Matt
Take me down to the paradise city
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join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC
 ·North State Commun..
1 edit |  Good questions
It's not hard to detect illegal traffic, even encrypted. The weakness is in the initial HTTP request for the torrent file ... and the fact that the provider can see WHAT SITE you requested the torrent from.
Downloading »www.leettorrentsite.com/air-supp···.torrent is pretty damn obvious.
This becomes even easier if they "whitelist" certain bittorrent providers ... I think this asks the bigger question, what will the tax to be whitelisted be?
I think the best way to do this is to not degrade any traffic, but start an independent coalition who tracks central illegal file sharing that all providers subscribe to. If they can do it now with web content filters, they can do it with bittorrent sites. Hell, the system can even feed the list of torrent sites to a human to analyse easily. If the site is password protected and refuses to provide the organization with a login to view the content, you automatically make the blacklist.
I find it interesting that Comcast has all but admitted they are not concerned with limiting traffic at the node, but instead are basically admitting they are trying to decrease their peering costs. |
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SilverSurfer
join:2007-08-19
| said by Matt  :It's not hard to detect illegal traffic, even encrypted. Hahahahahahaha Hahahahahaha That's a good one. You must get a paycheck from an ISP. That's why there are so many false positives and Comcrap just throttles/blocks arbitrarily. |
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TKJunkMail
Enjoy the sun
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Avalon, NJ
 ·Sprint Mobile Broa..
 ·Comcast
| said by SilverSurfer :said by Matt :It's not hard to detect illegal traffic, even encrypted. Hahahahahahaha Hahahahahaha That's a good one. You must get a paycheck from an ISP. That's why there are so many false positives and Comcrap just throttles/blocks arbitrarily. Matte is right and you are wrong. You don't have to see inside encrypted packets to know where they are going. You start up a blacklist/whitelist system and just don't allow people to get to unwanted torrent sites. And you can also block proxy servers for those who want to go that route.
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SilverSurfer
join:2007-08-19
| said by TKJunkMail :Matte is right and you are wrong. Oh OK. And up is down and black is white. Because you and your golf buddies say so. |
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HEDP
join:2008-04-27
Miami, FL
| He is actually correct because P2P traffic has a distinct signature. Only a few other programs open hundreds of connections at once in 1-10 minute intervals, but none ever send traffic from all different IPs at once and on specific port ranges and even random ports can still be detected by usage patterns.
Does not matter if the data is encrypted or not, clearly it's some form of server or distribution client which is what BT pretty much is. |
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Matt
Take me down to the paradise city
Premium
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC
·North State Commun..
| reply to SilverSurfer
said by SilverSurfer :said by TKJunkMail :Matte is right and you are wrong. Oh OK. And up is down and black is white. Because you and your golf buddies say so. And personal attacks completely validate your point. They also make you look cool!  |
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swhx7
Premium
join:2006-07-23
Elbonia
·RoadRunner Cable
| reply to TKJunkMail
said by TKJunkMail :You start up a blacklist/whitelist system and just don't allow people to get to unwanted torrent sites. And you can also block proxy servers for those who want to go that route.
This kind of proposal is exactly why we need neutrality legislation. If an ISP starts blocking access to sites that it considers "unwanted" (though the customers want them), then it is no longer an internet provider. At that point it's providing a walled-garden service - even worse than AOL and Compuserve, more like old-school TV except served over TCP/IP.
How much of a site's content would have to be allegedly infringing before it would be banned, under your proposal? A majority? A few files?
If ISPs are allowed to get away with that, the door is wide open for ISPs blocking anything they choose for any reason. They'll start blocking sites they consider "extremist" or not "family friendly"; sites that criticize the ISP; those which explain how to get around the blocking. Under pressure from the government, they'd soon also block anything unfavorable to the current party in power. Eventually access would be limited to sites they could make a specific profit on.
That's fine for telco fanatics and other big-company shills and stockholders, and would delight totalitarians. It would be deadly for democracy, freedom of communication and the progress of technology. |
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funchords
Hello
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join:2001-03-11
Washington, DC
·Verizon Online DSL
 ·Skype
1 edit | reply to Matt
said by Matt :Hell, the system can even feed the list of torrent sites to a human to analyse easily. If the site is password protected and refuses to provide the organization with a login to view the content, you automatically make the blacklist. Because protecting dead-Walt's income stream is more important than protecting the public's right to privacy? (Other reasons not withstanding...)
