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Thank you to BroadbandReports.com »
« Law of unintended consequences  

Dogfather
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4 edits

Good but only if it applies to everyone

Don't single out Comcast. Both Cox and Time Warner Roadrunner traffic shape.

If the FCC is going to go after Comcast, they should have to go after everyone else too. And if they're going after traffic shaping, why not port blocking? It could certainly be argued that port 25 blocking for example is anticompetitive against other mail providers in violation of FCC item 4 below.

Before going after people...they need to make VERY CLEAR rules as to what they expect instead of this sort of "we know it when we see it" crap the FCC usually adheres to.

said by FCC :
New Principles Preserve and Promote the Open and Interconnected Nature of Public Internet
Washington, D.C. – The Federal Communications Commission today adopted a policy statement that outlines four principles to encourage broadband deployment and preserve and promote the open and interconnected nature of public Internet:

(1) consumers are entitled to access the lawful Internet content of their choice;
(2) consumers are entitled to run applications and services of their choice, subject to the needs of law enforcement;
(3) consumers are entitled to connect their choice of legal devices that do not harm the network; and
(4) consumers are entitled to competition among network providers, application and service providers, and content providers.

Although the Commission did not adopt rules in this regard, it will incorporate these principles into its ongoing policymaking activities. All of these principles are subject to reasonable network management.

Action by the Commission August 5, 2005, by Policy Statement (FCC 05-151).
Chairman Martin, Commissioners Martin, Abernathy, Copps, and Adelstein, with Chairman Martin issuing a statement.

That's about as vague as you can get. They need to clearly state the rules. And who gets to decide what network management is reasonable. We've seen what Comcast sees as reasonable and evidentially the FCC didn't agree.

TKJunkMail
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Re: Good but only if it applies to everyone

said by Dogfather See Profile :

Don't single out Comcast. Both Cox and Time Warner traffic shape.

If the FCC is going to go after Comcast, they should have to go after everyone else too. And if they're going after traffic shaping, why not port blocking? It could certainly be argued that port 25 blocking for example is anticompetitive against other mail providers in violation of FCC item 4 below.

Before going after people...they need to make VERY CLEAR rules as to what they expect instead of this sort of "we know it when we see it" crap the FCC usually adheres to.

That's about as vague as you can get. They need to clearly state the rules. And who gets to decide what network management is reasonable. We've seen what Comcast sees as reasonable and evidentially the FCC didn't agree.
Martin is just going after Comcast because it has fought his favorite cause as commissioner - a la carte. If the FCC is stupid enough to fine Comcast, they will lose in court as they have before when targeting cable without any legal authority to do so.
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funchords
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Re: Good but only if it applies to everyone

said by TKJunkMail See Profile :

Martin is just going after Comcast because it has fought his favorite cause as commissioner - a la carte. If the FCC is stupid enough to fine Comcast, they will lose in court as they have before when targeting cable without any legal authority to do so.
I'm just a tech guy, but I wondered the same thing as you until one of the lawyer's at Free Press listed more than half-a-dozen precedents that indicate the FCC already has the authority, enabled via that very Policy Statement.

Have you looked at those arguments? They're quite strong and together they are unassailable. They've been listed in a recent FCC filing and can be read here: »www.freepress.net/node/41653
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1 edit

Re: Good but only if it applies to everyone

said by funchords See Profile :

said by TKJunkMail See Profile :

Martin is just going after Comcast because it has fought his favorite cause as commissioner - a la carte. If the FCC is stupid enough to fine Comcast, they will lose in court as they have before when targeting cable without any legal authority to do so.
I'm just a tech guy, but I wondered the same thing as you until one of the lawyer's at Free Press listed more than half-a-dozen precedents that indicate the FCC already has the authority, enabled via that very Policy Statement.

Have you looked at those arguments? They're quite strong and together they are unassailable. They've been listed in a recent FCC filing and can be read here: »www.freepress.net/node/41653
I'd be more impressed with their legal arguments if I thought Federal Circuit & Appeals Courts and the USSC actually based their decisions purely on the law. What they apparently do is decide what they think is right(based on their own personal & political views and on current popular political theory) and then DIG UP precedent to back their decision. They don't appear to work as most people believe - that is base the decision on the law alone. I had a sitting Federal judge as a teacher in graduate school and, off the record & after class, admit that is how many cases are decided. They make a decision and THEN research the law to back the way they want to rule on a case.

