dslreports logo
 
    All Forums Hot Topics Gallery
spc

spacer




how-to block ads


Search Topic:
uniqs
43
share rss forum feed

BandHeight

join:2004-08-30
reply to Mele20

Re: Firefox 3 honors Windows Security Zones...

said by Mele20:

That article doesn't seem very relevant. It is talking about email attachments. Besides, IE has always been very unsafe as far as downloads go as you can RUN the download. In Fx you are REQUIRED to save to disk which is much safer. So, I don't see where Microsoft can get off telling Fx users how to handle downloads. That's just crap.
Do you think I just made that up? That I dug through the MSDN and picked that article at random?

It is exactly relevant because that is the interface at the core of the issue being discussed.

MS did not tell FF users how to handle downloads. They provided a programming interface that the Mozilla team chose to use.

Please see this bug report where the idea to use IAttachmentExecute was initially introduced for FF 3, specifically Firefox 3 beta4 (see especially comments 8-15):

»bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cg ··· d=408153

Also, for Cudni and the rest following the discussion about where this behavior originally appeared in Windows products and to get a glimpse at (some) of the original thinking on possibly using the IAE interface in FF (goes back to 2004):

»bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cg ··· d=236771

said by Mele20:

As for me embracing Fx3 "now"...damn good thing I have 1.5 on the host machine. Fx3 on my XP Pro SP2 virtual machine appears completely borked ...
Of course it is. I wouldn't have expected you to describe a successful user-experience.

But those of us who have it running perfectly on multiple OSes (even without the unbelievable amount of changes you claim must be made for it to be "usable"), we will just continue on.

Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:6

1 edit
Thank you for the link to the bug report. That was very interesting reading.

I still don't get it because there are no ADS on downloads from Fx3. I just downloaded Eicar, both the .exe and one of the zips, and saved them to my downloaded programs folder. Then I right click scanned them for ADS and they have none. I ran them both and Fx didn't popup any warning. I have no AV installed at the moment on this XP Pro guest machine so I was able to download the .exe one which ordinarily my AV would stop me before the download started. So, where are these ADS tags from Fx? They are not on any downloads. This Streams Shell Extension finds other ADS so I have no reason to think that Fx has somehow managed to hide the ADS from this extension. (I have not yet tried to install the extension on Vista. It may not work there). I suppose I can grab one of my myriad of programs (off my host...easy to do with XP...Vista is one huge headache for grabbing files on the network) that find ADS and run one of them in case Streams Shell Extension is somehow missing these. Ieven changed the settings in IE8 to allow unsafe downloads an Fx3 doesn't object to my running eicar.com or opening the eicar zip files. So, evidently, this feature is not working in Fx3.

Oh, btw, Fx3 works fine today on my guest XP machine. I'm on it now. It loaded all tabs very rapidly and blazes at Mozillazine forums. It loaded a preview of a post there so fast I was amazed and also posted it and then took me to the post incredibly fast. So, I have no idea what was wrong yesterday. I shut that machine down last night and booted it up again a little while ago. Maybe Windows needed restarting for some unclear reason. I'm going to use this machine now for awhile and see if, after a few hours, it happens again or not.

edit: I shut down IE with the risky setting still in place. Just now, I started IE8 again and got a gigantic warning telling me not to surf the internet with such a risky setting. So, why is Fx not reacting to that change? I don't think it is working on Fx unless Eicar files are exempted from the ADS?

--
"The same ferocity that our founders devoted to protect the freedom and independence of the press is now appropriate for our defense of the freedom of the internet. The stakes are the same: the survival of our Republic". Al Gore, The Assault on Reason


Grail Knight

Premium
join:2003-05-31
Valhalla
kudos:6
Did that user.js spelling setting work for you?

Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:6
I haven't done it. I want the spell checker to stay turned off until I want it. I don't want to do without a spell checker entirely. So, I've been undecided about what to do.

Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:6
I took the time just now to install Avira free on Fx3 on my virtual XP machine. I left the dangerous download setting for IE. I changed the setting for browser.download.manager.scanWhenDone back to true. Avira wouldn't let me play with Eicar at all..not even the zip ones. So, I instead downloaded a couple of applications and Fx never tried to start my AV, never tried to stop me from downloading because I have those unsafe settings for IE, never warned me about anything to do with the downloads. I checked them for ADS and there is no ADS tagging. I even tried opening the file directly from the download manager (instead of going to the containing folder as I ordinarily would so I could scan it) and Fx let it open directly and this was while IE has the bad settings enabled.

So, these features are not working for me at all.

