Re: The Bell Disclosure! in TekSavvy

Re: The Bell Disclosure! in TekSavvy http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r20690221 en Fri, 04 Dec 2009 22:55:44 EDT Fri, 04 Dec 2009 22:55:44 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20769838 anon : Oh, and you guys know that Google and Skype got pissed at bell for throttling, right?

If you haven't herd...
»www.cbc.ca/technology/story/2008···rtc.html

I mean, when Google gets angry...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20769838 Thu, 10 Jul 2008 12:50:49 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20769828 anon : I totally agree with you Wait n see! 100%]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20769828 Thu, 10 Jul 2008 12:48:46 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20768903 koreyb :

said by Liam12360 :

OMG! Look at that, Just a note, they started the throttling on Nov-07 and the traffic before the throttle was LESS!

I am most-def switching to TekSavvy when this crap is fixed for good. :mad:

I could believe that, at least on uplinks cause November was exactly the time when my voip started acting up!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20768903 Thu, 10 Jul 2008 09:34:18 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20768148 anon : OMG! Look at that, Just a note, they started the throttling on Nov-07 and the traffic before the throttle was LESS!

I am most-def switching to TekSavvy when this crap is fixed for good. :mad:]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20768148 Thu, 10 Jul 2008 02:20:22 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20724991 R0CKY : Agreed!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20724991 Tue, 01 Jul 2008 09:16:00 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20724942 anon : I wish there was a way the people could get involved and show their support for and with you, aside from writting to the CRTC as you mentioned.

This fight isn't just about business models, it a fight to be saved from such future changes Bell will likely impose down the road. This is only their first step...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20724942 Tue, 01 Jul 2008 08:57:58 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20724901 R0CKY : You can rest on knowing we're considering all angles at the end of the day, but we need this one to make sure it makes the battle flow more easily. What Bell did is for sure wrong but as with all bullies, we need to make sure we have all our ducks in a row to force them to play nice in the future.

This is about guaranteeing fair play from all those who've been granted monopoly rights in the past. Monopolies were given to ensure all geographies were served the same way, but what seems to have been forgotten by some of these same monopolies is their space was given to them with conditions, not earned... If they're going to abuse what was handed to them, then either they should have their rights to this space removed or have a much tighter leash put on! In either case, we the people gave them this monopoly, so we the people, should be treated with more respect.... plain and simple!
--
TSI Rocky - TekSavvy Solutions Inc.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20724901 Tue, 01 Jul 2008 08:40:14 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20721269 bgw : TGuy: Brilliant article. Gets right down to the core of the issues.

Bell doesn't have a leg to stand on. I hope Rocky sees this one and leverages it to our advantage.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20721269 Mon, 30 Jun 2008 14:42:03 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20719406 anon :

said by chronoss2008

:

and that teachers union buyout a BCE is going to get a crap more debt...

They want Bell for 53 BILLION Dollars, do you honestly think another Million will make a difference?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20719406 Mon, 30 Jun 2008 07:14:53 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20719231 chronoss2008 : Somehow i think that civil action in quebec is looking real easy to win about now.....

More information that comes like that the more easier it will be to win and guaranteed if they do your going to see loads a other provinces that have class action ability roll out the i want some , and that teachers union buyout a BCE is going to get a crap more debt...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20719231 Mon, 30 Jun 2008 03:48:00 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20719057 Capharnaum :

said by TGuy

:

Just found an interesting article on arstechnica about bell.

»arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20···ved.html

Just proves what kind of crappy incompetent company Bell truly is. And if the CRTC doesn't take a stand against Bell, it's a joke of a regulator.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20719057 Mon, 30 Jun 2008 02:00:39 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20719024 funchords : Deadly]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20719024 Mon, 30 Jun 2008 01:46:57 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20718696 anon : If CAIP wins this CRTC case, I pray CAIP/Teksavvy sues afterwards on behalf of all their customers.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20718696 Sun, 29 Jun 2008 23:38:25 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20718634 Angelo_ : awesome link should be included =p in the crtc letter :)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20718634 Sun, 29 Jun 2008 23:20:56 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20718620 anon : EXCELLENT find TGuy, I will pass this along to other news links.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20718620 Sun, 29 Jun 2008 23:17:54 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20718559 TGuy : Just found an interesting article on arstechnica about bell.

»arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20···ved.html]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20718559 Sun, 29 Jun 2008 23:04:00 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20717936 anon : Perhaps we need to do the following:

a) Contact Marketing, etc. @ Cisco to tell them of our displeasure of abusing a regulatory body's public participation process with FUD.

b) Recommend something other than Linksys equipment for running Tomato. Tons of other boards should be able to work with it. The underlying tech is made by Broadcom, so the loss would purely be Cisco's. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20717936 Sun, 29 Jun 2008 20:55:44 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20712336 Capharnaum :

said by funchords

:

Note that hitting a congested link doesn't mean that the packet will be dropped or delayed. It just means that some percentage of packets arriving there will be. It depends on how congested the link is, and that data is not provided.

Note: I've never worked at an ISP. Please check my work.

First, a link is deemed congested when it checks congested approximatly 0.30% of the time. That's a bit less than 5 minutes of "congestion" per day. Also, a link is deemed congested when it hits a % of fullness which is lower than 100% (from 60% to 90% capacity). Thus, even if a link shows "congestion", it may not be at full capacity and may still be able to provide full speed to everyone.

Now, the % in the graphics are the percentage of a given link (dslam or bas or backbone) that hit the criteria above (ie: they hit 60% to 90% of their capacity during 5 minutes of a day). However, it's not a "chance" to hit a congested link, as the congested DSLAMS may not be congested at the same time or on the regions BAS. Also, the chance of hitting a congested link at any level can only happen when there is congestion, which can happen as little as less than 5 minutes a day (to be represented in the chart).

All that is kinda moot though since many of the levels in the chart don't even apply to independant ISPs.

Anyway, unless Bell provides better numbers (like times when congestions happened, % of capacity used, etc), the numbers provided do not prove congestion at all.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20712336 Sat, 28 Jun 2008 11:25:07 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20712267 anon : I'm not sure if this url was shown here, so here goes:

»www.zeropaid.com/news/9592/Bell+···Cases%21

It's interesting to note that Bell chose one of the most populated areas in Canada to try and prove that they are congested. what's more interesting is how Bell tries to sell these statistics as proof that they need to throttle everyone who uses their networks:]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20712267 Sat, 28 Jun 2008 11:01:42 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20711566 anon : Not quite, you need to take each number and multiply it by the % figure of uncongested network for the next step then divide it by 100. The congestion figure will be multiplicative not additive.

Ta.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20711566 Sat, 28 Jun 2008 04:10:06 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20708865 funchords : The DSLAM line of the chart in Document 1 and the graph on Page 13 in Document 2 shows the problem: the network Capacity is not being grown according to demands, and throttling hasn't fixed that at all.

Consumer demand for bandwidth has been growing at a rate of 37% to 40% a year, according to Cisco. This means that every 25 months or so, both the growth of consumer demand and the capacity to meet it should double. The chart on page 12 reflects this pretty well -- Bell's consumers are typical.

But then the chart on page 13 shows that DSLAM capacity improvements took about 5 years (instead of 2.1) to double! That, my friends, is called "falling behind."

Note the DSLAM line in the chart back in Document 1 -- throttling hasn't helped the DSLAM much at all. That's because, again, they're not upgrading fast enough. They're behind.

Bell states that they're spending millions on upgrades, but they're not increasing capacity fast enough. Upgrading the network too slowly and not upgrading the network at all has the same type of effect -- just to a worse degree.

Back to document 1, look at the Backbone line. Now look at the Backbone lines on Page 12 and 13. That's what good network management should look like.

My conclusions are

We're not here to confirm that decreasing P2P traffic helps cure congestion -- decreasing ANY traffic does, not just P2P. The question under test isn't whether throttling works. The question was whether Bell had to resort to it because of unusually high growth that make capacity increases inappropriate.

There is no evidence in these documents to support any unusually high growth, but Bell has provided evidence of capacity upgrades that are not responding to their own growth patterns that match the historical and Internet-wide trends.

- that the Internet has not recently had any explosion of bandwidth demand, so the methods of keeping up now should be the same as keeping up before.

- the data does not explain Bell's "surprise" action on its customers and their end users

NOTES --

Don't blame P2P: BitTorrent traffic avoids congested links. In BitTorrent networks, transfers drop congested links in favor of less-congested ones. But in order to find out if a link is congested, it tries it for 30 seconds. If there is congestion, there will be a packet drop and the BitTorrent client will stop sending on that peer connection (it has plenty of others idle connections to choose from, and will only actively send to 3-4 at any one time). So extended congestion does not mean that P2P is congesting a link for any length of time, in fact it probably means that unicast client-server transfers (which do not wander off looking for less-congested paths when there is congestion) are the transfers that turn mere moments of congestion to turn into minutes of congestion.

