Doctor Olds
I Need A Remedy For What's Ailing Me.
Premium,VIP
join:2001-04-19
1970 442 W30
clubs:
| reply to MIA_Dogs
Re: [Line Problem] [DSL] Phone line bad? Earthlink can do nothin
There is nothing any ISP can do when the Telco (who owns the copper) refuses to fix a line that is resold for residential DSL. There are no pre or post conditioning clauses so they won't do it. Now if you have issues on the POTS side that are obvious (noise, clicking, static, dropped phone calls, garbled faxes, hums, bleed-through of AM radio stations) then you have the needed power as a paying POTS customer to have AT&T/Bellsouth fix your POTS line issue (and never even have to mention DSL problems) and that will correct DSL problems in the same sweep as the items I listed will all affect the DSL signal.
I'm curious what your DSL Stats look like inside at the Modems normal location and also outside at the NID. That can tell you whether it is the line or something else.
»EarthLink DSL FAQ »How do I test at my NID? What does it look like?
Regards,
Doctor Olds
--
What’s the point of owning a supercar if you can’t scare yourself stupid from time to time? |
|
jimbo48
join:2000-11-17
Hayward, CA
 ·EarthLink
| Isn't there something inherently wrong with selling/offer to sell a service that can't be delivered yet charge a client for that service? If the Telco won't/can't "fix" the line or the line isn't suitable for DSL, then the ISP shouldn't be offering to re-sell that pair for DSL.
The end users agreement is with their ISP for DSL services and not Covad or BellSouth so IF the ISP can't/won't do anything to address their end of the contract, then the end-user should walk away/terminate their DSL service agreement without any penalty |
|
Doctor Olds
I Need A Remedy For What's Ailing Me.
Premium,VIP
join:2001-04-19
1970 442 W30
clubs:
| said by jimbo48  :Isn't there something inherently wrong with selling/offer to sell a service that can't be delivered yet charge a client for that service? If the Telco won't/can't "fix" the line or the line isn't suitable for DSL, then the ISP shouldn't be offering to re-sell that pair for DSL. This is a case of a service that just recently developed problems. As the Telco does have the right to move lines around in their CO as they add capacity and add new users, and make general changes, any of those can make a existing users line go over the distance limit for DSL especially when they add services for new developments in the same area. Once a existing line that previously was flawless turns up as TNF, there isn't much any ISP or customer can do. Residential DSL does not come with a SLA. If a SLA is needed, that is a Business service.
--
What’s the point of owning a supercar if you can’t scare yourself stupid from time to time? |
|
MIA_Dogs
join:2007-05-08
Miami, FL
·EarthLink
| reply to Doctor Olds
Thanks for the replies.
As much as I understand the Telco's right to route their service as they see fit, the subsequent loss of service is fair game to be labelled TNF (by the ISP, mind you) and swept under the rug. Since I wouldn't ever have a chance to check their lease agreement with Bellsouth, it falls on Earthlink to push for better service and conclusive tests. If you look at this from a business standpoint, it makes absolutely no sense for Bellsouth to lift a finger to do anything except maybe sick some salespeople on the poor sap, A.K.A. me, with an offer to reopen my account. I'm pretty certain the copper would be replaced or the loop rerouted to provide me with flawless service because I could always point to the agreement I made with Bellsouth to provide me DSL for x amount of dollars a month. I mentioned nothing about speeds. It's the assumption that if I am within a certain specification (loop length) that DSL should be available as an "always on" connection. I am not paying for an SLA or anything, just a reasonable level of service.
My main concern is this: What should a customer expect from an ISP that leases phone lines that can become unusable in the blink of an eye? Wouldn't they have a stipulation in their agreement that would empower the customer (acting in good faith, paying a premium for a service) to have any sort of assurance the Telco won't just decide one day to shut the lights out?
As far as any question whether I have a short or faulty jack or connection; I am about as sure as can be the problem isnt in the house. I have tested from the NID and had 2 Covad techs do the same. The last one even installed a splitter at the NID so it's pretty much a direct line to the NID. The house is no longer a factor in the equation. The stats are as follows: 13-15 dB Down @ 3004 sync; Attenuation stays at about 45dB. The problem isn't attaining a sync. It isn't even holding on to that sync. The problem is holding the sync with any kind of load on the line. It appears the SNR degrades to the point of dropped sync probably due to a bridge tap or faulty hardware. I don't really know because my resources are limited. should I assume my ISP is in the same boat as me? The line was reprovisioned to 1.5Mb/s but the sync is still dropping alot. Maybe I should have seen if it worked at 768 down, but then I would be paying full price for gimped service.
