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larmarine03

@verizon.net

Ethernet VS MoCA

I am a new to all this Fios stuff. I have read some of the other post and done some of my own investigating in the ONT. I noticed the Tech that set my equipment connected my router op with the coax wire to the MoCA connection. I know the router can be connected either way but I have some questions.

First, which connection is the better of the two. Second, I do not have the VT service yet because of franchise rights. I am told that the TV service should be available some time this summer and i plan on getting it at that time. When you get the TV service do your set top boxes connect to the ONT though a coax splitter of do you connect them to the router which will split the signal to the boxes?

While talking to the Tech he gave me the impression that he would just split the coax line coming out of the ONT to go to the router and all the TV's.

I guess another part to this story/question would be; does the router become part of the link of the ONT and set top box for the multimedia DVR or the on demand where a data connection would come into play? Also if the router is in play for the tv connection do I need to be concerned with getting all my things connected. I have this concern because of all the talk of people having to bridge other routers to the one provided by Verizon and the talk of the small NAT table. I don't know any thing about a NAT table but from reading i thing it has something to do with the IP address the router assigns.

Any one that can help with any of this would be much appreciated.

Thanks in advance.


SqueeksDad
I Miss Her
Premium
join:2002-09-14
Hyattsville, MD
Long story made short, better of the two would be ethernet IF you wanted to use your own router of choice and put the Actiontec next in line. The actiontec is only going to be used for guide data and on-demand, so IF you wanted to use your own router with ethernet you could unplug the actiontec and put it away in a closet somewhere, until TV becomes available.

The coax comes out of the ONT and is split from there to all of the TV's and to the Actiontec. The actiontec can then use that coax to talk to the set top boxes and to Verizon to get on-demand and guide, also firmware upgrades, etc.
--
Ways to Relieve Stress #10. Make up a language and ask people for directions.


More Fiber
Premium,MVM
join:2005-09-26
West Chester, PA
kudos:32
reply to larmarine03
said by larmarine03 :

I guess another part to this story/question would be; does the router become part of the link of the ONT and set top box for the multimedia DVR or the on demand where a data connection would come into play?
The router comes into to play for guide data and VOD which pass from the STBs, over the MOCA LAN, through the router, and over your WAN connection.

The router is not involved in media sharing. The STBs communicate between themselves over the MOCA LAN.

said by larmarine03 :

Also if the router is in play for the tv connection do I need to be concerned with getting all my things connected. I have this concern because of all the talk of people having to bridge other routers to the one provided by Verizon and the talk of the small NAT table. I don't know any thing about a NAT table but from reading i thing it has something to do with the IP address the router assigns.
Not sure what you mean by "getting all my things connected". You simply run cat5 from your PCs or connect wirelessly to the Actiontec router. If you have more wired devices than the 4 LAN ports on the Actiontec, then you will need a switch to expand the number of LAN ports.

NAT stands for Network Address Translation. Here is a full explanation:
»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_ad ··· nslation

A broadband router normally obtains one dynamic external IP address. The Actiontec router will request a WAN address and VZ will automatically assign one from one of these ranges (71.x.x.x, 72.x.x.x, 96.x.x.x).

On your internal LAN, you may have many devices. Your router will normally assign IP addresses (e.g. 192.168.1.x) to devices on your internal LAN. The router has to keep track of each connection between an internal IP address and external (WAN) IP address. This is what the NAT table is used for. The Actiontec supports only 96 concurrent connections. This may be adequate for some users, but is inadequate for P2P file sharing.


mysteryfiostech

@verizon.net
reply to larmarine03
no disrespect, but judging from your post, the actiontec and moca will suit you just fine.

and contrary to more fiber's post, the router is involved in media sharing.


More Fiber
Premium,MVM
join:2005-09-26
West Chester, PA
kudos:32
said by mysteryfiostech :

and contrary to more fiber's post, the router is involved in media sharing.
mysterfiostech, would you care to back that up with fact?
What function in the Actiontech is involved with media sharing that can not be supplied by another router?


mysteryfiostech

@verizon.net
said by More Fiber:

said by mysteryfiostech :

and contrary to more fiber's post, the router is involved in media sharing.
mysterfiostech, would you care to back that up with fact?
What function in the Actiontech is involved with media sharing that can not be supplied by another router?
the boxes communicate to each other via the moca network which is managed by the actiontec and it's integrated moca to ethernet bridge. multimedia dvr functionality including the media manager feature and the multi-room viewing is handled via the actiontec.

if you want to get nick-picky, another router would work but you would need integrate the coax network in either with a moca nim or a dumbed down actiontec.

there is NO direct set top to set top communication.
those are facts.

kalanic00

join:2006-07-16
Anchorage, AK
Reviews:
·Verizon Broadban..
said by mysteryfiostech :

said by More Fiber:

said by mysteryfiostech :

and contrary to more fiber's post, the router is involved in media sharing.
mysterfiostech, would you care to back that up with fact?
What function in the Actiontech is involved with media sharing that can not be supplied by another router?
the boxes communicate to each other via the moca network which is managed by the actiontec and it's integrated moca to ethernet bridge. multimedia dvr functionality including the media manager feature and the multi-room viewing is handled via the actiontec.

if you want to get nick-picky, another router would work but you would need integrate the coax network in either with a moca nim or a dumbed down actiontec.

there is NO direct set top to set top communication.
those are facts.
Blam!


