darthboy
join:2007-12-31
Canada | reply to bcastner
Re: In the Wild: Zlob Changing Router Settings to Hijack DNS
I believe ISPs' tech guys never change the default passwords even during an onsite installation. Sure they help set up (at least) a WEP key, but that doesn't help in this kind of exploit. |
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jabarnut
Light Years Away
Premium,MVM
join:2005-01-22
Galaxy M31
4 edits | reply to nwrickert
said by nwrickert  :A better solution would be for manufacturers to give a unique default password to each router, and print that password on the router (next to the serial number). Then physical access (ability to read the label) is required to change the settings. I'm pretty sure a few manufacturers already do this. Well, in light of this exploit, I hope that more than a few manufacturers start doing this (or something similar).
It's pretty scary that the majority of Routers out there are still operating with the default password...and as I mentioned in an earlier post, I've confirmed this myself. (At least in my neck of the woods).
In the mean time, good luck to the 70 to 80% (maybe higher), of people who just buy these things, plug them in, and feel "secure". (Mainly because they've heard by word of mouth that's all they need to do to in order to keep most of the bad guys out).
I've also seen on many of the ISP "FAQ" pages, where they suggest that buying a Router will allow you to add additional Computers to your Broadband Connection....with the usual disclaimer that they are not responsible for maintaining it, should any problems arise.
Of course, with no mention whatsoever, that proper configuration for security is important.
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I had a life once.....now I have a Computer and a Modem. |
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nwrickert
sand groper
Premium,MVM
join:2004-09-04
Geneva, IL
 ·AT&T U-Verse
 ·AT&T Midwest
| reply to Annorax
said by Annorax :said by daveinpoway :It seems to me that a lot of this could be avoided if the router manufacturers would make it mandatory that you go into the setup and set a new password before the unit will function Unfortunately, the vast majority of potential users are stoopid. The only way to make money from this group of the "great unwashed" is to make your product super easy to use. A better solution would be for manufacturers to give a unique default password to each router, and print that password on the router (next to the serial number). Then physical access (ability to read the label) is required to change the settings. I'm pretty sure a few manufacturers already do this.
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AT&T dsl; Westell 327w modem/router; SuSE 10.1; firefox 2.0.0.14 |
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EGeezer
Go Bobcats
Premium
join:2002-08-04
Country!
 ·Callcentric
 ·RoadRunner Cable
·AT&T CallVantage
1 edit | reply to Annorax
said by Annorax :Unfortunately, the vast majority of potential users are stoopid. The only way to make money from this group of the "great unwashed" is to make your product super easy to use. To a certain point I agree. However, just go to a local big box retailer and hear the salesman and the non-technical customer discuss the implementation of the new gizmo.
C: "well, I'm not a computer person. Is it hard to set up?"
S: "No problem - just pull it out of the box, plug in the wires as the diagram shows and it's set itself up. Or our GGR (Geek GangRape) experts can go to your home and set it up for you for only $229"
C: "Wow, that's a lot. I can plug in the doo-hickeys myself. thanks!" *trots to checkout to buy new router*
Alternative response:
C: "Wow, that's a lot but I'll have them set it up for me" *GGR installs router with defaults and the customer's pet guppy's name as the password (USER=ADMIN PW=FLUFFY)*
As for the "great unwashed", don't forget that technology is for people and not the other way around. Too many self-styled experts forget that - or aren't skilled enough to teach or develop solutions customers can use.
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If dogs travel in space at the speed of light, do they reach their destination in dog-light years? |
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Annorax
join:2001-03-27
Apex, NC
| reply to daveinpoway
said by daveinpoway :It seems to me that a lot of this could be avoided if the router manufacturers would make it mandatory that you go into the setup and set a new password before the unit will function Unfortunately, the vast majority of potential users are stoopid. The only way to make money from this group of the "great unwashed" is to make your product super easy to use.
They get away with this by packing in a lot of warning messages in the documentation (that goes unread by the stoopid people) and when the stoopid people complain the manufacturer is covered. "Didn't you read the manual?"
Reminds me of a Dilbert cartoon I love. "... now stand on your chair and yell "does anyone know how to read a manual?" |
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cork1958
Cork
join:2000-02-26
Fruitport, MI
·Verizon Online DSL
·Charter Pipeline
| reply to Raz
said by Raz :said by Mele20 :...And most routers somehow know to clone the MAC address? Maybe you need to clone the MAC address. Not everybody needs to do that. I certainly do not. I have NEVER yet come across a router that didn't just work out of the box, as long as you boot things in the correct order especially (modem, router, then computer).
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The Firefox alternative.
