robbin
Premium,MVM
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX
1 edit | reply to dolphins
Re: water heater installed right?
NFGC 12.11.7 is NFPA 54 12.11.7. They are one and the same. I referenced it as NFGC as that is how it had been referenced throughout the discussion in this thread. If you open the document I have now given you multiple links to you will see that it is the National Fuel Gas Code. Open the document and page through it until you get to chapter 12, then find section 11, then paragraph 7 and then read what is written.
Let's see if I can make this easy to understand. Often in this forum whizkid3  makes reference to the NEC or National Electric Code. He could just as easily call it NFPA 70 as NFPA 70 is the National Electric Code. Similarly NFPA 54 is the National Fuel Gas Code (NFGC).
[edit] spelling |
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3SGTE
ST215W
Premium,MVM
join:2000-11-23
there
clubs:
| reply to irked
I found it.
It wasn't tough. |
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SandShark
So it goes
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-23
Santa Fe, TX
clubs:
 ·Verizon Online DSL
| reply to robbin
You guys are losing me. We're still discussing whether or not any type/kind of tape should be used on vent pipe connections, right?
3SGTE posted, what I believe, are the only means approved by the NFGC. The first two methods are pretty straightforward - sheet metal screws and the methods listed in the vent pipe manufacturers' instructions. The third method - By other approved means - leaves me believing means approved by local/state code enforcement authorities.
I've viewed installation instructions of five vent pipe manufacturers whose products I've used, Simpson Dura-vent, Hart and Cooley, Metal-Fab, MetalBestos and Ampco AmeriVent, and I cannot find any mention of using tape to secure joints. In fact, sheet metal screws are not required by some of them. In my locality, screws are not permitted because using too long of screws can penetrate the inner liner of the vent pipe.
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irked
@verizon.net
| reply to irked
To introduce a new complication, the manufacturer of the water heater in question (A.O. Smith) says "do not install without draft hood." This was in the manual on their website,
»www.hotwater.com/lit/im/res_gas/···-003.pdf pp 12-13
The plumber (a good one) who installed the previous unit did not use the hood, nor did the one who installed the new one.
Should I insist that the current installer remove the questionable tape, cut the vent pipe and install the draft hood? If not having one was OK (apparently) for 13 years, then why is one necessary?
Underneath the tape I can see and feel that the vent pipe overlaps and snugly fits the vent pipe coming out of the water heater. The tape seems to be just an additional seal. Still, Smith wants the draft hood. Which expert should I believe? |
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dolphins
Miami Dolphins
Premium
join:2001-08-22
Westville, NJ
 ·Comcast
1 edit | Hi irked,
Sorry for the confusion.
The mentioned flue tape is not mentioned anywhere as code by the NFGC as some people would have you believe even though it is not stated anywhere as 3SGTE conveniently posted.
Flue pipes are gravity controlled and would not need any type of tape if properly installed. I am not saying that the use of such tape is prohibited, I'm just clarifying that it is not mentioned in the NFGC as robbin stated.
My reasoning is that any type of tape used to repair damaged flue pipe will not last and is a hazzard. If the mentioned flue pipe is properly installed without any damage and the tape is just an extra precaution then I see no reason why it can't be used.
Can you post a picture of the flue pipe in question? How is the flue pipe connected to the water heater if a draft hood is not used?
Edit: Try using a graphics editor to save your picture as a jpeg then upload it here.
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Ken
Premium,MVM
join:2003-06-16
Brownsburg, IN
| reply to irked
This is getting kind of confusing. The code says you can connect pipe with:
sheet metal screws
vent connectors
other approved means
What that means to me is if you can find flue tape that says it is listed to connect flue pipe together, then you can use it. Now let me clarify, I don't mean flue tape that says it can be used on flue pipes to seal joints, it has to say it is rated to connect pipes together and hold them without other types of physical fasteners. It has to be rated to be the sole means of attaching pipes together, and hold the weight of the pipe in a vertical application. If you can find a tape that is listed to do that, then it is legal to use that as your connecting method. For reference I don't think tape rated to do that exists.
