Rob
In Deo speramus, God Bless the USA
Premium
join:2001-08-25
Kendall, FL
 ·Comcast
| reply to Jerm
Re: well...
said by Jerm  :said by Rob : Caps exist because of the limited amount of bandwidth that a cable co can send to its customers. It's not about costing more money... "Limited amount of bandwidth"??? Then UPGRADE the dang backbone! Most cable co's own their own regional fiber networks, upgrade the friggin lasers!. And DOCSIS 3 will take care of the last mile. On the contrary, it's all about the money. Oh and preventing online video from competing. After all what takes the most bandwidth? hmm... It's not about the backbone. It's about the last mile, and yes it's about money. But it's not about the Cogent lowering their pricing. |
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Jerm
join:2000-04-10
Richland, WA
| reply to Dogfather
Re: Very Interesting ...
said by Dogfather :Any caps are simply about increasing revenue, not because caps are necessary to maintain network stability. Bingo. And don't forget preventing comptition from online video - after all the cable co's are terrified of becomming a "dumb pipe" provider and having their cash cow drift away like VOIP is doing to the telcos... |
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patcat88
join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY
| reply to Jerm
Re: well...
said by Jerm :... at least someone gets it ... It's like Verizon charging $0.15 per text msg. Or TWC and their proposed $1.50/GB fee. Remember a cellular phone call is 7 to 11 text messages PER SECOND bandwidth wise. Nothing like getting payed half a million $ to move 1 CD worth of text messages. $930K per GB of texts. They must be laughing all the way to the bank. |
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djrobx
join:2000-05-31
Valencia, CA
 ·PHONE POWER
 ·AT&T U-Verse
·AT&T CallVantage
·Time Warner VOIP
·RoadRunner Cable
| reply to jc100
Re: Very Interesting ...
quote:
The capacity is there, just the fact an ISP doesnt have enough nodes in the area
Don't forget about the intermediate connections between the cable plant and the backbone peering point. Such connections need to be able to handle the traffic from every node. |
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Jerm
join:2000-04-10
Richland, WA
1 edit | reply to espaeth
said by espaeth Keep in mind that pricing is only valid in a Cogent meet-me facility -- you have to pay to get your own circuit to their handoff.
...
It's getting the connections from these places of mass aggregation out to your location that drives up the costs.
:
Yep you're right about the Cogent facility part, but in my area for example I know my Cable Co has their own regional fiber network. Then they have one massive telco circuit to Seattle where they hit the peers (and other one to Portland for backup).
You can't tell me that one or two telco circuits just upped the price per GB 125X from $0.012 to $1.50 ... |
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Dogfather
Premium
join:2007-12-26
Laguna Hills, CA
·Cox HSI
·Verizon FIOS
·Cox VOIP
·ViaTalk
·RoadRunner Cable
 ·MegaPath
·Verizon west (ex G..
·Time Warner VOIP
1 edit | reply to djrobx
Re: well...
Cable operators don't have problems if they dedicate enough channels to their HSI offerings.
It doesn't matter how many nodes cover a city, it's how many customers they're trying to serve with a node and how many channels they're dedicating to get that done.
It's no secret that there are markets with saturated channels otherwise you wouldn't see evening slowdowns in some parts of a city while the other parts run fine. And not every market has problems which is why I said they have problems on occasion.
I was a TWC 15/2 customer up until a couple of weeks ago and never had an issue, but I know people served by the same head end that did during the evening, particularly in upstream speeds and and occasionally latency.
