R0CKY
TSI Rocky
Premium,VIP
join:2005-05-19
Chatham, ON
| reply to R0CKY
Re: The Bell Disclosure!
Looks like you just got quoted shinda....
--
TSI Rocky - TekSavvy Solutions Inc. |
|
Maynard G Krebs
@teksavvy.com
| reply to R0CKY
said by R0CKY  :Arbor Ellacoya e30: Support up to 64,000 subscribers at 4 Gbps speed. Arbor Ellacoya e100: Support up to 500,000 subscribers at 20 Gbps speed. Any price tags on these? It's probably in Gartner Group reports or one of the other IT industry subscription-based analysis reports. |
|
CanadianIron
join:2006-10-08
Beverly Hills, CA
| reply to R0CKY
"The Ellacoya e100 is available now. Because it's modular, pricing depends on hardware and software options chosen. "The price per subscriber is similar to the current generation of DPI equipment, between $1 and $2 per subscriber," Sammartino says. "
»www.isp-planet.com/equipment/200···100.html |
|
mr_hexen
join:2007-08-02
Brampton, ON | dont forget that bell owns Ellacoya though, so i'm sure they got a good deal  |
|
JayMan
Whoot
Premium
join:2002-06-05
Earth
 ·TekSavvy Solutions..
| reply to R0CKY
I have to laugh at this. I live in Pembroke, we have 1 CO, no remotes and like 12,000 people living here and we got stabbed by one of Bell's Red pins.
This is laughable because hardly anyone around here can get 5mbit unless you live within blocks of the CO which is right downtown.
But as I type this I look outside and there is 8 yes 8 Cogeco contracted White Broadband vans on the street upgrading our cable so we can get highspeed here in a about a month from what I am told. Maybe Bell will come and upgrade too. |
|
Maynard G Krebs
@teksavvy.com
| reply to R0CKY
said by R0CKY :[If I were a betting man I think if anything, they took the worst numbers/areas possible to make the arguments here.... Rocky,
I think that you/CAIP should hire some consulting help from one of the big firms with inside telco network consulting experience - maybe Ernst & Young, IBM, HP, or some firm that is recommended to you in the US (where the talent pool may be a bit deeper).
You'll get a fuller understanding of what's really missing from the Bell submission, any sensitivities their network may have, and how Bell will use that against you - ie. anything you respond with may be inaccurate because Bell is still withholding data that may be relevant.
Hopefully an experienced consultant can help you out with the "If it's X then Bell will/won't have congestion; if it's Y then ..... etc...."
If the CRTC rules against Bell and Bell appeals, then the status quo will likely stay until the end of the appeal process. And Bell might do just that if you can't anticipate what the 'hidden' data might be.
And make sure that when the CRTC gives you a ruling in your favour, that there is a drop dead date (30 days??) for Bell to remove ALL throttle/DPI from your links, and that the removal is certified as having been done by the Bell CEO & chairman of the Board.
And get the CRTC to require Bell to institute a procedure whereby they notify you/CAIP at least 30 days in advance of any changes to equipment attached to, or observation of data passing through, or parameters of your circuits. |
|
Maynard G Krebs
@teksavvy.com
| reply to mr_hexen
said by mr_hexen :dont forget that bell owns Ellacoya though, so i'm sure they got a good deal Arbour Networks bought Ellacoya earlier this year. |
|
mr_hexen
join:2007-08-02
Brampton, ON
| reply to Maynard G Krebs
said by Maynard G Krebs :
And get the CRTC to require Bell to institute a procedure whereby they notify you/CAIP at least 30 days in advance of any changes to equipment attached to, or observation of data passing through, or parameters of your circuits.
this rule is already in the tarrif, Bell Canada simply ignored it anyways, lol. |
|
mr_hexen
join:2007-08-02
Brampton, ON
| reply to Maynard G Krebs
said by Maynard G Krebs :said by mr_hexen :dont forget that bell owns Ellacoya though, so i'm sure they got a good deal Arbour Networks bought Ellacoya earlier this year. my mistake, i thought i read that Bell bought them.. o well... |
|
bacon612
join:2007-10-31
Etobicoke, ON | Too early to begin asking about ADSL2 again? I think bell has room on their network for it |
|
mlerner
Premium
join:2000-11-25
Nepean, ON
 ·Rogers Hi-Speed
·TekSavvy Solutions..