Disregard the "Total" line of that chart in the first document. The Total line is meaningless gibberish. The user is going to experience congestion along the way, like this:

March 2007
User (0% dropped) = 100% chance of hitting uncongested path
Congestion at DSLAM (5.6%) = 94.4% chance of hitting uncongested path
Congestion at Aggregation (5.3%) = 89.4% chance of hitting uncongested path
Congestion at BAS (3.1%) = 86.6% chance of hitting uncongested path
Congestion at Backbone (3.0%) = 81.9% chance of hitting uncongested path
Chance of hitting a congested link in this network = 100% - 81.9% = 18.1%

So the Total line should look like this:
Total 18.14% 13.50% 9.11% 7.70% 7.71% 8.83% 10.48% 11.89% 12.17% 8.41% 10.50% 12.89% 10.42% 7.86% 6.43%

Note that hitting a congested link doesn't mean that the packet will be dropped or delayed. It just means that some percentage of packets arriving there will be. It depends on how congested the link is, and that data is not provided.

Note: I've never worked at an ISP. Please check my work.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
HTTP is the new Bandwidth Hog...
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20708865 Fri, 27 Jun 2008 16:12:53 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20704158 Candoo3 :

said by cisco morons :

My comments:

You know what I find interesting. Cisco is all for the throttle, yet at the same time is profiting from all of you who buy their linksys G or GL routers to by-pass the throttle.

Wow, maybe Bell can get Ellcoya to make a submission in their favour also.

What all of these dummies have done, is to put on their blinders, and are trying to pull the blinders over the public's eyes. Over and over you read and hear the words "market forces" and "competition". They just don't get it, or don't want to get it. They need to get their head outa their ass. CS aside, they have brought the indies DOWN to the same playing field as themselves, when it comes to the actual service. That is NOT competition, and where the hell do the "market forces" have meaning, when everyone is being forced to play the game by Bell's rules. Everyone is being FORCED to be the same. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20704158 Thu, 26 Jun 2008 18:12:29 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20703960 Guspaz : Considering that WE made the firmware for Linksys routers that evade throttling, I hardly think that Linksys is trying intentionally to profit from this. They just made a very flexible piece of consumer hardware, and we took advantage of that.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20703960 Thu, 26 Jun 2008 17:28:14 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20701932 anon :

said by cisco morons :

Cisco is all for the throttle, yet at the same time is profiting from all of you who buy their linksys G or GL routers to by-pass the throttle.

Specifically which model numbers?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20701932 Thu, 26 Jun 2008 10:58:21 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20701868 Kareeser :

said by cisco morons :

You know what I find interesting. Cisco is all for the throttle, yet at the same time is profiting from all of you who buy their linksys G or GL routers to by-pass the throttle.

Does anyone else see Cisco profiting and playing both sides?

No, I don't see that at all.

The G and GL routers are loaded with traditional Linksys firmware which by default do not bypass the throttling.

The replacement of the firmware voids the warranty (probably) and is of a THIRD-PARTY, which, need I remind you, was free.

Furthermore, Cisco was making these routers long before the throttling began.

Thirdly, the amount of people using Tomato 1.19-mp (and its unstable variants) is probably only in the tens, maybe hundreds. That amounts to much too little in terms of profit (minus shipping from warehouses, production costs, and other assorted overhead) to even keep the router in production. Clearly, there is another reason (see below), not to mention that you don't even need a WRT54GL to bypass the throttle, since you can achieve the same thing natively with Windows XP (I will admit, of course, that it's much easier to just use the WRT54GL).

Lastly, Cisco keeps these routers in production not because they want the throttle bypass to continue, but because there is such a demand for them by enthusiasts who like to install third-party firmwares.

So, I say, Cisco may have elements that you can use to accuse them of serving both sides of the "war" effort, but I wouldn't go as far as to accuse them of purposely doing so.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20701868 Thu, 26 Jun 2008 10:45:13 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20701715 Radar73 : I liked this comment among others in their filing:

How is it that Bell has constructed a network so lacking in capacity that a mere 5% of the subscribers, who are simply using their Internet service as advertised, can congest the network so seriously that it requires traffic shaping?

I'm sure the CRTC will overlook this simple argument when they decide Bell can continue the throttle (I know I'm a pessimist).]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20701715 Thu, 26 Jun 2008 10:16:01 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20701707 anon : Yeah there are a couple of submissions there i never noticed till i read that p2pnet.net article.

The CRTC seems to put stuff up randomly a couple of weeks after they receive a filing, then back dates the web site to when they were in receipt of it.

So a few of these I never even saw.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20701707 Thu, 26 Jun 2008 10:14:22 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20701695 mlerner :

said by two timers :

I will make it part of my submission to the CRTC on how they are playing both ends.

Also I made a mistake in the URL above, the Cisco filing is here:
»www.crtc.gc.ca/PartVII/eng/2008/···5153.htm

Thanks for the link. Interesting, Skype has submitted comments as well!
--
"If bullshit was money this guy would be richer that Bill Gates." - quote by olebiker on Mirko Bibic]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20701695 Thu, 26 Jun 2008 10:10:04 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20701675 anon : I will make it part of my submission to the CRTC on how they are playing both ends.

Also I made a mistake in the URL above, the Cisco filing is here:
»www.crtc.gc.ca/PartVII/eng/2008/···5153.htm]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20701675 Thu, 26 Jun 2008 10:05:10 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20701661 mlerner :

said by cisco morons :

Does anyone else see Cisco profiting and playing both sides?

Of course they are, they now have a huge hold on consumer and businesses as well as ISPs so they have a huge advantage in that they serve all those markets with a strong brand. It's a smart business plan, unfortunately I don't think it's right that they are playing in this field. The CRTC should not even be accepting comments by these equipment manufacturers.
--
"If bullshit was money this guy would be richer that Bill Gates." - quote by olebiker on Mirko Bibic]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20701661 Thu, 26 Jun 2008 10:00:37 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20701636 anon : N/M... found it. Eyeballs don't work till the 3rd cup of coffee.

»www.crtc.gc.ca/public/partvii/20···0282.PDF]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20701636 Thu, 26 Jun 2008 09:53:38 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20701621 anon :

said by cisco morons :

“Bell, on the other hand, has found support in the form of a filing by network equipment maker Cisco Systems Inc.”

Can someone find the link to the Cisco Systems filing in support for bell? I don't see it.

TY!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20701621 Thu, 26 Jun 2008 09:51:44 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20701588 anon : »www.p2pnet.net/story/16219#comment-549968

“While the CRTC ordered some of those figures be made public, there is still too much left secret for observers to be able to come to any definitive conclusions about the level of congestion on Bell’s network, said Tom Copeland, president of the Canadian Association of Internet Providers. The figures still do not show where there is possible congestion or at what times of day.”

Interested parties, other than Bell and the association of internet providers, now have until July 3 to file submissions on the issue with the CRTC, says the story, adding:

“So far, the internet providers association has attracted support from a broad range of parties, with submissions made by the British Columbia Civil Liberties Association, the Canadian Association of Voice Over IP Providers, Quebec’s l’Union des consommateurs, Skype Communications, the University of Western Ontario, the Canadian Internet Policy and Public Interest Clinic, internet content companies TCPub Media and Kaboose Inc., and service providers Wireless Nomad and Primus Telecommunications Canada Inc.

“Bell, on the other hand, has found support in the form of a filing by network equipment maker Cisco Systems Inc.”
=======

My comments:

You know what I find interesting. Cisco is all for the throttle, yet at the same time is profiting from all of you who buy their linksys G or GL routers to by-pass the throttle.

Does anyone else see Cisco profiting and playing both sides?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20701588 Thu, 26 Jun 2008 09:43:01 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20699703 Capharnaum :

said by DSL_Ricer

:

If you were trying to call 911 on a voip phone during that 0.37% of the time, would you be OK with the congestion?

Congestion doesn't mean your VOIP 911 call wouldn't go through. It means that congested dslams get to "critical" levels, but it doesn't mean that it is overloaded and wouldn't process your call. Also, it is unclear whether congestion would just slow down the links or whether it would lengthen response time and by how much.

There isn't any data that lets us think the "congestion" would affect anyone for any particular length of time.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20699703 Wed, 25 Jun 2008 21:15:33 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20699562 anon : umm .. so now what ..

