Re: Details... in http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r20812234 en Tue, 01 Dec 2009 03:44:33 EDT Tue, 01 Dec 2009 03:44:33 EDT Re: Details... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20836252 DKS :
said by canucklehead :

FALSE. the provincial governments of alberta and BC poured billions of tax dollars into their infrastructures, then sold out to telus. i would assume bell was at one time a govt/crown operation as well. there is simply no way telus would exist today if they had to start from scratch. exactly when was AGT/BC tel/ EDtel pubically traded?. they were NEVER TRADED, just funded by the citizens via taxes (like CBC is now).
ALBERTA has a huge quasi govt network - SUPERNET - paid in part by my taxes, my dads taxes, my sons taxes. you really should pull you head out of your ass before typing, it just might help
No, you don't know the facts. This story is about BELL CANADA. It has not ever built infrastructure using government money. Telus is not part of this story. :uhh:
--
Need-based health care not greed-based health care.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20836252 Wed, 23 Jul 2008 12:04:49 EDT Re: Details... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20826858 tiger9 : With what, pray tell? Unless you go cable or DSL, infrastructure is HORRIBLY expensive. Fibre costs too MUCH to be practical. WiMAX Equipment is horribly expensive TOO - $$ for TONS of Base Stations, PLUS $$$ for fibre backhaul to Central Office. Plus, WiMAX is controlled by (guess what) Rogers and Bell TOO!

Let's face it - Rogers and Bell are FREAKING monopolies, that control consumer access to the internet using their monopolies' power.

Listen, American - Here in Ontario, the only MAIN ISPs are both rogers and bell. Rogers controls the Cable links, Bell controls the DSL links. This constitutes a MONOPOLY/DUOPOLY. There are also a bunch of small ISPs, using Bell's regulated, forced-to-share last mile, with their own backbone, forcibly bullied by Bell, using their monopolistic power, into using throttling, uncompetitive speeds and plans, and now forced caps. THIS CONSTITUTES A VIOLATION of CANADIAN ANTITRUST LAW ( Price Discrimination - Bell refuses to offer REGULATED 16Mbps links (previously) to DSL providers TO COMPETITORS, Abuse of Dominant Position + MARKET RESTRICTION ( Bell shoves down throttling and caps to other ISPs, EVEN UNDER REGULATED GAS, which cannot do a s*** about it because BELL owns ALL DSL LINES. BELL ALSO PREFENTIALLY PUTS SYMPATICO CUSTOMERS ON DSL REMOTES, RESTRICTING THE MARKET TO COMPETING DSL ISPS to the 5km radius around a CO. (e.g teksavvy customers do not get on to a remote unless they call to Bell). They also restrict DSL access to "unwanted consumers", by refusing them signup, even if they sign up to another DSL ISP (see Teksavvy forum) )

American, please know what you're talking about before you post. Its easy, sitting in Toledo, with uncapped cable service, to criticize us Canucks (hint) with c$ap for internet. Its also easy to criticize us when we try to fix it. Its also easy to criticize us when you know nothing about the ISSUE.

Please learn, by moving to CANADA (hint,hint), before talking about how our Internet providers, AMERICAN.

THANK YOU.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20826858 Mon, 21 Jul 2008 17:52:32 EDT Re: Details... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20825128 anon : Quote from Bell Wholesale DSL Gateway Access Service (GAS) sales pamphlet:

"80 percent of Canada’s Internet traffic is on our network."

»www.wholesale.bell.ca/pdfs/GASDSL.pdf]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20825128 Mon, 21 Jul 2008 13:07:47 EDT Re: Details... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20823782 Malovech : And why do you have those options? Because your government has mandated competition amongst your ISPs. Sure you still have jerks like Comcast and AT&T that want too much of the pie, but it isn't anywhere near as bad as the Bell/Rogers/Telus stranglehold.

It is also ridiculous to assume that every company under the sun will have unfettered access to the public infrastructure. If we followed your model, then there would be masses of cable laid on top of cable, networking appliances clustered in an unwieldy mess and then you would have a logistics nightmare for technicians (not to mention the guerrilla warfare between companies screwing with each others' gear).

What our government should do, is take back the last-mile infrastructure, maintain and license it. Replace it all with fibre and then everyone is on an even playing field. If they don't want to deal with maintenance they could even subcontract that out, but in the end, the public owns the lines.

Sure, a company could build a WISP as you say, but they would a) need access to the infrastructure first (not as easy as you'd think) and b) they shouldn't have to. It is unhealthy for innovation and the economy for a small number of companies to hold all the cards. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20823782 Mon, 21 Jul 2008 07:45:47 EDT Re: Details... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20821613 hottboiinnc : I actually work for a large company. The largest Home Improvement Store in the world. The Home Depot.

And it is possible to build a WISP for an entire city. It's done all the time.

But why should i waste my time and money? i'm fully covered with Internet. I don't need wireless. I have my option between cable and DSL. And use cable. Other wise i have EVDO-RevA by Sprint, or GSM by ATT and T-Mobile or EVDO by VZW.

Here we actually require companies to build out if they want to offer services to compete if the Telco's don't want to allow them to use the copper. Canada should as well.

There are many people on this site every day building out city wide WISPs; just the people on this news story about Bell do not think its possible because they don't like Bell.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20821613 Sun, 20 Jul 2008 18:43:32 EDT Re: Details... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20821595 hottboiinnc : It means ONE. NOT TWO. In Bell area there are TWO!. Rogers and Bell!

Which mean there is not a monopoly. You can't have a monopoly when there are TWO companies providing the same services. Just because one is copper and DSL and the other is HFC and Cable modem doesnt mean anything.

