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lvlorpheus
join:2008-02-17
Eureka Springs, AR
3 edits | reply to fiberguy
Re: Try it in a college town
So let me understand your thinking here. Students that are trying to better their selves in this country that commute to college, community college or trade school should drive 30 to 50 miles to get a book or connect to the internet at their campus. Before you respond by saying they should take care of all of that before they leave the campus think a little. Where are there kids going to go. Just stay home alone. Let someone else take care of them. Load them in the car and take them from there school work for the drive.
Have you ever though about changing your name here to string-N-canGuy. fiberguy really seems to conflict with your opinions.
A lot of bill payment and things like that you have to pay a fee to call or go in person. The business side of the internet is changing traditional ways of doing things and forcing customers to use the internet or pay a fee. So people are going to be charged a fee, or use the internet, but the internet is not a necessity.
I am guessing you would say AC is a luxury?
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HotRodFoto
Premium
join:2003-04-19
Denver, CO
| reply to fiberguy
As said above, fees are charged now for when you have to mail in things. My Verizon bill is one of them, if I don't have it directly debited from my account, which HAD to be set up online, I pay an extra fee every month. (Incidentally I have a Business connection here at home and not a residential plan)Again you mention the phone, but 911 wasn't mandated til the 80s, and before that, say 30 years before that, not everyone even had phones. Life went along just dine didn't it? And as far as pizza goes, I do all my ordering online for that cuz it's easier. Now let's throw in a unique element here, how about those folks who are handicapped? Who can't exactly take a bus or drive a car? For them would it be a utility as it allows them to carry out life in a somewhat normal manner? Hmmm now there is an interesting concept.
The Physical Infrastructure itself--here in the US, gas pipes have provided an excellent an ideal place to put and use fiber for telecommunications...check out Wilson Communications who used to be a gigantic Gas company and is now, a telecommunications company. And what about if BPL does come about and we have the utility companies actually offering services?? Another one to think about!
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Capturing the images of Colorado
»jdebordphoto.com | |
fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
| reply to lvlorpheus
Yes.. AC is a luxury, not everyone has it do they? I suppose that a few million in San Francisco alone haven't hear that, huh? And before you talk about how cool it is in SF, Mr. AR, San Francisco can and does get into the high 90's.. even breaks 100 there. Trust me, I've lived there.
Now, back to the topic. Where did I dismiss the importance of the internet? Please try to pull yourself out of emotions for a moment and look at reality.
The campus is a place of learning, right? YES. I believe that if they don't have internet, and some don't, they would do their research on the campus where they have the tools to find the information. Last time I checked, they have internet on campus in those book borrowing rooms.
Stop being a drama queen here for a moment. EVERYTHING you described in that thread, ONCE AGAIN, is to make life easier. It does not sustain life nor does having it in your home make it better for society at this time. Colleges, as your example, has often better than any internet you can get at home - maybe you didn't see me say that a few times already, maybe you were at one too many parties in college and should have paid attention?
And, I could care less if people get charged a fee to NOT use the internet to pay a bill. WHO CARES? That's a problem of the business and the end user. How do you know, with out the internet, that prices would have risen the amount of those fees absent of the internet? Keeping "fees" down is not a reason to make the internet a utility. It still doesn't make it a "necessity".. it means you still have the option to, oh my, MAIL your payment! Novel concept! Fees are not an excuse. Nice try.
Everything you just described has all been things that makes things more convenient. Look, I have Three connections to the internet in my home. I CHOOSE TO! However, I don't believe in subsidizing it, and I don't believe in mandating it. I still believe that if people want the internet and can't afford it, then they need to walk their happy butt to their local library and use it there.
Next you'll ask if I think a car is a luxury. Those with out cars use the bus don't they? Now, before you say that cities run buses, there are still cities that DON'T have bus service.
Fun.. | |
fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
| reply to HotRodFoto
The internet and the means of transport are two different things. Such as the DSL line and the carrier that takes the data to the internet.
911 was an improvement to a system that was already in place. People, before 911, just dialed a number to their local fire, police, and ambulance.
