TKJunkMail
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1 edit |  Law of unintended consequences
The push to keep illegal P2P traffic flowing for the nets freeloaders will result in more drastic methods of network management. And they are already coming - caps; pay-by-byte tiers; overage fees; and higher costs. What will the next crusade be because the music thieves are unhappy their free music fix has been threatened? Price regulation by the government? Laws to prohibit caps? Nationalization of the communication industry?
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hottboiinnc
ME
join:2003-10-15
Cleveland, OH
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| If Comcast loses in Court; they should announce their caps the same day as starting that week. Get rid of all those damn free loading P2P. When i first signed up for RoadRunner in Fremont Ohio the node was hella slow after a certain time. Found out one neighbor was on there downloading from LimeWire when it first came out. Movies up the ass and music. It was good to call the Abuse Department and have his Internet killed. |
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funchords
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| said by hottboiinnc  :If Comcast loses in Court; they should announce their caps the same day as starting that week. Get rid of all those damn free loading P2P. There's nothing wrong with P2P, and it's not freeloading if your neighbor is voluntarily donating the bandwidth on his paid-for subscription.
said by hottboiinnc :When i first signed up for RoadRunner in Fremont Ohio the node was hella slow after a certain time. Found out one neighbor was on there downloading from LimeWire when it first came out. Movies up the ass and music. It was good to call the Abuse Department and have his Internet killed. That's the way that Comcast should handle such things as well. Legally participating in P2P and harming nobody is one thing. Interfering with your neighbors and refusing to fix it is another. The traditional practice in Internetdom is to cancel access for those that generate interference complaints.
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Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
HTTP is the new Bandwidth Hog...
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Interesting
@tds.net | reply to TKJunkMail
Interesting wording there, buddy. |
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Karl Bode
News Guy
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| reply to TKJunkMail
quote:
What will the next crusade be because the music thieves are unhappy their free music fix has been threatened? Price regulation by the government? Laws to prohibit caps? Nationalization of the communication industry?
Puppy murder? The slaughter of seals? Be afraid! |
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JakCrow
join:2001-12-06
Palo Alto, CA | reply to TKJunkMail
And there will be ISPs that will not do caps and per-byte fees and they will take customers away from those ISPs that do. Your doom-n-gloom is very un-capitalistic, but that is to be expected. |
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TKJunkMail
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| said by JakCrow :And there will be ISPs that will not do caps and per-byte fees and they will take customers away from those ISPs that do. And I'll believe it when it happens. So far it hasn't.
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Rob
In Deo speramus, God Bless the USA
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| said by TKJunkMail :said by JakCrow :And there will be ISPs that will not do caps and per-byte fees and they will take customers away from those ISPs that do. And I'll believe it when it happens. So far it hasn't. Not only that. But once they see how much "extra" money these ISPs are making - they'll adopt similar practices. |
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pspcrazy
Anime Freak
join:2008-02-06
San Diego, CA
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| reply to TKJunkMail
Lol, too bad most people forget that even with P2P gone we still got thousands of TB's of downloads on Megaupload.com and Rapidshare.com which are not only better then most p2p clients but also allows for a much faster download.
P2P isn't the problem, it's already clear it's the backbone of their whole system. Even if you get rid of P2P there are always other ways to obtain high transfer rates per month. |
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funchords
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| said by pspcrazy :Lol, too bad most people forget that even with P2P gone we still got thousands of TB's of downloads on Megaupload.com and Rapidshare.com which are not only better then most p2p clients but also allows for a much faster download. These "services" are profitable because of ISP hate for P2P and, unlike P2P, they're are awful at handling congestion.
A BitTorrent transfer avoids congested routes. An HTTP transfer has no choice but to slug through them.
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Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
HTTP is the new Bandwidth Hog...
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fiberguy
My views are my own.
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join:2005-05-20
| reply to JakCrow
said by JakCrow :And there will be ISPs that will not do caps and per-byte fees and they will take customers away from those ISPs that do. Your doom-n-gloom is very un-capitalistic, but that is to be expected. It will never happen. When ever there is a move to tighter controls of any product, there is always one that wants to pop up and be the hero of the day. Unfortunately those hero's find their kryptonite and die.