They both offer services that are in each others coverage areas.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20821595 Sun, 20 Jul 2008 18:38:55 EDT Re: Details... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20821584 hottboiinnc : wearing the flag doesnt mean anything.

What Bell is doing should be legal. If someone else wants to compete agains them tell them to start building out some wireless network. If they can't or won't do it then tuff luck.

And actually i don't like bush. Sorry. I'm a dem.- but that doesnt have anything to do with this.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20821584 Sun, 20 Jul 2008 18:37:20 EDT Re: Details... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20821486 anon : FALSE. the provincial governments of alberta and BC poured billions of tax dollars into their infrastructures, then sold out to telus. i would assume bell was at one time a govt/crown operation as well. there is simply no way telus would exist today if they had to start from scratch. exactly when was AGT/BC tel/ EDtel pubically traded?. they were NEVER TRADED, just funded by the citizens via taxes (like CBC is now).
ALBERTA has a huge quasi govt network - SUPERNET - paid in part by my taxes, my dads taxes, my sons taxes. you really should pull you head out of your ass before typing, it just might help]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20821486 Sun, 20 Jul 2008 18:12:02 EDT Re: Details... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20819604 anon : Dude, who the hell are you to tell Canadians what they do and don't know. Take your American attitude and go play with your friend Bush south of our border. It's people like you that make Americans look egotistical, arrogant and self grandizing to the rest of the world, thus causing the U.S. to be the most hated country in the world. At least I can wear my Canadian flag in many trouble countries and get treated like royalty, and not be killed. Can you say the same for the American flag? I highly doubt it, because of Americans like you that give your country a bad name.

Cheers to Rocky and his fight!!!!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20819604 Sun, 20 Jul 2008 08:35:58 EDT Re: Details... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20819605 DKS :
said by pfak See Profile :

You do realize that Bell Canada's network was paid for by the gov't, right?

Why is it acceptable for Bell to have a free ride, but not allow others on the governments network even though they're paying for the service?
That is nonsense. None of Canada's (or Rogers, for that matter) networks have been publicly funded. Both are publicly traded corporations.

And the only "government" network is DNET, which is run by the Canadian Forces. And you ain't going anywhere near that, ever.
--
Need-based health care not greed-based health care.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20819605 Sun, 20 Jul 2008 08:32:29 EDT Re: Details... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20817827 alphaz18 : mr highhorse. i have a proposal. if you can build a wisp for a single city. do it. if its so simple as you claim. if you do, i will forever change my views and will bow down to your mentality aknowledging that your views are indeed correct. But until you do or can, dont just bark your mouth off just becuase you think you work at a big company or whatever. hows this, imagine the company you work at goes under, because some random guy decided to do stupid stuff like sue them for some random patent trolling and sued your company until bankrupcy.. what would you think? oh too bad? my company was stupid for not killing the guy first? are you going to wish the law is suppose to protect the company in these circumstances? it works both ways, just becuase you're at the top right now doesn't mean you should be able to do anything you want and get away with it, becuase what goes around comes around.. eventually you'll just get screwed the same way you screwed others as the big guy. and then you'll be wishing the gvn't or the law comes to save you. or what? you dont care, you'll just take up "arms" and kill whoever opposes you? what if they think the same way and kills you first? too bad? is that how you think?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20817827 Sat, 19 Jul 2008 19:08:50 EDT Re: Details... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20817611 adisor19 :
said by hottboiinnc See Profile :

well here is an idea- DON"T OFFER DSL OR CABLE! You won't have to use them. Also what about Sprint Canada, Teleglobe, Cogent.

They all offer backbone access. You can easily toss their backbone services behind a network and start with a WISP and start to build out.

The more you build out slowly the better off the ISP is to get away from the provider who has the network others want.
Again, what the hell are you smoking ?! YES YOU DO HAVE TO USE THEM AND THEIR LINES. No compamy out there built their copper infrastructure with their own $$$. The government gave it to them as they were a monopoly and as such, they have to play by some rules like : share the copper lines with other companies.

Seriously, is someone paying to spew such corporate crap on these boards ?!!

Adi]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20817611 Sat, 19 Jul 2008 18:10:01 EDT Re: Details... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20817602 adisor19 :
said by hottboiinnc See Profile :

They're not a monopoly because they have competition. Rogers and Bell both compete against each other. Both offer TV, Internet, and Phone.
Look up the word "monopoly" on Wikipedia or your favorite dictionary.

Bell and Rogers are freaking MONOPOLYS.

Adi]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20817602 Sat, 19 Jul 2008 18:07:04 EDT Re: Details... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20817228 espaeth :
said by Capharnaum See Profile :

If they bill by the byte though, then they shouldn't charge up front as well.
They're still going to need to have some fee, but it should be lower then their current base fee. This fee covers the cost of providing the head-end port, including the engineering staff, circuit maintenance, and opportunity cost of the line (ie, if you occupy a router port it can't be sold to someone else).]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20817228 Sat, 19 Jul 2008 16:27:46 EDT Re: Details... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20815918 hottboiinnc : the same way they do about the US.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20815918 Sat, 19 Jul 2008 10:49:59 EDT Re: Details... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20815855 hottboiinnc : well here is an idea- DON"T OFFER DSL OR CABLE! You won't have to use them. Also what about Sprint Canada, Teleglobe, Cogent.

They all offer backbone access. You can easily toss their backbone services behind a network and start with a WISP and start to build out.