So, no matter what the LAW is, the D.C. circuit may very well rule as they have in the past where cable is concerned- against the FCC.
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nasadude

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said by TKJunkMail See Profile :

Martin is just going after Comcast because it has fought his favorite cause as commissioner - a la carte. ...
I have a new theory about why Martin seems to carry water for the telcos:

before I begin, please note that Martin's wife worked in the office of the VP for Cheney.

Martin was told to make sure the telcos get whatever they want in the way of regulatory forbearance to make sure they would continue to implement the administration's warrantless wiretapping program.

a little "tin foil hat", but isn't it fun to speculate?

TScheisskopf
World News Trust

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Re: Good but only if it applies to everyone

Entirely plausible, all things considered.
fiberguy
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When it comes to Martin and the cable industry, period, its simply hard to take anything he says serious. It so incredibly clear that he's MORE than biased that he makes Fox news truly look fair and balanced in their reporting.

sporkme
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said by TKJunkMail See Profile :

[Martin is just going after Comcast because it has fought his favorite cause as commissioner - huge amounts of lobbying dollars, hookers and vacations.
Fixed.

Anonymous_
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2 edits
said by Dogfather See Profile :

Don't single out Comcast. Both Cox and Time Warner traffic shape.

TWC does not do it in all areas

when i use torrent i can get 900Kbyte/s to 1.1MByte/s down any time of the day

upload avg is 115kbyte/s

Doctor Four
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Re: Good but only if it applies to everyone

TW was also allegedly throttling NNTP (Usenet) traffic as
well. Though I never did see that for the few weeks I
still had it last year around the time they starting doing it.
--
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1 edit

Re: Good but only if it applies to everyone

Click for full size
....

Dogfather
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2 edits
said by Doctor Four See Profile :

TW was also allegedly throttling NNTP (Usenet) traffic as
well. Though I never did see that for the few weeks I
still had it last year around the time they starting doing it.
I didn't see it right away. It started for me long after all the hub-bub in the forums here. Then my normally 15Mb DLs from Giganews dropped into the 2-3Mb range in the late evenings. Use encryption and the speeds would be 15Mb day or night. My neighbors complained that their torrent traffic was getting hammered and using encryption sped them up as well.
hottboiinnc
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TWC DOES NOT DO IT! RoadRunner does who is the actual ISP.

Go read your TOS and AUPs from the help.rr.com site. You agree to both their AUPs as well as Time Warner's. RR has the right to do what they want to you since they "own" the network, TWC "leases" it according to the AUP and the TOS. The same with BH customers and anyone else who leases their lines to RoadRunner.

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1 edit

Re: Good but only if it applies to everyone

my avg upload speed out of 130Megabytes is 114Kbyte up (OR 914 KBITS/s)

no one reads em anyhow

why should i read an buch of crap
hottboiinnc
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Re: Good but only if it applies to everyone

because chances are if you don't read them you'll be one of the many on here that cries about the way ISPs manage their network.

Read what you agree to. Its there for you to read. Other wise if you don't read it shut the hell up and take your business else where. I'm sure your ISP will be glad to get rid of you.

Dogfather
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Re: Good but only if it applies to everyone

Even if you do read them, more often than not don't tell you anything about how they manage their network.

In some cases they simply say that you can't use the service in a way that degrades the performance of others in the sole opinion of the ISP.

WTF does that mean? These ISPs repeatedly refuse to clearly define abuse and/or they apply these network management principles across the board whether you're negatively "affecting" the network or not.

Unless the AUP spells out in detail what constitutes abuse, pointing to the AUP saying they told you is silly.
hottboiinnc
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Re: Good but only if it applies to everyone

RoadRunner does state in their's at help.rr.com what they do. You would know this if you went to read it. But since you don't feel like you should have to follow their guidelines you simply feel that the rules they have don't apply to you; the same as many others on here.

Hereyougo

@tds.net

I call BS. Just becuase someone hides something in a TOS doesn't mean they get carte blanche on whatever they want to do. That does seem to be a very 'equal' contract when these companies do that kind of thing. Remember that that for a contract to be enforceable they need to be conscionable. Here's a little link about this kind of thing. It works in theory in the US like this as well.
»www.fairtrading.act.gov.au/Pages···uct.html

Most of these TOS and AUP are pretty badly slanted towards the provider.
Cell phone companies trie this crap too and it seems that the feds don't care too much as much as it has happen this past 8 years.: »lawprofessors.typepad.com/contra···bit.html
fiberguy
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Re: Good but only if it applies to everyone

Please explain how anything is "hidden" in an agreement. Are these terms written on white paper in white ink? Do you need a magic decode ring to decipher the encrypted symbols to turn them into English letters? Do they hide them behind bushes in the agreement? what?

