ultracat
join:2008-01-30
Toronto, ON
 ·TELUS
·Bell Sympatico
·TekSavvy Solutions..
| reply to Guspaz
Re: Bell's upcoming plans for Wholesalers!
Like I said, true in general. Specifically though, there is a "break even" point at which businesses get interested because it becomes affordable for them to offer a service and make a decent profit. I never said the higher the density the worse off for the ISP, or that there was a ceiling or anything where it stopped making sense. These ISPs in high density areas can make as much as they want by shrinking their costs, as far as I care. The point I'm trying to make is that there is some cut-off point in population density where the cost to run cable and hook the network together becomes affordable. To say HK and Toronto are not comparable, you must be talking about scaling profits, not about whether it's possible or not at all. I'm talking about how Toronto, like HK, has a pop density above the break even point for affordably laying the network down. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, but I don't want to confuse those two points. Maybe not suburrbia, but definitely downtown. |
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LittleStone
join:2003-10-31
Ottawa, ON
·TekSavvy Solutions..
·Bell Sympatico
| Yes, I agree with you. And also it's way more difficult to rewire buildings in HK since there's not much room to run new cable. Replacing old wiring inside concrete walls is not cheap neither. Buildings here always have enough room behind dry-walls for wiring.
The cost advantage HK has is the exiting underground network ducts for cables and the last miles of copper are not controlled by one company. This is competition policy at work. Before the full deregulation in mid-90's, telecom services in HK were very much just like here. |
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Omr
join:2004-01-10
M1S-1B3
1 edit | reply to R0CKY
With our Population Density and Bells "threshold" tolerances I'm beginning to get cozy with 5Mbps. If we want Fiber we turn to municipalities, push David Miller to setup a municipal fiber backbone that is open access but with GAS like structured fees.
EDIT: Fiber Backbone is all but done, I meant Fiber to the Last Mile. |
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Mayanrd G Krebs
@teksavvy.com
| reply to mr_hexen
said by mr_hexen  :but lets not forget the state of the economy there and the actual population. I was just mentioning that evenly a country with clearly less money and less technology can get it right. and it's 37 sq.miles  Metropolitan Toronto is 240 sq. miles.
FTTH with the population density in Toronto ought to be a no-brainer. |
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jat
join:2008-04-28
Burlington, ON
| reply to ultracat
said by ultracat :said by jat :said by jat :The City of Toronto proper only has 2.5 million people, and a population density of 4000/km^2. It only hits 5 million when you tack on Peel, York, and Durham, which have population densities of 900/km^2, 500/km^2, and 200/km^2, respectively. (See Wikipedia.) Compare that to Hong Kong's 7 million people with a population density of 6000/km^2, and suddenly Toronto seems tiny. Just did a little math. Hong Kong has 40% more people than Toronto+Peel+York+Durham, in only 1/6th the area. They're not really comparable if you ask me. From a network standpoint they are. You make it sound like the higher the density, the better. That's fine in general, but really you just have to look at it this way: low density = not affordable to run all the cable. Then you hit a certain density where it becomes affordable. As density increases, it's all the better but really a moot point once you've passed the "it's affordable" level, know what I mean? Higher densities beyond the threshold are still more profitable, which means more incentive to deploy fiber. But otherwise I agree. I was only trying to point out that just because HK can, doesn't mean Toronto can. The two cities differ drastically in both population density and their local economies. Any analysis of fiber deployment in Toronto has to be independent of HK's deployment.
For example, one thing we were discussing on IRC is the cost of laying the same length of fiber in both cities. Not only is it potentially less profitable in Toronto (due to lower population density), it's also possibly more expensive to deploy. Sure the cost of hardware, fiber, and building materials is probably about the same. But a large cost of laying fiber is the labour involved, which is likely much more expensive over here. It was also suggested that HK has a lot of above ground wiring (can't vouch for the veracity of that), which greatly reduces costs, but which our extreme winter weather makes a lot less feasible.
In any case, there's certainly no reason every high rise in Toronto couldn't be wired with FTTB, at the very least. I'm sure almost all of the downtown core is, it's just the more distant apartment buildings that are more expensive to service that lack it. FTTH to residential houses, on the other hand, probably won't happen for a while, since they're not much more cost effective to serve than the suburbs. |
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BellACancer
join:2008-06-04
| Les gens qui essaient de justifier les coûts exorbitants de l'internet par la supposée faible densité de population en comparaison de certains autres pays sont soient très peu informés, soient très faibles d'esprits. En effet, sur Wikipédia, on peut trouver que :
Densité de population dans la ville de Montréal : 4439/km²
Densité de population dans la ville de Toronto : 3972/km²
Densité de population à Hong Kong : 6352/km²
Comme on peut le constater, la différence n'est pas si énorme surtout si l'on considère que Hong Kong est une des places les plus densément peuplés au monde.
*************************************************************
For people who cannot understand french yet in 2008 :
People who try to justify the exorbitant costs of the Internet by the supposed low population density compared to some other countries are very poorly informed or have either very low IQ. Indeed, the following can be found on Wikipédia :
Population density Montreal: 4439/km ²
Population density Toronto: 3972/km ²
Population density Hong Kong: 6352/km ²
As you can see, the difference is not so huge, especially if one considers that Hong Kong is one of the most (4th) densely location in the world. |
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Bicephale
join:2005-09-24
·TekSavvy Solutions..
| reply to R0CKY
I'm not immortal, i won't live forever so it's
just not a solution to wait for better last-mile
wiring but i certainly can wish that Bell will
switch to ADSL2+. MoDems have become affordable
and their counterparts at the other end will as
well, eventually. When that happens i wouldn't
mind to hand out 50 $ for the MoDem's peer card! |
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h4wwh8pgio
@cia.com
| reply to jat
»www.alcatel-lucent.com/wps/porta···1150.xml
"Kuala Lumpur (Malaysia), FTTH Council APAC, July 22, 2008 - Alcatel-Lucent (Euronext Paris and NYSE: ALU) today announced it has been selected by Suo Cable Net, a Japanese cable-TV operator, to design, integrate and deploy a Gigabit Passive Optical Network (GPON) solution. This new network, which will enable Suo Cable Net to begin rolling out high-speed Internet and video services this month, will be the first commercial GPON deployment in Japan."