The more you build out slowly the better off the ISP is to get away from the provider who has the network others want.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20815855 Sat, 19 Jul 2008 10:26:13 EDT Re: Details... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20815618 anon : Bell and rogers used to compete against each other. Now you can add telus to that list. The three companies got smart and all got together and worked things out. Now all three collude for the purpose of extracting the most money from the Canadian public for the least amount of service.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20815618 Sat, 19 Jul 2008 08:47:26 EDT Re: Details... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20815607 tiger9 : Technically, while Bell does NOT have an internet monopoly, IT DOES HAVE A FREAKING PHONE LINE MONOPOLY/DSL LINE MONOPOLY. EVERY FREAKING ISP THAT RUNS OVER DSL MUST USE BELL! ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20815607 Sat, 19 Jul 2008 08:41:51 EDT Re: Details... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20815604 anon : But you just recently lost your binary newsgroups so everything that happened in Ontario will happen to you only 3 years later.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20815604 Sat, 19 Jul 2008 08:40:37 EDT Re: Details... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20815598 anon : Give them Hell Rocky...

This is some info to add for the misinformed...

When Rogers wanted to get into the phone business back in the 1990's the CRTC said (simplified version for the sake of brevity) "let's see what Bell says"... Bell said "sure, but we want into the TV business".. They basically agreed at the behest of the CRTC..

Sounds fine, eh? Too bad Rogers had a number of years head start (handicap) to get their fledgling phone service off the ground before Bell was even allowed to enter the TV space.

This is Fredrick von Shitenstein and the other ivory tower no-minds at the CRTC creating dual-monopolies and protecting them from each other at the same time. The goal of the CRTC/govn't at the time was not to financially impact or cause massive sell-offs in the stock market of either Bell or Rogers' shares.

Rocky: You must face one fact; The CRTC is a country club filled with ex-monopoly (Bell/Rogers) employees.
The CRTC is just Bell and Rogers' publicly funded B$@#!@. see definition »www.urbandictionary.com/define.p···m=biatch
If you are the biggest Bell/Rogers corporate shill in history you get rewarded with a position at the CRTC. Because the CRTC (using circular logic) must fill its' ranks with experts and those all must work for Bell/Rogers in the eyes of the government.

Complicating this matter is Bell's (BCE) attempt to keep their profit projections strong enough to land the investment from the Teachers Pension Fund. Bell needs this investment or they could be in very serious trouble financially, yes I said they are in trouble. So the CRTC which is run by our fine Tory government are not about to let this happen, not in our lifetime.

And yes these are the same fine folks who allowed the sale of our forestry industry (too many to mention, but now just Weyerhaeuser), our steel industry (Stelco and Dofasco), our mining industry (Inco/Falconbridge), and of late apparently our highly govn't funded space industry.

Anything to make sure the monopolies stay strong and most important stay monopolies. The government doesn't care who makes our toilet paper, our car parts, our metals, or our space ships just as long as no-one else (other than our Tory government) tells us what to think. Telling Canadians what to think is the sole monopoly of the Canadian federal government.

They are (CRTC) far more concerned about foreign investment, I mean keeping foreign investment from swallowing us whole than they are about effecting the livelihood of a couple smaller companies. We do need to worry about the likes of SBC, Verizon, AT&T, etc.. in addition to our own domestic monopolies. All of the American telco's are freakin huge and their draconian business style does not bode well for our quasi-socialist ways here in Canada.

IMO Unless something was about to change for BCE (foreign investment) the Teachers Pension Plan wouldn't be seriously interested in a company that is so dependent on government hand-outs. These investors types do not like government involvement, it slows them down and gets in the way of them making money. Ergo, get ready for the announcement of a major portion of Bell being sold off to some big foreign entity. As likely from Europe or Asia as from the USA...

Oh that's right, the Teachers Pension Plan IS the vehicle for foreign investment in Bell while carefully side-stepping our current laws.

Aside from your micro-economical views ie. the plight and future of your business and its' employees.

Cogeco did it and so can you! They put in their own fiber and other required infrastructure, and wired customers right to the home. Even if they ran crap old PDP-11's in the beginning. Do the same as them buy up all of the old(er) telco gear you can find, start wiring and give them hell.

Cogeco Cable should be looked upon as the model for succeeding in the face of stiff opposition in Canada.

Shouldn't you guys be pissed off that Toronto Hydros' IP network is being sold to Cogeco? This is even more of the tax-payer's dollars hard at work. Muni-telecom was supposed to be the answer to thwart the Bell/Rogers monopoly. Now it seems "muni-telecom" was a clever way for other players (all cable co's) to get a finished working system without paying for all of the mistakes made during the projects' life cycle.

MONTREAL - Toronto Hydro Telecom Inc. is an under-utilized gem that will provide great growth opportunities for its new owner, Cogeco Cable Inc. (TSX:CCA) president Louis Audet said Thursday.

The Montreal-based cable company is buying the Toronto Hydro Corp. subsidiary for $200 million in a deal that will give Cogeco Cable an important foothold in the lucrative Toronto market.
Rocky I would suggest you partner with your local muni-fiber guys as they can and do/have run new infrastructure all over the place. Hydro has right of ways also, and they can be utilized for telecommunications infrastructure in addition to power as they have been doing for years.

Perhaps, you can partner with Cogeco the third head of the Hydra...

Rocky in all seriousness I applaud your determination and efforts on behalf of all of us. Regardless of what a bunch of mis-informed piss ants say..

I say hat's off to Rocky for having a spine. He must be a Canadian, eh?

L@tency]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20815598 Sat, 19 Jul 2008 08:39:34 EDT Re: Details... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20815515 BosstonesOwn :
said by hottboiinnc See Profile :

You don't need anything plugged on the ground if you do wireless like i said.

but then again why should you since you can go to the CRTC and cry that you need to lease their network because you can't build out wireless.
Just in case you can't read , Bell is one of the only sources for dumping data onto the internet in Canada. And in the US we have multiple providers for that.