The last time I checked the TOS agreement, every word was available for me, and everyone else *should they choose to bother to read*, to read every work.

My hang up with your comment is that something is being hidden. I think you need to change your comment because as it is stated, you simply show that the consumer is lazy and doesn't care what they sign which says NOTHING for the average consumer. And, who's fault is that for the consumer not taking time to read?

funchords
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Re: Good but only if it applies to everyone

said by fiberguy See Profile :

Please explain how anything is "hidden" in an agreement. Are these terms written on white paper in white ink? Do you need a magic decode ring to decipher the encrypted symbols to turn them into English letters? Do they hide them behind bushes in the agreement? what?
So every time you start your web browser, you re-read your service "agreement" to see if someone has changed it without notifying you?

(And what kind of an "agreement" is it really if you have to check it to see whether or not you've agreed to something new?)
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fiberguy
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Re: Good but only if it applies to everyone

No, I didn't say that. BUT, when it's updated, do you not get the notice from them stating they updated their TOS agreement?

Where I WILL damn them is if they make changes to the TOS and NOT notify people. I do not agree with those that update their TOS and do so quietly. I do NOT agree that it's up to the user to "review it periodically"... you and I are talking about the word "reasonable" in another thread. Here is a perfect clear example of what is not reasonable. It's NOT reasonable to expect a user to always look over their shoulder.

Just like any other chance, I believe they should have to notify consumer with a "reasonable" amount of time and using reasonable measures.. ie: registered email address, or by mail, or in the bill.

Paypal sends out updates regularly.. and, if the update is serious enough, I have to click to agree or I can't continue. That's fair.

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3 edits

Re: Good but only if it applies to everyone

said by fiberguy See Profile :

No, I didn't say that. BUT, when it's updated, do you not get the notice from them stating they updated their TOS agreement?
When Comcast last updated its agreements, it was a few days before an FCC filing where they defended their case by referring to the changed agreements!

I had software that was monitoring the changes.

They changed the TOS documents and told nobody for about 8-9 days. Nobody mentioned it anywhere in any of Comcast's online forums or on DSLReports. The changes were significant, and there is no way that such a change would go unmentioned by a user or the press.

After waiting to see if anyone picked up on it, I sent e-mail to a contact at FreePress.net telling them about what changed and giving them the diffs. That started a round of press where Comcast essentially called FreePress.net's lawyer a liar or trouble-maker by saying that the TOS was front-page news on Comcast.net (except that it wasn't front-page news, and Google cache confirmed that).

»Comcast Changes TOS In Response To Traffic Shaping Firestorm

»www.savetheinternet.com/blog/200···ination/

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Cheese
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said by hottboiinnc See Profile :

TWC DOES NOT DO IT! RoadRunner does who is the actual ISP.

Go read your TOS and AUPs from the help.rr.com site. You agree to both their AUPs as well as Time Warner's. RR has the right to do what they want to you since they "own" the network, TWC "leases" it according to the AUP and the TOS. The same with BH customers and anyone else who leases their lines to RoadRunner.
TWC = Roadrunner I believe

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Click for full size
see image
hottboiinnc
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RR is a separate company from TWC. RR is the ISP. TWC is the operator. Go read the TOS and the AUP on the RR side. They are separate. You don't call TWC to get RR support. You call RoadRunner Support who is in Canada. Not in your home state. The only thing that is in your home state is the reboot monkeys and Tier 3/Network Operations.

RR uses the same agreement with BH and Insight in the areas that use RR instead of InsightBB or BH Internet.

You just fail to go read the agreements as I have said before. InsightBB and BH also have RR logos on their website but does NOT mean that they are RR.

You people are just stupid and only do what is easy for you to argue about because you're fuckin lazy to go read what the agreements actually say.

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Re: Good but only if it applies to everyone

Consider this:



Assume this is or becomes enforceable, would conflicting provisions in boilerplate TOS/AUP documents supersede it or be nullified by it?
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TKJunkMail
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Re: Good but only if it applies to everyone

said by funchords See Profile :

Consider this:



Assume this is or becomes enforceable, would conflicting provisions in boilerplate TOS/AUP documents supersede it or be nullified by it?
It all depends on how "reasonable" is defined. And Comcast isn't going to leave that up to the FCC. Off to court they go to define "reasonable".
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funchords
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Re: Good but only if it applies to everyone

Fine. Do you know what? The FCC ought to just reissue the policy statement without that in there. Will that satisfy you?

Xizer

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2 edits

Re: Good but only if it applies to everyone

Really?