More Fiber
Premium,MVM
join:2005-09-26
West Chester, PA
kudos:32

1 edit
reply to mysteryfiostech
said by mysteryfiostech :

the boxes communicate to each other via the MOCA network which is managed by the Actiontec and it's integrated MOCA to ethernet bridge.
There is no active management of the MOCA network by the Actiontec, unless you mean handing out DHCP addresses.
•FACT: The Actiontec is NOT certified as a MOCA management interface.
»mocalliance.org/imwp/download.as ··· ID=12899
said by mysteryfiostech :

multimedia DVR functionality including the media manager feature and the multi-room viewing is handled via the Actiontec.
As you stated, the boxes communicate to each other via the MOCA network. In other words, packets from one MOCA device flow to another MOCA device. They exist on a single IP subnet and are on the same physical LAN segment.
•FACT: A router does NOT route packets which traverse the same LAN segment.
»www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1812.txt
Packets do indeed flow across the MOCA bridge to the cat5 LAN ports when viewing media files from a PC. A bridge is not a router. And yes, the Actiontech includes both.
said by mysteryfiostech :

there is NO direct set top to set top communication.
You even contradicted yourself on this supposed fact, when you stated: the boxes communicate to each other via the MOCA network.
•FACT: See explanation of IP packet flow in previous point.
•FACT: The STBs send UDP broadcast packets to each other using local segment ip addresses (169.254.x.x) which can be self determined (no DHCP server needed).
No.     Time        Source                Destination           Protocol Info
      3 1.117360    169.254.1.246         169.254.1.255         UDP      Source port: 42993  Destination port: commplex-main
 
Frame 3 (60 bytes on wire, 60 bytes captured)
Ethernet II, Src: Motorola_48:a0:3c (00:1a:ad:48:a0:3c), Dst: Broadcast (ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff)
    Destination: Broadcast (ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff)
    Source: Motorola_48:a0:3c (00:1a:ad:48:a0:3c)
    Type: IP (0x0800)
    Trailer: 000000000000
Internet Protocol, Src: 169.254.1.246 (169.254.1.246), Dst: 169.254.1.255 (169.254.1.255)
User Datagram Protocol, Src Port: 42993 (42993), Dst Port: commplex-main (5000)
Data (12 bytes)
    Data: 434D44000000001BA9FE01FF
 
0000  ff ff ff ff ff ff 00 1a ad 48 a0 3c 08 00 45 00   .........H.<..E.
0010  00 28 55 05 00 00 40 11 cd ce a9 fe 01 f6 a9 fe   .(U...@.........
0020  01 ff a7 f1 13 88 00 14 b8 f4 43 4d 44 00 00 00   ..........CMD...
0030  00 1b a9 fe 01 ff 00 00 00 00 00 00               ............
 

I don't know where you got your "facts", but I've backed mine up with technical references.

I originally took exception to your implying that there was specific functionality in the Actiontec to support media sharing. I still disagree with that implication and nothing you have said has proved otherwise.

And apologies to the OP for sidetracking his thread.

TruQaam2050

join:2008-05-31
reply to mysteryfiostech
said by mysteryfiostech :

said by More Fiber:

said by mysteryfiostech :

the boxes communicate to each other via the moca network which is managed by the actiontec and it's integrated moca to ethernet bridge. multimedia dvr functionality including the media manager feature and the multi-room viewing is handled via the actiontec.

if you want to get nick-picky, another router would work but you would need integrate the coax network in either with a moca nim or a dumbed down actiontec.

there is NO direct set top to set top communication.
those are facts.
Actually the Home Media DVR is a feature which involves direct box-to-box communication via auto-configured IP addresses. A MoCA bridge (Actiontec or NIM) is not strictly necessary for this, but you will need one for your boxes to download Guide data or access On Demand.

Keep in mind that if you choose to go with another router, it will effectively be tethered to the Ethernet jack or cable run, which the tech may install for you. With MoCA, you can move the Actiontec to any wired coax outlet in your home.


FFJOHNL312
Premium
join:2007-12-16
Pawtucket, RI
Reviews:
·Cox HSI
reply to More Fiber
Ok on all that, but MediaManager does need the Actiontec. As the certificate describes, it functions as a LAN interface, so if MM is installed on the customers computer, they can see its content on the DVR box.