What a lot of people don't realize is that like it or not, the model that we are faced with in this country is not one of glut. There are real costs to provide services to people. The more popular something becomes, the harder it is to sustain an unlimited or un-metered product with out some sort of control in place.
There are always the few that spoil it for the masses. Some people are smug, condescending, demanding, unreasonable, and love to push the envelope on things. What happens? They are met with resistance. The battle always ensues and while David THINKS he has beat Goliath, Goliath always comes back and puts his foot on David, AND the rest of the people too.
I can cite many examples of how this happens. No matter how much people think the government can swoop in and save the day, they reality is that they can't.. and they know it. This is why the government dependent-babies get upset and feel betrayed when the government sides against them.
Again, the reality is there is a model we live with in this country and there is no amount of activism that is going to change the beast that is The U.S. Economy and Political Machine. So many have tried over time.. and it never happens.
And, again, as for another ISP NOT traffic shaping.. who's the other side? Phone? As we're talking about cable here, I do believe it was phone, long before cable came to light, that wanted to charge for their pipes and charge a premium to some who wanted better access. now remind me, is that not traffic shaping?
I really don't think you're going to have any saviors to rescue you and give you a freely unlimited internet experience.. NOT EVEN THE BELOVED FiOS. Verizon is THE last corporation that you should ever turn to for favors. |
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Cheese
Premium
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Naples, FL
clubs:
| reply to JakCrow
said by JakCrow :And there will be ISPs that will not do caps and per-byte fees and they will take customers away from those ISPs that do. Your doom-n-gloom is very un-capitalistic, but that is to be expected. Once the big players start, everyone else will follow. |
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funchords
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| reply to fiberguy
said by fiberguy :And, again, as for another ISP NOT traffic shaping.. who's the other side? Phone? As we're talking about cable here, I do believe it was phone, long before cable came to light, that wanted to charge for their pipes and charge a premium to some who wanted better access. now remind me, is that not traffic shaping? No, and you're smart enough to know the difference.
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Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
HTTP is the new Bandwidth Hog...
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espaeth
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| reply to funchords
said by funchords :These "services" are profitable because of ISP hate for P2P and, unlike P2P, they're are awful at handling congestion. I suspect those services are popular/profitable because they use a client that is installed by default on operating systems from every single computer and device manufacturer out there.
Also, ISPs probably have less of an issue with these options because they involved fixed duration transfers -- you download the bits you need to get the file and then you get off the network. It's when subscribers stop being consumers or producers of content and start becoming traffickers of content that the problem set in.
said by funchords :A BitTorrent transfer avoids congested routes. Using the 802.magic extension on routers?
said by funchords :An HTTP transfer has no choice but to slug through them. Point congestion is easy to overcome by balancing content distribution across multiple presentation servers. This is what megaupload and rapidshare do, and content distribution companies like Akamai have it down to a science. |
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funchords
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| said by espaeth :I suspect those services are popular/profitable because they use a client that is installed by default on operating systems from every single computer and device manufacturer out there. Not really. The default newsreader doesn't quite cut the mustard for the Mega- and Gigi- sized uses that these guys are using usenet for today.
said by espaeth :Also, ISPs probably have less of an issue with these options because they involved fixed duration transfers -- you download the bits you need to get the file and then you get off the network. I'd agree with you if they weren't throttling these too.
said by espaeth :said by funchords :A BitTorrent transfer avoids congested routes. Using the 802.magic extension on routers? No, using the Choke/Unchoke method. Only 3-4 peers are ever unchoked per swarm, and only the top 2-3 of these get to transfer data for longer than 30 seconds. The remaining flow marches through the peer list looking for better peers that might replace the top 2-3. This "taste test" makes sure that any congested routes are generally avoided.
said by espaeth :said by funchords :An HTTP transfer has no choice but to slug through them. Point congestion is easy to overcome by balancing content distribution across multiple presentation servers. This is what megaupload and rapidshare do, and content distribution companies like Akamai have it down to a science. Wow -- Megaupload and Rapidshare are distributed CDN-style? I've downloaded a few things here and there off of these, and they're terrible. I'll have to check out the hop count next time.