And while cable systems for the most part are handling current traffic demands, cable operators can't continue ramping up speeds without providing an increase in node to headend capacity. |
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patcat88
join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY
| reply to espaeth
Re: Very Interesting ...
said by espaeth :The carrier tail circuits, however, are about $20-35k/mo on the Minneapolis side (depending on private fiber or LEC circuit) and $25-45k/mo on the CT side for each circuit from Hartford to Trumbull. So how does FIOS, let alone copper POTS exist? $20K-$40K is the installation cost, not the monthly fee. Telcos laugh all the way to the bank with outrageous business customer prices since they know there is no way around them. |
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Dogfather
Premium
join:2007-12-26
Laguna Hills, CA
·Cox HSI
·Verizon FIOS
·Cox VOIP
·ViaTalk
·RoadRunner Cable
·MegaPath
·Verizon west (ex G..
·Time Warner VOIP
| reply to djrobx
It doesn't matter how many nodes a cable system has. Nodes themselves can handle a boatload of traffic.
The capacity crunch is solely how many channels a cable operator dedicates for traffic between that node and the headend. You can handle hundreds and hundreds of customers on a node, if you dedicate the channels to do it.
Backbone capacity is easily scaleable and because the pool of customers is so much larger, the backbone capacity isn't suceptible to overselling issues like nodal capacity is. It only takes a few seeding customers to saturate the upstream channels of a node. |
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Dogfather
Premium
join:2007-12-26
Laguna Hills, CA
·Cox HSI
·Verizon FIOS
·Cox VOIP
·ViaTalk
·RoadRunner Cable
·MegaPath
·Verizon west (ex G..
·Time Warner VOIP
| reply to patcat88
said by patcat88 :said by espaeth :The carrier tail circuits, however, are about $20-35k/mo on the Minneapolis side (depending on private fiber or LEC circuit) and $25-45k/mo on the CT side for each circuit from Hartford to Trumbull. So how does FIOS, let alone copper POTS exist? $20K-$40K is the installation cost, not the monthly fee. Telcos laugh all the way to the bank with outrageous business customer prices since they know there is no way around them. Exactly...why do they charge business what they do? 'Cause they can. It's what the market will bear. |
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espaeth
Digital Plumber
Premium,MVM
join:2001-04-21
Minneapolis, MN
·voip.ms
·Vitelity VOIP
·Callcentric
·VoiceStick
·ViaTalk
·Comcast
·Embarq
| reply to Jerm
said by Jerm :Yep you're right about the Cogent facility part, but in my area for example I know my Cable Co has their own regional fiber network. Then they have one massive telco circuit to Seattle where they hit the peers (and other one to Portland for backup). You can't tell me that one or two telco circuits just upped the price per GB 125X from $0.012 to $1.50 ... So what do you suppose it costs to operate your own regional fiber network?
Before you say that's a fixed buildout cost, don't forget about the people that are employed specifically to maintain that regional network. |
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Dogfather
Premium
join:2007-12-26
Laguna Hills, CA | A beeeeeelion dollars. |
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espaeth
Digital Plumber
Premium,MVM
join:2001-04-21
Minneapolis, MN
·voip.ms
·Vitelity VOIP
·Callcentric
·VoiceStick
·ViaTalk
·Comcast
·Embarq
| reply to Jerm
Re: well...
said by Jerm :And DOCSIS 3 will take care of the last mile. DOCSIS 3.0 will help the last mile, but only once they upgrade every installed CMTS and replace every single subscriber cable modem with a DOCSIS 3.0 model. |
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espaeth
Digital Plumber
Premium,MVM
join:2001-04-21
Minneapolis, MN
·voip.ms
·Vitelity VOIP
·Callcentric
·VoiceStick
·ViaTalk
·Comcast
·Embarq
| reply to djrobx
said by djrobx :Back then this same argument was being made, when cable's caps were as low as 1500/128. Cable companies are now offering 10x those speeds on pretty much the same DOCSIS 1 technology, and overall it's holding up quite well. Back then it was also very common to share the same downstream channel across a half dozen nodes or more. Over the last decade the MSOs have been pretty active in getting the number of nodes per downstream channel reduced, down to 1 DS in many cases. They've also added multiple upstream channels and performed physical node splits to get the number of homes per node down.
said by djrobx :Think about how many nodes cover a city, and then think about how much backbone capacity it would require to fill all of those nodes, at 38mbps per node. And don't forget, you need a very big link from the cable plant TO the backbone provider that can handle all of that traffic. That infrastructure is in place for many carriers.