Oh, so far Fx3 on the XP virtual machine is working fine...I still have no idea what was the matter last night.
--
"The same ferocity that our founders devoted to protect the freedom and independence of the press is now appropriate for our defense of the freedom of the internet. The stakes are the same: the survival of our Republic". Al Gore, The Assault on Reason

BandHeight

join:2004-08-30

1 edit

1 recommendation

Click for full size
FF-Streams.png
Click for full size
IE7-DLDenied.png

FF-DLDenied.png
said by Mele20:

So, these features are not working for me at all.
Test 1

- OS: Win XP SP3
- Storage Filesystem: NTFS
- Policy Set To Medium (3)

I downloaded the FF 3 installation file from Mozilla using four different applications:

- IE7 SP3 - File saved as: Firefox Setup 3.0-DLIE.exe
- FF 3.0 - File saved as: Firefox Setup 3.0-DLFF.exe
- Opera 9.5 - File saved as: Firefox Setup 3.0-DLOP.exe
- GetRight 5.2d - File saved as: Firefox Setup 3.0-DLGR.exe

Results (image posted: FF-Streams.png)

- IE7 - Added ADS; execution prompts user
- FF 3.0 - Added ADS; execution prompts user
- Opera 9.5 - Did not add ADS; execution proceeds without prompt
- GetRight 5.2d - Did not add ADS; execution proceeds without prompt

Test 2
- OS: Win XP SP3
- Storage Filesystem: NTFS
- General Policy Set To Medium (3) But FF Download Site Added To Restricted Zone (High - Zone 4)

I downloaded the FF 3 installation file from Mozilla using two different applications:

- IE7 SP3 - File saved as: N/A
- FF 3.0 - File saved as: Firefox Setup 3.0-DLFF-Restricted.exe

Results (images posted - IE7-DLDenied.png and FF-DLDenied.png):

- IE7 SP3 - Clicking the download link immediately alerts user with messsage box, "Your current security settings do not allow this file to be downloaded".

- FF 3.0 - Clicking the download link presents "Save As ..." dialog and then launches the FF DL Manager after clicking "Save". However, the FF DL Manager halts the download, and the DL Manager listing shows the file name with the following message: "This download has been blocked by your Security Zone Policy -- mozilla.org".

By the way, the file and partial file are left on the file system; file size of each is zero bytes (that probably needs to be cleaned up automatically?).

Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:6
I don't understand your point. YOU had to add the ADS to get Fx to react. Soo....?

Plus, I thought Fx reacted if you had INsecure settings on IE not secure settings. Why would Fx stop you if the IE settings are secure? It should stop you only if the IE settings are insecure.
--
"The same ferocity that our founders devoted to protect the freedom and independence of the press is now appropriate for our defense of the freedom of the internet. The stakes are the same: the survival of our Republic". Al Gore, The Assault on Reason


Ctrl Alt Del
Premium
join:2002-02-18
kudos:1
said by Mele20:

I don't understand your point. YOU had to add the ADS to get Fx to react. Soo....?

Plus, I thought Fx reacted if you had INsecure settings on IE not secure settings. Why would Fx stop you if the IE settings are secure? It should stop you only if the IE settings are insecure.
Firefox 3.0 for Windows now uses the same feature that Internet Explorer uses when you download a file from the internet. Firefox tags a downloaded file which then tells Windows to show the prompt. He did not add any ADS, that was Firefox that added the ADS.
--
less talk, more music

BandHeight

join:2004-08-30

4 edits
reply to Mele20

Prompt Recieved Upon Execution of Zone 3 Tagged File DL'd with IE 7

Prompt Recieved Upon Execution of Zone 3 Tagged File DL'd with FF 3.0
said by BandHeight:

Results (image posted: FF-Streams.png)

- IE7 - Added ADS; execution prompts user
- FF 3.0 - Added ADS; execution prompts user
- Opera 9.5 - Did not add ADS; execution proceeds without prompt
- GetRight 5.2d - Did not add ADS; execution proceeds without prompt
said by Mele20:

I don't understand your point. YOU had to add the ADS to get Fx to react. Soo....?
I know that might have been a little confusing, but c'mon ... why would I have even wasted my time with the previous post if I could only achieve those results by manually adding the ADS? Of course I didn't manually add the ADS ... the applications did (or didn't) as the case may have been. For example, when I downloaded the file with FF 3.0, the tags were automatically added based on my Policy because FF 3.0 recognizes and respects the Policy I have set (it uses the aforementioned IAttachmentExecute::CheckPolicy Method to do so) whereas Opera, for example, is Policy agnostic (thus, it does not add the Zone ADS tag).

said by Mele20:

Plus, I thought Fx reacted if you had INsecure settings on IE not secure settings. Why would Fx stop you if the IE settings are secure? It should stop you only if the IE settings are insecure.
None of the applications that recognize Policy react opposite your set Policy. They honor / respect your Policy. If you want to be insecure, the applications respect that. If you want to be secure, they respect that, too. It is your choice which Policy you set (Zone 1, 2, 3 or 4) for specific activities ... so why would FF 3.0 try to do the opposite of what your Policy dictated it to do?