Now just to confuse things even more, if you already used sheet metal screws, then can you use the flue tape anyway? I would say yes, because code doesn't disallow using flue tape, it just says it can't be used as the sole method of fastening pipe together unless it is listed for such a purpose. So if you use sheet metal screws to attach the pipes, then code is satisfied, and I think you would be able to go over the joint with flue tape. But like someone else already said, there should be no need whatsoever to use the flue tape.
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tp0d
yabbazooie
Premium
join:2001-02-13
Carnegie, PA
clubs:
 ·Verizon FIOS
2 edits | 
User manual |
I have read all the posts past mine, quite the back-and-forth... As for the NFGC issue, I may have pushed the envelope on a 'grey' topic, but does the code state that tape is legal? anywhere? Screws are certainly mentioned. Its more a matter of common sense, which a lot of people seem to lack nowadays.
I referenced AO Smith's installation manual, for a GCV50 (which is the most common 50gal CAT-I water heater), manual is found here: »www.hotwater.com/lit/im/res_gas/···-003.pdf
They state, on page 12, that the venting must be secured at each joint with sheet metal screws. (as circled above). Tape is not mentioned anywhere.
Tape is the sign of a sloppy job. We have no doubts about that already, due to the solder goobers found on the pipe. As a self-employed plumber, I am very particular about my jobs, and want them to be installed "perfect". Sounds like you have an installer that doesnt care too much..
If your heater isnt installed like the above picture (fig. 11) with the vent hood attached with its 3 or 4 legs, you need to get the plumber back ASAP. That is a dangerous situation.
My specialty is water heaters, I am an AO Smith Service Agent, for commercial and residential. I also represent State water heaters, Bradford White, and the Bosch Corp, for their instantaneous water heaters.
-j
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currently on FiOS (kick aZZ!) |
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robbin
Premium,MVM
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX
| said by tp0d :As for the NFGC issue, I may have pushed the envelope on a 'grey' topic, but does the code state that tape is legal? anywhere? Screws are certainly mentioned. Its more a matter of common sense, which a lot of people seem to lack nowadays. I have been looking at this from the opposite direction. If the vent pieces are properly joined mechanically either by sheet metal screws or by manufacturer's instructions then would adding tape cause the installation to fail an inspection? If the tape is non-combustible and designed for the application temperature wise then it doesn't appear to me that it would. I certainly would not want just tape holding the joints together if a mechanical fastener were required. On the other hand if a double wall flue pipe were used that twists together with no other fastener required then instead of it being sloppy work I would consider adding tape overkill. No it's not needed but it won't hurt anything and may make the vent pipe installation a little tighter regarding leaks.
The tape discussion is actually minor compared to the major code violation of the installation -- the lack of a vent hood. 12.13.2 clearly states that if the appliance is supplied with or designed for one that it shall be used "without alteration, exactly as furnished & specified by the appliance manufacturer." |
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irked
@verizon.net
 from:
SandShark
dolphins
| reply to irked
So, the solder goobers and the tape WERE indicators of a sloppy job. More important, indicators of the worse problem, the lack of the draft hood. So glad I asked. Good old DSLreports and the people who care enough to answer queries.
Thanks very very much to all of you who went after the hard info and blessings to all who still have high standards in this era. The people you do work for are lucky.
A parting word from "irked": I'M A DAME! That won't surprise certain responders.
THANKS, GUYS!!! Now to go polish off those fingerprints and remove those permits and seals, and put a doily on top. |
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robbin
Premium,MVM
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX
| reply to SandShark
said by SandShark :The first two methods are pretty straightforward - sheet metal screws and the methods listed in the vent pipe manufacturers' instructions. I'd like to continue this discussion a little regarding the code. I initially referenced the "Joints" part of the code in reference to the OP stating
"I found the following on bradfordwhite.com, part of their manual for installing water heaters, so thought the tape is OK.
"WARNING All joints in the vent/air intake piping must be taped with aluminum tape at the completion of the venting system installation to prevent any possible leakage into the room. Make sure all the pipe connections are firmly pressed together so that the gaskets form a tight seal."