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Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
HTTP is the new Bandwidth Hog...
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Gogo1
join:2004-05-27
Brooklyn, NY
| reply to TKJunkMail
said by TKJunkMail /bquote :Matte is right and you are wrong. You don't have to see inside encrypted packets to know where they are going. You start up a blacklist/whitelist system and just don't allow people to get to unwanted torrent sites. And you can also block proxy servers for those who want to go that route. Isnt this getting into a dangerous area though censoring websites because some of the links send you to copyrighted material? Where is the line drawn in terms of what proportion of the content being copyrighted material gets them blacklisted? 1%? 5%?
And censoring proxies? Is Tor going to be censored?
This doesnt seem like a good route to go down. |
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Crookshanks
join:2008-02-04
Endicott, NY
| reply to HEDP
said by HEDP :He is actually correct because P2P traffic has a distinct signature. Only a few other programs open hundreds of connections at once in 1-10 minute intervals, but none ever send traffic from all different IPs at once and on specific port ranges and even random ports can still be detected by usage patterns. The GP didn't say that you can't detect P2P traffic because it's encrypted. He said that you can't detect illegal p2p traffic because it's encrypted.
If I obtain a torrent file via ssl and encrypt all of my p2p connections (including the connection to the tracker), exactly how do you go about figuring out whether or not my p2p usage is piracy or something completely legal? |
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Crookshanks
join:2008-02-04
Endicott, NY
| reply to TKJunkMail
said by TKJunkMail :Matte is right and you are wrong. You don't have to see inside encrypted packets to know where they are going. You start up a blacklist/whitelist system and just don't allow people to get to unwanted torrent sites. And you can also block proxy servers for those who want to go that route. The day that my ISP tells me what sites I can and can not go to and bans me from using proxies is the day that I leave them and find another ISP.
Seriously. A blacklist? WTF? Going to the Pirate Bay's website is not in of itself an illegal activity. |
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Matt
Take me down to the paradise city
Premium
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC
·North State Commun..
| reply to Crookshanks
said by Crookshanks :said by HEDP :He is actually correct because P2P traffic has a distinct signature. Only a few other programs open hundreds of connections at once in 1-10 minute intervals, but none ever send traffic from all different IPs at once and on specific port ranges and even random ports can still be detected by usage patterns. The GP didn't say that you can't detect P2P traffic because it's encrypted. He said that you can't detect illegal p2p traffic because it's encrypted. If I obtain a torrent file via ssl and encrypt all of my p2p connections (including the connection to the tracker), exactly how do you go about figuring out whether or not my p2p usage is piracy or something completely legal? Do you really think you're a special snowflake and the anti-piracy companies don't have access to the same private trackers that you do?
All they need to know is what site you're going to ... SSL won't help there. All they have to do is hack a torrent client to not do anything but join the swarm for each torrent and then send a nice C&D or DMCA letter to your ISP.
This isn't rocket science. |
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Matt
Take me down to the paradise city
Premium
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC
·North State Commun..
| reply to Crookshanks
said by Crookshanks :said by TKJunkMail :Matte is right and you are wrong. You don't have to see inside encrypted packets to know where they are going. You start up a blacklist/whitelist system and just don't allow people to get to unwanted torrent sites. And you can also block proxy servers for those who want to go that route. The day that my ISP tells me what sites I can and can not go to and bans me from using proxies is the day that I leave them and find another ISP. Seriously. A blacklist? WTF? Going to the Pirate Bay's website is not in of itself an illegal activity. No, going to the Pirate Bay's website is not. However, joining a torrent swarm and transferring copyrighted files is.
BTW, good luck finding another ISP. If you're lucky, you have a choice of an ILEC or an MSO. I don't think pirating files on EVDO or dial-up would be too much fun. |
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Crookshanks
join:2008-02-04
Endicott, NY
| reply to Matt
I guess you've never heard of https?
said by Matt :I think the best way to do this is to not degrade any traffic, but start an independent coalition who tracks central illegal file sharing that all providers subscribe to. If they can do it now with web content filters, they can do it with bittorrent sites. Hell, the system can even feed the list of torrent sites to a human to analyse easily. If the site is password protected and refuses to provide the organization with a login to view the content, you automatically make the blacklist. And what happens when people start sharing torrent files on IRC instead of TPB? Gonna blacklist IRC too? |
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Crookshanks
join:2008-02-04
Endicott, NY
| reply to Matt
said by Matt :Do you really think you're a special snowflake and the anti-piracy companies don't have access to the same private trackers that you do? All they need to know is what site you're going to ... SSL won't help there. All they have to do is hack a torrent client to not do anything but join the swarm for each torrent and then send a nice C&D or DMCA letter to your ISP. This isn't rocket science. If it isn't rocket science then why haven't they been able to make a dent in copyright infringement even though the vast majority of the people engaged in it aren't taking active steps to hide their activity?
