davidbrown
join:2005-05-31
Toronto, ON
 ·Bell Sympatico
| reply to Guspaz
Re: The Bell Disclosure!
said by Guspaz  :If the CRTC was on the take, Bell and other ISPs wouldn't be obligated to provide wholesale access to their networks. Bell constantly fights this and tries to have the CRTC remove the requirements, and Bell has so far lost every time. The crtc was given no choice when that ruling was made as bell publicly hosed themselves.
Bell has now found its loop hole around this ruling and a likely effective means of killing off the smaller isps and thus removing the problem.
At the same time ripping off the consumers.
The real question here is can bell keep things quiet enough to get away with it or higher more idiots with big mouths.
The later bell does rather well and because of this we could get the same result when they ruled against bell for wholesale isp's. |
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davidbrown
join:2005-05-31
Toronto, ON
·Bell Sympatico
1 edit | reply to sbrook
said by sbrook :This is definitely under public scrutiny BEFORE the decisions have been made ... that makes a huge difference. As much as the major cablecos and Bell all throttle, the cablecos can provide technical validity to throttling as a part of the technology. BUT Bell cannot provide evidence that throttling is technically required, but simply at best mismanagement of their own networks. How do you know that for sure?
They have never had to since no one has ever forced them too.
They like bell have a vested interest in no letting that out and having people maybe find out that they are getting ripped off.
My better half dealt with all the above thanks to the hydrovac business she ran and no one of them isn't run by a bunch of crooks . |
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chronoss2008
Premium
join:2008-03-29
·TekSavvy Solutions..
·Bell Sympatico
| reply to Guspaz
said by Guspaz :If the CRTC was on the take, Bell and other ISPs wouldn't be obligated to provide wholesale access to their networks. Bell constantly fights this and tries to have the CRTC remove the requirements, and Bell has so far lost every time. And you htink shaping wholesalers to 95% of what they paid for isn't proof they are on the so called take?
So bell loses a few minor htings but gets what it wants in the end , will make it LOOK like there was actual regulation, when in fact its just a HAHA look at the poor people attitude, oh jimmy bring around the limo, bell gave us a lot a cash to seal this we can party now.... |
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sbrook
Premium,Mod
join:2001-12-14
H0H 0H0
 ·Rogers Hi-Speed
Host:
Rogers
Bell Canada
| reply to davidbrown
Well, fortunately a degree and experience in Computers, Broadcast Television Engineering, and Communications give me enough knowledge to know that the upstream is very limited and that P2P from just a handful of users on a cable segment can bring that segment to its knees. Moreover, a review of these forums will reveal that at least for Rogers, implementing first DOCSIS and then throttling, the number of performance related complaints has significantly decreased. |
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An Onymous
@teksavvy.com
| reply to Maynard G Krebs
>I think that you/CAIP should hire some consulting help from one of the big firms with inside telco network consulting experience - maybe Ernst & Young, IBM, HP, or some firm that is recommended to you in the US
Ask google for help. They have lots of PHD and other smart guys that know network there.
The DSLAM is the most congest part, but the numbers before the throttling and after almost show no different. The congestion dropped 2%, but that is also the same amount as short term fluctuations prior to throttling. No enough data to show trend whether or not throttling actually helped. |
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MB9999
@teksavvy.com
| reply to R0CKY
The cell loss graph is amusing. 4500 cells seems like a huge number, but each cell only carriers 48 bytes of data. So for their highest loss month they lost 216k of data or about 150 EtherNet frames.
I don't know the average data loss stats, but it's something like 99.9% and I gather 216kb of data is going to be a very tiny percentage of the total data transferred. |
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Kareeser
hm?
Premium
join:2006-07-18
Hamilton, ON
·Bell Sympatico
·TekSavvy Solutions..
1 edit | reply to davidbrown
You have lots of opinions and guesses as to how Bell and the CRTC have in the way of backroom dealings...
Let me ask you your own question in return:
said by davidbrown :
How do you know that for sure?