CRTC will just take this "disclosure" and go .. mmhmm .. interesting ... this looks like something .. ok, so we got some proof, now we'll make our decision .

how can the CRTC actually see this as valid ?

Whats the next move ?

is anyone going to say anything directly to CRTC about this? ... are we just going to let this pass ?

if we thought their data was going to be weak, they sure didn't surprise us again, with this ..

.......... sooo ...........

i dont know what we are doing now, just waiting for September ?

Surely the public and CAIP has provided tons more proof that this is affected the end user, and has terrible effects on us all ... rather than BELL showing a nice table .

this just makes me sick .. a professional business playing games... with us, and treating us as an average lay person . please bibic. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20699562 Wed, 25 Jun 2008 20:44:38 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20698350 Kareeser : I wouldn't be surprised. The more stops, the greater the risk...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20698350 Wed, 25 Jun 2008 16:48:52 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20697875 anon : Interesting statement at »www.internetevolution.com/docume···umber=13

"Both the Arbor/Ellacoya E30 and Ipoque PRX-5G devices showed excellent performance and very good P2P detection and regulation capabilities:

* The presence of each of the filter devices affected the network performance not at all, or only to a small extent. Packet loss was not observed for bidirectional rates of up to 950 Mbit/s. ....."

I wonder if the packet loss Bell has shown is a direct result of the introduction of the Ellacoya boxes.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20697875 Wed, 25 Jun 2008 15:17:00 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20697813 anon :

said by DSL_Ricer

:

Now can someone please explain to me exactly from where to where in the network diagram their DSLAM category is, and why they can't selectively target traffic on congested links?

I'm not an expert in Bell's network, so if there are any mistakes in this explanation they are mine:

In simplistic terms, a TS customer's data will traverse the following path:

a) the copper from your home to the CO (DSLAM) is speed restricted by the card in the DSLAM with provisions your service, and by the wire distance from your house to the CO. Currently Bell's DSLAM cards max out at about 7Mpbs as short distances from the CO. Typical data rates are 3-6Mbps downstream, depending on the service you purchased and the distance from the CO to your home.

2) From the DSLAM the signal goes to a concentrator (I'm using this terminology because the type of equipment used may vary) which then puts your traffic and that of other people onto a GigE type circuit (typically).

3) From there the data leaves the CO and heads to a NAP (like 151 Front St. W. in Toronto).

4) At the NAP, the data is passed over from Bell to TS's own co-located network and then onto the connections TS purchases from other providers.

I'm not 100% certain where Bell's Ellacoya boxes are physically located, but logically they could be located at either a step 2a or step 3a, and possibly even both locations to deal with upstream/downstream traffic before they hit the GigE pipes in either direction.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20697813 Wed, 25 Jun 2008 15:02:39 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20697773 Angelo_ :

said by Mr 5percent :

Correct. Bell's original data was based on one month (april I believe) and included EVERYTHING over the network; dial-up, probably cell data xfers, basic light speeds, and anything using the IP network most likely like digital phone.

This in turn lowered their "average" user B/W usage to about 10-gigs. (I believe they claimed most users use under 10-gigs per month and anyone using over 59-gigs is a 5% bandwidth hog who made the throttle necessary)

5% 5% 5% 5% 5% 5% 5% 5% 5% 5% 5% 5% 5% 5% 5% 5% 5% 5% 5%

that game... won't fly

you need to compare apple's to apple's

i think it's time to demand more info and a resubmittion of the current one from bell with full data... and the crtc must remind as we all know how well Bell listens...

these statics they released are selective and give no real information as stated in the past too much is missing.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20697773 Wed, 25 Jun 2008 14:53:45 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20697674 SmithCanada : @jfmezei_ : "... the independant ISPs won't be able to select their own IP service policies anymore, and will essentially be able to provide a service equal to Sympatico and nothing more."

What if an ISP starts using IPsec tunnels from their connection point to the customer? Do you think Bell could justify throttling all traffic just because the end-point customer doesn't want to share with Bell (who they don't have any agreement with anyway.)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20697674 Wed, 25 Jun 2008 14:35:20 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20697540 TakeTheFifth :

said by DSL_Ricer

:

Now can someone please explain to me exactly from where to where in the network diagram their DSLAM category is, and why they can't selectively target traffic on congested links?

Because these would be the links carrying their Optimax traffic ?

But seriously, do these numbers include ADSL2 dslams ?

Phil]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20697540 Wed, 25 Jun 2008 14:07:54 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20697530 CanadianIron : Selectively targeting congested links would be discriminatory. Bell is an equal opportunity throttler. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20697530 Wed, 25 Jun 2008 14:06:26 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20697528 mr_hexen :

said by DSL_Ricer

said by mr_hexen

:

I did the numbers on page 1 or 2. it's 0.37% time.

if the available time over 14 days is congested as little as 0.37% they mark the entire 14 days as congested 24/7.

riiiight.

If you were trying to call 911 on a voip phone during that 0.37% of the time, would you be OK with the congestion?

A couple month ago Teksavvy failed to account for how long it would take Bell to install another Gig-E. That was a pretty awful few weeks.
Bell's criteria for considering a link congested isn't all that bad. Their decision to solve it with DPI, however, was.

Now can someone please explain to me exactly from where to where in the network diagram their DSLAM category is, and why they can't selectively target traffic on congested links?

I dont have VOIP, and dont want it simply because I don't trust it. IMO, VOiP is too unreliable (whether due to network issues or not) to become the SOLE link for emergency services (as proved by that bc lady who moved and it all got screwed up when she called 911).

the DSLAM is the CO. This is where the 2 wires dedicated to your house get lumped into a big connection back to their offices in Toronto (the BAS, Broadband Access Server). Simply put, if a DSLAM is congested its because they oversold it. 1 port, 1 user. PERIOD.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20697528 Wed, 25 Jun 2008 14:06:15 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20697503 DSL_Ricer :

said by mr_hexen

:

I did the numbers on page 1 or 2. it's 0.37% time.

if the available time over 14 days is congested as little as 0.37% they mark the entire 14 days as congested 24/7.

riiiight.

said by davidbrown

:

Can i know for sure..no..but its a bet any gambler would take in a min.

Rare are the gamblers whom make a living off gambling per-se.
--
Cheers!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20697394 Wed, 25 Jun 2008 13:43:44 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20697129 mr_hexen :

said by NM :

This is what pisses me off: if the throttled speed is 30KB/sec that means that a fully utilized download is about 75GB/month. 99% of the users (including P2P) don't exhaust the 75GB cap. Given that, if I choose to download a large file via P2P (e.g. a distro) I want to get that frickin file as soon as possible.

If the argument of congested links proves to be valid (unlikely) I still want to pick the GB cap as opposed to slow download speed.

and bell says. Tough, you get both.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20697129 Wed, 25 Jun 2008 12:54:53 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20696835 anon : This is what pisses me off: if the throttled speed is 30KB/sec that means that a fully utilized download is about 75GB/month. 99% of the users (including P2P) don't exhaust the 75GB cap. Given that, if I choose to download a large file via P2P (e.g. a distro) I want to get that frickin file as soon as possible.

If the argument of congested links proves to be valid (unlikely) I still want to pick the GB cap as opposed to slow download speed.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20696835 Wed, 25 Jun 2008 12:06:38 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20696792 janusleretou :

said by R0CKY

said by Mantiz

:

From Arbor's website
»www.arbornetworks.com/en/ellacoy···ogy.html

Arbor Ellacoya e30:
Support up to 64,000 subscribers at 4 Gbps speed.

Arbor Ellacoya e100:
Support up to 500,000 subscribers at 20 Gbps speed.

Any price tags on these?

There is an interesting link on Arbor network website »www.internetevolution.com/docume···d=148803
A review of Ellacoya e30, and how it is inefficient when Bittorent trafic is encrypted in RC4.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20696792 Wed, 25 Jun 2008 11:59:03 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20696508 anon : Correct. Bell's original data was based on one month (april I believe) and included EVERYTHING over the network; dial-up, probably cell data xfers, basic light speeds, and anything using the IP network most likely like digital phone.

This in turn lowered their "average" user B/W usage to about 10-gigs. (I believe they claimed most users use under 10-gigs per month and anyone using over 59-gigs is a 5% bandwidth hog who made the throttle necessary)

5% 5% 5% 5% 5% 5% 5% 5% 5% 5% 5% 5% 5% 5% 5% 5% 5% 5% 5% ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20696508 Wed, 25 Jun 2008 11:00:54 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20696338 Arbalister : If I remember correctly, Bell's original submission stated that they took sample data from 20 of the most congested sites ... because they only had 20 demon boxes.

So...