My apologies to the OP also.

John

happydemon

join:2008-03-02
Baldwin, NY
reply to larmarine03
Both connections are fine in that they both are equally reliable in giving you internet. The actiontec is a coaxial ready router and so you can't use your own router with coax.

However, people have had great trouble with the Actiontec. You should be concerned about using the Actiontec if you are a gamer, or if you use limewire / bittorent often, these applications may cause problems. Also, if you have many people on the internet at the same time.

And if you just want to use a better router, and there are certainly plenty out there for decent prices, then you may want to switch.

The Actiontec does feed internet to the television set top boxes, which is why it is necessary with FiOs TV.

So if you want to switch to ethernet, here is a link to a forum post that most clearly states what you must do.

»Verizon Fios ONT - Enabling CAT5 Connection Help!

ProFiOSDude
Premium
join:2005-05-27
Chesapeake, VA
reply to larmarine03
Chillax.....

STBs talk to each other on a separate network using 169.X.X.X., with one of the STB's acting as host. You can verify that by going into the diagnostics and looking at the connected home status. Been there and seen it 1st hand.

PFD

kes601

join:2007-04-14
Virginia Beach, VA
kudos:2

1 edit
said by ProFiOSDude:

Chillax.....

STBs talk to each other on a separate network using 169.X.X.X., with one of the STB's acting as host. You can verify that by going into the diagnostics and looking at the connected home status. Been there and seen it 1st hand.

PFD
The above is not correct.

If a device has a 169.x.x.x address then it has a self assigned address and did not properly pull an IP number from the DHCP server.

All devices connecting to the Actiontec are 192.168.1.1 - 192.168.1.254(unles you change the range manually), with the STB's getting the IPs starting at 192.168.1.100.

Your STB's and other network devices will be running on the same network.


NY Tel
Premium
join:2004-04-09
Smithtown, NY
kudos:3

1 edit
Click for full size
Actiontec - Internet is over Ethernet and I have TV which gets guide data via Coax to the router
Here is a screen shot of mine, perhaps this will end the slugfest...


More Fiber
Premium,MVM
join:2005-09-26
West Chester, PA
kudos:32
reply to kes601
said by kes601:

said by ProFiOSDude:

STBs talk to each other on a separate network using 169.X.X.X., with one of the STB's acting as host. You can verify that by going into the diagnostics and looking at the connected home status. Been there and seen it 1st hand.

PFD
The above is not correct.

If a device has a 169.x.x.x address then it has a self assigned address and did not properly pull an IP number from the DHCP server.

All devices connecting to the Actiontec are 192.168.1.1 - 192.168.1.254(unles you change the range manually), with the STB's getting the IPs starting at 192.168.1.100.

Your STB's and other network devices will be running on the same network.
kes601, PFD is correct that the STBs communicate among themselves for media sharing and to convey configuration information to each other using self assigned 169.254.x.x local segment addresses. This can also be seen in the packet trace I posted.

169.254.x.x addresses are non-routable IP addresses. An explanation of 169.254.x.x addressing can be found here:
»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/169.254

There is no "rule" that states that an ethernet device can not have both a "local segment" address and a DHCP assigned address. The use of the "local segment" address is for inter STB communication is completely separate from the DHCP addresses used for VOD and retrieving guide data. These functions require a routable IP address.

kes601

join:2007-04-14
Virginia Beach, VA
kudos:2

1 edit
Hmm, ok. I am wrong....been wrong before....will be wrong again.

Then I have a question, how does the Media Manager installed on a computer communicate w/the STB? And why under System Info doe my box have an IP of 192.x.x.x....

Or am I completely missing the point of the posts?

said by More Fiber:

said by kes601:

said by ProFiOSDude:

STBs talk to each other on a separate network using 169.X.X.X., with one of the STB's acting as host. You can verify that by going into the diagnostics and looking at the connected home status. Been there and seen it 1st hand.

PFD
The above is not correct.

If a device has a 169.x.x.x address then it has a self assigned address and did not properly pull an IP number from the DHCP server.

All devices connecting to the Actiontec are 192.168.1.1 - 192.168.1.254(unles you change the range manually), with the STB's getting the IPs starting at 192.168.1.100.

Your STB's and other network devices will be running on the same network.
kes601, PFD is correct that the STBs communicate among themselves for media sharing and to convey configuration information to each other using self assigned 169.254.x.x local segment addresses. This can also be seen in the packet trace I posted.

169.254.x.x addresses are non-routable IP addresses. An explanation of 169.254.x.x addressing can be found here:
»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/169.254

There is no "rule" that states that an ethernet device can not have both a "local segment" address and a DHCP assigned address. The use of the "local segment" address is for inter STB communication is completely separate from the DHCP addresses used for VOD and retrieving guide data. These functions require a routable IP address.


