. Services like these provide a host of online privacy tools for its users including anonymous web surfing by providing a secured, encrypted tunnel between your PC and the site you visit making data interception not possible. Additionally you remain anonymous to the actual site you visit. |
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airhead
join:2008-05-14
Acworth, GA
| @clickie.... ok. That makes more sense. Poaching ADs would be insane and it was hard to imagine any viable business attempting that.
The confusion came from Charter's presentation. Instead of saying "hey customers, we want to collect your info and sell it, or you can opt-out".... they say "Hey, we found a technology to make your existing ADs better (not more ads) and more directed to you, although you can opt-out". Typical marketing... the goal being to provide a good-feeling, not really explain anything.
So ultimately, my sites with their Google ad-sense ads on them, might actually make more MORE MONEY because of all this. If the info from NebuAd is profitable, then Google will use it, and I make more. If the info from NebuAd doesn't work, then Google stops using it (and buying it) and whole thing dies on the table.
So once again, as with all things through American History, the choice is between freedom, privacy, and the constitution OR more money. This society has always chosen 'more money'... that will never change. I expect all ISPs to follow suite very soon. |
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clickie
join:2005-05-22
Monroe, MI
| The document is extremely confusing, and it is probably a result of being written by the marketing department who was trying to apply liberal lubricant to an uncomfortable event.
The fact that Charter isn't replacing ads doesn't make this any easier nor less distasteful. I've had communications with a couple privacy organizations and all have rendered an opinion that this is illegal regardless of what their customer terms of service indicate. The issue is that these people are intercepting communications that are often covered by other privacy statutes, and since they inspect each and every packet, choosing to ignore the ones they deem too sensitive is still too late. And making your customers agree to an activity that's illegal doesn't suddenly make it legal.
I suspect that businesses like Nebuad are not going away, but rather will evolve their business into being able to throw away packets from MAC addresses held by customers who do not consent to the monitoring. Which I guess is a victory because their current cookie concept is inadequate.
One thing is certain though, if this is illegal, it will be a very long time before Charter is forced to pull the plug. Which means that they will deploy this travesty in all their markets. I really think the customers need to make a lot of noise about this. |
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haplo2112
join:2003-05-12
Charlton, MA
2 edits | reply to boozwooz
I am so sick of the VOTE with YOUR WALLET crap.
Guess what some of us have NO CHOICE.
I can't go anywhere else I can ONLY get broadband access where I live from Charter. THERE IS NO COMPETITION! NONE! |
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clickie
join:2005-05-22
Monroe, MI
| It is extremely easy for someone with choices to tell someone without choices to do without internet.
Why don't you draft a nice letter to Charter's management and express your anger and state that while you're stuck with them, that doesn't mean you're going to accept this nonsense. Tell them you're supporting privacy organizations and will be working to see this event changed? Or write to your representatives in Congress and state legislatures and copy the Charter executives.
They need to know that while you can't change providers, you can do things to force Charter to change. |
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tech reporter
@tds.net | reply to cjhorh
»www.madison.com/tct/news/stories/286500 |
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boozwooz
@charter.com
| reply to BF69
said by BF69 :The fact you see nothing wrong with it disturbs me. We all see what's wrong with it, most of us are smart enough to deal with it, or find a way around it. It sucks, but by no means is it the end of the freaking world. sheeshzz |
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moon1234
@tds.net
| What a very narrow minded response. How about I point a camera from across the street into your house and record everything you do? I will use your habits in your home to send junk mail to your house.
I see you and your wife are getting along *well*. How about some junk mail for bedroom toys. I see you now have a new child. How about ads for diapers, etc.
The same thing is happening on your connection with Charter. They are watching and recording EVERYTHING you do on your connection. Get some spyware on your computer that starts downloading illegal content (kiddie porn, terrorist stuff, etc) and you think the ISP won't eventually let the government know about it?
There is NOT a real person watching either. All these companies need to do is use automated services to determine who and what you are. This WILL lead to you being profiled. This WILL eventually be used by the government to find those undesirable people. (It probably already is used by the NSA, they just can't do anything to you publically.)
Some people are VERY short sighted. Collecting any statistics about what you download from the internet should be illegal without a court order. Selling this information for profit should also be illegal. |
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Time4AnewISP
@centurytel.net
| reply to cjhorh
to those who think "I don't have anything to hide" or think that their opt out is sufficient... read on:
Charter is placing 3rd party snooping servers between YOU and the INTERNET. ALL traffic will get inspected, recorded, logged.. ALL traffic. REGARDLESS OF WHETHER YOU OPT OUT OR NOT.
OPTing out simply means that the third party advertiser won't deliver the "super-ultra-targeted" ads to you; you'd still see whatever ad was originally going to display anyway... they will still get to see and record all your internet traffic. Note the "cookie based" opt out would only be (marginally) effective as a method of tracking 'opt out status' (for targeted ad display) on port 80; the standard web (http) port.. mail, NNTP, ftp, torrents, non-standard web ports, irc, etc... all still subject to total surveillance...
Current technology on the 'deep inspection' and analysis front is very sophisticated and very capable, which will give Charter very solid data on which they could build discriminatory and anticompetitive traffic shaping rules (for their next "enhancement").
EVEN if all they log for eternity is clickstreams.. URLs contain search terms; and often contain usernames and/or passwords or other sensitive data.. besides the obvious of identifying every single specific web page, graphic, media file, etc. your browser accesses. Cookies and httpauth credentials are transferred on every page view which uses either of those items.
