| Got ISDN covered--IDSL? Okay I have been googling around for a while now but not found anything in the way of satisfactory information on IDSL.
I've recently set up a new ISDN line at my mother's place and it's working well, but through this I had been wondering if IDSL were the way to go instead. I had already asked AT&T (no longer Bellsouth) about IDSL and the person who took my ISDN order had never heard of it before. So I went ahead and ordered ISDN instead.
I understand that IDSL is a tad faster, and that it uses both B-Channels as well as the D-Channel to accomplish this. That means no telephone use over the same line, however, the always-on, no-dial nature of IDSL is still appealing to me. Now that I actually have an ISDN line to my location, can I now get IDSL? How can I go about doing this if so? As I am guessing, AT&T will be of no help--I was actually speaking to an ISDN worker who mentioned he had never heard of IDSL by the way, just an fyi as I already know that the rest of AT&T does not seem to know that ISDN even exists. What kind of cost difference would I be looking at for ISDN? Would the cost of the line and the ISP access be split, or from the same entity? It is a little confusing and as I can't find anyone to even ask about giving me this service I'm more than clueless. Thanks for any info. |
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| In my experience, you're lucky to even get ISDN. I'd take it and run.
Of course, others may disagree. |
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Squidii
join:2004-06-30
Little Rock, AR Reviews:
 ·Cobridge Communi..
| reply to Endymion_
said by Endymion_:Okay I have been googling around for a while now but not found anything in the way of satisfactory information on IDSL. I've recently set up a new ISDN line at my mother's place and it's working well, but through this I had been wondering if IDSL were the way to go instead. I had already asked AT&T (no longer Bellsouth) about IDSL and the person who took my ISDN order had never heard of it before. So I went ahead and ordered ISDN instead. I understand that IDSL is a tad faster, and that it uses both B-Channels as well as the D-Channel to accomplish this. That means no telephone use over the same line, however, the always-on, no-dial nature of IDSL is still appealing to me. Now that I actually have an ISDN line to my location, can I now get IDSL? How can I go about doing this if so? As I am guessing, AT&T will be of no help--I was actually speaking to an ISDN worker who mentioned he had never heard of IDSL by the way, just an fyi as I already know that the rest of AT&T does not seem to know that ISDN even exists. What kind of cost difference would I be looking at for ISDN? Would the cost of the line and the ISP access be split, or from the same entity? It is a little confusing and as I can't find anyone to even ask about giving me this service I'm more than clueless. Thanks for any info. One of the little independent phone companies ( cyber.. something ) supposedly offered IDSL out of my CO, so I called and asked. He explained I was to far away for it. To which I said, but, I have ISDN, I'm pretty sure that is the requirement, then he said, "Oh, no, IDSL works differently it uses high frequencies and you have to have filters..".
So, good luck. I've yet to find anyone who knew what I was talking about. |
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| reply to Endymion_
Yeah that guy was surely speaking of generic DSL. I don't know much about IDSL specifics but using an ISDN line it does not have those limitations--nor does it need filters. Another recent thread here someone mentioned they had IDSL through isomedia.com so I may give them a call, but I am still just looking for information on it at this point, if I could hear from someone who actually has experience with it that would be nice for some solid info on who supplies the line, etc. If it were only me involved I might be fine with just ISDN, however using the router to check connections, bring up the line, etc. while simple tasks, are things my mother would rather not do. If IDSL were as inexpensive as ISDN is in my area it might be worth it for the always-on experience to her to just get a POTS landline for phone and IDSL on the other. |
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wierdo
join:2001-02-16
Tulsa, OK Reviews:
·Cox HSI
 ·T-Mobile US
| reply to Squidii
said by Squidii:One of the little independent phone companies ( cyber.. something ) supposedly offered IDSL out of my CO, so I called and asked. He explained I was to far away for it. To which I said, but, I have ISDN, I'm pretty sure that is the requirement, then he said, "Oh, no, IDSL works differently it uses high frequencies and you have to have filters..". So, good luck. I've yet to find anyone who knew what I was talking about. It does work differently. It can't be provisioned through a SLC like regular ISDN, and IIRC it can't use ISDN repeaters. It's better than ADSL because it's good out to at least 18kft, often much farther.
