mityfowl
join:2000-11-06
Dallas, TX | reply to CylonRed
Re: water heater installed right?
There is so much baloney that the OP has bought into I can't even comment. |
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CylonRed
Premium,MVM
join:2000-07-06
Bloom County
| reply to irked
quote:
He also said something about the copper pipes have to be connected together with a wire so they are grounded on both sides.
Egad, one more thing! Good to know.
I have never seen the above - mine is not set up like that and I trust my Master plumber who is the business owner and a close friend for over 20+ years. |
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irked
@verizon.net
| reply to Lisa Mangeoni
said by Lisa Mangeoni :
How much was the sales tax on this job ?
$70, the standard 8.x% sales tax.
Was the first installer insured ?
Probably not.
Did you find the manual ?
Only on the A.O. Smith website. Was never given one.
Was a new ball shutoff valve installed ?
I have no idea! Will ask.
What temperature did he set it at ?
Two notches down from Very Hot. There are settings A,B, and C above a notch that must mean Medium. It's set for B. The temperature is good for washing dishes, not too hot or cold.
Do you use city or well water ?
City. NY city water is soft, good.
Did plumber show you how to use the drain valve every 6 months to remove sediment ?
NO. I'll ask him.
I called my plumber and he said your price was very high for a 30 gallon tank installed, he wanted to know if you used a well instead of city water.
It's a 50-gallon tank, non-conservationist. The wholesale price is $420 at one local dealer. Things are expensive in NYC.
He also said something about the copper pipes have to be connected together with a wire so they are grounded on both sides.
Egad, one more thing! Good to know.
My tank is 32 years old, I expect it to act up any year now.
That's truly amazing. My old one lasted 13 years. The plumber never told me anything about flushing it out. I'll ask the new plumber what to do when he comes back for the faucets.
Thank you for the additional insights! |
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mityfowl
join:2000-11-06
Dallas, TX
4 edits | reply to Lisa Mangeoni
Average life is 9-15 years. Depends.
»www.hgtv.com/hgtv/shows_toh/arti···,00.html
I got 20 on my last one with flushing anually. |
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Lisa Mangeoni
@covad.net
| reply to irked
How much was the sales tax on this job ?
Was the first installer insured ?
Did you find the manual ?
Was a new ball shutoff valve installed ?
What temperature did he set it at ?
Do you use city or well water ?
Did plumber show you how to use the drain valve every 6 months to remove sediment ?
I called my plumber and he said your price was very high for a 30 gallon tank installed, he wanted to know if you used a well instead of city water.
He also said something about the copper pipes have to be connected together with a wire so they are grounded on both sides.
My tank is 32 years old, I expect it to act up any year now. |
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mityfowl
join:2000-11-06
Dallas, TX
2 edits | reply to irked
Maybe time to let this thread go. I think the OP is on a mission. |
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irked
@verizon.net
| reply to pbvan
It's good to know people are reading this thread and others. I appreciate your info about the potential insurance problem and your moral support. I hope people will read it who are going to buy a water heater, to save them what we went through. This whole business is really scary. You can't trust "experts" in any field and must do your own research and ask questions.
Now there's the problem of what to do about this. I'm planning to write the installer a letter with the points raised in this forum. But I also think authorities should be notified, such as AO Smith, because I doubt he would clean up his act. There is a website on which the installer got a high rating (probably from himself), so I could go there and file a negative one. Any thoughts, anyone? |
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pbvan
join:2003-02-09
Fairfax, VA
| reply to irked
Have been reading this thread with interest. I too recently had an AO Smith GAS HWH replaced with an "apprentice" doing the work. He was fine until his boss left. After getting the boss/owner back I also had similar issues. He fixed them along with others he found, without charge.
One important fact came about when I was talking to my financial guy who also happens to have the same insurance company as me. He explained that if the HWH was installed incorrectly and something happened, knock on wood, that our insurance co would NOT pay for damages. That I would have to go after the plumber's company. I spoke with the owner, and he verified this. One reason why he insists that the install be exactly what the manufacturer had dictated on the instructions.
So I am glad you brought up your issues. Whether some here found them to be trivial or not, it is your home and responsibility to take care of it and feel safe in it. We gals have to stick together. |
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irked
@verizon.net
| reply to tp0d
The plumber (licensed) came today, said the corrected job was still ugly. He noticed another potential problem: plastic drips and residue from the joint where the pipe comes out of the water heater to the water lines. The plastic was from the joint tape. He thought that indicated the installer had improperly used heat on this joint, possibly damaging the plastic liner of the pipe segment that comes out of the heater. He said that could interfere with proper water flow and that pieces of the plastic liner might come loose and clog the water lines farther up.A nightmare, since their location would be somewhere unknown in the walls.