? |
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yabos
join:2003-02-16
Ingersoll, ON
| reply to HiVolt
said by HiVolt :The numbers... Can I be the first one to say... WTF? Congestion? Soo, 2-5% congestion, so THROTTLE THE WHOLE NETWORK. That makes lots of sense. |
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CitiLaptop
@teksavvy.com
| Their definitions of congestion are pretty low too.
They deem it "congested" if the following utilizations are exceeded:
DS-3: 61%;
OC-3: 84%; and
OC-12 and OC-48: 90%.
And they measure it at 15 minutes intervals. For a link to be considered congested, the threshold must have been exceeded at least once on 5 or more different days of a 14 consecutive day period.
Presumably this 14 day figure is a rolling window.
So, if its measured to be congested at just a couple hours in a 2 week period, its considered congested for that whole month?
And only a few percent of links actually met this ridiculously low criteria for congestion?
I agree with the first couple of posters, the CRTC has all the info it needs to make a ruling yesterday. What's the freakin' holdup here? |
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Kareeser
hm?
Premium
join:2006-07-18
Hamilton, ON
·Bell Sympatico
·TekSavvy Solutions..
| reply to yabos
I'm not sure whether 2-5% congestion means "The pipes are at an average load og 2-5%", or whether that means "2-5% of our pipes are fully utilized, and people are oversubscribed in those areas and getting substandard service"
I'm leaning more towards the latter, and 2-5% might encompass several neighbourhoods in Downtown T.O.! |
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Bellus_atm
@cia.com
| reply to R0CKY
If you look at this data and combine it with some telecom knowledge, you understand BC's major capital projects that impact xDSL services... and there are a lot of them at every level of the network... stingers to VDSL2 & Dual Gige LAG uplinks, upgraded BAS equipment, replacement of multilayer+multivendor-edge aggregation, better core capacity.
Also, for Rocky, there is still mucho ATM between your service provider GigE and the end user, although the normal MTU is great for users:
Stinger/Anymedia/Subtended DSLAM shelves: most of these use OC-3 to link up to their control units at the CO.
Al-Lu 73xx ASAM and Stinger FS+ controllers: The FS has OC-12 atm uplinks in many POP's. Same with the Alcatel equipment that controls DSLAM's/shelves.
Finally there is an ATM-to_GigE device connected to a Nortel 8600 edge device. In same cases, some of the above links are now Gige, but even 4 Gige uplinks for a device that controls dozens of DSLAM's isn't much.
---------------------------------------------------------
Even the VDSL2 upgrades to Stingers puzzle me... 3 48port LIM's on a stinger with 2 Gige uplinks. Even with multicast for the IPTV traffic, that doesn't really seem to make sense. But that is where things are going.
I really think the smart thing would be to replace their POP/CO to DSLAM point-to-point links with some sort of GPON 2.488D/1.24U or 10GEPON feeding 24/48/72port micro dslam's every couple blocks. |
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TakeTheFifth
join:2004-04-20
Anjou, QC
| reply to R0CKY
said by R0CKY :Definitely an interesting table... no doubt! What I'd like to know is how/where they measure congestion at the dslam. 5.2% of the links are congested. Which ones ?