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It's wierdo, not weirdo. Yes, I know that's not the 'proper' spelling of the similar english language word.  |
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 ATTekGot Sand?Premium
join:2000-12-13
Pinon Hills, CA | said by wierdo:said by Squidii:One of the little independent phone companies ( cyber.. something ) supposedly offered IDSL out of my CO, so I called and asked. He explained I was to far away for it. To which I said, but, I have ISDN, I'm pretty sure that is the requirement, then he said, "Oh, no, IDSL works differently it uses high frequencies and you have to have filters..". So, good luck. I've yet to find anyone who knew what I was talking about. It does work differently. Not really
It can't be provisioned through a SLC like regular ISDN, Yes it can
and IIRC it can't use ISDN repeaters. Yes it can
It's better than ADSL because it's good out to at least 18kft, often much farther.
Much further...because it can run through the same equipment as ISDN. In the west we (Bell) never installed these for end users. Covad normally leases these from us and resells them. As far as the Telco is concerned, it's an ISDN that doesn't terminate on our office equipment.
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What does THIS button do..... |
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wierdo
join:2001-02-16
Tulsa, OK Reviews:
·Cox HSI
·T-Mobile US
| said by ATTek:said by wierdo:said by Squidii:One of the little independent phone companies ( cyber.. something ) supposedly offered IDSL out of my CO, so I called and asked. He explained I was to far away for it. To which I said, but, I have ISDN, I'm pretty sure that is the requirement, then he said, "Oh, no, IDSL works differently it uses high frequencies and you have to have filters..". So, good luck. I've yet to find anyone who knew what I was talking about. It does work differently. Not really It can't be provisioned through a SLC like regular ISDN, Yes it can and IIRC it can't use ISDN repeaters. Yes it can It's better than ADSL because it's good out to at least 18kft, often much farther.
Much further...because it can run through the same equipment as ISDN. In the west we (Bell) never installed these for end users. Covad normally leases these from us and resells them. As far as the Telco is concerned, it's an ISDN that doesn't terminate on our office equipment. Perhaps SWB was just being rude. Or maybe it requires different cards that they didn't stock. Or possibly they were claiming not to be capable of running IDSL through a SLC just because they didn't want to burn 3 channels on the backhaul for the UNE price.
Either way, SWB claimed to be unable to provision IDSL through a SLC.
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It's wierdo, not weirdo. Yes, I know that's not the 'proper' spelling of the similar english language word. |
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robbinPremium,MVM
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX
kudos:1 | reply to Endymion_
said by Endymion_:If it were only me involved I might be fine with just ISDN, however using the router to check connections, bring up the line, etc. while simple tasks, are things my mother would rather not do. Once you have everything properly configured your mother shouldn't have to do anything she wouldn't normally. If the router is set up properly, it is transparent. The router does the work -- your mother just checks her email, opens explorer, etc. |
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 tschmidtPremium,MVM
join:2000-11-12
Milford, NH
kudos:5
 ·Fairpoint Commun..
 ·Hollis Hosting
| reply to Endymion_
IDSL is data only version of ISDN. You are correct it is a little faster 144/144 instead of 128/128.
The advantage of IDSL is that it uses ISDN signalling so it can be deployed anywhere ISDN can. Being data only it is an always on connection. The down side is it cannot be used for Voice unless you want to go the VoIP route. The ISP has to be collocated in the CO serving your line for it to be available.
Here in NH there were a few ISPs that offered it but it is getting harder and harder to find. What is becoming more common is some sort of fractional T1.
Check for DLEC (Data Local Exchange Carrier) or any ISPs servicing the local area to see if they offer IDSL. Might want to check out your state's public utility commission to see if they have a list of service providers.
/tom |
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| reply to robbin
robbin: You are right--to use her computer? It all works transparently. It all works transparently to use her telephone also. But, that is when it works--although both the phone jack from the wall as well as the electrical line from the mains to the router are running through a battery backup, storms and such have caused weirdness that scrambled the router before. A time or two I had to plug up another router to get the circuit to "reset" itself somehow, as just restarting the router was not solving the issue. Now, this is not a problem for me to do. I could manage it all day, every day, if I needed to. But as I'm not living there, what I can do is not exactly what is under consideration, it's about eliminating problems for someone who is a lot less technical minded than I. My mother is more of a mind that she could just live without the world wide web or email services til things fix themselves or til I come around to sort out her issues. However, this won't do when she has to rely on the same equipment just to have a working phone in the house, I hope you are starting to understand.