More Fiber
Premium,MVM
join:2005-09-26
West Chester, PA
kudos:32
reply to NY Tel
NY Tel: No dispute about the STBs getting guide data over coax.


More Fiber
Premium,MVM
join:2005-09-26
West Chester, PA
kudos:32
reply to kes601
said by kes601:

Then I have a question, how does the Media Manager installed on a computer communicate w/the STB? And why under System Info doe my box have an IP of 192.x.x.x....

Or am I completely missing the point of the posts?
Not missing the point at all. I discovered the hard way that the STBs and any PC's running Media manager have to be on the same subnet as the Actiontec (BTW, there are ways to accomplish this without the Actiontec).

The 192.168.1.x addresses you see are the DHCP addresses assigned by the Actiontec (or other router) when the STB requests a DHCP lease. These are used for VOD and guide data requests originated by the STB and routed through the Actiontec to the WAN interface (like any other client request) and the response returned to the STB.

On the other hand, the 169.254.x.x addresses are "under the covers" and are used for broadcasting UDP packets on the local LAN. And as ProFiOSDude See Profile said, you can see the 169.254 address in the STB diagnostics menu.

As for your question, I have to speculate that Media Manager is listening for the UDP broadcasts. That would explain it not working across a router.

What I have found by doing packet traces is that the configuration information sent out by the STBs is in XML format.

<HmaNetConfig>
 <MsgFmtRev>2</MsgFmtRev>
 <MsgContRev>13</MsgContRev>
 <NetStatus>0</NetStatus>
 <HmaDevice>
  <DevStatus>0</DevStatus>
  <MACAddr>001aad48xxxx</MACAddr>
  <IPAddr>169.254.1.246</IPAddr>
  <UnitAddr>004169xxxx</UnitAddr>
  <NetworkMaster>Master</NetworkMaster>
  <DeviceType>1</DeviceType>
  <SettopNodeID>1</SettopNodeID>
  <NetConnectType>1</NetConnectType>
  <MocaNodeID>0</MocaNodeID>
  <MocaVersion>02.69</MocaVersion>
  <HmaAuth>No</HmaAuth>
  <HmaContSupport>SDorHD</HmaContSupport>
  <NumContSes>3</NumContSes>
 </HmaDevice>
 <HmaDevice>
  <DevStatus>3</DevStatus>
  <MACAddr>001bdd35xxxx</MACAddr>
  <IPAddr>169.254.1.192</IPAddr>
  <UnitAddr>001262xxxx</UnitAddr>
  <DeviceType>2</DeviceType>
  <SettopNodeID>2</SettopNodeID>
  <NetConnectType>1</NetConnectType>
  <MocaNodeID>2</MocaNodeID>
  <MocaVersion>02.69</MocaVersion>
  <HmaAuth>Yes</HmaAuth>
  <HmaContSupport>SDonly</HmaContSupport>
  <NumContSes>0</NumContSes>
 </HmaDevice>
 <HmaDevice>
  <DevStatus>0</DevStatus>
  <MACAddr>001bdd35xxxx</MACAddr>
  <IPAddr>169.254.1.25</IPAddr>
  <UnitAddr>001262xxxx</UnitAddr>
  <DeviceType>2</DeviceType>
  <SettopNodeID>3</SettopNodeID>
  <NetConnectType>1</NetConnectType>
  <MocaNodeID>2</MocaNodeID>
  <MocaVersion>02.69</MocaVersion>
  <HmaAuth>Yes</HmaAuth>
  <HmaContSupport>SDonly</HmaContSupport>
  <NumContSes>0</NumContSes>
 </HmaDevice>
</HmaNetConfig>
 


mysteryfiostech

@verizon.net
reply to More Fiber
you are right, i think that i know everything about fios and have all the right answers when i clearly do not.


mysteryfiostech

@verizon.net
reply to larmarine03
i will now retreat into my mother's basement...
oh wait, you're already there.

Mces97

join:2007-04-10
Oakland Gardens, NY
reply to larmarine03
I will be getting Fios TV with the Multi-Room DVR, and was looking at the faq about using a different router. I just want to use the dvr to watch shows in different rooms, I have no plans to use it to listen to music off my pc,so my question is do I still need to connect using the LAN to LAN method or can I connect with the WAN to LAN method?
Thanks


More Fiber
Premium,MVM
join:2005-09-26
West Chester, PA
kudos:32
said by Mces97:

I have no plans to use it to listen to music off my pc,so my question is do I still need to connect using the LAN to LAN method or can I connect with the WAN to LAN method?
The LAN-to-LAN method (part 4) is only required in order to use the VZ Media Manager software on a PC.

If you're not going to be running Media Manager, then the WAN-to-LAN approach (part 3) will work just fine.