I paid him to remove the cold-water intake pipe (which was warm, a bad sign, he says, indicating hot water was backing up into the cold-water line) and check the plastic liner. It was deformed a little but he didn't think it needed to be replaced, and that the one on the hot water outflow pipe was probably OK.
The original installer cut the cold water pipe in order to drain it even though he also tried to drain the heater using the valve. The cold water in the line was preventing the torch from heating the solder enough to melt it. Then he had to splice the line back together.
The new plumber replaced the spliced segment and it all looks much better, no solder visible at all. But the important thing is that the draft hood is now in place and the water lines are (one hopes) all right. He told me AO Smith should be notified that one of their dealers was doing such poor work (using heat on the joint, deforming the plastic liner). I hope that isn't contractor bushwa too.
He said I don't need an expansion tank.
Installing the draft hood was so easy he didn't even charge me for it (he cut the vent pipe to accommodate the hood, to maintain the angle of rise of the vent), and cleaning up the solder was also easy when it was hot. It would have been easy for the previous installer to do a good job, he just didn't. So inexplicable, so sad, so potentially dangerous.
Thanks so much again to you and some of the other contributors for your expertise and willingness to share it. Four cheers for you and DSL reports. (And raspberries for the snipers in the peanut gallery.) |
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irked
@verizon.net
| reply to irked
To TpOd: Thank you once again. I don't live near Pittsburgh, but appreciate your offer.
In the Frick coal mines, miners were required to fill their coal cars so full that a cap placed on top would roll off. This was known as a Frick hump. So today, if you want an extra-large helping of food, you ask for a Frick hump.
A little levity is welcome at this point, no? To counteract the bad vibes from certain responders.
To bury them deep: No manual came with the unit. I had to find it online (wasn't that clear from the earlier posts?) And no permit was necessary (ditto) hence no inspection. And this setup worked with no deaths for at least thirteen years. Sorry to disappoint you. |
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tp0d
yabbazooie
Premium
join:2001-02-13
Carnegie, PA
clubs:
 ·Verizon FIOS
| reply to irked
said by irked :
BTW, I was near Carnegie, PA just last week, at Connellsville. Learned a lot about the coal and coke industries. Just fascinating. Do you know what a Frick Hump is?
You're welcome for the information, though it is part of my normal job to educate the consumer.
The 'draft diverter' you describe sounds more like a backdraft dampener, and does nothing to break the high negative pressure of a warm chimney. The factory supplied diverter allows the chimney to pull excess air from the room instead of directly from the heater, effectively increasing the thermal efficiency of the tank. When the chimney gets hot, it pulls more air up, and will actually pull the hot gasses out of the heater faster than the gasses can exchange their heat into the cold tank. That can change a normal heater's efficiency of 70-75% to less than 60%, increasing your gas bill.
Connellsville eh.. thats about an hour away, but I`ve been there many a time. As for a Frick Hump, I know who Frick is, but the hump part might be for a different forum  Let me guess, its a coal formation? hmmm I dunno..
If you are within 1.5hrs of Pittsburgh, I can generate a service call from the model/serials of your heater and at least give you a 1-1 recommendation of the install, at no charge. You would have to PM me for the information though, I wont post a phone# here. Our shop is local to the PGH area.
-j
--
if it aint broke, tweak it!!
currently on FiOS (kick aZZ!) |
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irked
@verizon.net
| reply to irked
Re: water heater installed right?
To Robbin,
When I used your link earlier I got discouraged by all the roadblocks on that website, and also confused by the discussion in the thread at the time. A.O. Smith's manual was more accessible to me, anyway. Then I was told the draft diverter made the installation of the draft hood unnecessary.
I googled draft diverter just now and saw one that looked like the draft hood, but my draft diverter is consists of a loose door into the flue that flaps when a draft comes down the chimney (I guess).
I'll ask the plumber tomorrow. It won't be a big deal to install the draft hood that came with the unit. Thanks for your help and concern. Please don't get discouraged helping homeowners who are floundering around looking for guidance and turn to DSL reports for help. |
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robbin
Premium,MVM
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX
| reply to irked
said by irked :
Not only that, the recommendation to install the draft hood anyway. I have to be discouraged that you didn't follow the trail of information provided. I posted links to the code and gave a link to the section regarding the draft hood. If you would go there and read a half page of information you would see that the draft hood is required, the draft hood is required to be in the same room to equalize pressure, the draft hood is required to be assessable so that you can visually examine it to make sure it is not obstructed, etc, etc. I really wish you would open the link I provided and read it for yourself. Maybe then you could interact with the plumber in a knowledgeable fashion.