·Bell Sympatico
| said by bacon612 :Too early to begin asking about ADSL2 again? I think bell has room on their network for it Oh yes, it's obvious now without a doubt they have the room but because of their media ventures and clueless management, they want to control what you surf and watch on the internet and get more dollars out of it. If they can serve up their lame ads on a throttled and capped 5 Mbps connection instead of 20 Mbps, you can bet they will try.
--
"If bullshit was money this guy would be richer that Bill Gates." - quote by olebiker on Mirko Bibic |
|
chronoss2008
Premium
join:2008-03-29
·TekSavvy Solutions..
·Bell Sympatico
4 edits | reply to R0CKY
here is how you tell
Show figures for your 10 hr throttle
Then show figures when not throttled
(use the fact that i am basically ONLY usng my net now during the unthrottled time thus defeating traffic shaping in a sense
Data like that would either prove or disprove the theory and as i get max speeds i do not see the issue and when you take a weekend where everyone else does like i do , it proves logically without need of network knowledge that they are lying about something.
--------------------------------
If ontario had a class action lawsuit that asked for a injunction say bell loses and appeals, that would in effect lift the throttling while the appeal and perhaps even class action were going , it would allow all sides to gather data on "unthrottled use".
Even a full month or two would be a case or not for or against.
---------------
P.S. I havent got less due to throtlling i have merely shifted and scheduled my use of the net.
I am sure many thousands have "got this idea down"
so the throttle is in effect ONLY now FOR sympatico users, and those wishing to use or NEEDING to use during shape times.
---------------------
ALso after you see one red marker do you place another?
this is why peterborough has one
the fact is if every person put a marker there it woud look like a bloody mess, there for the map as sent is skwed by the fact they are shaping me in an area with one red marker the same as 50 in toronto.
WHY looks better for bell to show that hey see not so bad over there. CAIP needs the CRTC to know that i myself did not place a marker cause i already saw one on peterborough as an example.
ALSO the downloadhelper addon for firefox defeats the traffic shape, tested at youtube at 500Kbytes/sec.
While i am getitng tv that isn't on dvdr anymore that shows you that what i said about firefox addons can and will slap the system and that in fact you tube is far more worse place for p2p activity. |
|
Omr
join:2004-01-10
M1S-1B3
1 edit | reply to R0CKY
Just surprised they considered this Confidential Trade Secrets". I guess the only secret they wanted hidden is that they have an under-used network capacity re-branded as congested beyond repair.
Now to the data, I can say there is somewhat visible data showing that Throttling has brought down "congestion" levels, but by not much worth noting ... and for them to say that other traffic came in to replace it is a bold faced lie as Rocky's own graphs show dips in usage levels through-out throttle times.
Keep in mind to get a good before and after perspective look at April 07 Vs. April 08. Those two months are clear times of no throttle, and full throttle (March it was being rolled out still).
So a quick comparison;
April 2007 vs. April 2008
Backbone | 4.5% to 1.0%
BAS | 1.2% to 0.5%
Aggregation | 3.9% to 0.7%
DSLAM | 4.6% to 5.8%
Now I hope people can start seeing a trend , Bell in all it's excellence of being the king of cheap turned the Pyramid on it's head. The Year over Year trend is that of reduction, except for the DSLAM congestion which they want to resolve. Matter of fact it would appear that the DPI is adding on to this layer cake of "congestion" right onto the DSLAM. It is cheaper to have the local connections congested rather then the external. From 4.6% in April 07 to 5.8% in April 08.
Now for the bulk of the data found on that table ... firstly the Total Margin I would presume is useless, and of no use to anyone. Second I've grown up to know that networks are predominantly garbage in and garbage out, there is a relationship. Now this chart personally looks quite shady, especially in it's current form which is not to scale or even fabricated?