If one had the intelligence to go and read through the canadian telecom rules , they don't own anything , they are getting it provided to them by the government. And the contact can come up for renewal. They can lose their rights to it. They didn't pay for the build out , Rocky as a canadian buddy , keep up the good fight man.
--
"It's always funny until someone gets hurt......and then it's absolutely friggin' hysterical!"]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20815515 Sat, 19 Jul 2008 07:58:59 EDT Re: Details... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20815165 myosh : Agreed 100%!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20815165 Sat, 19 Jul 2008 02:23:53 EDT Re: Details... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20815161 myosh : Big business is what is wrong with America. They don't give a crap about the consumer only about how to make as much money as possible no matter what the cost (destroying the environment, illegally eliminating competition, buying politicians, etc). Now looking at what Bell Canada is up to, it looks like this mentality has spread to our northern neighbors. I guarantee you if AT&T were to pull something like this, there'd be an uproar here too. Unfortunately, Congress has already been bought by AT&T.

Oh and a word of advice, I wouldn't go around saying you support big business here or you will be labeled a corporate shill.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20815161 Sat, 19 Jul 2008 02:21:52 EDT Re: Details... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20815144 jubangy : Doubtful that a bell anything would come up with a reasonable base fee or a usage charge. Probaly would still charge between $30 and $40 which people are paying now and then add to it the usage. Either way anyone looks at it the bells are going to get their double dipping wish someday.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20815144 Sat, 19 Jul 2008 02:09:06 EDT Re: Details... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20815127 jubangy : 1. From what the people are saying that actually live in canada Bell basically got handouts to build the network.

2. The Government apparently stepped in to help bell.

3. Your stance is kind of screwed, if big business keeps winning and there are no more little guys, guess what? Everyones prices are pretty much going to be whatever they want them to be, so maybe when the price squeeze gets put on you then maybe you will understand more of what you spew.

4. How is someone who does not even live in canada gonna preach how things should or should not be there?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20815127 Sat, 19 Jul 2008 02:00:28 EDT Re: Details... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20815007 pfak : You do realize that Bell Canada's network was paid for by the gov't, right?

Why is it acceptable for Bell to have a free ride, but not allow others on the governments network even though they're paying for the service?
--
Xenophase - British Columbia's premier online gaming community.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20815007 Sat, 19 Jul 2008 00:55:12 EDT Re: Details... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20814865 hottboiinnc : Like i said before take your ass over the WISP board and learn something for once instead of sitting on your ass fighting with me. Moto Canopy has interference built in.

But you would know this if you read what i said before.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20814865 Sat, 19 Jul 2008 00:03:49 EDT Re: Details... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20814862 hottboiinnc : I did not say buy any spectrum. But Rocky can start to build out his network instead of watching on the Gov't to decide what they're going to do.

instead he's on here saying what he wants done with Bell along with everyone else.

He should be building out a new network to stay afloat especially if Bell charges him on bandwidth next.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20814862 Sat, 19 Jul 2008 00:02:19 EDT Re: Details... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20814843 hottboiinnc : no they shouldnt be regulated again. It's not bell's fault that nobody else can offer a product. They're given the chance. They just can't. The Gov't shouldnt step in and say "oh okay we'll give you this Joe because someone on DSLReports says Bell needs competition".

FREE Enterprise.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20814843 Fri, 18 Jul 2008 23:57:51 EDT Re: Details... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20814832 hottboiinnc : They're not a monopoly because they have competition. Rogers and Bell both compete against each other. Both offer TV, Internet, and Phone.

Want anything better?

Also have you heard of a such thing as a Loan? Go check out the WISP board on here. Many people are building out without the figure that was stated of what? $5,000,000!

besides if you're a real business you would have a back up plan figured in your business plan. But sounds like who ever gave Rocky his loan (if he got one) didnt bother to factor that in.

If you don't like the what I have to say to damn bad. I support big business. If the little guy can't compete get the hell out of the way cause the Big Corp. is gonna steam roll them out of the way.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20814832 Fri, 18 Jul 2008 23:56:13 EDT Re: Details... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20814804 hottboiinnc : yes it is possible for TekSavvy to build their own WISP out. They just don't want to like it or not they just want to leach off Bell because Gov't says they can.

And they don't seem to be as small as you make them out to be.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20814804 Fri, 18 Jul 2008 23:51:24 EDT Re: Details... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20814575 anon : Ok, yes, in total, nearly 2 million active ports. But not all of it brings in the figure you quoted. GAS rates are a fraction of the cost of the retail product which is $47.99. And not everyone is on a total plan. Many a client are getting 3-5Mbps sync for total cost of about $30 a month, with between 60GB (sympatico contract/retention) and 200GB (TSI, etc.).

If it was base + usage, I think everyone but the small minority of large P2P downloaders would be better off. Plus IPTV over the GAS product was never going to work... totally unsustainable for the ILEC. It would throw contention ratios out of whack and generate a huge load for no extra money (unless their is usage based billing).]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20814575 Fri, 18 Jul 2008 22:56:21 EDT Re: Details... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20814265 anon : That is quite possibly the dumbest thing I've read all week.
Supposing that it's feasible these small ISP to set up their own WISP infrastructure (it's not), you wouldn't even be providing the same product since WISP is aimed at different market with different needs, uses, and expectations. If Bell owned roads and made all the taxi companies to pay exorbitant amount of money, you wouldn't tell these taxi companies to start an airline. Both modes of transportation, sure, but aimed at very different markets.
Please think a bit more before writing.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20814265 Fri, 18 Jul 2008 21:42:53 EDT Re: Details... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20814055 adisor19 :
said by hottboiinnc See Profile :

have you heard of Moto Canopy? Who says anything abou buying spectrum. I know i didnt.