And, I disagree with you on paying a fee to mail your bill to Verizon... good try. You may be lacking a discount for using bill pay, but NO ONE is charged to mail their payment in. | |
lvlorpheus
join:2008-02-17
Eureka Springs, AR
1 edit | reply to fiberguy
said by fiberguy  :Yes.. AC is a luxury, not everyone has it do they? I suppose that a few million in San Francisco alone haven't hear that, huh? And before you talk about how cool it is in SF, Mr. AR, San Francisco can and does get into the high 90's.. even breaks 100 there. Trust me, I've lived there. Now, back to the topic. Where did I dismiss the importance of the internet? Please try to pull yourself out of emotions for a moment and look at reality. The campus is a place of learning, right? YES. I believe that if they don't have internet, and some don't, they would do their research on the campus where they have the tools to find the information. Last time I checked, they have internet on campus in those book borrowing rooms. Stop being a drama queen here for a moment. EVERYTHING you described in that thread, ONCE AGAIN, is to make life easier. It does not sustain life nor does having it in your home make it better for society at this time. Colleges, as your example, has often better than any internet you can get at home - maybe you didn't see me say that a few times already, maybe you were at one too many parties in college and should have paid attention? And, I could care less if people get charged a fee to NOT use the internet to pay a bill. WHO CARES? That's a problem of the business and the end user. How do you know, with out the internet, that prices would have risen the amount of those fees absent of the internet? Keeping "fees" down is not a reason to make the internet a utility. It still doesn't make it a "necessity".. it means you still have the option to, oh my, MAIL your payment! Novel concept! Fees are not an excuse. Nice try. Everything you just described has all been things that makes things more convenient. Look, I have Three connections to the internet in my home. I CHOOSE TO! However, I don't believe in subsidizing it, and I don't believe in mandating it. I still believe that if people want the internet and can't afford it, then they need to walk their happy butt to their local library and use it there. Next you'll ask if I think a car is a luxury. Those with out cars use the bus don't they? Now, before you say that cities run buses, there are still cities that DON'T have bus service. Fun.. I guess with all the people that die in heat waves almost every year AC was not necessary.
"It does not sustain life nor does having it in your home make it better for society at this time." Well i have to disagree. Every gallon of gas that is used driving your car or riding a bus to campus is that much more damaging to our environment/society. Reducing our dependence on foreign oil and sending billions of dollars to a region that does not always hold America and Americans in the highest regard makes it a necessity. Every fraction of a cent paid for gas that does not go to terrorists who want to destroy or way of life/society and kill us all makes it a necessity.
How long is it OK to stay stagnant with regards to the internet. As a nation do we wait until it is glaring us in the face like our oil dependence now. From this moment forward how many students in high school are not going to want to have access to the internet. Do we wait until we can not compete on the global market and then try to solve the problem. You have got to see the internet is the future.
"However, I don't believe in subsidizing it, and I don't believe in mandating it." So you are just going to deny the inevitable future and wait until it is a problem, and keep facilitating money going to people who want to destroy our way of life.
"It still doesn't make it a "necessity".. it means you still have the option to, oh my, MAIL your payment! Novel concept! Fees are not an excuse. Nice try." Great even more gas and oil used to move a letter around instead of a few clicks of a mouse. Sometimes you have to adjust your beliefs and do things that improve you society as a whole.
Its a free country. I prefer to see my money go to improving our future. You have the right to see your money continue to go to gas and oil with portions of that money going to people that want to kill us.
I think its fair to say 90%+ of every future generation is going to want access to the internet. So we just sit in the dark with our blinders on and refuse to see the future or take any action. | |
fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
| Sorry, but half the population is out on the whole "global warming" thing, and guess which side I'm on? 
Your example on AC doesn't sway me. What you described is that for some people it's important. Can you survive with out it? Yes - you can. I've gone several summers with out it. The AC issue is over... it's going no where.