Just having an always-on for only the computer would be a big no-nonsense help in this instance.
tshcmidt: Thanks for a very enlightening and informative post, this is good to know as IDSL seems to be even more difficult to get concrete information on than ISDN. It may be a bust from the outset but at least now I am armed with some information to ask for.  |
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robbinPremium,MVM
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX
kudos:1 | My mom is the same way -- but dsl can have just as many problems and reset issues as isdn. When I first got my isdn line I had problems on a regular basis. I haven't had any problems with it in years now. Granted I currently only use it for telephone since I got my T1, but isdn can be trouble-free. It may take the Telco a little while to get the line stable, but once it is I doubt she will have many problems. |
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 SplitpairPremium
join:2000-07-29
Cow Towne
kudos:3 | reply to Endymion_
said by Endymion_:Okay I have been googling around for a while now but not found anything in the way of satisfactory information on IDSL. IDSL and ISDN use the same transmission technology the difference being ISDN is switch based using the D channel to communicate call setup and teardown with the switch and the B channels for data or voice transport while IDSL is DSLAM based and since there is no setup communication between the modem and the DSLAM the D channel can be bonded into the pipe resulting in a 144 symmetrical service vs. 128 with ISDN.
Both ISDN and IDSL can be delivered over any SLC system the only restrictions being some SLC systems such as Conklin DISC*S and Litespan do not always support D channel bonding and integrated SLC systems will require a switch sideport or hairpin to transport CLEC IDSL thru a CO channel bank (D4) into the CO switch and then out to the SLC system.
Since they are not required to many ILEC’s in this country do not support or allow sideports or hairpins thru their switches and that can be a limiting factor in delivering IDSL thru SLC.
Wayne
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If you cannot fix it with a buttset and some beanies you ain't a technician.
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SplitpairPremium
join:2000-07-29
Cow Towne
kudos:3 | reply to wierdo
said by wierdo:It does work differently. Nope they both use the same 2B1Q line coding.
It can't be provisioned through a SLC like regular ISDN Since it is the same transport and uses the same plug-ins as ISDN it can served out of a SLC system with some restrictions on channel bonding and integrated SLC.
and IIRC it can't use ISDN repeaters. It's better than ADSL because it's good out to at least 18kft, often much farther.
ISDN/IDSL is good out to 18Kf with unloaded 26 gauge and about 25Kf with unloaded 24/22 gauge. That range can be extended by another half by installing a mid-span U repeater or can be run out to I think 25Kf on 26ga using the Adtran Total Reach ISDN cards.
Wayne
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If you cannot fix it with a buttset and some beanies you ain't a technician.
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robbinPremium,MVM
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX
kudos:1 | I'm curious about this. Let's say that I am 35,000 feet from the CO but there is no DSL provider there who will provision ISDL. However another 35,000 feet of so to the second or third CO away there is a provider. Can I get ISDL? |
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| reply to robbin
said by robbin:My mom is the same way -- but dsl can have just as many problems and reset issues as isdn. When I first got my isdn line I had problems on a regular basis. I haven't had any problems with it in years now. Granted I currently only use it for telephone since I got my T1, but isdn can be trouble-free. It may take the Telco a little while to get the line stable, but once it is I doubt she will have many problems. I appreciate your confidence, but it's not been our experience, sorry. You're absolutely right that it should be problem free, but is it? Unfortunately, not always, like right now for instance. |
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robbinPremium,MVM
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX
kudos:1 | I have had ISDN for over ten years. The first couple were not trouble free, but once they got all of the line issues fixed it has been. Sorry to hear you are continuing to have problems, but from experience I can state that it can be just as good as any other type of Internet connection. |
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| reply to robbin
said by robbin:I'm curious about this. Let's say that I am 35,000 feet from the CO but there is no DSL provider there who will provision ISDL. However another 35,000 feet of so to the second or third CO away there is a provider. Can I get ISDL? No |
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| reply to robbin
said by robbin:I have had ISDN for over ten years. The first couple were not trouble free, but once they got all of the line issues fixed it has been. Sorry to hear you are continuing to have problems, but from experience I can state that it can be just as good as any other type of Internet connection. And I had ISDN for a few years at the same location, mostly problem free. Another issue is that not only is it not free of problems, but that even when it is problem free? My mother has never quite been able to understand the concept of "logging in" to ISDN, or making "a dialup connection" with her ISDN router. I'm not kidding. Try as I might, she does not seem to grok the process, and I can't blame her. She doesn't really care how it works, only that it does work, and even when it operates properly, she still doesn't understand it. This hampers her ability to just use it effectively.