The single worst point in that table is DSLAM figures for Feb 08, at 8.2% What does that really represent? 8.2% of 20 sample sites is...1.64 DSLAMs.

Rounding upwards, they're telling us that *TWO* DSLAMs wer congested in Feb.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20696338 Wed, 25 Jun 2008 10:30:19 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20696153 sbrook :

said by Capharnaum

:

]Why not just throttle the upstream then?

The current technology throttles the downstream as collateral damage to the upstream throttling. The only way to dynamically throttle the upstream is to reset the modem upstream speed which slows EVERYTHING on the upstream down and will create modem resets every time they turn it on. In other words, it's not a seamless change.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20696153 Wed, 25 Jun 2008 09:53:41 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20696070 mr_hexen :

said by Capharnaum

said by TakeTheFifth

:

What I'd like to know is how/where they measure congestion at the dslam. 5.2% of the links are congested. Which ones ?

Phil

I did the numbers on page 1 or 2. it's 0.37% time.

if the available time over 14 days is congested as little as 0.37% they mark the entire 14 days as congested 24/7.

riiiight.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20696070 Wed, 25 Jun 2008 09:38:10 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20696060 mr_hexen : and on top of this all, regardless of their reasons or their method, they have said NUMEROUS times that if they DID NOT throttle 790,000 customers would be affected in Q1, 2009!!

so, why throttle NOW if it's not an issue for another 1.5years (dating to the Oct 2007 of Sympatico throttling)????????

for video rentals. PERIOD.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20696060 Wed, 25 Jun 2008 09:36:31 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20695893 mlerner :

said by Jabus

:

If TSI needs an insider and needs to fight dirty to win....What makes them any better than Bell in the overall scheme of things?

Sometimes you have to fight fire with fire.. Bell is a overzealous telco that has been given more power than they should.
--
"If bullshit was money this guy would be richer that Bill Gates." - quote by olebiker on Mirko Bibic]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20695893 Wed, 25 Jun 2008 08:58:35 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20695716 Jabus : If TSI needs an insider and needs to fight dirty to win....What makes them any better than Bell in the overall scheme of things?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20695716 Wed, 25 Jun 2008 08:10:20 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20695669 globus999 : This is for Rocky. Yes, I know somebody already suggested it, but I will suggest it again. There is an old saying: "if you are getting into a wits fight, make sure your opponent comes armed".

Meaning:

1 - CAIP MOST DEFINITIVELY NEEDS an "insider". You are fighting blind and against the wall. You NEED the "inside" track of things to know where to punch, low, fast and dirty. This is how to win this fight.

2 - Bell's worst enemy is Bell. They are big, slow and stupid. The ONLY advante they have is the so called "security by obscurity". IF you know where to look and how to look (see point 1) they are no match. HOWEVER, as it stands today, I am not optimistic.

My two c$.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20695669 Wed, 25 Jun 2008 07:53:34 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20695503 jfmezei : >as Rocky has mention in here in the past Teksavvy is Ethernet
>not ATM. Are we to assume all resellers and wholesalers are
>ATM only?

From what I gather, Teksavvy was one of the first ones to move its AHSSPI links from ATM to ethernet. There are still many waiting to be upgraded. Sentex recently made a comment to the effect that they were still waiting to be upgraded. (this was on can.internet.highspeed if I recall correctly).

Bell is clearly not there to educate the CRTC on the real situation. They are spinning numbbers the same way they lied when speaking to the media.

Bell wants those ellacoya boxes to be allowed to stay onder the false premise of congestion, and once they are in, then their real purpose will be activated (charging customers extra to have unfettered access to certain protocols/applications, and capturing HTTP traffic and feeding it to ad agencies for extra monthly revenus (and possibly injecting ads into HTTP traffic.

Bibic's "white label reseller" may in fact be the shape of things to come since Bell,s satanic boxes will in fact dictate service levels, inject ads, collect data and sell it to Netbuad etc, and the independant ISPs won't be able to select their own IP service policies anymore, and will essentially be able to provide a service equal to Sympatico and nothing more.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20695503 Wed, 25 Jun 2008 06:06:03 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20695455 Angelo_ : what i gathered from their numbersis that the reason they throttled was because they could have saved abit more throttling instead of upgrading...

the fact that it's only conguested for a few hours (minimal), they saw it as a way to generate more revenue by throttling it and adding more users to the line... this was the same logic cable isps first had when they started offering cable internet. Quickly they discovered customers would switch if they discovered their service was not infact avertised speeds.

The means of which this is created doesn't really matter. When you get down to it. The is only why question that remains. If you knew for months (1 or more months) taht a link was going to get conguested (or is) why didn't you upgrade it.

Also the info supplied by Bell was a joke. They are hoping noone can understand the missing data which still remains... (and which the CRTC should point out).

as Rocky has mention in here in the past Teksavvy is Ethernet not ATM. Are we to assume all resellers and wholesalers are ATM only?

If not didn't Bell just not follow what the CRTC has told them to provide solid evidence there is conguested on your network?

I'm going to end my rank short as i'm tired =p]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20695455 Wed, 25 Jun 2008 05:18:28 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20695424 davidbrown :

said by Kareeser

:

You have lots of opinions and guesses as to how Bell and the CRTC have in the way of backroom dealings...

Let me ask you your own question in return:

said by davidbrown :
How do you know that for sure?

Simple the crtc passed behavior has been to the point of being totally illegal but they have repeatably done it.

I seriously doubt they are going to change and see the light just on this issue or for us.

Can i know for sure..no..but its a bet any gambler would take in a min.

Add to this bell own dishonesty and backroom dealings and i sure rocky has his own supisions.

I do though have faith in bell ability to mess things up so all hope isn't gone.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20695424 Wed, 25 Jun 2008 04:46:39 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20695328 heavyduty :

said by Bellus_atm :

I really think the smart thing would be to replace their POP/CO to DSLAM point-to-point links with some sort of GPON 2.488D/1.24U or 10GEPON feeding 24/48/72port micro dslam's every couple blocks.

Yeah, it seems there is strong need to push RDSLAMs if twisted-pair last-mile is to be used, well last 1k-2k feet is more or less the target reach.

GPON is certainly a reasonable solution. Verizon is using it (along with BPON). But somehow I suspect even with GPON, Bell would still be very stingy with bandwidth. I just don't think they have the cahones to put out 10/2, 20/5, 20/20 and 50/20 mbps services (with particular emphasis on those upstream rates).

BTW, I like the 2.488D/1.244U (2:1) ratio i like very much :)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20695328 Wed, 25 Jun 2008 03:25:33 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20695066 jfmezei : >In a court room, this evidence should/would just be discarded...

only if the opposing lawyers show that these numbers are worthless. If nobody questions (legitimately and logically) these numbers, the judge will accept those as facts.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20695066 Wed, 25 Jun 2008 00:57:00 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20695008 DJMASACRE : I think i made tables like that in grade 5 math class....

looks sorta like a periodic table..

boxes with percentages... ok .. so what...

can we see actual logs of hardware, congestion, real loss figures...

them taking their own figures ( real or made up ) and just making a nice table for us doesnt give us any real truth.. its still what they want us to see after they gather what they think is relevant...

thats still not any real data to analyze..

nice try ..

in a court room, this evidence should/would just be discarded...

like finding any gun you can and display it for evidence, and say,.. see.. thats the gun ...

i dunno...

that looks like crap to me.. :P]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20695008 Wed, 25 Jun 2008 00:42:13 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20694949 Capharnaum :

said by TakeTheFifth

:

What I'd like to know is how/where they measure congestion at the dslam. 5.2% of the links are congested. Which ones ?

Phil

Remember that criteria for a congestion isn't that there's an overload. It's just that their "limit" (which isn't 100%) was passed four times out of 1344 checks within a two week span (if I understand the documents correctly). Then that dslam is labeled as "congestioned". It doesn't mean that the dslam was overloaded at any time during the month.

It's pretty shady.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20694949 Wed, 25 Jun 2008 00:25:28 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20694925 Capharnaum :

said by sbrook

:

Well, fortunately a degree and experience in Computers, Broadcast Television Engineering, and Communications give me enough knowledge to know that the upstream is very limited and that P2P from just a handful of users on a cable segment can bring that segment to its knees. Moreover, a review of these forums will reveal that at least for Rogers, implementing first DOCSIS and then throttling, the number of performance related complaints has significantly decreased.

Why not just throttle the upstream then?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20694925 Wed, 25 Jun 2008 00:18:19 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20694861 anon :

said by R0CKY

said by Mantiz

Any price tags on these?