Look at Comcast's network:
The CMTS hardware is connected to user/utility routers with GigE connections. The user routers connect to the aggregation routers with multiple 10GigE connections, and the area/aggregation routers connect to the core with multiple 10GigE connections.
Comcast's network is extremely fat in the middle, with Internet access circuits provisioned by demand (at significantly less capacity than what is available in the core) and the CMTS routers can't generate enough traffic to come even remotely close to choking the GigE uplink connections they have into the network.
For MSOs the congestion is in the last mile that connects the subscribers, followed by a distant chokepoint at the Internet access points. |
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dvd536
as Mr. Pink as they come
Premium
join:2001-04-27
Phoenix, AZ
| reply to Dogfather
Re: Very Interesting ...
said by Dogfather :said by jc100 :However, aren't all ISPS hooked into the backbones and simply resetting the bandwidth that level 3 providers sell? Backbone connectivity is scalable and bandwidth is cheap and evidentally getting cheaper. However i don't see my HSI bill going down.
--
When I gez aju zavateh na nalechoo more new yonooz tonigh molinigh - Ken Lee |
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nukscull
@rr.com | reply to espaeth
But, but, but doesn't it run on magic beams? You just "activate the lasers" and it all knows what to do by itself? There's no silly upkeep or maintenance contracts, or anything like that! |
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raccettura
join:2002-09-28
USA
| reply to Jerm
said by Jerm :So much for cable and their whining/caps. Just means more profit. Cable providers connect to upstream provider like Cogent. If they lower the cost, and cable companies cap their service (hence cap their costs)... that results in higher profit margins.
Just more reason to go ahead. |
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Dogfather
Premium
join:2007-12-26
Laguna Hills, CA
·Cox HSI
·Verizon FIOS
·Cox VOIP
·ViaTalk
·RoadRunner Cable
·MegaPath
·Verizon west (ex G..
·Time Warner VOIP
1 edit | reply to dvd536
But it is going down, in terms of the same $/Mb.
When I first got Cox in 1997 it was 3Mb for $30. Now it's 7Mb for $42.
So I was paying $10/Mb in 1997 and now I'm paying only $6/Mb. A decrease of 40%.
My 30Mb Verizon service will be less than $5/Mb, when with 768Kbps DSL many years ago I started at $50 or a whopping $65 per Mb. |
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Dogfather
Premium
join:2007-12-26
Laguna Hills, CA
1 edit | reply to Jerm
That's true. I'm watching a South Park episode via the Internet based DirecTV On Demand while I'm downloading Semi-Pro in 720P on my AppleTV. These services were once exclusive domain of cable companies. |
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markopoleo
join:2003-04-02
Bonne Terre, MO
·Charter Pipeline
| reply to espaeth
Re: well...
said by espaeth :said by Jerm :And DOCSIS 3 will take care of the last mile. DOCSIS 3.0 will help the last mile, but only once they upgrade every installed CMTS and replace every single subscriber cable modem with a DOCSIS 3.0 model. Will you people stop thinking DOCSIS 3.0 is the answer to all.
It means NOTHING to the end user currently, it just helps the cable provider.
Let me say it again..current cable customers have NOT REACHED THE BANDWIDTH OF CURRENT DOCSIS MODEMS. Had to yell it cause some people are not listening.  |
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Lazlow
join:2006-08-07
Saint Louis, MO
| Markopoleo
You forget about the shared part of the Docsis. We all (on the same node) have to share the bandwidth on the channel(38 down and 10 up for Docsis 1.1, most markets). You start splitting up 10 (up) with a bunch of guys running 16/2 and the brakes go on in a hurry. |
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