Look, you and others are missing the point. Where did I say the internet isn't important to some people in love? The fact remains that many people still don't have the internet and live their life just fine. In fact, you should ask some of your friends who don't have the internet and ask them how much better their life is with out it. Some people chose not to get it for a few reasons. You'd be surprised why.. for some, it's not money or lack of providers.
You don't need to make it a "utility" in order to make it important. I can tell you're not paying attention to this debate right now. It's not if the internet is important, it's should it be a utility. You're sounding like there is some kind of an internet crisis. I've got news for you and every single person her having this debate with me. NOTHING you have described is not perfectly able to be done now, AND with as little as a 256k line. Now, before you get your panties in a bundle, I am not saying the bill gates reasoning that we only need 256. I'm saying that for Banking, for school study, booking tickets, banking.. all these "life sustaining" things that everyone's thrown at me, none of that can't be done with something as little as a 256 line.
Why do you need a 50 meg line to do college research? Why do you need one to "save $10 booking an airline ticket".. why do you need 50 meg to check your bank account or to buy or sell stock? (Other than if the site is over bloated with extra crap it doesn't need in the first place) ... seriously. What you NEED ultra fast internet for is for what? Say it alllll together... to make your life more "fun"... so you can download movies in just a couple minutes, not 20. So you can serve your P2P software over a residential line, which you shouldn't be doing anyway..
You don't need to compete with a global market "at home"... you compete with a global market at work. Are you in competition with China to pirate those Star Wars movies faster? Are trying to compete with Japan on getting blizzard patches out faster?
I'm not denying ANYTHING, as you said. What I am saying is that the internet doesn't need to be rules a utility in order to give us all those things you stated. Just because phone was made a utility didn't make phone better - in fact, ask people in the US West territory.. I can guarantee you that 11 western states would tell you horror stories regarding their "public utility".. one benefit of a public utility is that it helps to regulate costs. And, to be honest, if $42 is too much for you to pay for something that is SOOOOOOOO important, then maybe you need to rethink your own personal finances. I, for one, am not willing to pay more taxes to sustain another bureaucracy so you can hope to have a cheaper internet service. (Which won't happen under regulation)
You are more than welcome to have your green world, but I'm sorry, I as many others don't buy, your hype that global warming is real. I, as do many scientists, write this up as mother nature going through another one of her cycles as she has in the past. Al Gore invented global warming, not the internet.
"The gas is going to kill us!! The gas is going to kill us!!" Sheesh.. be real.
Your arguments are so filled with drama it's unbelievable. People like you see things as black and white.. it's either one way or another. I'll help you correct your ways.. there are more than just two sides to issues and how to resolve them. Cutting out oil isn't the answer. I'm sure you forget that it takes power to run the internet.. where are you going to get it? Windmills?  | |
lvlorpheus
join:2008-02-17
Eureka Springs, AR
1 edit | fiberguy/string-N-canGuy statements.
1.) "Ever heard of 911?"
2.) "The internet REMAINS a LUXURY. You've provided nothing that can't be done outside of the internet."
3.) "Does a car make it easier for you to get from point A to B? Sure.. people can still walk or take a bus, or ride a bike and do the same."
4.) "And, I could care less if people get charged a fee to NOT use the internet to pay a bill. WHO CARES?"
5.) "Please, name ONE thing that can ONLY be done online that is an integral part of society."
6.) "NOTHING you have described is not perfectly able to be done now, AND with as little as a 256k line."
7.) "all these "life sustaining" things that everyone's thrown at me, none of that can't be done with something as little as a 256 line."
8.) Everything you just described has all been things that makes things more convenient.
9.) "It still doesn't make it a "necessity".. it means you still have the option to, oh my, MAIL your payment! Novel concept! Fees are not an excuse."
10.) "Cutting out oil isn't the answer."
Early on you ask for "ONE thing that can ONLY" be done on the internet as you insist it is not necessity or that will improve society. Then you are given a number of examples and you change your point of view and say "NOTHING you have described is not perfectly able to be done now, AND with as little as a 256k line." Until you are going to stand behind one point or the other it is a waist of my time to try to get you to come out of the dark and take your blinders off.