E30-64-ac (A/C Power for 64K with 64K subscriber license subscriber) $61,400

E30-64-dc (DC Power for 64K with 64K Subscriber license Subscriber) $61,300

Availabilty 2 weeks

Expect the e100 to be more costly - these figures are in-line with the $1-2 per subscriber previously posted in this thread. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20694861 Wed, 25 Jun 2008 00:02:39 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20694826 anon :

said by sbrook

:

This is definitely under public scrutiny BEFORE the decisions have been made ... that makes a huge difference.

As much as the major cablecos and Bell all throttle, the cablecos can provide technical validity to throttling as a part of the technology. BUT Bell cannot provide evidence that throttling is technically required, but simply at best mismanagement of their own networks.

Don't put it past Stevie-Boy Harper to abolish the CRTC when Parliament resumes. It's what the telco's and cableco's want.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20694826 Tue, 24 Jun 2008 23:53:36 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20694731 TakeTheFifth :

said by R0CKY

:

Definitely an interesting table... no doubt!

What I'd like to know is how/where they measure congestion at the dslam. 5.2% of the links are congested. Which ones ?

Phil]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20694731 Tue, 24 Jun 2008 23:35:06 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20694556 anon : If you look at this data and combine it with some telecom knowledge, you understand BC's major capital projects that impact xDSL services... and there are a lot of them at every level of the network... stingers to VDSL2 & Dual Gige LAG uplinks, upgraded BAS equipment, replacement of multilayer+multivendor-edge aggregation, better core capacity.

Also, for Rocky, there is still mucho ATM between your service provider GigE and the end user, although the normal MTU is great for users:

Stinger/Anymedia/Subtended DSLAM shelves: most of these use OC-3 to link up to their control units at the CO.

Al-Lu 73xx ASAM and Stinger FS+ controllers: The FS has OC-12 atm uplinks in many POP's. Same with the Alcatel equipment that controls DSLAM's/shelves.

Finally there is an ATM-to_GigE device connected to a Nortel 8600 edge device. In same cases, some of the above links are now Gige, but even 4 Gige uplinks for a device that controls dozens of DSLAM's isn't much.
---------------------------------------------------------
Even the VDSL2 upgrades to Stingers puzzle me... 3 48port LIM's on a stinger with 2 Gige uplinks. Even with multicast for the IPTV traffic, that doesn't really seem to make sense. But that is where things are going.

I really think the smart thing would be to replace their POP/CO to DSLAM point-to-point links with some sort of GPON 2.488D/1.24U or 10GEPON feeding 24/48/72port micro dslam's every couple blocks.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20694556 Tue, 24 Jun 2008 22:58:53 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20694218 Kareeser : I'm not sure whether 2-5% congestion means "The pipes are at an average load og 2-5%", or whether that means "2-5% of our pipes are fully utilized, and people are oversubscribed in those areas and getting substandard service"

I'm leaning more towards the latter, and 2-5% might encompass several neighbourhoods in Downtown T.O.!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20694218 Tue, 24 Jun 2008 21:53:25 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20694189 anon : Their definitions of congestion are pretty low too.

They deem it "congested" if the following utilizations are exceeded:
DS-3: 61%;
OC-3: 84%; and
OC-12 and OC-48: 90%.

And they measure it at 15 minutes intervals. For a link to be considered congested, the threshold must have been exceeded at least once on 5 or more different days of a 14 consecutive day period.

Presumably this 14 day figure is a rolling window.

So, if its measured to be congested at just a couple hours in a 2 week period, its considered congested for that whole month?

And only a few percent of links actually met this ridiculously low criteria for congestion?

I agree with the first couple of posters, the CRTC has all the info it needs to make a ruling yesterday. What's the freakin' holdup here?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20694189 Tue, 24 Jun 2008 21:48:40 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20694164 yabos :

said by HiVolt

:

The numbers... Can I be the first one to say... WTF? Congestion?

Soo, 2-5% congestion, so THROTTLE THE WHOLE NETWORK. That makes lots of sense.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20694164 Tue, 24 Jun 2008 21:44:53 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20694155 Kareeser : You have lots of opinions and guesses as to how Bell and the CRTC have in the way of backroom dealings...

Let me ask you your own question in return:

said by davidbrown :
How do you know that for sure?

?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20694155 Tue, 24 Jun 2008 21:44:03 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20694153 anon : The cell loss graph is amusing. 4500 cells seems like a huge number, but each cell only carriers 48 bytes of data. So for their highest loss month they lost 216k of data or about 150 EtherNet frames.

I don't know the average data loss stats, but it's something like 99.9% and I gather 216kb of data is going to be a very tiny percentage of the total data transferred. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20694153 Tue, 24 Jun 2008 21:43:50 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20693804 anon : >I think that you/CAIP should hire some consulting help from one of the big firms with inside telco network consulting experience - maybe Ernst & Young, IBM, HP, or some firm that is recommended to you in the US

Ask google for help. They have lots of PHD and other smart guys that know network there.

The DSLAM is the most congest part, but the numbers before the throttling and after almost show no different. The congestion dropped 2%, but that is also the same amount as short term fluctuations prior to throttling. No enough data to show trend whether or not throttling actually helped.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20693804 Tue, 24 Jun 2008 20:35:34 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20693780 sbrook : Well, fortunately a degree and experience in Computers, Broadcast Television Engineering, and Communications give me enough knowledge to know that the upstream is very limited and that P2P from just a handful of users on a cable segment can bring that segment to its knees. Moreover, a review of these forums will reveal that at least for Rogers, implementing first DOCSIS and then throttling, the number of performance related complaints has significantly decreased.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20693780 Tue, 24 Jun 2008 20:32:12 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20693760 chronoss2008 :

said by Guspaz

:

If the CRTC was on the take, Bell and other ISPs wouldn't be obligated to provide wholesale access to their networks. Bell constantly fights this and tries to have the CRTC remove the requirements, and Bell has so far lost every time.

And you htink shaping wholesalers to 95% of what they paid for isn't proof they are on the so called take?
So bell loses a few minor htings but gets what it wants in the end , will make it LOOK like there was actual regulation, when in fact its just a HAHA look at the poor people attitude, oh jimmy bring around the limo, bell gave us a lot a cash to seal this we can party now....]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20693760 Tue, 24 Jun 2008 20:28:09 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20693635 davidbrown :

said by sbrook

How do you know that for sure?

They have never had to since no one has ever forced them too.

They like bell have a vested interest in no letting that out and having people maybe find out that they are getting ripped off.

My better half dealt with all the above thanks to the hydrovac business she ran and no one of them isn't run by a bunch of crooks .]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20693635 Tue, 24 Jun 2008 20:00:45 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20693618 davidbrown :

said by Guspaz

The crtc was given no choice when that ruling was made as bell publicly hosed themselves.

Bell has now found its loop hole around this ruling and a likely effective means of killing off the smaller isps and thus removing the problem.

At the same time ripping off the consumers.

The real question here is can bell keep things quiet enough to get away with it or higher more idiots with big mouths.

The later bell does rather well and because of this we could get the same result when they ruled against bell for wholesale isp's.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20693618 Tue, 24 Jun 2008 19:56:59 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20693585 sbrook : This is definitely under public scrutiny BEFORE the decisions have been made ... that makes a huge difference.

As much as the major cablecos and Bell all throttle, the cablecos can provide technical validity to throttling as a part of the technology. BUT Bell cannot provide evidence that throttling is technically required, but simply at best mismanagement of their own networks.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20693585 Tue, 24 Jun 2008 19:50:02 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20693581 Guspaz : If the CRTC was on the take, Bell and other ISPs wouldn't be obligated to provide wholesale access to their networks. Bell constantly fights this and tries to have the CRTC remove the requirements, and Bell has so far lost every time.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20693581 Tue, 24 Jun 2008 19:48:47 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20693554 davidbrown : They got away when 1.2 billion was at stake so i don't see them having any problems getting away with this.

As i said though if they get caught badly enough in the public before this goes through then there is a chance.

Bell is counting on the fact that the smaller isp's don't have the dough to go against all three (or more) of them in court.

Remember its not just bell that has a stake in this but both all the other major isp's doing the same as bell.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20693554 Tue, 24 Jun 2008 19:44:57 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20693500 ultracat : I agree with you, I'm a cynical guy. However, even the most clever, seedy backroom dealings have to be done when no one is looking. The public and media have shone a spotlight on this issue. Do you really think Bell will win? I honestly don't at this point. Even if the CRTC rules against us, this is a political issue now and the cons are a minority. Worst case scenario this is a great problem for the other parties Lib, BQ, NDP, Green to address in their platforms in the next election (e.g. buying our votes for giving us back our unfettered internet). And don't forget there could still be a civil case even after the CRTC ruling. And don't forget that significant privacy issues have come up during this whole thing and yes even the CRTC has to be in compliance with privacy laws (adjudicated by the privacy commissioner NOT the CRTC). ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20693500 Tue, 24 Jun 2008 19:32:27 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20693431 davidbrown : The crtc has no plans to rule against bell (by default rogers and cogeco).