It's absolute nonsense that Earthlink claims they provided their "best effort" at support and declared the circuit not feasible. For one thing this is only the second issue I have had in more than a year and they milked about 8 trouble tickets out of it. Another thing is that their flawed support system puts too many cooks to one pot and nobody gets close to the solution because 99% of the techs who worked the case have no clue whatsoever about anything except meeting their call quotas. I am posting this thread to serve as a warning that this situation can occur very easily to anyone who is dealing with a middleman like Earthlink and while they had their heyday, they have fallen far in the past few years.
I don't know if there's anything more I can do except try to inform the next guy. |
|
Splitpair
Premium
join:2000-07-29
Cow Towne
 ·T-Mobile US
·T-Mobile US
·AT&T Southeast
edit:
May 14th, @09:10AM
| said by MIA_Dogs :Thanks for the replies. As much as I understand the Telco's right to route their service as they see fit, the subsequent loss of service is fair game to be labelled TNF (by the ISP, mind you) and swept under the rug. The industry practice is if a loop is extended is to do a cutover to a new cable be it in or out and due to the type of work and for continunity of service the old cable is bridged tapped until the work is completed and then once completed the old cable is cut free leaving the loop as it was before the cut only with new copper in place.
Truth is nowadays Telco's be they ILEC's or indies are doing everything they can to shorten the copper loop as it is the loss's in that loop that are the block to providing higher speeds.
Any work that would modify a loop to the point that it would be no longer useable to the CLEC for pre-existing service the ILEC is required by the FCC to notify the CLEC well in advance of any changes to allow the CLEC time to make arraignments to provide a co-operative cutover.
Wayne
--
If you cannot fix it with a buttset and some bennies you ain't a technician.
|
|
Splitpair
Premium
join:2000-07-29
Cow Towne
·T-Mobile US
·T-Mobile US
·AT&T Southeast
edit:
May 14th, @09:23AM
| reply to Doctor Olds
said by Doctor Olds : There are no pre or post conditioning clauses so they won't do it. Regards, Doctor Olds Incorrect if the loop met the requirements when turned up and later does not it will be repaired until it does. There are minimum requirements in writing that the loop must be maintained.
Wayne
--
If you cannot fix it with a buttset and some bennies you ain't a technician.
|
|
MIA_Dogs
join:2007-05-08
Miami, FL
·EarthLink
| This is good stuff. I think I will google that.
The strangest thing happened last night. My DSL only disconnected once in about 7 hours although there were times where it was very slow (I was almost certain the DSL sync was going to be lost during those times, but like I mentioned, the connection only dropped once).
It's a funny coincidence that after all my ranting and raving my DSL line just kind of got better by itself. Of course I'm not crossing my fingers, but perhaps you have a point about Bellsouth shuffling the wires around for a bit - almost a month and a half - before they put everything back into place. The only thing that makes me uneasy is the poor performance of the connection, but I can live with it if it doesn't drop anymore. |
|
Splitpair
Premium
join:2000-07-29
Cow Towne
·T-Mobile US
·T-Mobile US
·AT&T Southeast
| said by MIA_Dogs :This is good stuff. I think I will google that. »wholesale.att.com/reference_libr···ref.html
Wayne
--
If you cannot fix it with a buttset and some bennies you ain't a technician.
|
|
RogerADSL
join:2004-12-10
Lawrenceville, GA | good stuff Wayne! |
|
Doctor Olds
I Need A Remedy For What's Ailing Me.
Premium,VIP
join:2001-04-19
1970 442 W30
clubs:
edit:
May 14th, @07:56PM
| reply to Splitpair
said by Splitpair :The industry practice is if a loop is extended is to do a cutover to a new cable be it in or out and due to the type of work and for continunity of service the old cable is bridged tapped until the work is completed and then once completed the old cable is cut free leaving the loop as it was before the cut only with new copper in place. Truth is nowadays Telco's be they ILEC's or indies are doing everything they can to shorten the copper loop as it is the loss's in that loop that are the block to providing higher speeds. Any work that would modify a loop to the point that it would be no longer useable to the CLEC for pre-existing service the ILEC is required by the FCC to notify the CLEC well in advance of any changes to allow the CLEC time to make arraignments to provide a co-operative cutover. Wayne I wonder why AT&T and Bellsouth before that aren't the good employee that follows the book all the time? It seems they can't stop from being fined for ignoring what they publish and when they have guidelines they don't want to follow, they just say "What Guidelines? We are the phone company, we don't have to follow the law, we just make it up as we go along.
»www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=be···G=Search
Results 1 - 10 of about 129,000
»www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=AT···G=Search
Results 1 - 10 of about 178,000
I now remember why I told the AT&T salesperson (telemarketer that called me last week) that under no circumstances would I use any more of their services than I was forced to by regulations set forth by the Federal Government making me have to purchase a AT&T POTS phone line just so I can keep my current ISP's DSL product. It really was nice how she understood fully and stopped the hard sale routine on DSL and Wireless bundles that she was pushing.
