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This is a sub-selection from ugh

yock
TFTC
Premium Member
join:2000-11-21
Miamisburg, OH

yock to haplo2112

Premium Member

to haplo2112

Re: ugh

said by haplo2112:

"Another thing they could have done was just cancel service."

WHY DON'T YOU PEOPLE GET IT!

In most of the country nobody can just cancel service. ISP's are a monopoly just about everywhere. There is one count 'em ONE broadband provider for whatever area in which they live. So therefore we have to hope, beg and plead for the one choice we have to offer us what we want or need from an ISP.
So, you absolutely need broadband Internet access? Then you'd better get used to dealing with the terms of use put forth by companies like Comcast. As long as you need their service then you'll have to abide by the terms of what's available.

Or you could decide you don't need broadband and cancel your service.

Morac
Cat god
join:2001-08-30
Riverside, NJ

Morac

Member

said by yock:

So, you absolutely need broadband Internet access? Then you'd better get used to dealing with the terms of use put forth by companies like Comcast. As long as you need their service then you'll have to abide by the terms of what's available.

Or you could decide you don't need broadband and cancel your service.
In this day and age the Internet has pretty much become a necessity and dial-up doesn't cut it. If you tell people to cancel their Internet access, you might as well also tell them to cancel their phone and power service as well.

yock
TFTC
Premium Member
join:2000-11-21
Miamisburg, OH

yock

Premium Member

said by Morac:

said by yock:

So, you absolutely need broadband Internet access? Then you'd better get used to dealing with the terms of use put forth by companies like Comcast. As long as you need their service then you'll have to abide by the terms of what's available.

Or you could decide you don't need broadband and cancel your service.
In this day and age the Internet has pretty much become a necessity and dial-up doesn't cut it. If you tell people to cancel their Internet access, you might as well also tell them to cancel their phone and power service as well.
Why is it a necessity? I can still buy groceries, order any pay for services, get medical treatment, buy real estate and real property, and anything else separate from the Internet.

Explain to me what you must do on the Internet that you cannot accomplish any other way.

kadar

join:0000-00-00

kadar

said by yock:

Explain to me what you must do on the Internet that you cannot accomplish any other way.
Be a pain in your ass.
haplo2112
join:2003-05-12
Charlton, MA

haplo2112 to yock

Member

to yock
Yes actually I do!
haplo2112

haplo2112 to yock

Member

to yock
Actually no I could not decide that, Internet access at my home is a requirement. I refuse to go into the pile of details of why, I feel its enough to say that it is required.

Further more its my right to whine, bitch moan, scream and violate TOS/AUP to get what I need out of the internet connection. If they will not sell me what I need then I will take it however I can. NOTE: I am not hacking the connection or messing with their infrastructure in any way, just flogging the connection 24/7 doing what I need to do with it.

Morac
Cat god
join:2001-08-30
Riverside, NJ

Morac to yock

Member

to yock
said by yock:

Why is it a necessity? I can still buy groceries, order any pay for services, get medical treatment, buy real estate and real property, and anything else separate from the Internet.
I'll reverse the question. You can do any of those things without indoor plumbing, phone service or electric power. So why are those considered necessities, but Internet isn't?

yock
TFTC
Premium Member
join:2000-11-21
Miamisburg, OH

yock

Premium Member

said by Morac:

said by yock:

Why is it a necessity? I can still buy groceries, order any pay for services, get medical treatment, buy real estate and real property, and anything else separate from the Internet.
I'll reverse the question. You can do any of those things without indoor plumbing, phone service or electric power. So why are those considered necessities, but Internet isn't?
I can't wash or nourish myself without water or electricity. Running water and in-home electricity makes those convenient. Furthermore, I don't have a beef with my water, electric, or telephone service. Suffice it to say that if I did have a beef with one of those providers then I'd probably have better grounds for necessity than against an ISP.
yock

yock to haplo2112

Premium Member

to haplo2112
said by haplo2112:

Actually no I could not decide that, Internet access at my home is a requirement. I refuse to go into the pile of details of why, I feel its enough to say that it is required.
Then I don't believe you.
Further more its my right to whine, bitch moan, scream and violate TOS/AUP to get what I need out of the internet connection. If they will not sell me what I need then I will take it however I can. NOTE: I am not hacking the connection or messing with their infrastructure in any way, just flogging the connection 24/7 doing what I need to do with it.
Of course it's your right to whine and complain, no discounting that. It's also my right to call you out on it as being petty and unproductive. See, you and I both have rights of expression.