Theres far to much political pressure and money to have any other ruling other then for bell.

If you for a moment don't think back room dealing isn't going on when these guys have so much at stake your fooling yourself.

That being said there is still a chance that something leaks that forces the crtc to cover its own collective butt by ruling against bell.

This should give you a idea just how honest the crtc is and how much they care about us.

h**p://bigbry.wordpress.com/2008/02/08/c-r-t-c-on-the-take/]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20693431 Tue, 24 Jun 2008 19:16:20 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20693177 Kareeser : Funny... the download of this file slowed to a paltry 3 kb/s as I was downloading, hahaha...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20693177 Tue, 24 Jun 2008 18:26:49 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20692968 anon : Initial view:

Not good. I don't see sufficient detail in the data to draw any solid conclusions. Right now their response seems to be too short and simple for the gravity of the situation.

I will have to read this in detail to really understand what is going on. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20692968 Tue, 24 Jun 2008 17:43:01 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20692887 Omr : Just surprised they considered this Confidential Trade Secrets". I guess the only secret they wanted hidden is that they have an under-used network capacity re-branded as congested beyond repair.

Now to the data, I can say there is somewhat visible data showing that Throttling has brought down "congestion" levels, but by not much worth noting ... and for them to say that other traffic came in to replace it is a bold faced lie as Rocky's own graphs show dips in usage levels through-out throttle times.

Keep in mind to get a good before and after perspective look at April 07 Vs. April 08. Those two months are clear times of no throttle, and full throttle (March it was being rolled out still).

So a quick comparison;

April 2007 vs. April 2008

Backbone | 4.5% to 1.0%
BAS | 1.2% to 0.5%
Aggregation | 3.9% to 0.7%
DSLAM | 4.6% to 5.8%

Now I hope people can start seeing a trend ;) , Bell in all it's excellence of being the king of cheap turned the Pyramid on it's head. The Year over Year trend is that of reduction, except for the DSLAM congestion which they want to resolve. Matter of fact it would appear that the DPI is adding on to this layer cake of "congestion" right onto the DSLAM. It is cheaper to have the local connections congested rather then the external. From 4.6% in April 07 to 5.8% in April 08.

Now for the bulk of the data found on that table ... firstly the Total Margin I would presume is useless, and of no use to anyone. Second I've grown up to know that networks are predominantly garbage in and garbage out, there is a relationship. Now this chart personally looks quite shady, especially in it's current form which is not to scale or even fabricated?

DSLAM is related to the BAS (the knee bone is connected to the thighbone), so I think it needs greater scrutiny in areas we see the DSLAM % Higher or equal in one Month compared to another, but the BAS % is lower compared to that other.

March 07(1) Vs. September 07(2)

- DSLAM 5.6%(1), 6.6%(2)
- BAS 3.1%(1), 0.4%(2)

April 07(1) Vs. August 07(2)

- DSLAM 4.6%(1), 4.6%(2)
- BAS 1.2%(1), 0.7%(2)

* Now keep in mind when looking at these data that it most definitely is not in context, Network Upgrades alone could fudge the relationship between numbers. Also key dates need to be understood ... Nov. 07 Sympatico Throttled, March 08 Everyone else is throttled, also we have to keep in mind the seasonality of the internet.

So now goes into how data was obtained, how it can be verified, and explaining key network events in a timeline. Also we have to question Bell's definition of "Congestion", and also get a respected Network Engineers POV of the numbers and get the knowledge individual to write a recommended guideline for congestion and the use of that word.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20692887 Tue, 24 Jun 2008 17:29:19 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20692826 chronoss2008 : here is how you tell

Show figures for your 10 hr throttle

Then show figures when not throttled
(use the fact that i am basically ONLY usng my net now during the unthrottled time thus defeating traffic shaping in a sense

Data like that would either prove or disprove the theory and as i get max speeds i do not see the issue and when you take a weekend where everyone else does like i do , it proves logically without need of network knowledge that they are lying about something.
--------------------------------
If ontario had a class action lawsuit that asked for a injunction say bell loses and appeals, that would in effect lift the throttling while the appeal and perhaps even class action were going , it would allow all sides to gather data on "unthrottled use".
Even a full month or two would be a case or not for or against.
---------------
P.S. I havent got less due to throtlling i have merely shifted and scheduled my use of the net.
I am sure many thousands have "got this idea down"
so the throttle is in effect ONLY now FOR sympatico users, and those wishing to use or NEEDING to use during shape times.
---------------------
ALso after you see one red marker do you place another?
this is why peterborough has one
the fact is if every person put a marker there it woud look like a bloody mess, there for the map as sent is skwed by the fact they are shaping me in an area with one red marker the same as 50 in toronto.
WHY looks better for bell to show that hey see not so bad over there. CAIP needs the CRTC to know that i myself did not place a marker cause i already saw one on peterborough as an example.

ALSO the downloadhelper addon for firefox defeats the traffic shape, tested at youtube at 500Kbytes/sec.
While i am getitng tv that isn't on dvdr anymore that shows you that what i said about firefox addons can and will slap the system and that in fact you tube is far more worse place for p2p activity.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20692826 Tue, 24 Jun 2008 17:14:08 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20692252 mlerner :

said by bacon612

:

Too early to begin asking about ADSL2 again? I think bell has room on their network for it ;)

Oh yes, it's obvious now without a doubt they have the room but because of their media ventures and clueless management, they want to control what you surf and watch on the internet and get more dollars out of it. If they can serve up their lame ads on a throttled and capped 5 Mbps connection instead of 20 Mbps, you can bet they will try.
--
"If bullshit was money this guy would be richer that Bill Gates." - quote by olebiker on Mirko Bibic]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20692252 Tue, 24 Jun 2008 15:13:32 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20692204 bacon612 : Too early to begin asking about ADSL2 again? I think bell has room on their network for it ;)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20692204 Tue, 24 Jun 2008 15:01:49 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20692073 mr_hexen :

said by Maynard G Krebs :

said by mr_hexen

:

dont forget that bell owns Ellacoya though, so i'm sure they got a good deal ;)

Arbour Networks bought Ellacoya earlier this year.

my mistake, i thought i read that Bell bought them.. o well...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20692073 Tue, 24 Jun 2008 14:41:52 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20692062 mr_hexen :

said by Maynard G Krebs :

And get the CRTC to require Bell to institute a procedure whereby they notify you/CAIP at least 30 days in advance of any changes to equipment attached to, or observation of data passing through, or parameters of your circuits.

this rule is already in the tarrif, Bell Canada simply ignored it anyways, lol.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20692062 Tue, 24 Jun 2008 14:39:49 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20692029 anon :

said by mr_hexen

:

dont forget that bell owns Ellacoya though, so i'm sure they got a good deal ;)

Arbour Networks bought Ellacoya earlier this year.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20692029 Tue, 24 Jun 2008 14:31:51 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20691980 anon :

said by R0CKY

:

[If I were a betting man I think if anything, they took the worst numbers/areas possible to make the arguments here....

Rocky,

I think that you/CAIP should hire some consulting help from one of the big firms with inside telco network consulting experience - maybe Ernst & Young, IBM, HP, or some firm that is recommended to you in the US (where the talent pool may be a bit deeper).

You'll get a fuller understanding of what's really missing from the Bell submission, any sensitivities their network may have, and how Bell will use that against you - ie. anything you respond with may be inaccurate because Bell is still withholding data that may be relevant.

Hopefully an experienced consultant can help you out with the "If it's X then Bell will/won't have congestion; if it's Y then ..... etc...."

If the CRTC rules against Bell and Bell appeals, then the status quo will likely stay until the end of the appeal process. And Bell might do just that if you can't anticipate what the 'hidden' data might be.

And make sure that when the CRTC gives you a ruling in your favour, that there is a drop dead date (30 days??) for Bell to remove ALL throttle/DPI from your links, and that the removal is certified as having been done by the Bell CEO & chairman of the Board.

And get the CRTC to require Bell to institute a procedure whereby they notify you/CAIP at least 30 days in advance of any changes to equipment attached to, or observation of data passing through, or parameters of your circuits.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20691980 Tue, 24 Jun 2008 14:23:37 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20691964 JayMan : I have to laugh at this. I live in Pembroke, we have 1 CO, no remotes and like 12,000 people living here and we got stabbed by one of Bell's Red pins.