»[TWC] TW Officially Announces Packet Shaping for All RR Users

said by From Time Warner's Help Desk :
TIME WARNER ANNOUNCES INTRODUCTION OF PACKET SHAPING TECHNOLOGY NATIONWIDE

June 6, 2007 -- Time Warner today implemented a network management tool to improve the operation of the network for all subscribers. As a result, a small minority of users may experience slower speeds during peak hours when using certain applications that consume lots of bandwidth. You can address this situation by reducing your use of bandwidth-intensive applications during peak hours. "Peak hours" are generally in the evenings.

"Packet shaping" technology has been implemented for newsgroup applications, regardless of the provider, and all peer-to-peer networks and certain other high bandwidth applications not necessarily limited to audio, video, and voice over IP telephony. Road Runner reserves the right to implement network management tools for other applications in the future.

Customers are reminded of the terms of our Acceptable Use Policy at »help.rr.com/aup:

* The Road Runner service may not be used to engage in any conduct that
interferes with Road Runner's ability to provide service to others,
including the use of excessive bandwidth.

* The Road Runner service may not be used to breach or attempt to breach
the security, the computer, the software or the data of any person or
entity, including Road Runner, to circumvent the user authentication
features or security of any host, network or account, to use or
distribute tools designed to compromise security, or to interfere with
another's use of the Road Runner service through the posting or
transmitting of a virus or other harmful item or to deliberately
overload or flood that entity's system.

Customers are further advised that efforts designed to circumvent our network management
tools may be in violation of our Acceptable Use Policy and may result in account suspension
without warning.
And my 3rd party NNTP service was traffic shaped into the ground. Only after using encryption (on the same service, Giganews) did my speeds pick back up. Turn off encryption and they would over time fall again.

Xizer

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New York, NY

Re: Good but only if it applies to everyone

I downloaded over 500 gigs off of Usenet last month on my RR connection without experiencing throttling.

Sucks to be you, I guess. That little news announcement hasn't come to fruition for me.

Dogfather
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Re: Good but only if it applies to everyone

Doesn't suck to be me anymore. At that address I switched to FiOS. 50/20Mb for a while 'cause of the free first month but now I have 20/5. Of course now there aren't any problems.

At my Cox address I rarely use usenet and don't use BT do I don't know what they're up to. Lately though speeds in the evening have been shitty no matter what.

Morac

join:2001-08-30
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Except Comcast went above and beyond traffic shaping. Traffic shaping gives certain packets priority over others and limits connection speeds. Comcast just decided to block certain packets completely and violated several Internet standards to do so. They did all this while refusing to acknowledge that they did so.
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KnightAR

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Cox does throttle Bittorrent Traffic but it's only for Uploads, AND they ADMITTED they do ... and they have limits you actually know about. Comcast throttled both Download & Upload and said they did no such thing which was a obvious lie ... which I think is worse then actually doing it without admitting they are even when it was proved.

funchords
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1 edit

Re: Good but only if it applies to everyone

said by KnightAR See Profile :

Cox does throttle Bittorrent Traffic but it's only for Uploads, AND they ADMITTED they do ... and they have limits you actually know about. Comcast throttled both Download & Upload
1. Cox's day is coming
2. In P2P, everyone's upload is someone else's download
3. Admitting doing wrong doesn't make it right
and said they did no such thing which was a obvious lie ... which I think is worse then actually doing it without admitting they are even when it was proved.
Right. On a technical and real level, Cox and Comcast did precisely and exactly the same thing.

On an investigative level, both kept it secret. But when directly confronted, only Comcast denied, deflected, diverted attention in order for people to get confused. Cox got a pass from the public's anger when it simply confirmed the allegation.

I haven't tested in a while, but it seems that both companies continue to do this, apparently. (I haven't heard otherwise.)
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KnightAR

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Re: Good but only if it applies to everyone

That's what I'm trying to say tho, That is why Cox is getting a pass. I didn't say it made it right ... It just seems that it's better to admit what they are doing then to try to deny it and try to keep the truth a secret.

I mostly download from people on dedicated servers on Bittorrent ... so Cox's blocking doesn't bother me much ... eventually any isp doing this will get whats coming to them.

TKJunkMail
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LOL. Lots of noise about how TOUGH Martin was going to be. Well he has released his recommendation on Comcast:
- No fine.
- Stop P2P blocking before year end. Something Comcast already said they were going to do.

I guess he doesn't think he has any real power given his recommendations are already what was going to happen.

I wonder if Comcast will take the FCC to court over this anyway if the FCC even issues this weak order. The news story says they will.

Story:
»money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/art···UNE5.htm
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