If you have a Policy for high security, it prompts the user or blocks the activity completely (Zone 3 or Zone 4, respectively). If the user chooses a less secure Policy (Zone 1 or 2), the prompting and blocking do not occur at all or are lessened.

I think you are fundamentally misunderstanding this topic.

EDIT:
By the way, once the downloaded file is tagged with a Zone 3 ADS per policy, FF is out of the picture. The prompt that a user gets when the file is executed is then received from the OS and it looks just like the prompt that a Zone 3 file downloaded by IE would look (see images in this post).

Of course, this does not apply for Zone 4 because no file is actually downloaded, so no ADS can be added and the file-blocked message comes immediately from the browser itself (thus the 2 different screen-shots in my previous post).

Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:6
reply to Ctrl Alt Del
Auto quote isn't working.

I understand what Bandheight said. My reply is that it is not true that Fx3 is placing ADS on downloads. It is not doing for me. Therefore, this feature does not work. Bandheight has Service Pack 3 for XP. I have SP2. Maybe Service Pack 3 is required for this to work? If so, that is another good reason to not install SP3...getting too bossy.
--
"The same ferocity that our founders devoted to protect the freedom and independence of the press is now appropriate for our defense of the freedom of the internet. The stakes are the same: the survival of our Republic". Al Gore, The Assault on Reason

BandHeight

join:2004-08-30

2 edits
Click for full size
FF 3.0 Adds Zone Tags In Win XP SP 2 Just Like In SP 3
said by Mele20:

Auto quote isn't working.
I just auto-quoted. It never ceases to amaze me how many things don't work for you.

said by Mele20:

I understand what Bandheight said.
No comment.

said by Mele20:

My reply is that it is not true that Fx3 is placing ADS on downloads.
Really?

said by Mele20:

It is not doing for me.
Of course not.

Please understand saying that something is not true (which makes me what by extension?) just because it doesn't work for you is insulting to say the least. I did not fabricate the FF 3 functionality (nor did anyone else in this thread for that matter), and I did not fabricate the test results and screen-shots I posted here.

Edit:

And because I can (but shouldn't have), I tested Win XP SP2, and of course as I expected, the ADS tags were added by FF 3.0 just as they were in Win XP SP3. See image above. For the record, my SP 3 tests were on XP Pro (which I failed to mention), so the tests thus far seem to validate the same functionality in SP 2 and SP3 and Pro and Home versions. This is not surprising.


Ctrl Alt Del
Premium
join:2002-02-18
kudos:1
reply to Mele20
said by Mele20:

Auto quote isn't working.

I understand what Bandheight said. My reply is that it is not true that Fx3 is placing ADS on downloads. It is not doing for me. Therefore, this feature does not work. Bandheight has Service Pack 3 for XP. I have SP2. Maybe Service Pack 3 is required for this to work? If so, that is another good reason to not install SP3...getting too bossy.
Your settings are insane so you may have turned them off in Internet Explorer's Internet Settings. If you're worried about this feature, you can turn it off so it acts exactly like it did before.

This feature was added in SP2, so your machine already has the framework for this feature.
--
less talk, more music

Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:6
Auto quote worked the next time I tried it. Every now and then it won't work. If you had bothered to do a search you would find a number threads over the years about auto quote not working for awhile or working intermittently. I meantioned out of politeness but that was lost on you.

What "feature" was added in SP2?
--
"The same ferocity that our founders devoted to protect the freedom and independence of the press is now appropriate for our defense of the freedom of the internet. The stakes are the same: the survival of our Republic". Al Gore, The Assault on Reason

Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:6
reply to BandHeight
said by BandHeight:

If you have a Policy for high security, it prompts the user or blocks the activity completely (Zone 3 or Zone 4, respectively). If the user chooses a less secure Policy (Zone 1 or 2), the prompting and blocking do not occur at all or are lessened.

I think you are fundamentally misunderstanding this topic.

EDIT:
By the way, once the downloaded file is tagged with a Zone 3 ADS per policy, FF is out of the picture. The prompt that a user gets when the file is executed is then received from the OS and it looks just like the prompt that a Zone 3 file downloaded by IE would look (see images in this post).