This is laughable because hardly anyone around here can get 5mbit unless you live within blocks of the CO which is right downtown.

But as I type this I look outside and there is 8 yes 8 Cogeco contracted White Broadband vans on the street upgrading our cable so we can get highspeed here in a about a month from what I am told. Maybe Bell will come and upgrade too.

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20691964 Tue, 24 Jun 2008 14:19:42 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20691945 mr_hexen : dont forget that bell owns Ellacoya though, so i'm sure they got a good deal ;)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20691945 Tue, 24 Jun 2008 14:15:37 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20691924 CanadianIron : "The Ellacoya e100 is available now. Because it's modular, pricing depends on hardware and software options chosen. "The price per subscriber is similar to the current generation of DPI equipment, between $1 and $2 per subscriber," Sammartino says. "

»www.isp-planet.com/equipment/200···100.html]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20691924 Tue, 24 Jun 2008 14:11:29 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20691889 anon :

said by R0CKY

:

Arbor Ellacoya e30:
Support up to 64,000 subscribers at 4 Gbps speed.

Arbor Ellacoya e100:
Support up to 500,000 subscribers at 20 Gbps speed.
Any price tags on these?

It's probably in Gartner Group reports or one of the other IT industry subscription-based analysis reports.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20691889 Tue, 24 Jun 2008 14:05:05 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20691718 R0CKY :

said by R0CKY

:

»www.p2pnet.net/story/16197

Looks like you just got quoted shinda....
--
TSI Rocky - TekSavvy Solutions Inc.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20691718 Tue, 24 Jun 2008 13:39:15 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20691619 R0CKY : »www.p2pnet.net/story/16197]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20691619 Tue, 24 Jun 2008 13:18:13 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20691607 anon : Just my thoughts (not a network guy myself):

The graphs on page 12 (Network Traffic Growth) and Network Capacity Growth (while on different scales) show that Bell (since 2003) has had sufficient network in place to manage even today's usage.

And unless I'm mis-interrupting this paragraph:

As described further in Bell Canada(CRTC)15May08-1 CAIP Part VII, Bell Canada has limited records of traffic make-up (i.e., P2P vs. non-P2P traffic) prior to exercising its traffic shaping using DPI devices. Therefore, the available data is insufficient to show a trend due to the short time period since DPI was introduced.

They are conceding that P2P isn't the problem, they really don't know what the problem is (apart from increased growth in usage), which would be better correlated against the amount of new rich media content that has sprung up on the net, in the selected time frame, (YouTube for instance).]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20691607 Tue, 24 Jun 2008 13:15:53 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20691592 R0CKY :

said by AkFubar

:

Just a thought.

The chart shows percentage (which is proportion). It may be difficult to tell what effect throttling has had from that data because actual volume figures are not shown and the number of customers taxing the network or actual changes in throughput is not shown.

Perhaps it is possible that Bell will make the argument that the reason why the percent numbers have not changed is because throttling abated an increase in the percentage or in other words, held it where it is before it got really bad?

If I were a betting man I think if anything, they took the worst numbers/areas possible to make the arguments here....
--
TSI Rocky - TekSavvy Solutions Inc.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20691592 Tue, 24 Jun 2008 13:14:24 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20691517 AkFubar : Just a thought.

The chart shows percentage (which is proportion). It may be difficult to tell what effect throttling has had from that data because actual volume figures are not shown and the number of customers taxing the network or actual changes in throughput is not shown.

Perhaps it is possible that Bell will make the argument that the reason why the percent numbers have not changed is because throttling abated an increase in the percentage or in other words, held it where it is before it got really bad?
--
"No matter where you go, there you are." - Buckaroo Banzai]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20691517 Tue, 24 Jun 2008 13:03:53 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20691216 anon : Sorry, I guess I shouldn't take a bio-break in the middle of a post. While I was out of the room, Zinc made the same observation as I did. :)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20691216 Tue, 24 Jun 2008 12:07:07 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20691203 Capharnaum :

said by mr_hexen

:

Bell does touch on this. They are saying (basically) because there is less P2P, there is more HTTP and other traffic which is why no reduction is noted.

In reality, its all BCE BS ;)

DSLAMS are the most congested by their numbers, goes back to what I said a month or so ago, they added too many users then they are capable of.

The funny thing is that if throttling only moves traffic (without reducing it), then it proves that Bell uses throttling to favorise parts of the internet while deterring others.

However, I don't see why net congestion is linked to the issue at hand. CAIP pays to get connected, it should be up to Bell to make sure the bandwitdh is available. Otherwise, they can keep overselling their network while spreading the consequences over to their competition.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20691203 Tue, 24 Jun 2008 12:05:16 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20691180 anon : The figures in the table that HiVolt posted go from to Mar 07 (pre-throttle days) to May 08.

I don't know much about networks, so I may be missing something, but if they're saying throttling is the solution to the "problem", why does their massive throttling effort show no net impact on these figures?

Also, do they provide figures for the rest of the country or did they cherry-pick Ontario & Quebec as the worst case (suggesting the real problem is not keeping up with growth)?

Does this represent all Ontario and Quebec or just the worst areas?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20691180 Tue, 24 Jun 2008 12:01:30 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20691122 mr_hexen :

said by zinc

:

More things to note...

As Bell stated, congestion of any link == bad customer experience.

Since throttling of 3rd party ISPs began, there's been no significant change in congestion at either the backbone or DSLAM level. So one can argue that the throttling is purely for competitive reasons as whether or not we're being throttled the amount of congested users is still the same.

I can only assume they've added capacity to the BAS and aggregation links since otherwise it doesn't make much sense that the throttle can remove congestion from the BAS and aggregation while not affecting congestion at the DSLAM level. (If the traffic's been stopped between the Backbone and BAS, then it's not there to flow from Aggregation->DSLAM and logically that should result in less congestion at the DSLAM level...)

Bell does touch on this. They are saying (basically) because there is less P2P, there is more HTTP and other traffic which is why no reduction is noted.

In reality, its all BCE BS ;)

DSLAMS are the most congested by their numbers, goes back to what I said a month or so ago, they added too many users then they are capable of.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20691122 Tue, 24 Jun 2008 11:50:58 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20691121 R0CKY :

said by zinc

:

I can only assume they've added capacity to the BAS and aggregation links since otherwise it doesn't make much sense that the throttle can remove congestion from the BAS and aggregation while not affecting congestion at the DSLAM level. (If the traffic's been stopped between the Backbone and BAS, then it's not there to flow from Aggregation->DSLAM and logically that should result in less congestion at the DSLAM level...)

Hehehe... that's a good point... Funny they should add stuff that is before "and" after the DPI boxes in the table... BAS and DSLAMs are definitely before the DPI devices... The only thing that would be after the DPI devices of use to that table are the Backbone and Aggregation... Aggregation we've paid for to have dedicated and backbone we've paid for to have dedicated I believe.
--
TSI Rocky - TekSavvy Solutions Inc.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20691121 Tue, 24 Jun 2008 11:50:43 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20691089 zinc : More things to note...

As Bell stated, congestion of any link == bad customer experience.

Since throttling of 3rd party ISPs began, there's been no significant change in congestion at either the backbone or DSLAM level. So one can argue that the throttling is purely for competitive reasons as whether or not we're being throttled the amount of congested users is still the same.

I can only assume they've added capacity to the BAS and aggregation links since otherwise it doesn't make much sense that the throttle can remove congestion from the BAS and aggregation while not affecting congestion at the DSLAM level. (If the traffic's been stopped between the Backbone and BAS, then it's not there to flow from Aggregation->DSLAM and logically that should result in less congestion at the DSLAM level...)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20691089 Tue, 24 Jun 2008 11:44:17 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20691027 R0CKY :

said by zinc

:

They're referring to the links in their backbone aggregation network. (i.e. the network where the BAS links terminate and connects to ISPs)

LOL.. if that's the case, we're paying to have those dedicated (AHSSPI).
--
TSI Rocky - TekSavvy Solutions Inc.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20691027 Tue, 24 Jun 2008 11:34:50 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20691022 zinc : They're referring to the links in their backbone aggregation network. (i.e. the network where the BAS links terminate and connects to ISPs)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20691022 Tue, 24 Jun 2008 11:33:34 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20690975 Spike : Just what do they mean by the Backbone percentages? Are they referring to the internet backbone uplinks? If so these wouldn't even apply to wholesaler AGAS.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20690975 Tue, 24 Jun 2008 11:24:36 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20690771 mlerner :

said by R0CKY

said by HiVolt

:

The numbers... Can I be the first one to say... WTF? Congestion?