The 'prefetch' feature in some browsers can even cause items to be archived and logged that you never did specifically request and/or view.. and those could be potentially harmful or at the very least, embarrassing.
Law enforcement will be drooling over this.. Imagine internet providers willfully logging and archiving all their user's internet traffic... makes their goal of total surveillance that much easier; no red tape or pesky constitution getting in the way of their prize, and they can just use an NSL or claim 'terrorist investigation' and get what they want WITHOUT a WARRANT at all.
INNOCENT PEOPLE are targeted by "investigations" all the time. Just because you think you have nothing to hide or nothing to worry about.. doesn't make it so! Just look at the "no fly list"-- how many thousands of innocent people are on that list? (answer: lots) how many more (thousands upon thousands) people with similar or same names as those on the list are also affected? (answer: lots more)
Remember that AOL search log fiasco awhile ago? that was just search terms and supposedly 'anonymized' id's; yet many personal, sensitive, and at times, embarrassing details where in there.. and some of those were able to be tracked back to the original individual. What Charter is doing, and allowing to be done on their network, is FAR, FAR WORSE.
since the very early days of commercial internet access, people have been renting 'dumb pipes' --- internet access today must return to that status... broadband is 'big dumb pipes'.. period. the users don't want broken DNS servers making money for ISPs off the user's typos... and users do NOT WANT TO BE SPIED ON BY ANYONE, regardless of reason or intent.
**IF** broadband providers cannot "make enough money" on the packages they're selling if they simply provide 'big dumb pipes' -- then those packages need to be adjusted, both for speed and price. Charter: a 16 mbit connection should cost a tad bit more than just 10 bucks a month more than a 3 mbit connection.. ya think?
a nickel here, a dime there (for insane speed upgrades), and discontinuing the much slower speeds (and lower rates) that most people actually WANT, are what got you into the bandwidth bind in the first place..... con, trick or force people into the fastest speed you got then you better EXPECT that speed to be used.. sheesh. it's just farkin COMMON SENSE. charge enough to not go bankrupt... and with just one primary competitor (the local telco) in any given market, it shouldn't be that friggin hard... for every person that's PO'd at a cable company, you'll find one that's equally PO'd at the telco.. the former will flock to the telco, the latter to the cable company..
SELLING OUT via poisoned and broken DNS, and via selling your customers' online soul ARE NOT WORTH IT. an across the board rate hike of $5.00 (that'd be a SMALL one for you guys... our last hikes were two consecutive $20 ones; $41 extra/mo when it finally settled down) would more than make up for those and whatever other messed up ideas you got brewing. BUT, i'd rather see a return of the 384 kbit and 1.5 mbit speeds for $15 and $25.. as people migrate back to the slower speeds, including some of the more price-conscious 'heavy users, the network congestion will ease (but then there isn't a bandwidth crunch in many markets..... so you might even be able to scale back on your upstream connections).
once people settle in on the slower speeds, you RAISE the price on the "troublesome" fastest speeds, where the heavy users and abusers are.. they'll either cough up the cash, downgrade, or they'll leave.. if they leave, then you don't have to worry anymore either (you weren't making any money off them anyway, so what difference would it have been: status quo where you were losing money on 'em or lose the customer and not lose any more money).
** the above is based on 'worst case' scenario.. where charter, the third party 'provider' and government cannot be trusted... which, of course, they cannot be.. not really... not to watch out for your interest or mine.. they could care less. all they care about is their bottom lines and absolute control.
so you decide.. is the above more likely, or is this: strict privacy policies that are adhered to, data retention is modest, with proper secure data wiping techniques being employed... the companies involved fight off requests for data/warrants to protect their users... servers and data centers comply with security standards similar to hipaa, sas70, etc... opt out really means you opt out, completely... prices not going up (again), or actually go down, because of the cash they're raking in on this sell out... |
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anony1
@charter.com | reply to cjhorh
I say we start using:
»www.antiphorm.com/page_software.htm
on Charter. It simulates random surfing to mux up their stats. |
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mosxs
join:2008-04-23
Hesperia, CA
| reply to cjhorh
Well, if this rolls out nationwide, I'll definitely be canceling my Charter service.
Even if I have to pay Verizon $50 a month for 1.5Mbps DSL on Dry Loop while I wait for FiOS.
I'm certainly not giving Charter my money to spy on me. If they want to insert ads then they need to drop the price of the service significantly. |
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haplo2112
join:2003-05-12
Charlton, MA | reply to haplo2112
»craphound.com/littlebrother/
Good book relevant to the topic in many ways. |
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clickie
join:2005-05-22
Monroe, MI
| reply to cjhorh
There's a hole in the argument that this Nebuad concept does not link you personally. That's false.
The whole idea behind Nebuad is to assist people in getting you to buy things. So if you click on an ad, I'm certain that feedback is given to Nebuad. You go to the merchant, who may or may not know you via your hashed id, and the second you buy something, they know who you are.
So while Charter may not provide personally identifiable information, the premise that over time Nebuad doesn't know your identity is suspect. These marketing companies love to keep data and share data, and I'm certain that they all know who you are the second you purchase something used by an ad from their servers. |
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Jane_Doughy
@charter.com
| reply to cjhorh
I think it great that anon posters (and most likely employees) from TDS and Centurytel are here posting, considering they are Charter's main cometion where I live. I don't blame them for trying to cash in on this. I found an interesting article on the net
»www.boingboing.net/2008/05/15/an···fou.html |
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