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Help me find the appropriate DSL modem for my home setup »
« Is sympatico Lying about bandwidth usage?  
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nanook
ex redbaron
Premium
join:2007-12-02
·Bell Sympatico
·TekSavvy Solutions..


edit:
May 13th, @09:00AM

The DPI arms race escalates

Throttle 5 million P2P users with $800K DPI monster
quote:
Procera Networks will announce today a new standard in deep packet inspection (DPI) gear: an 80Gbps monster called the PacketLogic PL10000 that is targeted at tier-1 network operators. At up to $800,000 a unit, these aren't cheap, but when you want to throttle, inspect, and shape traffic in real-time on a major network, this is now the fastest thing on the market (and by a large margin)...

The PL10000 can handle up to 5 million subscribers and can track 48 million real-time data flows. That's certainly a potent piece of hardware, but larger ISPs will need more. That's why Procera designed the new machines with full support for synchronizing traffic flows where return traffic might be routed to a different PacketLogic machine. The machine receiving the return traffic can make the machine monitoring the outbound traffic aware that it sees the other half of a TCP/IP conversation, for example, giving the devices more accuracy than those which might only have access to one side. The capability also incurs overhead of only 2-6 percent, far better than the 25 or 50 percent sometimes seen in competing products.

DPI gear in general is astonishing technology, able to drill down to the packet level in real time, but the PL10000 can do this at 80Gbps with 96 percent accuracy. But how does it fare with P2P content, especially when it's encrypted? This is one of the key issues for ISPs using DPI gear as a less-expensive alternative to increasing capacity. I spoke James Brear, Procera's CEO, and Jon Lindén, the VP of Product Management, about the issue. While they did not break out specific accuracy numbers on P2P, they indicated that Procera was quite good even at sniffing out encrypted P2P traffic.

Breaking such encryption in real-time isn't currently possible, nor is it desirable from a privacy perspective, but Procera doesn't need to; most P2P protocols can be detected simply by analyzing header information, handshake peculiarities, or the way in which a particular application exchanges encryption keys. Such telltale traces can give away various kinds of encrypted traffic, and while the information within remains secure, the entire flow can be shaped or blocked if desired by the ISP...


Gokuu

join:2001-08-27

Re: The DPI arms war escalates

I found this paragraph amusing:
quote:
But Brear and Lindén made the case that this shouldn't be seen as a looming consumer nightmare, nor should it be seen as having anything to do with network neutrality. In their view, DPI is a competitive tool for ISPs in several ways. First, it allows ISPs to set charge for "services" like faster VoIP or gaming. Second, it can speed up the network by shaping P2P and other high-bandwidth applications at peak times, or enforce user quotas and bandwidth limits. Finally, DPI can be a security tool that gives ISPs a way to shut down DDoS attacks and viruses propagating through the network.

Radar73

join:2008-01-20
Ajax, ON
reply to nanook
Can you imagine if Bell purchased one of these for every BAS in Ontario and Quebec? Those costs would be pretty high. What does a run of fibre cost?


nanook
ex redbaron
Premium
join:2007-12-02
·Bell Sympatico
·TekSavvy Solutions..

said by Gokuu See Profile :

I found this paragraph amusing:
quote:
But Brear and Lindén made the case that this shouldn't be seen as a looming consumer nightmare, nor should it be seen as having anything to do with network neutrality...
What else can they say? DPI fundamentally conflicts with network neutrality.

said by Radar73 See Profile :

Can you imagine if Bell purchased one of these for every BAS in Ontario and Quebec?
Why would they? If "The PL10000 can handle up to 5 million subscribers and can track 48 million real-time data flows" then one PL10000 is enough to handle 3x or 4x Bell's current Sympatico user base in ON and QC. At $800k the capital cost is less than $1 per user.


Cliffy03
Premium
join:2003-06-29
Kitchener, ON
clubs:
Routing everyone in Ontario and Quebec through one of these boxes would worry me more about a single point of failure.

Radar73

join:2008-01-20
Ajax, ON


edit:
May 12th, @06:09PM

reply to nanook
said by nanook See Profile :

Why would they? If "The PL10000 can handle up to 5 million subscribers and can track 48 million real-time data flows" then one PL10000 is enough to handle 3x or 4x Bell's current Sympatico user base in ON and QC. At $800k the capital cost is less than $1 per user.
I guess that's true. One new DPI box at 151 Front would do the job instead of the many they must have now at the various BAS's. Of course, once the CRTC orders them to remove DPI they won't need any


nanook
ex redbaron
Premium
join:2007-12-02
·Bell Sympatico
·TekSavvy Solutions..


edit:
May 12th, @06:12PM

reply to Cliffy03
said by Cliffy03 See Profile :

Routing everyone in Ontario and Quebec through one of these boxes would worry me more about a single point of failure.
Only if Bell's fallback is to stop all traffic rather than to patch it across the failed box But if you are still concerned, put two boxes in parallel. Still only $1.6M or ~$1/subscriber.


TilhasBB
Formally Goden99
Premium
join:2000-08-05
canada

edit:
May 12th, @06:24PM

Just tell me where they are going to put these boxes. I promise I just want to take a look at it...


An Onymous

@teksavvy.com
I'll tell them where to put their boxes away from the sun light if you catch my drift.


Crocky

@rcn.com

reply to nanook
This situation works exactly the same as the virus wars days of old and the spam wars of today. Eventually P2P protocols will be able to transmutate their traffic signatures at whim and application developers will push out new versions with every DPI filter update that is released. It will ebb back and forth back and forth and nobody really "wins" except the DPI filter vendors.