I don't recall anyone saying we should all have 50 meg connections, just that the internet has become a very important and ever more necessary tool. Although it would be nice if we could get a semblance of what companies in Japan are able to provide to their customers.
I never said cutting out oil was the answer. I said "Reducing our dependence on foreign oil and sending billions of dollars to a region that does not always hold America and Americans in the highest regard makes it a necessity. Every fraction of a cent paid for gas that does not go to terrorists who want to destroy or way of life/society and kill us all makes it a necessity."
"And, to be honest, if $42 is too much for you to pay for something that is SOOOOOOOO important, then maybe you need to rethink your own personal finances." I pay $120 a month for two "unlimited" EV-DO connections from Alltel and used less than 300 GB of data last year from the two connections combined. And the #5 cell provider not once complained, contacted me, or questioned any of that usage. So with Verizon buying Alltel their 5 GB caps worry me a great deal. That less than 300 GB of data would of cost me over $70,000 under the pricing plan Verizon had last week. Now with their new plans if I use 6+ gigs a month on each account it will cost me $8640 a year for 144+ GB of data. If the #5 cell provider can do it "with no complaints" then the #2 soon to be #1 cell provider should be able to at least come up with fair caps. You have the luxary of shooting your mouth off because you get to take the internet for granted. Trade those three $42 connections you have in for three $60 5 GB Verizon EV-DO connections and lets see if you are then ready to come in out of the dark and take the blinders off. | |
fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
| So.. now that you've gone to this length.. you still haven't addressed the very issue as to WHY it needs to be a "UTILITY"..
You've steered clear of everything, spun, and side stepped the issues. You sure quoted me a lot which was un necessary. I think the fact that my message is RIGHT ABOVE YOURS is pretty clear what I said. I stand behind my statements.
The one thing you did mention was the desire of Verizon to buy Altel Regulating it as a utility isn't going to change anything about you and your "2 EV-DO" connections. I happen to have a few of them myself. Regulations mean NOTHING in that regard. Even under regulation or utility, all a provider has to do is petition and show that they need to charge more for their service, and guess what?
The ultimate reason you want the service to be a utility is that you HOPE that it will lower your bill! My So-called blinders remain on, thank you, because I am realistic in my thinking. I TOLD you in my last message it was about your hopes to keep service "cheap"..
Mobile broadband isn't ready for high usage right now. THAT is reality! When there is a supply and demand issue, it's always going to make prices stay high. The mobile broadband service (or as you like to call it, EV-DO) is not ready for prime time and everyone to just throw the kitchen sink at it. I am GLAD it still expensive. I use it all the time for business when I travel. I NEED to stay connected. I know some people want to buy it as unlimited and then start pulling the same crap they do with a residential connection and download everything they can! The reality is, is not going to happen.. not now, not at this time!
Since I use my service for business, which it still is built and modeled for, I know that if I use more, I will pay more.. and I am ok with that. I've been an early adopter in MANY technologies INCLUDING DLS when a 256 line cost $120 a month with a $300 install, $120 modem fee, and 3 year contract. How about you? I had cell phone service back in the late 80's when you paid a $29 access fee and 30 cents peak and 15 cent off peak rate. Did you? I had expensive ISDN lines in my home costing upwards to $200 a month for 144k, did you? I'll take my so called blinders off when you take off your rose colored glasses.
Further, I could care less about oil - you brought it up and I think it's not appropriate in this conversation.
.. and, keep up with the name calling, it's very adult of you. | |
lvlorpheus
join:2008-02-17
Eureka Springs, AR
4 edits | At this point I am going to have to quote someone else from the conversation.
"are you that stupid?"
"Further, I could care less about oil - you brought it up and I think it's not appropriate in this conversation." You keep saying the internet is not necessary in society today or tomorrow ... Every tool that can be used to keep money out of the hands of people that want to destroy our way of life is a necessity.
"Further, I could care less about oil -..."
If you don't care about major impacts on our society why am I even wasting my time on you. | |
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