»www.mozilla.org/projects/seamonkey/ |
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daveinpoway
Premium
join:2006-07-03
Poway, CA
| reply to Annorax
It seems to me that a lot of this could be avoided if the router manufacturers would make it mandatory that you go into the setup and set a new password before the unit will function; I believe this could be done by only adding a minimal amount of extra code to the router's internal firmware. To do it right, the setup screen should give the user some tips on creating a secure password.
Unfortunately, concerns about things like extra tech-support time being required to walk clueless users through this step means that something like this probably will not become common any time soon. |
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Annorax
join:2001-03-27
Apex, NC
| reply to Mele20
Road Runner requires the MAC address be entered.
Not So!
Road Runner will take a new MAC address if you leave the cable modem powered-off for 90 seconds or so before powering it back up again with new router (powered off) attached.
Once the modem has sync'ed up, power-on the router and it should work just fine with its default MAC address |
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EGeezer
Go Bobcats
Premium
join:2002-08-04
Country!
·Callcentric
·RoadRunner Cable
·AT&T CallVantage
1 edit | reply to nukscull
Re: swapping devices
said by nukscull :
You just have to power cycle the modem to get it to recognize a new MAC address. I do this all the time with if I have to connect something other than my router direct to the modem. It will not work if you just plug something in, you need to power cycle it and it will register the new MAC now plugged in and give you a new IP.
I have had TWRR for several years. That's how mine works too. I occasionally swap devices (PCs, routers, network printers etc) for configuration and testing purposes. My steps are as follows;
1) Power off downstream device
2) Power off modem
3) Swap device
4) Power up modem
5) Power up device
Works every time.
Now if I were to move my modem to another location - or get another modem, that's a different situation. I have to have TWRR register that modem at that location.
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If dogs travel in space at the speed of light, do they reach their destination in dog-light years? |
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ahulett
Life Without Walls
Premium
join:2003-02-02
Bellevue, WA
2 edits | reply to Cheese
Re: In the Wild: Zlob Changing Router Settings to Hijack DNS
It could be her specific market requires MAC registration whereas other markets do not (or maybe it's changed since initial sign-up - these things do change). Such as sometimes when a modem is registered in one Comcast service area and the customer moves to another, one may need to call to have the modem removed from that market's database so it can be registered in the new market. In my case, I didn't hit that when moving to from Michigan to Redmond, but I've seen others experience this when using their own modems.
The key here is to a) get router usernames/passwords off defaults, and b) help protect customers from such malicious code that leverages default usernames/passwords. While I have a much better shot at B than I do A, maybe an idea that router manufacturers can take away (Are any of you lurking?), if they're not already doing this today, is to jail WAN access until the default username/password is changed. This way, users are automatically sent to a configuration page and are walked through making the necessary changes to help secure their router.
[Edit - add my signature (with disclaimer) that seems to not add itself automatically when quick-replying]
--
Aaron Hulett | Senior Spyware Researcher | Microsoft Malware Protection Center
This posting is provided "AS IS" without warranty, and confers no rights. |
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Cheese
Premium
join:2003-10-26
Naples, FL
clubs:
1 edit | reply to Mele20
said by Mele20 :said by ahulett :Cloning a MAC address isn't always necessary. I know for me with Comcast, that when the modem is powered on, it looks at the MAC address of the network device plugged into it, and if it's a router, it latches onto it just as it would if it was a computer's network card. (Where one enters trouble is if they change what the modem is plugged into - it won't work until the modem is power-cycled and the modem picks up the new MAC address.) If I go to Best Buy, pick out a router/switch/WAP all-in-one device, come home and plug it in, it will work out of the box because the router will pull an address from the cable modem, will perform no logging in which is ok as that's not needed on a Comcast Internet connection, and the interal DHCP is set to hand out IP address to clients on the home network. While this works with Comcast, other ISPs may have different needs, such as if a DSL connection requires logging in via PPPoE, for example, or if the ISP ties the login with a specific MAC address (such as the one used to complete the sign-up). Hope I was helpful. It is 1:30am and I struggle with clarity when I'm sleepy.  Aaron [Edit to get the signature with the all-important disclaimer included.] Road Runner requires the MAC address be entered. Plus, I had to configure both computers (one is a 98SE box) and then configure the router. Not hard to do but it certainly wasn't automatic out the box, plug it in, and whamo everything works. Besides being required to enter the router interface to configure it, I had to get into the interface to be able to change the DHCP lease time. The router I have is Version 3 and Linksy has a Version 4 that people are still buying and you have to configure the computers and then the router still. I never had to put a MAC address in for RR, they ran the line, hooked up the router and it connected, no configuring needed.