You said the installer "Told me the draft hood wasn't necessary because there already was a draft diverter in the vent flue farther up." Google draft diverter and you will find that it is a draft hood. |
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irked
@verizon.net
| reply to irked
Re: water heater installed right?
Last fall when I was researching water heaters I wanted to run screaming into the night over permits, tank vs. tankless, capacity, brands, etc. Now this about expansion tanks and the need to have the unit cleaned! All news! Not only that, the recommendation to install the draft hood anyway. The installer didn't say anything about an expansion tank and I have no idea if he checked the pressure.
A plumber is coming tomorrow about my dripping shower. I can't figure out where the washers, if any, might be. I'll ask him about the water heater too. And have him check its gas hookup. I don't want to bug the installer again and am not sure I want him back anyway. I'll ask the plumber to put in the draft hood.
Thanks, TpOd, I'm very glad to know about these additional factors. What a pandora's box I opened up with my question about the solder drips and tape! That is one of the great things about DSL reports, though; you get wonderfully detailed answers to questions, the real nitty gritty.
I wish more homeowners could find their way to this discussion. There's so much valuable information in it. We're so at the mercy of contractors (or we WERE).
BTW, I was near Carnegie, PA just last week, at Connellsville. Learned a lot about the coal and coke industries. Just fascinating. Do you know what a Frick Hump is? |
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tp0d
yabbazooie
Premium
join:2001-02-13
Carnegie, PA
clubs:
·Verizon FIOS
1 edit | reply to Crymeariver
said by Crymeariver :
So there was nothing wrong in the first place. Four days of people overreacting, citing codes and arguing over draft hoods not to mention questioning the original installer's work.
LOL
Dont you have turds to fling elsewhere, troll? Go sniff up someone else's butt.
Nothing wrong with a little civil discourse. Unless you lack the mental fortitude.
--
if it aint broke, tweak it!!
currently on FiOS (kick aZZ!) |
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tp0d
yabbazooie
Premium
join:2001-02-13
Carnegie, PA
clubs:
·Verizon FIOS
1 edit | reply to irked
said by irked :
The installer came back today. Told me the draft hood wasn't necessary because there already was a draft diverter in the vent flue farther up. That must explain why the plumber who installed the previous heater did not install the draft hood either.
irked:
As a service agent, if the heater was not installed as specified in the manual, I would possibly be inclined to void the warranty.
There is a very important reason the manuals are worded as they are. They are checked and re-checked by engineers, then by the legal team. The heater is designed to function in one way only, as described in the manual. Yes, it may or may not work well in other installs, but that is where the warranty ends. Water heater companies have been sued for millions for idiotic lawsuits, and because of the 'compassionate' law system, the companies lost most.
So, again, as a service agent, I have to strongly recommend that the heater is installed as described in the manual, not only for your safety, but the long-term reliability of the heater.
Ohya, forgot to mention.. Did your installer put in an expansion tank, or did he check the existing tank for proper pressure? This will extend the life of your heater usually by 2x. Though its not currently 'required', new policies are being adopted to void warranties due to a lack of proper thermal expansion. There is just too much loss due to it.
Are you also aware that the new breed of heaters require cleanings usually every two years? (every 40/50gal chimney model since 2003 of every manufacturer has to have some type of spark arresting capability). It is because of the spark arrestor that lint and dirt will clog the heater over time (usually 2yrs) and the heater will shut down, on its safety limits. You can PM me for more info on this (you`ll have to register with DSLR tho)
Plz, get that flue repaired properly.
-j
--
if it aint broke, tweak it!!
currently on FiOS (kick aZZ!) |
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irked
@verizon.net
 from:
3SGTE 
whizkid3
thumbs down from:
whizkid3
| reply to irked
Thank you, dear Sand Shark, for your support throughout all this interesting and sometimes rough voyage.
Again, I hope nobody is "irked" that I wasted their time. Roses to all the caring craftspeople of the world, a vanishing breed. |
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Crymeariver
@charter.com | reply to SandShark
Ah yes. Because I looked at the situation objectively instead of jumping to conclusions, that makes me a troll. Nice one. |
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