You do not, however, have a "right" to violate the terms of service. You entered into a contract with the service provider which you are in breach of by violating their terms. They too would be in violation of those same terms of service if they failed to deliver what they outline in that TOS. That's the problem though, they provided precisely what they said they would and to what you agreed. If you need more service, then you had better pay for it.

Morac
Cat god
join:2001-08-30
Riverside, NJ

Morac to yock

Member

to yock
said by yock:

I can't wash or nourish myself without water or electricity. Running water and in-home electricity makes those convenient.
People managed to wash and nourish themselves just fine before indoor plumbing and electricity were invented. It's only these days that people would be lost with them, because they don't know how to live without them. So based on your comments convenience begets necessity.

I say in a few years people won't be able to function without the Internet even though they could go back to the old way of doing things. And those born after the Internet was invented won't know of any other way.

yock
TFTC
Premium Member
join:2000-11-21
Miamisburg, OH

yock

Premium Member

You removed the qualifying statement in my post that tied this together though the concept of necessity, which is the root of all this to begin with.

I need water, regardless of the delivery mechanism.
I need heat, regardless of the delivery mechanism.
I need to communicate with people, regardless of the delivery mechanism.

You might have had something with the phone company, but I have choices with that. I can get POTS service from my local ILEC, I can get wireless service from a slew of competing providers, or I can get VOIP from a number of sources. More than one or two of those is available to nearly everyone in this country, and the ones who lack availability will lack it in the Internet category, not wireless or POTS.

Your argument breaks down when we talk about necessity, which was my point to begin with. You absolutely do not need the Internet. Even if you did, committing a federal crime is not an acceptable form of protest for unfair contracts.

AtomicZero
join:2004-11-24
West Palm Beach, FL

AtomicZero to Morac

Member

to Morac
said by Morac:

said by yock:

I can't wash or nourish myself without water or electricity. Running water and in-home electricity makes those convenient.
People managed to wash and nourish themselves just fine before indoor plumbing and electricity were invented. It's only these days that people would be lost with them, because they don't know how to live without them. So based on your comments convenience begets necessity.

I say in a few years people won't be able to function without the Internet even though they could go back to the old way of doing things. And those born after the Internet was invented won't know of any other way.
No matter which way you wanna cut it. the PC/internet access [and most definitely High Speed Internet] is a luxury item....don't get it twisted.....and I'm sure that little hacker was just irate cuz he couldn't download his 500TB of illegal Pr0n or his YouTub videos weren't playing fast enough.
haplo2112
join:2003-05-12
Charlton, MA

haplo2112 to yock

Member

to yock
"Then I don't believe you."

Whatever

"You do not, however, have a "right" to violate the terms of service. You entered into a contract with the service provider which you are in breach of by violating their terms. They too would be in violation of those same terms of service if they failed to deliver what they outline in that TOS. That's the problem though, they provided precisely what they said they would and to what you agreed. If you need more service, then you had better pay for it."

They will not sell what I want at any price. They will not negotiate on contract terms. I am being forced into a contract that I do not agree with, in order to even have a chance to get what I need. If they would sell me what I want and/or offer to negotiate on the terms of the contract then perhaps you might have a point. However since that is not the case then your point is invalid.

Personally I'd rather work with in the system as you seem to be suggesting, however then system makes no provision for me to do so, therefore I must violate the system. Its a precept upon which our country was built, so I feel fairly justified.
haplo2112

haplo2112 to yock

Member

to yock
"Your argument breaks down when we talk about necessity, which was my point to begin with. You absolutely do not need the Internet. Even if you did, committing a federal crime is not an acceptable form of protest for unfair contracts."