When I read (2) of the code I don't get the same straightforward interpretation as SandShark does. The question in my mind is who does "manufacturer's instructions" refer to? I believe it refers not only to the vent pipe manufacturer but also the appliance (water heater) manufacturer. The reason I make this interpretation is the reference to the vent hood. The vent hood, according to other parts of the code, is an integral part of the "listed" appliance. In addition other parts of the code when referencing a manufacturer define the manufacturer such as accessory, appliance, etc which strangely lacking in this paragraph.
I'm not trying to be argumentative here. Often times the do-it-yourselfer wants to do things correctly but doesn't know the code or even that it is available without buying it. Since they are available online I would like to encourage more of us to make use of the resource and learn more regarding the proper method of doing our weekend projects in a professional manner. Yet the code is not always easy to understand even after reading it. Perhaps if we practice it makes it easier.
So what do you think regarding "manufacturer's instructions? I believe that the code comes first but what when the installation instructions lead to a "grey" area which doesn't seem to be a violation but isn't defined as approved? |
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Crymeariver
@charter.com
| reply to irked
That this thread is still on the front page..
It's real simple. Call in another plumber for a second opinion. Having people on the Internet bicker back and forth over tape, screws, draft hoods and codes does nothing to improve your safety. Calling the same plumber that did the work does nothing either if you feel that uncomfortable.
Call in another professional. Pay for the house call which you're going to mostly likely get billed for. There's no arguing that you shouldn't have to, because you'll be paying for piece of mind or finding out that the first installer endangered your safety. If the latter should be the case, then you bill him for the house call and for any other charges incurred to have it fixed.
Note to self: If I ever feel that a contractor has endangered my life or the lives of my loved ones, don't ask people on the Internet for help. |
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SandShark
So it goes
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-23
Santa Fe, TX
clubs:
·Verizon Online DSL
| said by Crymeariver :
That this thread is still on the front page..
It's real simple. Call in another plumber for a second opinion. Having people on the Internet bicker back and forth over tape, screws, draft hoods and codes does nothing to improve your safety. Calling the same plumber that did the work does nothing either if you feel that uncomfortable.
Call in another professional. Pay for the house call which you're going to mostly likely get billed for. There's no arguing that you shouldn't have to, because you'll be paying for piece of mind or finding out that the first installer endangered your safety. If the latter should be the case, then you bill him for the house call and for any other charges incurred to have it fixed.
Note to self: If I ever feel that a contractor has endangered my life or the lives of my loved ones, don't ask people on the Internet for help.
What's really sad, Cry, is the OP paid a professional price to have something as simple as having a water heater installed. The "professional" plumber who did the installation was recommended by a contractor friend, so the OP must have felt comfortable that her contractor friend was going to recommend someone with experience and who would do a professional installation. Sadly, such was not the case.
I commend the OP for posting her concerns in our little home improvement forum. Imagine if she had called in another "professional" plumber and he told her, "Looks fine to me, ma'am. That'll be $80." She'd still be in the same boat. At least, by coming here and posting her concerns she's gotten some damn good advice, if you ask me. She even said so herself.
I suppose if there's a moral to the story it's that you really can't trust anyone these days to do a professional job. That's why the Internet is so great. People can go online and find a lot of useful and informative information, whether it's from one of those "professional" websites or in a little ol' home improvement forum like ours.
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Photography is more than a medium for factual communication of ideas; it is a creative art. - Ansel Adams |
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Crymeariver
@charter.com
| Those are all good points. However, this isn't a wobbly table or something. She's obviously troubled over this and posting about it on the Internet isn't helping the hazard that may or may not exist in the first place. Three days now, and I'll bet nothing has been done..no professional has been out, no one has looked at the craftsmanship. That's three days of whatever worse scenario could have happened--make that four, because it isn't getting looked at tonight either.
I'd gladly spend $80US if I was that concerned. If it only took the guy ten minutes to tell me that my basement isn't going to catch fire or I'm not going to die in my sleep from carbon monoxide poisoning I'd have no problems with it.