--
What’s the point of owning a supercar if you can’t scare yourself stupid from time to time? |
|
Doctor Olds
I Need A Remedy For What's Ailing Me.
Premium,VIP
join:2001-04-19
1970 442 W30
clubs:
| reply to Splitpair
said by Splitpair :said by Doctor Olds : There are no pre or post conditioning clauses so they won't do it. Regards, Doctor Olds Incorrect if the loop met the requirements when turned up and later does not it will be repaired until it does. There are minimum requirements in writing that the loop must be maintained. Wayne Way Wrong. You can read this Forum all the way back to 2000 and all too easily see people that were screwed by the Telco (any of them) changing the lines distance or saying nothings wrong even while it remained nearly unusable or was made unusable and the Telco did not restore or fix it or correct it then in some cases TNF'd the line instead. The customer had to either go to Cable or was forced to go direct to the Telco for DSL in order to magically get the line fixed.
--
What’s the point of owning a supercar if you can’t scare yourself stupid from time to time? |
|
MIA_Dogs
join:2007-05-08
Miami, FL
·EarthLink
| I have to thank everyone again for the good discussion regarding this DSL problem.
My line is still up by the way and seems to have minor issues, but has stayed on for the most part. It bothers me that the problems persisted for almost a month and a half where I couldn't stay connected for more than 10 minutes and even now it isn't working all that great.
My gut tells me Bellsouth either screwed something up (then ninja-fixed it) or seriously procrastinated in deploying some new lines while keeping me on a super long one in the meantime. If you count the hours spent on Earthlink's side trying to provide support as well as the torment and time spent by me, it's just not worth it for either side.
Bellsouth /AT&T are bad news, but if I want DSL it has to go through their network. I was very close to switching to cable, but right now I need to keep the land line. I'm going to keep my fingers crossed that Bellsouth doesn't try to pull something like this again. One more time and I am calling Comcast to undoubtedly jump over to a new set of problems.
I 'm going to go check for BBB complaints against Bellsouth concerning situations like these where they try (presumably) to cause problems to get people to sign up for their (BS) service. I surely looked into it when the EL support wasn't getting anywhere. I'll post any that I find. |
|
RogerADSL
join:2004-12-10
Lawrenceville, GA | EarthLink's outsourced support doesn't know the questions to ask to AT&T, that's the problem. What does some tech in the Phillipines or India know about your problem? They don't know how to troubleshoot or fill out a ticket with the ILEC. |
|
Doctor Olds
I Need A Remedy For What's Ailing Me.
Premium,VIP
join:2001-04-19
1970 442 W30
clubs: | Tier 3 aka TRON knows how to do that and more.  Getting a hold of them and then getting them to do it is another story.  |
|
RogerADSL
join:2004-12-10
Lawrenceville, GA | add most to every line of my last post...  |
|
bobx
join:2001-02-11
Novato, CA
| reply to Doctor Olds
I had a line problem which lasted 9 months. Verizon is the local Telco. I was fortunate that I had an extra unused pair and I was able to convince the Verizon tech to switch the line. He said it would likely not help but surprised it cleaned up the signal and I have been good for almost 2 years now.
The Verizon tech flat out told me on one of his many visits that if I had Verizon and not Earthlink as my provider the problem would be fixed quickly. He implied that what he could do for a Verizon customer was more than an Earthlink customer.
Bob |
|
MIA_Dogs
join:2007-05-08
Miami, FL
·EarthLink
edit:
May 30th, @01:19AM
| That's absolutely correct. My DSL is still disconnecting so my father called in and got a Covad and a Bellsouth tech to come over and check it out today. Well, that was a lot of wasted man hours. What a waste. They did all sorts of finger pointing even though this issue exists from beyond the NID. Covad's either scared of calling out Bellsouth or seriously apathetic about what can be done. I wasn't there, but my father basically got the Covad tech to admit Bellsouth shafts non-subscribers this way and he was powerless to do anything about it.
Bellsouth's tech found no problem of course  . I was a bit regretful I couldn't be there to document what tests they were running / get a straight answer why DSL isn't working consistently (busy at work unfortunately). As it stands, I have no idea what "line tests" the Bellsouth tech has run, but I bet he hasn't bothered to find out why DSL won't stay connected.
I really don't want to deal with Bellsouth, but I'm not really sure about going to cable. I am considering running the underground cable from the NID to the main interface myself (I know easier said than done) or hiring someone just for the peace of mind that I have done everything in my power to fix my problem. Anything I do now is going to be expensive. I know that for sure. |
|