Of course, this does not apply for Zone 4 because no file is actually downloaded, so no ADS can be added and the file-blocked message comes immediately from the browser itself (thus the 2 different screen-shots in my previous post).
What are these "zones"? I don't use IE but rarely. I am a Mozilla person. I used Netscape when I got my first compter, then Mozilla, then Phoenix also and then Firebird/Firefox and SeaMonkey. I remember something called local/internet/trusted/restricted tabs in IE options. I never paid much attention to them. I kept everything in the internet tab except Spyware Blaster puts stuff in the restricted tab. I used custom settings for IE privacy from the beginning ...no slider or other junk but basically I don't use IE and would rip it out if I could. The only thing I use IE for, and the only reason to keep it around (if I could get rid of it), was for Java speedtests until the beginning of this year when I finally stopped using MSJava. I still don't allow Java on Fx. I have IE for speed tests and for the few sites that still won't work in Fx. (I also keep IE on a virtual machine that runs XP Pro SP1 for my ONLY install of Flash Player. I have it installed just so I can see how awful my ISP is now that they ditched the best speed test for a crap Flash one that cost a lot less. I never have allowed Flash on Fx or Mozilla/Seamonkey).

I thought we were talking about this:

"Reset system Internet security settings - Windows

Starting in Firefox 3: When you attempt to download an executable file (e.g., an .exe or .msi file) you may see a Firefox Downloads window with one of these messages under the filename:

* Blocked: Download may contain a virus or spyware (Firefox 3 Beta 5 image)
* This download has been blocked by your Security Zone Policy (Firefox 3 RC1 image).

This issue does not occur in Firefox 2 or earlier.

Firefox 3 may block downloads of all executable files if the Internet security option, "Launching applications and unsafe files" is set to "Disabled". [18] [19] To change this setting, open Internet Options (via Control Panel or from Internet Explorer -> Tools) and click the "Security" tab. Select the "Internet" zone, click the "Custom level..." button, then find the "Launching applications and unsafe files" setting (under Miscellaneous) and select "Prompt (Recommended)" "

»kb.mozillazine.org/Unable_to_sav ··· _Windows
--
"The same ferocity that our founders devoted to protect the freedom and independence of the press is now appropriate for our defense of the freedom of the internet. The stakes are the same: the survival of our Republic". Al Gore, The Assault on Reason


Ctrl Alt Del
Premium
join:2002-02-18
kudos:1
reply to Mele20
said by Mele20:

What "feature" was added in SP2?
In Windows XP Service Pack 2, Microsoft added something called the Attachment Manager.

said by »support.microsoft.com/?kbid=8832 ··· d=883260 :

The Attachment Manager in Windows XP SP2 can help protect your computer from unsafe attachments that you might receive with an e-mail message and from unsafe files that you might save from the Internet.

If the Attachment Manager identifies an attachment that might be unsafe, the Attachment Manager prevents you from opening the file, or it warns you before you open the file.

The Attachment Manager uses the IAttachmentExecute application programming interface (API) to find the file type, to find the file association, and to determine the most appropriate action.

Microsoft Outlook Express, Microsoft Windows Messenger, Microsoft MSN Messenger, and Microsoft Internet Explorer use the Attachment Manager to handle e-mail attachments and Internet downloads.

When you save files to your hard disk from a program that uses the Attachment Manager, the Web content zone information for the file is also saved with the file. For example, if you save a compressed file (.zip) that is attached to an e-mail message to your hard disk, the Web content zone information is also saved when you save the compressed file.
More simply...

said by »smallvoid.com/article/ie-attachm ··· ger.html :

Windows XP SP2 includes a new feature called Attachment Manager, which monitors files downloaded from the Internet or received as e-mail attachments.

When a downloaded file is saved to a disk formatted with NTFS, then it will update the meta data for the file with the zone (Internet- / Restricted-zone) it was downloaded from. The meta data is saved as an Alternate Data Stream (ADS), which is a feature of NTFS where the same filename can be used to cover multiple data streams.
For example, if you use Windows XP SP2's Internet Explorer to download an executable, Internet Explorer will tag that file as potentially dangerous using Attachment Manager's IAttachmentExecute. Then when you try to run that executable, Windows will show the following dialog:



Because the Attachment Manager was added in XP SP2, when you said:

I understand what Bandheight said. My reply is that it is not true that Fx3 is placing ADS on downloads. It is not doing for me. Therefore, this feature does not work. Bandheight has Service Pack 3 for XP. I have SP2. Maybe Service Pack 3 is required for this to work? If so, that is another good reason to not install SP3...getting too bossy.
Was incorrect. Service Pack 3 is not required, Service Pack 2 is, which you already have.

Now, Firefox 2 did not use the Attachment Manager at all. If you downloaded an executable with Firefox 2, you never saw that Security Warning dialog. However, Firefox 3 does use the Attachment Manager with the default settings. When you download an executable with Firefox 3, you will get the same Security Warning dialog that IE would show.

Both websites in the quotes above show the Group Policy settings or Registry keys that control this feature.
--
less talk, more music