Worked for the Boston Tea Party!

yock
TFTC
Premium Member
join:2000-11-21
Miamisburg, OH

yock to haplo2112

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to haplo2112
You have not been forced into any contract. You entered into it fully aware of the limitations on the service. If you require special needs, then you need to negotiate those needs with them. They can either provide for those needs or they cannot. It still doesn't justify violating the terms.

You need to find other avenues of fulfillment for those needs.
yock

yock to haplo2112

Premium Member

to haplo2112
said by haplo2112:

"Your argument breaks down when we talk about necessity, which was my point to begin with. You absolutely do not need the Internet. Even if you did, committing a federal crime is not an acceptable form of protest for unfair contracts."

Worked for the Boston Tea Party!
Your answer to all of this is to justify violating a voluntary private contract by comparing it to a revolution against compulsory and violently enforced unfair taxation?

Go back to school.
haplo2112
join:2003-05-12
Charlton, MA

haplo2112 to yock

Member

to yock
"You have not been forced into any contract. You entered into it fully aware of the limitations on the service. If you require special needs, then you need to negotiate those needs with them. They can either provide for those needs or they cannot. It still doesn't justify violating the terms.

You need to find other avenues of fulfillment for those needs."

Yes, I have been forced into a contract, they are they only option for me to get what I need, and they will not negotiate on price, service level, and terms of service.
Therefore I do what I must to get what I need! Flog the line for all its worth 24/7 and host a personal use server. And no for the purposes of what I do I cannot co-locate, its not an option.

Just to be clear on all of this my ISP is not Comcast since we are in a Comcast thread! And I do not condone what these hackers did in any way.

yock
TFTC
Premium Member
join:2000-11-21
Miamisburg, OH

yock

Premium Member

Why do you need to host your own personal server? Lease your own hosting space from one of the many reputable hosting companies. They have terms of service more in-line with your needs anyway.

What else are you doing that requires that you "flog the line 24/7?"
haplo2112
join:2003-05-12
Charlton, MA

2 edits

haplo2112 to yock

Member

to yock
It doesn't matter if you like the analogy or not, it amounts to the same thing. The Corporations have become our oppressors in this day and age. It is our right as citizens in a at least nominally free country to protest against that oppression. Further still they do so with the support and permission of government. When was the last time a major issue that came down to whats best for the citizen or what's best for the corporation, went in the citizens favor.

yock
TFTC
Premium Member
join:2000-11-21
Miamisburg, OH

yock

Premium Member

said by haplo2112:

It doesn't matter if you like the analogy or not, it amounts to the same thing. The Corporations have become our oppressors in this day and age. It is our right as citizens in a at least nominally free country to protest against that oppression.
I think the analogy is distasteful and demonstrates a lack of understanding of the founding of this country. But nevermind that.

Yes, you have every right to protest, but protest must be done legally or it's hypocritical and meaningless. Cancelling your service is good protest. Encouraging others to do the same is great protest. Alerting the media to restrictive and unfair contracts is valid protest. Violating the terms of your contract is not a good protest.

Common and commercial law doesn't allow you to protest a contract of which you are in breach.
haplo2112
join:2003-05-12
Charlton, MA

1 edit

haplo2112 to yock

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As I said earlier my reasons and motivations are my own. I'm not going in to it, I need to have physical access to the hardware on a basically daily basis. It is for personal use, there are no conveniently located colo facilities and the ones that are near enough to consider won't host what I need hosted anyway.

edit: stupid spell checker.

braynes
Premium Member
join:2005-03-14
Waterville, ME

braynes to yock

Premium Member

to yock
Explain to me what you must do on the Internet that you cannot accomplish any other way.

Listen to you.
Bruce
haplo2112
join:2003-05-12
Charlton, MA

1 edit

haplo2112 to yock

Member

to yock
"I think the analogy is distasteful and demonstrates a lack of understanding of the founding of this country. But nevermind that."

Neverminding! I was being somewhat extremist there anyway. However I do have a very strong grounding in and understanding on US history. Its one of the reasons that the present state of things in the country annoys the crap out of me!

"Cancelling your service is good protest."

Again not an option.

"Encouraging others to do the same is great protest."

