easy 123
@videotron.ca
| reply to Bicephale
Re: From the ground up!
said by Bicephale  :See the difference!?... Where's the noise from?!!  The outside line itself probably has a minor voltage cross.
Why are you busting your butt when Bell should change the line or pair for you (good luck fighting with your ISP to get that type of service).
The occupancy is also very high.
What is strange is the very low attenuation on your upstream. I would expect it to be much higher if it was all a distance issue. Very clean upstream channel it seems (without looking at all your graphs)
I bet on a clean line (or pair change) your SNR would not go up by much more than 5-7 points points given the speed, attenuation, occupancy and path.
I claim it is a minor voltage cross on the line and you need a pair change. Once changed the occupancy will drop to high 80`s to low 90`s.
All fits the symptom of a defective outside line to me since you put so much work on the inside. |
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Bicephale
join:2005-09-24
 ·TekSavvy Solutions..
| Hi,
Well, i should confess that i did become suspicous of
my drop-line somewhat when i catched these events:
%20.GIF)
From the ground up!, Bicephale, 2009-Jun-22
%20.GIF)
From the ground up!, Bicephale, 2009-Jun-28
So, if i've read you correctly, according to what you
would normally expect, the DownStream Attenuation
level is higher than it's supposed to be and this could
result from leaky insulation, etc., causing a shunting
effect in the higher DSL band?... If so, now that i've
done all i could to ascertain that i have no issue with
HardWare i'm directly responsible for - even beyond,
actually! Euh... All that remains to be done is find a
way to get Bell to change their drop-line.
Easy!
But how do i do that?!?...
   |
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damned if i know
@videotron.ca
| said by Bicephale :... So, if i've read you correctly, according to what you would normally expect, the DownStream Attenuation level is higher than it's supposed to be and this could result from leaky insulation, etc., causing a shunting effect in the higher DSL band?... If so, now that i've done all i could to ascertain that i have no issue with HardWare i'm directly responsible for - even beyond, actually! Euh... All that remains to be done is find a way to get Bell to change their drop-line. Easy! But how do i do that?!?... I didn't say the downstream attenuation is higher than its supposed to be. The attenuation could be good.
What I'm getting at is that given your speed, path and the great values on upstream (all upstream values are nice), your occupancy on the downstream is out of whack, which is indicative of a short or voltage cross.
If it was a short some place I would expect your attenuation to be higher and your SNR jumping more, so I won't say its a short, but rather a voltage cross (This is how a couple of techs explained it to me) on the outside line.
If it was anything major, during the spring or fall (or early winter) it would likely have shown more, but it didn't.
From what I make out your SNR is jump (High and low) from around 11.5 to 7.5, or about 4 points.
If it jumps 2 points at most I would say that's stable for DSL. At 4 its problems, especially since you are 1.5 points away from disconnects and other issues. Toss in that 95% occupancy and it adds up to a voltage cross.
I couldn't begin to tell you how to get someone out to fix it, unless you purposely cause a short on your line (if you have land line try and fix it so you have static when you call).
Get a ticket open and get a date.
Bell will monitor the line from the test center, so every hour or so cause a short to make everything stop working (make a load).
When the tech is there make sure the short you made is gone, show him your stats and graphs (if you get a beginner your shit out of luck) and tell him its the line pair.
A half decent tech will test the available pairs and give you the best ones. Get the stats before he leaves and tell him if its better or not and to keep changing pairs till it's better, or if it's worse have him put the old pair back.
This is the only monkey business I can think of to get a tech out to you. Otherwise both the ISP and Bell will ignore you.
If the ISP is decent they will play along with you and record Loss of sync to submit to Bell etc.
Chances are Bell will just drop your profile and you will have to argue with your ISP to bump it up again because Bell likes their short-cut band-aids to fix things.
Or offer a case of 24 to a local tech you find or a tech from the forum if you know of one near you.
This is how it appears to me, and this is how I think you will get any response at all (and it all depends of the quality of the tech you get).