But yah let the CTRC fine Bell and watch them raise rates and you and the rest of their customers can pay for it.
Are you out of your mind ?! What BACKBONE are you going to use for your miraculous HYPERBANDWITH network ? Oh wait, Bell has a monopoly on that too so you're still f*****. Way to go. The Wifi frequencies in urban environments are absolutely CHOCK FULL to begin with.

WISPs are only viable in RURAL market where 1) there is no competition and most importantly 2) The WIFI frequencies are EMPTY to begin with.

Adi]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20814055 Fri, 18 Jul 2008 20:42:01 EDT Re: Details... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20814042 adisor19 :
said by hottboiinnc See Profile :

Bell is not a monopoly. They have Rogers to compete against and other companies.

Again- if the ISPs can't compete and build something else out get out of the way and let Bell do what they do- service the customer.
Ok enough with the BS. I don't care of i get banned for this but someone has to say it : YOU'RE AN IDIOT !!!

Bell IS a monopoly ! There own each and every freakin copper line to and from their CO. Oh, yeah, it's THEIR CO as well. How the hell is that NOT a monopoly ??!

Rogers is a monopoly as well ! They own in every single cable drop to your house if you live in thier area. There is no choice if you want another cable provider. There's only ROGERS. How is that not a monopoly ?!

Also, DO YOU KNOW WHO PAID THESE MONOPOLIES FOR THEIR NETOWRK ? It's the government and the freakin consumers !! That's the reason why they HAVE to share their networks, cause they were built with our hard earned $$$ and because it's IMPOSSIBLE for a newcomer to build such a network due to financial reasons.

Jesus Christ, relax already with the "go become a WISP" or "build your own network". Ya ok, get me the money that the goverment gave Bell and i'll build my network too !

Adi

/END RANT]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20814042 Fri, 18 Jul 2008 20:38:16 EDT Re: Details... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20813966 hottboiinnc : have you heard of Moto Canopy? Who says anything abou buying spectrum. I know i didnt.

But yah let the CTRC fine Bell and watch them raise rates and you and the rest of their customers can pay for it.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20813966 Fri, 18 Jul 2008 20:21:37 EDT Re: Details... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20813952 hottboiinnc : Again I did not say anything about laying cable.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20813952 Fri, 18 Jul 2008 20:18:27 EDT Re: Details... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20813941 hottboiinnc : Bell is not a monopoly. They have Rogers to compete against and other companies.

Again- if the ISPs can't compete and build something else out get out of the way and let Bell do what they do- service the customer.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20813941 Fri, 18 Jul 2008 20:16:19 EDT Re: Details... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20813793 hottboiinnc : My rights? HA! We don't have this problem in the USA. We actually have the dereg which doesnt require the ILECs to share. So its either sink or swim.

It seems that you don't make a very good businessman though. Rule #2 - if a supplier screws you;-you don't keep going back to them. You find a way to keep your business going without them-hence finding another way to deliver your product -ie: Wireless Internet become a WISP instead of a DSL provider.

You're business would be screwed here in the US if you depended on the Bells. Also i don't see how you consider them a monopoly. They're not keeping you from having your business. ISPs lobbied your government to allow you in. You should be glad they did. Also you should be working on having your own network and start saying you are instead of "fighting". But in the long run Bell will win one way or another.

And also I'm not attacking you - i'm simply stating the facts. If you can't compete as a business man against a large company I suggest you get out while the goings getting good and sell your company to someone else that can handle it. And then go talk to The Home Depot up there and learn how to stand up to your vendors/suppliers- its not about getting someone else involved to get what you want done its about putting them in their place without laws that are not needed.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20813793 Fri, 18 Jul 2008 19:49:27 EDT Re: Details... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20813545 Capharnaum : If they bill by the byte though, then they shouldn't charge up front as well. Plus, they should charge competitive market prices, which is lower than their up front actual fee.

I don't see it happening. I think they'll try to double dip.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20813545 Fri, 18 Jul 2008 18:57:42 EDT Re: Details... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20813527 Capharnaum : If all the competition quits, then Bell should be regulated again. Isn't that a nice prospect?

It seems a bit strange that a guy like you would advocate for regulation instead of competition.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20813527 Fri, 18 Jul 2008 18:53:29 EDT Re: Details... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20813445 Capharnaum : Bell was given a monopoly in Canada, and then they wanted to get out of that regulation and start charging what they wanted. The problem is that they wouldn't have competition and the legislated era had them build their network with insured profits while passing off all costs to the customers, who had no choice but to go with them (since they're a monopoly).

So the only way they could get out of the regulation was to allow access at a fair price to other companies so that there was competition for the different services. The part where they have to provide a certain level of service to competitors is regulated to ensure competition.

Now Bell is trying to thwart competition using these avenues since they can't compete with them as they are an unneffective, innefficient company that customers are fleeing from. Basically, they're trying to force customers to be with them with underhanded moves because they can't keep their customers through satisfaction.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20813445 Fri, 18 Jul 2008 18:36:35 EDT Re: Details... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20813405 st7860 :
said by hottboiinnc See Profile :

ISPs there need to do what they do here; Build out their own networks.

Just because its legal for you to use their networks you shouldnt rely on them for your business. Start building out yours and show them up.

Why cry about it? when they go and do the usage based system what are you going to do? cry about that too?

You're a business looking to make profit. They're a business looking to make profit. And Bell owns one thing you both want. The wiring between the CO and the customers homes and businesses. Stop using the wire.

It has been showen here the ILECs will crush you no matter how they spin it. Next they'll drop their price rates and go after you that way.

and hydro and gas are not communication needs. Actually people lived before they were even around.