Mele, no offense, but I see you spread alot of FUD around here, maybe you shouldn't talk if you don't know what you are talking about |
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Cheese
Premium
join:2003-10-26
Naples, FL
clubs:
| reply to Mele20
said by Mele20 :Huh? How can you buy a "preset" router? Granted mine will be 5 years old in November but I don't understand what you mean. You have to clone the MAC address for one thing. That can't be done at Amazon. You go to the store and buy it. |
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altermatt
Premium
join:2004-01-22
White Plains, NY
·Verizon Online DSL
| reply to bcastner
It's also interesting to see that 11 of 32 anti-malware products detected this. Here are the results at Virus Total of the three separate scans of the three nasties submitted there that are related to this; the analysis is broken down by product; for each that does detect something, the name of what they think it is, is shown:
»www.virustotal.com/analisis/d5c3···acc41d3a
»www.virustotal.com/analisis/a5a4···69df1363
»www.virustotal.com/analisis/6af3···fc2c930e
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The truth of a thing is the feel of it, not the think of it. -- Stanley Kubrick |
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Aaed Alqarta
 from:
EGeezer
| reply to bcastner
I've compiled a countermeasures list to stop and prevent DNSChanger. Check here:
»extremesecurity.blogspot.com/200···ked.html |
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nukscull
@rr.com
| reply to Mele20
said by Mele20 :Road Runner requires the MAC address be entered. No they don't. You just have to power cycle the modem to get it to recognize a new MAC address. I do this all the time with if I have to connect something other than my router direct to the modem. It will not work if you just plug something in, you need to power cycle it and it will register the new MAC now plugged in and give you a new IP. |
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Raz
@tele.dk
from:
Grail Knight
| reply to Mele20
said by Mele20 :Obviously, my ISP and router are superior because they require you to... ...clone your MAC address?  |
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nwrickert
sand groper
Premium,MVM
join:2004-09-04
Geneva, IL
·AT&T U-Verse
·AT&T Midwest
| reply to DownTheShore
There's a lot of knowledge about things that is "understood" here by people which is never articulated because the assumption is that everyone knows what the next steps should be, or what the consequences are, or how the thing actually works - but that always isn't true. Perhaps. However, the importance of changing the router administrative password has been often repeated here.
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AT&T dsl; Westell 327w modem/router; SuSE 10.1; firefox 2.0.0.14 |
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DownTheShore
Maddie Knows Poopie
Premium
join:2003-12-02
Beautiful NJ
clubs:
| reply to bcastner
What you folks have to remember about routers is that you all tend to say "I have a router so I don't worry about that" or "Get a router and you won't have to worry about that" in your posts. So to those of us who only have a modium of technical awareness, we think we are taking a big step forward by getting the router and hooking it up. I know that I had no fuss when hooking up my router to the OOL system. But I knew from being here for years that one of the things I should do is change the name and password, which I did immediately. But that's not something the average person would even think about.
There's a lot of knowledge about things that is "understood" here by people which is never articulated because the assumption is that everyone knows what the next steps should be, or what the consequences are, or how the thing actually works - but that always isn't true. A lot of us have just a finite bit of understanding, and sometimes we just don't know the follow-up questions that should be asked. For example, I'm learning now in another thread some basic answers about imaging a hard driver, things that I was never quite clear about - like whether or not the image is the actual size or a compressed size.
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Life is simply one damned thing after another. |
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EGeezer
Go Bobcats
Premium
join:2002-08-04
Country!
·Callcentric
·RoadRunner Cable
·AT&T CallVantage
1 edit | reply to bcastner
Re: Yesterday's "useless POC" becomes ...
said by bcastner :This is a completely different attack vector than the ones using Flash and javascript discussed earlier. ... But yes, this Forum has been right there on this issue of the router itself as an attack surface from early on. I agree the method used (scripting versus malware) is different, but still uses the concept of exploiting a router's default settings from the LAN side. The big argument presented in the earlier discussions was that it was impractical to consider LAN side attempts unless one was hacking one's own network.
However that is now discredited, at least in part, by a working "in the wild" exploit that has taken advantage of the opportunity and complacence of the user community.
And yes, you and others here are right at the forefront - that's what I like about this bunch 
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If dogs travel in space at the speed of light, do they reach their destination in dog-light years? |
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bcastner
Premium,VIP,MVM
join:2002-09-25
Chevy Chase, MD
clubs:
·Verizon Online DSL
| reply to EGeezer
This is a completely different attack vector than the ones using Flash and javascript discussed earlier.
In this case you have Zlob using the address space of several components of the Winlogon process, and the edits to the router itself are done through straight Winsock calls.
But yes, this Forum has been right there on this issue of the router itself as an attack surface from early on. |
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