So perhaps Japan isn't the mecca we thought it was. Their current FTTH is all 1Gbit GEPON, split 64 ways max. So not much bandwidth if you are selling up to 100Mbps packages. |
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xdrag
join:2005-02-18
North York, ON
·TekSavvy Solutions..
| reply to R0CKY
»www.speedtest.net/global.php?continent=4
Japan is the global leader in download and upload. With or without caps or throttling, they're have almost double the speed of any country.
»www.speedtest.net/global.php?con···untry=91
Most users in hong kong still only have DSL as you can see from the charts. However, city telecom is able to offer fibre-based services at an affordable price. That's the shocking difference. |
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mousonony
@cogentco.com | reply to R0CKY
Since things are getting just a bit off topic... any news Rocky???
We are nearing end of month!!! |
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Jaggie
join:2007-08-09
Mississauga, ON
·TekSavvy Solutions..
| reply to R0CKY
quote:
we should get a bit more info on the 30th of this month. Bell has called in all the ISP's to discus the new proposed user based billing system. I will be sure to bring this up at this conference.
Probably hear something about whats going on in the next few days |
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j3richo
join:2007-12-08
Gatineau, QC | reply to R0CKY
so did the meeting happen yet? what's the latest? |
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jyeung
inspiration reality
Premium
join:2004-03-30
North York, ON
·Cybersurf Corporat..
 ·3 Web
·Bell Sympatico
·TELUS
| reply to xdrag
said by xdrag :» www.speedtest.net/global.php?continent=4Japan is the global leader in download and upload. With or without caps or throttling, they're have almost double the speed of any country. » www.speedtest.net/global.php?con···untry=91Most users in hong kong still only have DSL as you can see from the charts. However, city telecom is able to offer fibre-based services at an affordable price. That's the shocking difference. Indeed - and the other providers aren't falling behind.
HK i-Cable has a 8Mbps broadband cable access service (a bit slow at times I find)
PCCW Netvigator has their standard 3Mbps and 6Mbps DSL services, but they have a 1000Mbps one and I think a 100Mbps offering now as well.
HKBN (City Telecom) has their 25Mbps, 100Mbps, 1000Mbps services through their fibre optic network.
I think Hutchison has a gigabit offering as well.
Hong Kong was a case of a competitive carrier beating the local incumbent PCCW. The incumbent carrier isn't doing nothing about it, however. Unfortunately, Canada lacks this sort of competition.
- Jason |
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R0CKY
TSI Rocky
Premium,VIP
join:2005-05-19
Chatham, ON
| I'm currently out of town so I wasn't able to make Bell's sales effort on the capped DSL idea they intend to try and push on us but Paul from Acanac was able to make it and as identified at the beginning of this thread Bell delivered on the BS ( »Acanac ).
Rocky
--
TSI Rocky - TekSavvy Solutions Inc. |
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mr_hexen
join:2007-08-02
Brampton, ON | wow, 512kbps 2GB, 5mbps 60GB.
they are forgetting wholesalers are not resellers of symcrapico.
Ridiculous. |
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mazhurg
Premium
join:2004-05-02
Portage La Prairie, MB
·TekSavvy Solutions..
·MTS
| said by mr_hexen :wow, 512kbps 2GB, 5mbps 60GB. they are forgetting wholesalers are not resellers of symcrapico. Ridiculous. Don't think they are. I think that's the point. My guess is if the CRTC falls for that (they need approval to change tariffs no?) this will be the end of independent ISPs as of Jan 1st, at least on the DSL. |
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j3richo
join:2007-12-08
Gatineau, QC
1 edit | reply to R0CKY
this is unbelievable, there can be absolutely no doubt that they are trying to destroy wholesalers, they want to make us pay for the same exact garbage packages they offer with sympatico, there is no way this should be allowed to go through |
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laff at bell
@videotron.ca
| said by j3richo :this is unbelievable, there can be absolutely no doubt that they are trying to destroy wholesalers, They want all the wholesaler to be no better than them. hence less competitition, less loss.
Teksavvy/CAIP going to fight this or what? |
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Frozty2k
join:2002-04-21
Oakville, ON
·Cogeco Cable
·TekSavvy Solutions..
| reply to mr_hexen
said by mr_hexen :wow, 512kbps 2GB, 5mbps 60GB. they are forgetting wholesalers are not resellers of symcrapico. Ridiculous. So they want to Throttle AND have a cap? Should one or the other not take care of their "problems" ?
For the wholesalers, with throttling and caping, are they not providing less service ? Should they be able to charge the same amount per client when they have butchered the service a wholesaler can offer? |
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mr_hexen
join:2007-08-02
Brampton, ON
| said by Frozty2k :said by mr_hexen :wow, 512kbps 2GB, 5mbps 60GB. they are forgetting wholesalers are not resellers of symcrapico. Ridiculous. So they want to Throttle AND have a cap? Should one or the other not take care of their "problems" ? For the wholesalers, with throttling and caping, are they not providing less service ? Should they be able to charge the same amount per client when they have butchered the service a wholesaler can offer? depends on your definition of "problem".
they want every1 to think the problem is network capacity when infact the problem is tough competition from (better) ISPs such as teksavvy. |
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