As far as it being shoddy workmanship goes..that's your opinion. Until you've been over there to see it yourself don't pass it off as fact. |
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robbin
Premium,MVM
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX
| At this point it is past shoddy workmanship. If, in fact, what has been posted is true and there is no draft hood it's a code violation and safety hazard. I will agree with SandShark on what he has posted. Hiring someone else who may also throw the draft hood away as unnecessary and having them say everything looks OK because that the way they do it also wouldn't make things any safer. I am pretty sure that many "plumbers" throw the draft hood away as unnecessary and they actually think they are making the install better by making a direct connection. I think what SandShark said sums it up nicely, not just for this thread but for all of the things we discuss, debate, and see here. It seems so true and at the same time so sad.
"What's really sad ... is the OP paid a professional price to have something as simple as having a water heater installed. The "professional" plumber who did the installation was recommended by a contractor friend, so the OP must have felt comfortable that her contractor friend was going to recommend someone with experience and who would do a professional installation. Sadly, such was not the case... I suppose if there's a moral to the story it's that you really can't trust anyone these days to do a professional job." |
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mityfowl
join:2000-11-06
Dallas, TX
2 edits | I disagree.
This job was OK. Not neat but ok.
I think OP would be hard to work for and then she would blame you because she chisseled off solder globs and damaged something.
OP has said multiple times that OP is unable to upload a picture. OP said called a friend of contractor to do the job not a licenced plumber. Hasn't said but I would guess OP tried to save a few bucks. Nothing wrong with that but as the man says "You pay your money and you take your chances".
I would say OP got what was paid for. |
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Crymeariver
@charter.com | reply to robbin
Ok. So you're saying that getting a second opinion from this forum on the Internet is better than having another professional inspect the work firsthand and/or fix the problem, if there is a problem. Gotcha. |
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NOCMan
Verizon Fios User
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Flower Mound, TX | reply to irked
850 should of bought you a nice tankless water heater.
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irked
@verizon.net
from:
dolphins
SandShark
| reply to irked
The installer came back today. Told me the draft hood wasn't necessary because there already was a draft diverter in the vent flue farther up. That must explain why the plumber who installed the previous heater did not install the draft hood either. The installer cleaned up the solder dribbles and put on new tape.
Some responders seem quick to criticize, missing or misinterpreting information already in the thread or not considering certain factors. To reply to some of the comments, knowing I probably shouldn't:
The installer was recommended by a contractor who had previously recommended a roofer who did an Outstanding job, with a capital O. Naturally I had confidence in anyone this contractor would recommend. The installer wasn't some buddy of said contractor, but someone in business doing water heaters and heating. I wasn't looking for a cheap job. I paid the roofer $1000 more than his too-low price because he did such a fabulous job under difficult conditions.
Nobody got asphyxiated in 13 years by the previous water-heater installation (also without the draft hood) and it WAS the weekend, so just what was wrong with seeking multiple viewpoints on DSL reports?? The question of the draft hood didn't come up until late Saturday or Sunday. To get the same broad spectrum of opinions I'd have to call in several plumbers and wouldn't know who to believe.
I've uploaded photos to other websites, so I feel the problem is not at my end.
Again, thanks immensely to all the helpful responders. DSL reports is a tremendous resource and I'll continue to use it. |
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Crymeariver
@charter.com
thumbs down from:
SandShark
| reply to irked
So there was nothing wrong in the first place. Four days of people overreacting, citing codes and arguing over draft hoods not to mention questioning the original installer's work.
LOL |
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irked
@verizon.net
from:
SandShark
| reply to irked
Cryme's comments did sting a little despite his LOL at the end.
I sincerely hope I didn't waste anyone's time with my query, which started out as a question about whether that aluminum tape was OK or not. The solder drips were really secondary.
Evwyyting awww better now for me anyway, no longer irked or worried. Thanks once again, and apologies to anyone who feels they wasted their time. Wasn't it all interesting, though? |
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