Excellent points, you should make sure these points are relayed in CAIP's reply.
--
"If bullshit was money this guy would be richer that Bill Gates." - quote by olebiker on Mirko Bibic]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20690771 Tue, 24 Jun 2008 10:55:38 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20690726 R0CKY :

said by HiVolt

:

The numbers... Can I be the first one to say... WTF? Congestion?

Just realised... How can they put a "total" to those values... They don't relate... They all have different thresholds and mechanisms to deal with packet-loss or load. They'd need to talk on a case by case, not on a global... Some of this is on a customer to customer issue other portions are on a more aggregated level....
--
TSI Rocky - TekSavvy Solutions Inc.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20690726 Tue, 24 Jun 2008 10:47:50 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20690724 sibisties : I love the last graph that shows "cell loss" ! That's not caused by congestion, it's their DPI boxes that are dropping packets !]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20690724 Tue, 24 Jun 2008 10:47:33 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20690705 anon :

said by HiVolt

said by Mirko five_perct :

Hivolt, per the publicly filed report:

"While these numbers may seem low to the average lay person, they are significant to network traffic engineers".

k?

I read that... I don't buy it.

k?

ditto... K!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20690705 Tue, 24 Jun 2008 10:45:02 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20690695 R0CKY : Still begs the question of the ethernet side... Bell's network is being converted to it and most of their investments have gone to it.
--
TSI Rocky - TekSavvy Solutions Inc.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20690695 Tue, 24 Jun 2008 10:43:06 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20690685 HiVolt :

said by Mirko five_perct :

Hivolt, per the publicly filed report:

"While these numbers may seem low to the average lay person, they are significant to network traffic engineers".

k?

I read that... I don't buy it.

k?
--
,,!,,('-'),,!,,]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20690685 Tue, 24 Jun 2008 10:41:34 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20690676 anon :

said by HiVolt

:

The numbers... Can I be the first one to say... WTF? Congestion?

Hivolt, per the publicly filed report:

"While these numbers may seem low to the average lay person, they are significant to network traffic engineers".

k?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20690676 Tue, 24 Jun 2008 10:40:10 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20690547 mr_hexen :

said by andyb

:

Half the disclosure is still missing.Filed in confidence again.

they only disclosed the information requested by the CRTC.

what they did was take the public document that had all the confidentiality "#" and replaced those with data that was requested, which is why some appears to be kept secret.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20690547 Tue, 24 Jun 2008 10:14:48 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20690514 andyb : Half the disclosure is still missing.Filed in confidence again.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20690514 Tue, 24 Jun 2008 10:09:33 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20690487 R0CKY : All of our DSL is over AGAS, which is over Ethernet... I'm reading through this... Did I miss any of the disclosures on Ethernet Statistics? Don't think I see any...
--
TSI Rocky - TekSavvy Solutions Inc.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20690487 Tue, 24 Jun 2008 10:04:12 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20690459 Mantiz :

said by R0CKY

said by Mantiz

Any price tags on these?

I imagine the pricing is secret. Consumers would likely get upset seeing their ISP's spending money to cripple their service>]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20690459 Tue, 24 Jun 2008 09:58:57 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20690451 mr_hexen :

said by mlerner

:

After a close examination it does say percent of congested links (out of several thousand) but the critical threshold would probably be around 10%. Taking the highest percent before DPI which is 6.6%, that's still not high and if it's that bad it would not have been that expensive to upgrade those links.

not to mention the CRITERIA for getting ito that count of "congested links".

here are the utilization limits for congested as per Bell Canada:

DS-3 61%, OC-3 84%, OC-12 and OC-48 90%.

so, for one of those links to be considered "congested" and added to that low % graph the following has to occur (using DS-3 links as an example).

Over a 14 day period, utilization measurements are taken every 15 minutes. (snap shot of usage at that time). the limit of 61% must be exceeded atleast ONCE on 5 seperate days over that 14 day period.

what that means is that for the total UP TIME of a link over that 14 days (in minutes) is 20,160 minutes (24hrs x 60min x 14 days). The link must only be above 61% for a TOTAL 75 of those minutes to be considered "congested", or 0.37% of it's available time. Lets also not forget that there could be a sudden spike of usage right at that 15 minute mark and then die down, but i'll assume the entire 15 minute interval is at that level for simplicity, lol.

UHMM... OK.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20690451 Tue, 24 Jun 2008 09:56:58 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20690433 R0CKY :

said by Mantiz

Any price tags on these?
--
TSI Rocky - TekSavvy Solutions Inc.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20690433 Tue, 24 Jun 2008 09:53:44 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20690420 Mantiz : From Arbor's website
»www.arbornetworks.com/en/ellacoy···ogy.html

Arbor Ellacoya e30:
Support up to 64,000 subscribers at 4 Gbps speed.

Arbor Ellacoya e100:
Support up to 500,000 subscribers at 20 Gbps speed.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20690420 Tue, 24 Jun 2008 09:50:39 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20690401 mlerner :

said by R0CKY

:

I'm curious as to what the throughput is on those Ellacoya boxes.... Can they go more than 1,000Mbps (or even that fast)? Anyone?

I thought I read that the newer models can handle as much as 750 Mbps but Bell has also installed several in each city.
--
"If bullshit was money this guy would be richer that Bill Gates." - quote by olebiker on Mirko Bibic]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20690401 Tue, 24 Jun 2008 09:46:26 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20690373 R0CKY : I'm curious as to what the throughput is on those Ellacoya boxes.... Can they go more than 1,000Mbps (or even that fast)? Anyone?
--
TSI Rocky - TekSavvy Solutions Inc.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20690373 Tue, 24 Jun 2008 09:40:37 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20690372 anon : That was to be expected seeing most people have a 60 gigabyte a month cap.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20690372 Tue, 24 Jun 2008 09:40:12 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20690307 Topher92 : All of the percentages are lower! I'd hate to see what they would claim if the percentages actually went up slightly!

Now we need a class action lawsuit against Bell for their illegal practices. Then institute a regulatory committee to oversee the industry to ensure these kinds of things don't happen again. Then the CRTC should split Bell into two separate companies, one for the hardware, and one for the services, that way the "last mile" is out of their hands, since they've proven they can't be trusted with it. Failing that, all of the small ISPs should band together and get a large backer to bring fibre lines to Canada and watch Bell and Rogers play catch up. We've been shafted for far too long by this duopoly!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20690307 Tue, 24 Jun 2008 09:27:04 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20690295 shopkins : From what I read Bell basically shows that their current capacity is nearly 5X the current demand and they are expanding their capacity.

I understand peak vs off times, but I am not buying their arguments.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20690295 Tue, 24 Jun 2008 09:23:23 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20690294 mlerner : After a close examination it does say percent of congested links (out of several thousand) but the critical threshold would probably be around 10%. Taking the highest percent before DPI which is 6.6%, that's still not high and if it's that bad it would not have been that expensive to upgrade those links.
--
"If bullshit was money this guy would be richer that Bill Gates." - quote by olebiker on Mirko Bibic]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20690294 Tue, 24 Jun 2008 09:23:13 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20690290 PXA :

said by HiVolt

:

The numbers... Can I be the first one to say... WTF? Congestion?

This is seriously what they're basing their case on? If this doesn't prove they're being anti-competitive, I don't know what will. Though undeniable proof doesn't guarantee anything when the CRTC is involved.
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Parallax Abstraction,
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
www.pxa.ca]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20690290 Tue, 24 Jun 2008 09:22:11 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20690281 R0CKY : Definitely an interesting table... no doubt!
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TSI Rocky - TekSavvy Solutions Inc.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20690281 Tue, 24 Jun 2008 09:20:15 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20690279 Jman99 : laughable.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20690279 Tue, 24 Jun 2008 09:20:06 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20690242 mlerner :

said by HiVolt

:

The numbers... Can I be the first one to say... WTF? Congestion?

Seriously WTF?? How can the CRTC still be investigating. This is an open and shut case, there cannot be any congestion.
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"If bullshit was money this guy would be richer that Bill Gates." - quote by olebiker on Mirko Bibic]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20690242 Tue, 24 Jun 2008 09:10:51 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20690235 HiVolt : The numbers... Can I be the first one to say... WTF? Congestion?
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,,!,,('-'),,!,,

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20690235 Tue, 24 Jun 2008 09:08:49 EDT Re: The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20690221 milnoc : Igor! Prepare the lab! :D]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20690221 Tue, 24 Jun 2008 09:04:30 EDT The Bell Disclosure! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20690166 R0CKY : Here it is boys and girls... Have fun dissecting it! ;)
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TSI Rocky - TekSavvy Solutions Inc.

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]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20690166 Tue, 24 Jun 2008 08:53:24 EDT