DSLAM is related to the BAS (the knee bone is connected to the thighbone), so I think it needs greater scrutiny in areas we see the DSLAM % Higher or equal in one Month compared to another, but the BAS % is lower compared to that other.
March 07(1) Vs. September 07(2)
- DSLAM 5.6%(1), 6.6%(2)
- BAS 3.1%(1), 0.4%(2)
April 07(1) Vs. August 07(2)
- DSLAM 4.6%(1), 4.6%(2)
- BAS 1.2%(1), 0.7%(2)
* Now keep in mind when looking at these data that it most definitely is not in context, Network Upgrades alone could fudge the relationship between numbers. Also key dates need to be understood ... Nov. 07 Sympatico Throttled, March 08 Everyone else is throttled, also we have to keep in mind the seasonality of the internet.
So now goes into how data was obtained, how it can be verified, and explaining key network events in a timeline. Also we have to question Bell's definition of "Congestion", and also get a respected Network Engineers POV of the numbers and get the knowledge individual to write a recommended guideline for congestion and the use of that word. |
|
bgw
@teksavvy.com
| reply to R0CKY
Initial view:
Not good. I don't see sufficient detail in the data to draw any solid conclusions. Right now their response seems to be too short and simple for the gravity of the situation.
I will have to read this in detail to really understand what is going on. |
|
Kareeser
hm?
Premium
join:2006-07-18
Hamilton, ON | reply to R0CKY
Funny... the download of this file slowed to a paltry 3 kb/s as I was downloading, hahaha... |
|
davidbrown
join:2005-05-31
Toronto, ON
·Bell Sympatico
1 edit | reply to R0CKY
The crtc has no plans to rule against bell (by default rogers and cogeco).
Theres far to much political pressure and money to have any other ruling other then for bell.
If you for a moment don't think back room dealing isn't going on when these guys have so much at stake your fooling yourself.
That being said there is still a chance that something leaks that forces the crtc to cover its own collective butt by ruling against bell.
This should give you a idea just how honest the crtc is and how much they care about us.
h**p://bigbry.wordpress.com/2008/02/08/c-r-t-c-on-the-take/ |
|
ultracat
join:2008-01-30
Toronto, ON
·TELUS
·Bell Sympatico
·TekSavvy Solutions..
| I agree with you, I'm a cynical guy. However, even the most clever, seedy backroom dealings have to be done when no one is looking. The public and media have shone a spotlight on this issue. Do you really think Bell will win? I honestly don't at this point. Even if the CRTC rules against us, this is a political issue now and the cons are a minority. Worst case scenario this is a great problem for the other parties Lib, BQ, NDP, Green to address in their platforms in the next election (e.g. buying our votes for giving us back our unfettered internet). And don't forget there could still be a civil case even after the CRTC ruling. And don't forget that significant privacy issues have come up during this whole thing and yes even the CRTC has to be in compliance with privacy laws (adjudicated by the privacy commissioner NOT the CRTC). |
|
davidbrown
join:2005-05-31
Toronto, ON
·Bell Sympatico
2 edits | reply to R0CKY
They got away when 1.2 billion was at stake so i don't see them having any problems getting away with this.
As i said though if they get caught badly enough in the public before this goes through then there is a chance.
Bell is counting on the fact that the smaller isp's don't have the dough to go against all three (or more) of them in court.
Remember its not just bell that has a stake in this but both all the other major isp's doing the same as bell. |
|
Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC | If the CRTC was on the take, Bell and other ISPs wouldn't be obligated to provide wholesale access to their networks. Bell constantly fights this and tries to have the CRTC remove the requirements, and Bell has so far lost every time. |
|
sbrook
Premium,Mod
join:2001-12-14
H0H 0H0
·Rogers Hi-Speed
Host:
Rogers
Bell Canada
| reply to davidbrown
This is definitely under public scrutiny BEFORE the decisions have been made ... that makes a huge difference.
As much as the major cablecos and Bell all throttle, the cablecos can provide technical validity to throttling as a part of the technology. BUT Bell cannot provide evidence that throttling is technically required, but simply at best mismanagement of their own networks. |
|