Do you really think they know about EVERY single private tracker and IRC channel out there?
And your idea that my ISP should be monitoring the sites that I go to and the files that I download is downright Orwellian. Should Verizon also pro-actively monitor voice conversations just in case somebody is discussing a plan to assassinate the President or fly airplanes into buildings? |
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TKJunkMail
Enjoy the sun
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join:2002-03-03
Avalon, NJ
·Sprint Mobile Broa..
·Comcast
| said by Crookshanks : Should Verizon also pro-actively monitor voice conversations just in case somebody is discussing a plan to assassinate the President or fly airplanes into buildings? The NSA already does that. No need for Verizon to do anything but stay out of the way.
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Crookshanks
join:2008-02-04
Endicott, NY
| reply to Matt
said by Matt :No, going to the Pirate Bay's website is not. However, joining a torrent swarm and transferring copyrighted files is. Indeed it is. But you still haven't made a case for why my ISP should be blacklisting anything, given that there is actually legal content on TPB and that the mere act of going to that particular website is not a crime in any civilized country.
said by Matt :BTW, good luck finding another ISP. If you're lucky, you have a choice of an ILEC or an MSO. I don't think pirating files on EVDO or dial-up would be too much fun. I don't have to, because my ISP isn't trying to undercut steaming video to protect a cable television business (Roadrunner's purposed 40GB cap) or getting into bed with the content industry (AT&T) for reasons known only to them. My ISP has already come out and said that they don't think it's their job to police the internet. |
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Crookshanks
join:2008-02-04
Endicott, NY
| reply to TKJunkMail
said by TKJunkMail :The NSA already does that. No need for Verizon to do anything but stay out of the way. Do you have a citation for that or are you just pulling it out of a dark place where the sun doesn't shine? |
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TKJunkMail
Enjoy the sun
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Avalon, NJ
·Sprint Mobile Broa..
·Comcast
| reply to Crookshanks
said by Crookshanks :said by Matt :No, going to the Pirate Bay's website is not. However, joining a torrent swarm and transferring copyrighted files is. Indeed it is. But you still haven't made a case for why my ISP should be blacklisting anything, given that there is actually legal content on TPB and that the mere act of going to that particular website is not a crime in any civilized country. A small analogy might explain it. A pawn shop sells a lot of legitimate goods. But when they also fence stolen goods knowingly, the police shut them down. The Pirate Bay is like a pawn shop that may have some legit content, but they also knowingly(hell, they brag about it) offer access to content that is copyrighted. They deserve to be shut down. The defense that some of the content is legit is no defense under the law.
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My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page |
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Matt
Take me down to the paradise city
Premium
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC
·North State Commun..
| said by TKJunkMail :said by Crookshanks :said by Matt :No, going to the Pirate Bay's website is not. However, joining a torrent swarm and transferring copyrighted files is. Indeed it is. But you still haven't made a case for why my ISP should be blacklisting anything, given that there is actually legal content on TPB and that the mere act of going to that particular website is not a crime in any civilized country. A small analogy might explain it. A pawn shop sells a lot of legitimate goods. But when they also fence stolen goods knowingly, the police shut them down. The Pirate Bay is like a pawn shop that may have some legit content, but they also knowingly(hell, they brag about it) offer access to content that is copyrighted. They deserve to be shut down. The defense that some of the content is legit is no defense under the law. This is where Tk and I disagree.
I don't think they should be shut down because what they do is not illegal in their country. We have no right to tell another country to take action on something that is illegal in OUR country but not theirs. That would be like shutting down the Hash Houses in Amsterdam because Marijuana is illegal here.
However, it *IS* illegal in our country, so I think the RIAA or MPAA has every right to go after US Citizens who willing use TPB to commit copyright infringement. I don't agree with the methods they use however, as they are nothing more than extortionist organizations. I agree with a 3 strikes type system though. Get 3 DMCA letters, you lose the ability to get an internet connection through that company for a set number of years, 3-5 years sounds good. |
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