Also Net Neutrality was never about keeping the networks so they'd be wholesaled. They were about making content on them equal. You are crying about something that does not even fit the def. about what it was meant to be.

Start being a company and build out your own network or just get out of the way.
i hereby and solemnly declare +1

furthermore, out in BC, i use an ADSL company called telus, where I get a 6m down 1m up line and i don't get charged if i go over 200 gigabytes, and I dont have to pay $10 for 'bundles' of extra gigabytes, AND, don't have to enter a password to access the internet, but with most of the competitors, you do have to enter a password to access the internet, even if you're using ADSL.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20813405 Fri, 18 Jul 2008 18:30:06 EDT Re: Details... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20813370 KrK : On Second thought, I realized it was an utter waste of my time to respond to this.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20813370 Fri, 18 Jul 2008 18:23:17 EDT Re: Details... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20813139 adisor19 :
said by hottboiinnc See Profile :

Wireless. You don't need that much to build out a wireless network.

Besides his business plan should have had this in it. If you can't compete get the hell out of the market.

yah i was raised in retail and work it. I believe in that saying. I worked for the 2nd largest home improvement company in the world and work for the largest. They all live by it. Be the biggest and the best you can at the cost of everyone else. If you can be bigger and better do it. Don't it back and watch and wine and cry about it. You're taught to get off your ass and keep your customer base.

and not be like WM and cry about shit and get laws passed to protect you.
Are you out of your mind ?! Who's gonna pay for the spectrum ? Do you even know how much BANDWIDTH is needed to run any kind of decent ISP Wireless operation ?! Take a look at Look.ca/Project Inukshuk. Look almost went UNDER cause of the amount of debt they owed after purchasing the spectrum. And BCE forced them to sell a major part of it to themselves and to Robbers.

Wireless spectrum is nonexistent this day an age. The current auction for 2.1Ghz/1.7Ghz spectrum in Canada is at 4.2 BILLION dollars ! Noone in their freakin mind will buy that to start an ISP cause you can't make money like that. Starting a GSM network on the other hand = profit.

Anyways, Bell is a MONOPOLY and as such, they have to abide by certain rules. Right now they are NOT and i hope the CRTC will do the right thing and stop them, and FINE them as well.

Adi]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20813139 Fri, 18 Jul 2008 17:33:14 EDT Re: Details... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20813130 Rastan : Charity case? Are you kidding? Bell is raking it in large. They have roughly 2 Million DSL customers and they charge $47.99/month for a high speed connection. Their customers are already overpaying for their substandard service.

The reality is that telcos are trying to convince everyone that there's a bandwidth crisis. They see an opportunity to make even more money by charging for bandwidth and coming up with other various tiered services. It's just a cash grab.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20813130 Fri, 18 Jul 2008 17:31:54 EDT Re: Details... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20813103 adisor19 :
said by R0CKY See Profile :

said by hottboiinnc See Profile :

You don't need anything plugged on the ground if you do wireless like i said.

but then again why should you since you can go to the CRTC and cry that you need to lease their network because you can't build out wireless.
Who's to say we're not doing something else? I'm talking about this particular service being serviced by a particular supplier.

Because I'm not allowing someone to be a bully makes me a whiner? I don't think so... To boot, if you looked me up you'd quickly realise I'm one of the few who are very much active in fighting for your rights! So, unless you can tell me you're also standing up to fight for your/our rights, instead of arguing for the sake of arguing, I'd consider keeping the attacks on the down-low.

I'm done here.

Rocky
Don't bother feeding the troll Rocky. This guy obviously has no idea of what he's talking about and as you realised, he's only trying to insult you.

I for one can't wait to see what the CRTC's response to this BS move by Bell will be.

Keep up the good fight and let's hope this country won't become ruled by corporations like in the USA.

Adi]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20813103 Fri, 18 Jul 2008 17:27:14 EDT Re: Details... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20812925 XoX : I think you don't get it... The network Bell has right was built because they where a monopoly. When the whole phone thing started in Canada after a few years we had thousand of company a few year and few deal later between Bell and the government in charge they became a monopoly. For almost 100 years they where almost the only one to exist in most of Quebec and Ontario. So for all those year the pocketed our money built a good part of the network they use now and also got lots of money to expand and upgrade.

Now that thing are started to change and allow again more player in the field they again don't want to play nice and they are again trying to kill the competition like in the past. The only trouble is they should not be allow because the network they have, without the money the got from being a monopoly for all those years the would not have it.

Also even if Teksavvy wanted to lay all new cable it won't go has easy like Bell had it and would cost them a lot more from their pocket (not our pocket like it was with Bell). That's if they can lay new cable because it's everyone that can do it.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20812925 Fri, 18 Jul 2008 16:47:51 EDT Re: Details... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20812904 ptrowski :
said by TKJunkMail See Profile :

said by ptrowski See Profile :

If it was easy to span a few thousand square miles as a WISP then everyone would do it.
90% of the Canadian populace lives within the major metro areas just north of the US border. You don't need WISPs that span thousands of square miles. As a business not required to sell to the entire populace(unlike Bell) you can make a very good profitable business plan selling only to those metro areas.
Very true, but he was talking about doing that to get around Bell's schemes. I would assume that if it was again as easy as Mr. OH stated there it would be done already.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20812904 Fri, 18 Jul 2008 16:43:09 EDT Re: Details... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20812887 espaeth :
said by twizlar See Profile :

We're talking about Bell here, not tier 1 or 2 bulk bandwidth providers, I would imagine they will charge $0.50-$1 per GB
I would agree that would be excessive if those were the numbers, but we don't know that yet.