Once they sent me a phone tech who didn't do DSL and he dropped my 3-meg connection to 512 and told me my phone static was fixed and he left me like that when I said no way. heh.
So make sure you get a high-speed tech and not a phone tech.
I see nothing else. We both know the ISP won't do nothing for an SNR jumping 4 points and Bell will do everything possible to ignore you if you are not their customer since you have no one to complain to like Kevin Crull.
It's market forces.
Also, it may not be the drop line itself, but rather a bad pair from where-ever the cable comes from that feeds you to the drop line.
The guy who came here to finally fix the issue had to drive like 4 blocks away to change pairs, then he would come and hook it up in the box up on the pole that my drop was connected to.
He also shortened my loop by removing me from the loop, I think they call it drop cutting maybe? (that alone dropped my attenuation 4 points and my SNR jumped up by 4 more points). But you don't hear of many techs doing this any more at all.
The voodoo is all in the tech you get, if you play dirty a bit like above. |
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dslrocker3
join:2002-05-26
Toronto
| good luck with that.... I've been trying for the past 5 years to fix a voltage cross on my line (have been told by a few different field technicians that this problem exists on my line). Short version of a long story: they won't do anything about it. |
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damned if i know
@videotron.ca
| Exactly.
Been there done that, have the t-shirt.
But my voltage cross was bad. I either had static on the phone or no DSL.
I had around 6 or 7 tech visits.
Finally one guy took it in his own hands and fixed it (but I had to contact kevin crull).
Bell will not do anything for a 3rd party ISP, nor will they do anything for their own customers unless they bitch to high hell.
That's why I said he will have to play some dirty games and create a short on his line killing his DSL just to get a tech out and tell his ISP/tech its intermittent (when it rains and when there is lots of wind etc).
Then cross fingers and pray. |
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ex bell
@cgocable.net
| reply to damned if i know
said by damned if i know :
He also shortened my loop by removing me from the loop, I think they call it drop cutting maybe? (that alone dropped my attenuation 4 points and my SNR jumped up by 4 more points). But you don't hear of many techs doing this any more at all. He cut ahead, techs are instructed not to do this. After your terminal your F2 or F3 pair may travel quite a distance.
This shortens the loop, removes potential imbalances and metallic issues. Drop cuts are when crews replace drops wires.
The voodoo is all in the tech you get, if you play dirty a bit like above.
Good advice with Bell, fight fire with fire.
With the high turnover at Bells contractor BTS it is only luck of the draw if you get a competent tech.
Even then he has to be willing to go the extra mile (they are unionized after all) and bend the rules. There are some out there though. |
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Bicephale
join:2005-09-24
·TekSavvy Solutions..
| reply to Bicephale
Thanks everybody for your insight!
Now will someone care to explain the "voltage cross" concept?
It evokes words like "crowbar", "shunt", well that sort of things
but i could be wrong... |
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ex bell
@cgocable.net
| said by Bicephale :Now will someone care to explain the "voltage cross" concept? Just means a there is metallic to another pair. You are getting voltage conducted from one or more conductors in a cable to your pair.
Very common. Most often in your F1 or F2 pair. Can occur in multi pair drop and bsw.
Test board will catch this right away as well as dispatched tech. on a repair ticket (well should). |
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U got it
@videotron.ca
| reply to ex bell
said by ex bell :
He cut ahead, techs are instructed not to do this. After your terminal your F2 or F3 pair may travel quite a distance.
This shortens the loop, removes potential imbalances and metallic issues. Drop cuts are when crews replace drops wires.
Bingo, that's it.
ty for correcting it.
Wish I could explain it Bicephale, I look at it like a short (or stray current).
My line, on a good day, had a 14-volt voltage cross (when everything was good). 14 volts or so caused some static on the phone.
2 or 3 tech's measured the same thing and they called it a voltage cross which they say is different than a short.
On semi-good days, everything was down and non-functional (no clue what the voltage cross reading was on those days).