In this case the only difference is that everyone agrees that spam and virii are evil, peer to peer traffic is the future. No forward momentum in this war can be achieved with traditional methods like the above. It can only happen when ISPs wake up and stop trying to prevent users from accessing content they want to access.

Name

join:2008-03-28

reply to Gokuu
DPI is a competitive tool for ISPs in several ways. First, it allows ISPs to set charge for "services" like faster VoIP or gaming.
Ah, yes, the new style of "innovation" in the service sector. Take something that is a fundamental feature of your product--such as consistent travel times for UDP streams--invest a small amount of money to sabotage the features people want to use, then sell unmolested service back to the consumer at immense profit. It's a great way to pad executive bonuses, but it brings progress to a standstill.

With ideologies like this in the boardroom, it's no wonder why Asia is going to eat the west alive economically.
--
Coridon Henshaw -=- »www.talisiorder.ca

ScytheNoire

join:2008-04-08
Windsor, ON

What do you mean "going to at the west alive"?
They are already doing it!
We are so far behind, and North America just keeps falling further and further behind due to dumb politicians, artificial limits, and corporate greed.
You need look no further than the amount of money wasted on lawyers over things like copyright and pantents to see how screwed up things are and how far behind we are in terms of logical thinking.
2012 can't come soon enough. Bring on the Apocalypse! We deserve it!


Stewy
Premium
join:2007-12-12
Kitchener, ON

reply to Name
said by Name See Profile :

DPI is a competitive tool for ISPs in several ways. First, it allows ISPs to set charge for "services" like faster VoIP or gaming.
Ah, yes, the new style of "innovation" in the service sector. Take something that is a fundamental feature of your product--such as consistent travel times for UDP streams--invest a small amount of money to sabotage the features people want to use, then sell unmolested service back to the consumer at immense profit. It's a great way to pad executive bonuses, but it brings progress to a standstill.

With ideologies like this in the boardroom, it's no wonder why Asia is going to eat the west alive economically.
Well said, but I've been saying the same thing for a while. On the other hand I hope that the CRTC doesn't force Cable internet to stop throttling. If that's the case I'm going to bet that the cable carriers are going to find a solution to their "congested networks" in a hurry.

jfmezei
Premium
join:2007-01-03
Beaconsfield, QC
·TekSavvy Solutions..


moderated:
May 13th, @04:49PM

reply to nanook
Re: The DPI arms race escalates

Found this doozie in the news section of DSLR:

quote:
Charter Starts Selling Your Browsing History
Don't worry, it's all to bring you an 'enhanced online experience...'
09:07AM Tuesday May 13 2008 by Karl
tags: business · cable · Charter Pipeline
Tipped by cjhorh See Profile

Behavioral advertising companies like NebuAD place deep packet inspection hardware on the ISP network, which monitors which sites you visit and for how long. ISPs then get paid for this data, which is then used to deliver customized ads to subscribers. I've discussed ho w there's a growing number of ISPs who've started using this technology, but don't properl y inform users they're doing so. The opt-out process also has problems, relying on cookies that only opt you out of ad delivery, not online usage tracking.

So with Bell having installed DPI equipment, they could do the same and even sell usage information for traffic of users who are not even Bell customers.

If those boxes are installed, what is to stop Bell from adding software features to those boxes ?

ancodia

join:2006-07-10
·TekSavvy Solutions..
·Cogeco Cable


edit:
May 13th, @04:46PM

There is nothing to stop them as long as the data can't be traced to an individual. example, 20% of our customers visit site X between 6 and 9 pm.
Bell also plans to sell the same type info when they roll out IPTV. They will be able to sell viewing statistics to the highest bidder. Everyones IPTV viewing habits will be collected and sold. That is the #1 reason why I will never subscribe to IPTV.

recneps

join:2006-06-24
Whitby, ON
·TekSavvy Solutions..
·Rogers Hi-Speed

reply to nanook
"You need look no further than the amount of money wasted on lawyers over things like copyright and pantents to see how screwed up things are and how far behind we are in terms of logical thinking."

The lawyers aren't complaining.

the cerberus

join:2007-10-16
Richmond Hill, ON


edit:
May 13th, @10:12PM

reply to ancodia
said by ancodia See Profile :

There is nothing to stop them as long as the data can't be traced to an individual. example, 20% of our customers visit site X between 6 and 9 pm.
Bell also plans to sell the same type info when they roll out IPTV. They will be able to sell viewing statistics to the highest bidder. Everyones IPTV viewing habits will be collected and sold. That is the #1 reason why I will never subscribe to IPTV.
What are TV ratings....
They know what your watching on cable/antenna/satellite, they don't know its specifically you, but a person in Canada. Otherwise how would they have on the news how many viewers tuned into a show, and that reason they use... to cancel shows due to poor ratings.

Also if one torrents a show, it actually hurts the ratings, since theres no evidence that you tuned in and watched it.


An Onymous

@teksavvy.com

Actually they don't know what your are watching on TV from off the air/cable. There is no feedback path to the stations.

The TV rating system is done by sampling. See:»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nielsen_Ratings

They can keep track off what you are watching for IPTV, Tivo DVR boxes etc.

I guess this really calls for encryption across Bell's last mile. Hopefully some sort of L2 tunneling/VPN that TSI can supply as an extra service at some point.


Paulius

join:2008-01-21
Lasalle, QC

reply to Radar73
Re: The DPI arms war escalates

said by Radar73 See Profile :

Can you imagine if Bell purchased one of these for every BAS in Ontario and Quebec? Those costs would be pretty high. What does a run of fibre cost?
At 80GB/s, they would probably need only two or three of these devices for the whole country. Granted, traffic would need to be sent to these specific locations.
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