Akamai, of course, is excellent.
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Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
HTTP is the new Bandwidth Hog...
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fiberguy
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Premium
join:2005-05-20 | reply to funchords
It is a form of traffic shaping.. If SBC was able to allow pay for priority, that's a form of traffic shaping. |
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espaeth
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| reply to funchords
said by funchords :said by espaeth :I suspect those services are popular/profitable because they use a client that is installed by default on operating systems from every single computer and device manufacturer out there. Not really. The default newsreader doesn't quite cut the mustard for the Mega- and Gigi- sized uses that these guys are using usenet for today. ??? Rapidshare and Megaupload are HTTP-based services that use any standard web browser.
said by funchords :said by espaeth :Also, ISPs probably have less of an issue with these options because they involved fixed duration transfers -- you download the bits you need to get the file and then you get off the network. I'd agree with you if they weren't throttling these too. They're throttling every transfer on every protocol?
said by funchords :No, using the Choke/Unchoke method. Only 3-4 peers are ever unchoked per swarm, and only the top 2-3 of these get to transfer data for longer than 30 seconds. It's only the receiver that picks and chooses the flows though -- the senders will continue to make content available even if their upstream is congested.
I still disagree with selling P2P as any kind of congestion friendly approach. Content distributed with P2P results in more traffic being consumed at the edge than a straight HTTP fetch of the same content. I also still assert that placing the distribution load on the broadband edge links where network speeds are slower and infrastructure is more expensive is retarded. You arrive at that type of solution by designing opportunistically, not strategically.
Sure, as a user seeking content you may get your content a little faster, but you're ignoring the broader impact of the solution. If I wanted to get a lot of money in a hurry I could go rob banks, but clearly there would be long term impacts to that choice which makes it a very poor option strategically. The difference with P2P is the long term impacts aren't of direct concern to the average subscriber, so they have no reason to care about the infrastructure impact unless the ISP makes it real for them by billing by usage, for instance.
said by funchords :Wow -- Megaupload and Rapidshare are distributed CDN-style? Not in the Akamai sense of having servers somewhere close to you geographically, but the files they host are split across many presentation servers, each with different upstream carrier bandwidth to eliminate point source congestion. |
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funchords
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| said by espaeth :said by funchords :said by espaeth :I suspect those services are popular/profitable because they use a client that is installed by default on operating systems from every single computer and device manufacturer out there. Not really. The default newsreader doesn't quite cut the mustard for the Mega- and Gigi- sized uses that these guys are using usenet for today. ??? Rapidshare and Megaupload are HTTP-based services that use any standard web browser. My screw up. I'm in too many threads. I was thinking Giganews and the other NNTP providers.  That skewed most of the rest of my reply.
It's only the receiver that picks and chooses the flows though -- the senders will continue to make content available even if their upstream is congested. True for that example, yes. Hopefully one of the outcomes of this battle will be ISPs provisioned to be overall more symmetrical or some other way to keep 128 homes from sharing ~10 Mbps upload. The one thing that I don't hear the Cable providers saying is that DOCSIS 3 will end their extra-ordinary "management."
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Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
HTTP is the new Bandwidth Hog...
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hottboiinnc
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| reply to funchords
How do you figure nothing is wrong with P2P? The only reason it was invented was to steal music. Back with Napster. The RIAA should start going after these services again and start shutting them down then move to BT and the Internet wouldnt have any problems. Make people use another methods to movie large files of ISOs and game batches before those.
my neighbors was killed on one complaint. his bandwidth habits were noticed after i called and complained and they checked the node. This was 3 days after having RR available in the neighborhood after TWC rebuilt the entire city from the ground up. |
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JakCrow
join:2001-12-06
Palo Alto, CA | reply to Cheese
My my. How uncapitalistic people become over something like caps. Unless the cable and telcos destroy independent ISPs, there will be uncapped service. |
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