My issue with this whole deal is that people are taking exception to the idea of usage-based billing for ISPs, as no rates have even been floated thusfar. That's how it works for upstream circuits to the carriers and that's how all of the hosting companies bill, so why should broadband providers become a charity case?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20812887 Fri, 18 Jul 2008 16:38:35 EDT Re: Details... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20812881 TKJunkMail :
said by ptrowski See Profile :

If it was easy to span a few thousand square miles as a WISP then everyone would do it.
90% of the Canadian populace lives within the major metro areas just north of the US border. You don't need WISPs that span thousands of square miles. As a business not required to sell to the entire populace(unlike Bell) you can make a very good profitable business plan selling only to those metro areas.
--
My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page
Ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20812881 Fri, 18 Jul 2008 16:36:54 EDT Re: Details... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20812753 ptrowski :
said by hottboiinnc See Profile :

Nope. But they should have thought about that before.

You never rely on another business as your ONLY supplier between you and the customer.

Thats just stupid and i don't blame the Bell for doing what they're.

They should go out and start building their wireless network if they want to stay alive other wise face whats going to come to them at some point- their network will be killed.
The US and Canada have different rules to play by. If it was easy to span a few thousand square miles as a WISP then everyone would do it.

Think before you post.....]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20812753 Fri, 18 Jul 2008 16:11:30 EDT Re: Details... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20812739 twizlar : We're talking about Bell here, not tier 1 or 2 bulk bandwidth providers, I would imagine they will charge $0.50-$1 per GB
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Broadline Networks Inc.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20812739 Fri, 18 Jul 2008 16:10:11 EDT Re: Details... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20812688 espaeth :
said by twizlar See Profile :

By the Byte billing != 95th percentile or flatrate billing. which is how 99% of the ISP's pay for bandwidth.
Normally quantity-based billing works out better for the subscriber. Any hosting provider that doles out 1000 or 1500GB/mo for usage will tell you that there's always a customer or two who waits until the last day or two of the month to move 100-300GB. Technically they stay under their BW quota, but it can throw off the hosting provider's 95th percentile numbers with their upstream carriers.

Unless the pricing is really out of whack, (port + quantity usage) should bill lower than (port + 95th percentile rate) in the vast majority of cases.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20812688 Fri, 18 Jul 2008 16:01:13 EDT Re: Details... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20812646 R0CKY :
said by hottboiinnc See Profile :

You don't need anything plugged on the ground if you do wireless like i said.

but then again why should you since you can go to the CRTC and cry that you need to lease their network because you can't build out wireless.
Who's to say we're not doing something else? I'm talking about this particular service being serviced by a particular supplier.

Because I'm not allowing someone to be a bully makes me a whiner? I don't think so... To boot, if you looked me up you'd quickly realise I'm one of the few who are very much active in fighting for your rights! So, unless you can tell me you're also standing up to fight for your/our rights, instead of arguing for the sake of arguing, I'd consider keeping the attacks on the down-low.

I'm done here.

Rocky
--
TSI Rocky - TekSavvy Solutions Inc.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20812646 Fri, 18 Jul 2008 15:51:02 EDT Re: Details... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20812604 hottboiinnc : Nope. But they should have thought about that before.

You never rely on another business as your ONLY supplier between you and the customer.

Thats just stupid and i don't blame the Bell for doing what they're.

They should go out and start building their wireless network if they want to stay alive other wise face whats going to come to them at some point- their network will be killed.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20812604 Fri, 18 Jul 2008 15:43:02 EDT Re: Details... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20812594 hottboiinnc : You don't need anything plugged on the ground if you do wireless like i said.

but then again why should you since you can go to the CRTC and cry that you need to lease their network because you can't build out wireless.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20812594 Fri, 18 Jul 2008 15:41:26 EDT Re: Details... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20812538 Semaphore : Do You own a Wide Area Wireless Network that spans a few thousand square miles ?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20812538 Fri, 18 Jul 2008 15:28:19 EDT Re: Details... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20812461 R0CKY :
said by hottboiinnc See Profile :

ISPs there need to do what they do here; Build out their own networks.

Just because its legal for you to use their networks you shouldnt rely on them for your business. Start building out yours and show them up.

Why cry about it? when they go and do the usage based system what are you going to do? cry about that too?

You're a business looking to make profit. They're a business looking to make profit. And Bell owns one thing you both want. The wiring between the CO and the customers homes and businesses. Stop using the wire.

It has been showen here the ILECs will crush you no matter how they spin it. Next they'll drop their price rates and go after you that way.

and hydro and gas are not communication needs. Actually people lived before they were even around.

Also Net Neutrality was never about keeping the networks so they'd be wholesaled. They were about making content on them equal. You are crying about something that does not even fit the def. about what it was meant to be.

Start being a company and build out your own network or just get out of the way.
Huh? The Canadian market isn't at all like the US guys.... In Bell Territory (and I say Bell Territory for a good reason), we have no choice but to use them in the ground, so even using our own equipment as you say, we'd still have to go through them to finish the job. This is why it's called a monopoly.

I never said hydro and gas were communication needs.

In any case, we have a standardized structure in Canada that allows a standard network format (one good part from the Government), but what we don't have is a standard agreement on how we all play together to make this work.

Lastly, it's not Bell's network technically as they've been given rights to a space with the condition they shared it. If they no longer wish to honour their monopoly responsibilities, then lets have it taken away and auction/sell the rights to someone who wants to take the responsibility for it.

Rocky
--
TSI Rocky - TekSavvy Solutions Inc.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20812461 Fri, 18 Jul 2008 15:11:18 EDT Re: Details... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20812404 hottboiinnc : Wireless. You don't need that much to build out a wireless network.