To give you a for-instance here, when "her internet is down?" She's never understood that the problem just could be that the local ISP isn't answering the modem line. The fix is easy, just select one of the other numbers I've already set up in the OCLM, I've got four for the same ISP all in there, each a distinct number. But it's a router, not a modem, she never hears a dialtone, or a weird analogue noise as it connects. So I guess she's never assocated the fact that it operates just like dialup, no matter how many ways I've attempted to explain this to her.
This isn't entirely a problem, but it's caused other problems that just shouldn't happen. Like what? Well like her calling AT&T to complain that "my ISDN isn't working!" When the real problem is that the local ISP number it's dialing to is just busy that day. This has also worked in the opposite direction--when she has had a real actual problem with the ISDN line to the point of not having a dial tone on her phones, she didn't call AT&T to complain about it when she should have, because I explained to her last time that it was just a busy day at the ISP. Even though that's got nothing to do with her voice calls.
At the end of the day, with no direct user intervention required to use an always-on IDSL in a similar manner to conventional DSL, she would be in a much better no-nonsense situation. This day-to-day management and the problem solving sensibility that comes with it is just not in her area. |
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robbinPremium,MVM
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX
kudos:1 | Sounds like you just need a better ISP. |
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| reply to Endymion_
The only place I had ever managed to get any sensible info on actually GETTING IDSL happened to be Covad, via their availability check. I forget what they labelled it as, but it was some along the lines of 144/144 small business DSL... for $125 a month.
I instantly decided against that since I was already paying $50 a month for ISDN and internet access. $75 more for what amounts to a whole 2 kilobytes/sec just wasn't even worth considering. If you can find a way to get IDSL, keep in mind that it may be much more expensive than plain ISDN.
As for getting a router to handle auto-dialing the connections, once it gets setup, it is almost completely transparent. When I had ISDN I used a Cisco 804 to auto-dial, and the result was basically the same as an always on connection since I leave my server running. Once or twice a day the connection would drop for about 10-15 seconds and come right back up automatically. I think that'd be the best solution.
said by robbin: I'm curious about this. Let's say that I am 35,000 feet from the CO but there is no DSL provider there who will provision IDSL. However another 35,000 feet of so to the second or third CO away there is a provider. Can I get IDSL? The odds of you finding an ISP that actually deals with IDSL is practically zero. The only places you're likely to have any luck would be with your telco directly, or an CLEC that services your area.
While it's my understanding that you can get IDSL anywhere you can get ISDN, I'm not absolutely sure that's correct. Someone more knowledgeable about that can comment. But I can tell you that you can almost certainly get an ISDN line anywhere in Texas. ISDN is only slightly slower than IDSL, though neither are "fast" by any means either, but it beats dialup. You may get a bit of a runaround with your telco about it, and/or have a hard time finding anyone who has a clue what ISDN even is, but the Texas Public Utility Commission says that .....
said by [Texas PUC :
] (c) Availability of ISDN.
(1) Each dominant certificated telecommunications utility (DCTU) shall make ISDN available to all customers in exchange areas having 50,000 or more access lines as of February 22, 1995. For purposes of this section, making ISDN available means providing ISDN to a customer within 30 days of that customer's request. Nothing in this section shall be construed as requiring a DCTU to provide ISDN to any customer prior to that customer's request for ISDN. The requirements of this paragraph shall not be met by making ISDN available to the customers of these exchange areas using a foreign exchange (FX) arrangement.
(2) Each DCTU subject to the requirements of paragraph (1) of this subsection shall make ISDN available to all customers in exchange areas having less than 50,000 access lines as of February 22, 1995. The requirements of this paragraph may be met by making ISDN available to the customers of these exchange areas using a FX arrangement, if that is the most economically efficient means for the DCTU to make ISDN available.
(3) It is the goal of the commission that ISDN should be made available to customers in all exchange areas not included in paragraphs (1) and (2) of this subsection. To this end, all telecommunications providers are encouraged to work together to make ISDN available to the customers of the DCTUs that do not have the facilities with which to make ISDN available to their customers. In the exchange areas not included in paragraph (1) of this section, the commission recognizes that ISDN may be made available using a FX arrangement, if that is the most economically efficient means for the DCTU to make ISDN available. You can read the whole chapter at »www.puc.state.tx.us/rules/subrul···.142.doc
In short ISDN provisioning is practically mandatory in Texas. |
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