Phil |
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Maynard G Krebs
@teksavvy.com
| reply to sbrook
said by sbrook :This is definitely under public scrutiny BEFORE the decisions have been made ... that makes a huge difference. As much as the major cablecos and Bell all throttle, the cablecos can provide technical validity to throttling as a part of the technology. BUT Bell cannot provide evidence that throttling is technically required, but simply at best mismanagement of their own networks. Don't put it past Stevie-Boy Harper to abolish the CRTC when Parliament resumes. It's what the telco's and cableco's want. |
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Maynard G Krebs
@teksavvy.com
| reply to R0CKY
said by R0CKY :said by Mantiz :From Arbor's website » www.arbornetworks.com/en/ellacoy···ogy.htmlArbor Ellacoya e30: Support up to 64,000 subscribers at 4 Gbps speed. Arbor Ellacoya e100: Support up to 500,000 subscribers at 20 Gbps speed. Any price tags on these? E30-64-ac (A/C Power for 64K with 64K subscriber license subscriber) $61,400
E30-64-dc (DC Power for 64K with 64K Subscriber license Subscriber) $61,300
Availabilty 2 weeks
Expect the e100 to be more costly - these figures are in-line with the $1-2 per subscriber previously posted in this thread. |
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Capharnaum
join:2006-06-19
Montreal, QC
| reply to sbrook
said by sbrook :Well, fortunately a degree and experience in Computers, Broadcast Television Engineering, and Communications give me enough knowledge to know that the upstream is very limited and that P2P from just a handful of users on a cable segment can bring that segment to its knees. Moreover, a review of these forums will reveal that at least for Rogers, implementing first DOCSIS and then throttling, the number of performance related complaints has significantly decreased. Why not just throttle the upstream then? |
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Capharnaum
join:2006-06-19
Montreal, QC
| reply to TakeTheFifth
said by TakeTheFifth :What I'd like to know is how/where they measure congestion at the dslam. 5.2% of the links are congested. Which ones ? Phil Remember that criteria for a congestion isn't that there's an overload. It's just that their "limit" (which isn't 100%) was passed four times out of 1344 checks within a two week span (if I understand the documents correctly). Then that dslam is labeled as "congestioned". It doesn't mean that the dslam was overloaded at any time during the month.
It's pretty shady. |
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DJMASACRE
join:2008-05-27
Nepean, ON
·TekSavvy Solutions..
·Bell Sympatico
| reply to R0CKY
I think i made tables like that in grade 5 math class....
looks sorta like a periodic table..
boxes with percentages... ok .. so what...
can we see actual logs of hardware, congestion, real loss figures...
them taking their own figures ( real or made up ) and just making a nice table for us doesnt give us any real truth.. its still what they want us to see after they gather what they think is relevant...
thats still not any real data to analyze..
nice try ..
in a court room, this evidence should/would just be discarded...
like finding any gun you can and display it for evidence, and say,.. see.. thats the gun ...
i dunno...
that looks like crap to me.. :P |
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jfmezei
Premium
join:2007-01-03
Beaconsfield, QC | >In a court room, this evidence should/would just be discarded...
only if the opposing lawyers show that these numbers are worthless. If nobody questions (legitimately and logically) these numbers, the judge will accept those as facts. |
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heavyduty
join:2008-03-26
Brampton, ON
·Primus Telecommuni..
| reply to Bellus_atm
said by Bellus_atm :
I really think the smart thing would be to replace their POP/CO to DSLAM point-to-point links with some sort of GPON 2.488D/1.24U or 10GEPON feeding 24/48/72port micro dslam's every couple blocks.
Yeah, it seems there is strong need to push RDSLAMs if twisted-pair last-mile is to be used, well last 1k-2k feet is more or less the target reach.
GPON is certainly a reasonable solution. Verizon is using it (along with BPON). But somehow I suspect even with GPON, Bell would still be very stingy with bandwidth. I just don't think they have the cahones to put out 10/2, 20/5, 20/20 and 50/20 mbps services (with particular emphasis on those upstream rates).
BTW, I like the 2.488D/1.244U (2:1) ratio i like very much  |
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davidbrown
join:2005-05-31
Toronto, ON
·Bell Sympatico
1 edit | reply to Kareeser
said by Kareeser :You have lots of opinions and guesses as to how Bell and the CRTC have in the way of backroom dealings... Let me ask you your own question in return: said by davidbrown :
How do you know that for sure?
? Simple the crtc passed behavior has been to the point of being totally illegal but they have repeatably done it.
I seriously doubt they are going to change and see the light just on this issue or for us.
Can i know for sure..no..but its a bet any gambler would take in a min.
Add to this bell own dishonesty and backroom dealings and i sure rocky has his own supisions.
I do though have faith in bell ability to mess things up so all hope isn't gone. |
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