Still not an option, and those around me do not as a general rule require what I require and are happy with what they get. Those that are in my situation do not have the option since we have only one choice, if its something you have to have, you can't just toss it away, its not a valid form of protest, I argue in that case the entity you are protesting against wins if you just go away.

"Alerting the media to restrictive and unfair contracts is valid protest."

Been there, done that, bought the T-shirt, used it as a dish rag, they don't care!

"Violating the terms of your contract is not a good protest."

You know what I totally agree, but if its the only form of protest that can get the sleeping dragon to pay attention for 5 minutes, and its all ya got!

"Common and commercial law doesn't allow you to protest a contract of which you are in breach."

In the letter of the law probably not, but history is rife with examples where it has worked. Happens in contract law and labor negotiations all the time. Party A of the contract is getting screwed by Party B. Party A violates contract, Party B takes them to court (or similar legal entity) over it. They argue their points some one wins, admittedly not always Party A, but sometimes.

yock
TFTC
Premium Member
join:2000-11-21
Miamisburg, OH

yock to braynes

Premium Member

to braynes
said by braynes:

Explain to me what you must do on the Internet that you cannot accomplish any other way.

Listen to you.
Bruce
Care to elaborate?

braynes
Premium Member
join:2005-03-14
Waterville, ME

braynes

Premium Member

said by yock:

said by braynes:

Explain to me what you must do on the Internet that you cannot accomplish any other way.

Listen to you.
Bruce
Care to elaborate?
no place in the world would I ever run in to one like you.
Bruce

Qumahlin
Never Enough Time
MVM
join:2001-10-05
united state

Qumahlin to haplo2112

MVM

to haplo2112
Comparing the boston tea party to this situation is for all intents and purposes, wrong. Thier similarity is incredibly vague at best and I agree shows a lack of understanding of why the boston tea party occured if you truly believe it is similar to this situation.
Qumahlin

Qumahlin to braynes

MVM

to braynes
said by braynes:

said by yock:

said by braynes:

Explain to me what you must do on the Internet that you cannot accomplish any other way.

Listen to you.
Bruce
Care to elaborate?
no place in the world would I ever run in to one like you.
Bruce
You've clearly have never lived or had an extended visit to NYC. There is no type of person on the internet that you won't encounter in the city.
Qumahlin

Qumahlin to haplo2112

MVM

to haplo2112
said by haplo2112:

As I said earlier my reasons and motivations are my own. I'm not going in to it, I need to have physical access to the hardware on a basically daily basis. It is for personal use, there are no conveniently located colo facilities and the ones that are near enough to consider won't host what I need hosted anyway.

edit: stupid spell checker.
In otherwords what your doing is most likely illegal to begin with. Bottom line is you don't have a "right" to violate a contract.

You can feel anyway you want about it, but your wrong plain and simple. If you were taken to court the judge won't see your "right" to admitting that you break a contract you entered into on a daily basis.

Not that your likely to be caught or go to court, but your attitude about it is amazing. I really hope that attitude gets carried over to committing a real crime (if your not already) i'd love to see the look on the judges face when your lawyer tells him "your honor my client felt he had a right to break the law because he didn't agree with it in the first place and had no choice..."

braynes
Premium Member
join:2005-03-14
Waterville, ME

braynes to Qumahlin

Premium Member

to Qumahlin
said by Qumahlin:

You've clearly have never lived or had an extended visit to NYC. There is no type of person on the internet that you won't encounter in the city.
No I have not ,is there a bounty on this type?
Bruce

VegasMan
Living the Vegas life.
Premium Member
join:2002-11-17
Las Vegas, NV
·CenturyLink

VegasMan to yock

Premium Member

to yock
said by yock:

You have not been forced into any contract. You entered into it fully aware of the limitations on the service. If you require special needs, then you need to negotiate those needs with them. They can either provide for those needs or they cannot. It still doesn't justify violating the terms.

You need to find other avenues of fulfillment for those needs.
Yes most of us agreed to the contract and we agreed to pay the price associated with said contract. But the one big thing is you and I can't change that contract anytime we want and we can't define it the way we want. The Corps do this all of the time and expect us to just go along with it or just suck it. We have no negotiations.
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