What you have is a little less than what I had, but no different from what I see. In my belief you will have to cause a bigger problem as stated above to get anywhere.
But I see no difference.
Must be stray current between pairs?
I couldn't tell you. I too would like to know what this mysterious voltage cross is that isn't a short.
You need a good tech (which isn't standard with bell), all I can truly say.
My fix took 6-weeks with lots of bitching and calls/emails to Crull/executive office. The first time I had this it was 2.5 to 3-month to repair.
So like I said, with you not being a Bell customer, you are going to be left to rot unless you pull some dirty tricks. |
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U got it
@videotron.ca | reply to ex bell
said by ex bell :
(well should).
Bingo again.
"should" is the operational word.
Don't get me going now... |
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ex bell
@cgocable.net | said by U got it :
Don't get me going now...
No, you've got some reading on the new Cogeco AUP to get done. |
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best guess
@videotron.ca
| reply to Bicephale
said by Bicephale :Now will someone care to explain the "voltage cross" concept? Hmm while looking up "stary current" I came across this:
"Stray Voltage"
»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stray_voltage
It *appears* to fit in with what "ex bell" said. But the article is more geared to heavy power lines.
But it should be similar, *I think*.
I never was able to find something telco-related on this.
"ex bell" should add this info to a one of the wiki sites on DSL (along with "cut-ahead").
It's something ignored a lot (both terms) and kind of hidden from the user since it's a sign on the quality, age and neglict on part of the telco's. |
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Bicephale
join:2005-09-24 |  reply to Bicephale
What do i need to monitor in order to capture positive evidence? |
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ex bell
@cgocable.net
| said by Bicephale :What do i need to monitor in order to capture positive evidence? There are current telco techs with more dsl training than I in this forum »AT&T Southeast that could probably answer that. Try a thread there. |
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great question
@videotron.ca
| reply to Bicephale
Evidence?
Unless you can measure voltage cross, or find a tech willing to check it out, or get an "honest" test center person at bell to monitor your line and communicate with you (maybe privately), no clue.
I will be very impressed if you find a way to do this (provide evidence) Bicephale.
Maybe a couple of electro-engineers/techs could help you find the answer, or some uni-prof (maybe some forum with these experts)? |
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Bicephale
join:2005-09-24 | reply to Bicephale
All right. What i meant was what parameter i should try to monitor?
• Attenuation
• Voltage
• Etc... |
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my case
@videotron.ca | In my case both SNR and occupancy were jumping.
Occupancy would jump like 2 points or more that I noticed. That value should be very stable. Yours is already high.
no other clue i can offer. |
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Bicephale
join:2005-09-24 | reply to Bicephale
Thank you everyone for your contributions!
 |
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Bicephale
join:2005-09-24
·TekSavvy Solutions..
| %20.GIF "209968 bytes")
VelCom - DSL Reports Test Results (2009-Aug-8) |
Time to immortalize test results, while i think of it...
Those are the test sites i use (1 out of 3 tries each):
http://testvitesse.videotron.ca/
http://speedtest.cogeco.net/
http://www.mountaincable.net/index.php?id=3,114,0,0,1,0
Here's a link to the page where such results are shown:
http://www.dslreports.com/testhistory/1267354/b1adc
...and this is a link to the RF Choking experiment (top):
%20.GIF)
RF Choking (on the WAN side), Bicephale, 2009-Jul-18 |
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Bicephale
join:2005-09-24
·TekSavvy Solutions..
|
The graphic for this later addition used only seven daily samples
out of seventeen... The rest of those samples differed so much i
decided to divide the whole set into seven groups. I believe the
present averaged curves are more representative of reality but i
included all samples into my accompanying SpreadSheet anyway
so that the reader gets the opportunity to play with a few more
scenarios, like i have. The graph from above corresponds to my
3rd group of sample, i tagged those the "look alikes"...
 |
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%20.GIF "35061 bytes")