Besides his business plan should have had this in it. If you can't compete get the hell out of the market.

yah i was raised in retail and work it. I believe in that saying. I worked for the 2nd largest home improvement company in the world and work for the largest. They all live by it. Be the biggest and the best you can at the cost of everyone else. If you can be bigger and better do it. Don't it back and watch and wine and cry about it. You're taught to get off your ass and keep your customer base.

and not be like WM and cry about shit and get laws passed to protect you.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20812404 Fri, 18 Jul 2008 14:58:13 EDT Re: Details... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20812393 hottboiinnc : ISPs there need to do what they do here; Build out their own networks.

Just because its legal for you to use their networks you shouldnt rely on them for your business. Start building out yours and show them up.

Why cry about it? when they go and do the usage based system what are you going to do? cry about that too?

You're a business looking to make profit. They're a business looking to make profit. And Bell owns one thing you both want. The wiring between the CO and the customers homes and businesses. Stop using the wire.

It has been showen here the ILECs will crush you no matter how they spin it. Next they'll drop their price rates and go after you that way.

and hydro and gas are not communication needs. Actually people lived before they were even around.

Also Net Neutrality was never about keeping the networks so they'd be wholesaled. They were about making content on them equal. You are crying about something that does not even fit the def. about what it was meant to be.

Start being a company and build out your own network or just get out of the way.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20812393 Fri, 18 Jul 2008 14:56:20 EDT Re: Details... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20812378 lordofwhee :
said by hottboiinnc See Profile :

They're are many things he can do instead of sitting there or fighting with Bell in court. And if he doesnt fight back by offering his own product without them well then if he goes out of business, lays people off (firing them) or raising rates then i see that it would be his fault then.
Hey, if you have ~$5,000,000 USD laying around, why not give it to him so he can start on that network, eh?

Building a new network is one of the major barriers to entry in the ISP market, which is why Canada required wholesaling (peeps in the US don't get this luxury). And that's just one of them.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20812378 Fri, 18 Jul 2008 14:53:48 EDT Re: Details... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20812348 hottboiinnc : build out his own network? maybe wireless?

just because wholesaling is required in Canada does not mean you can make a business off it for such as long time. Someone is going to get tired of it and put a stop to it, and Bell is doing just that.

They should end their agreement with Bell but before start building out a wireless network. get apartment/condo complexes into turning their property into a "smart" property and doing DSL over his own dslam at the locations.

They're are many things he can do instead of sitting there or fighting with Bell in court. And if he doesnt fight back by offering his own product without them well then if he goes out of business, lays people off (firing them) or raising rates then i see that it would be his fault then.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20812348 Fri, 18 Jul 2008 14:46:50 EDT Re: Details... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20812346 R0CKY :
said by MysticGogeta See Profile :

Well what else is there left to do sit around and let them screw them out of any profits and crush the company? He will be faced with either raising prices or laying off workers or perhaps both.
the unfortunate thing is it's irrelevant if TSI survives through this right now... What is very relevant is how our worlds, techie or not, are about to get very impacted financially.

People need communication, hydro, gas, etc., services just as much as they need to air and water right now, so all those who control these mechanisms are in a powerful situation. This is why I, and others, went to Parliament Hill recently as we're fighting about something much bigger than all of us in the end..... The major difference with Bell/Rogers in this case is not only are they influencing our "internet air" but they also have the capability of impacting what we think and do, being tied so closely to the media and content.

Net Neutrality principals and concerns are far reaching as Corporate Greed has a very really opportunity to turn us all into virtual lab rats..... (booooo!) :huh:

Rocky
--
TSI Rocky - TekSavvy Solutions Inc.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20812346 Fri, 18 Jul 2008 14:46:28 EDT Re: Details... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20812330 twizlar : By the Byte billing != 95th percentile or flatrate billing. which is how 99% of the ISP's pay for bandwidth.
--
Broadline Networks Inc.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20812330 Fri, 18 Jul 2008 14:40:13 EDT Re: Details... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20812308 MysticGogeta : Well what else is there left to do sit around and let them screw them out of any profits and crush the company? He will be faced with either raising prices or laying off workers or perhaps both.
--
Team Discovery-Join the fight]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20812308 Fri, 18 Jul 2008 14:35:50 EDT Re: Details... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20812291 espaeth :
said by R0CKY See Profile :

Looking forward to the details at the end of the month!
You're paying for port & commit on your upstream transit circuits -- what makes using the same approach on your transport links to the DSLAMs so evil?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20812291 Fri, 18 Jul 2008 14:31:31 EDT Re: Details... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20812235 hottboiinnc : and what let Bell win at the end because their pockets are basically unlimited compared to the ISPs?

Bell could drag it on and on and just put the ISPs out of business before any court could give an answer. Legal fees for ISPs aren't free. Bell's would be pretty well free sicne they're lawyers would be on staff.

I'm doubt TeckSavvy has a team of lawyers to sit around in their office for $50,000 plus for nothing when not needed except for answering the phones for tech support? seems like a high price to me that would be a waste.

Rocky's pockets are not unlimited like Bell's he wouldn't get much but a high ass legal bill.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20812235 Fri, 18 Jul 2008 14:18:17 EDT Re: Details... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20812234 mlerner :
said by MysticGogeta See Profile :

Sue? I don't know what else there is to do.
I never thought I'd say this but Rocky, sue them and get every penny you can. Someone has to teach them a lesson.
--
"If bullshit was money this guy would be richer that Bill Gates." - quote by olebiker on Mirko Bibic]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20812234 Fri, 18 Jul 2008 14:18:00 EDT Re: Details... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20812193 MysticGogeta : Sue? I don't know what else there is to do.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20812193 Fri, 18 Jul 2008 14:07:53 EDT Details... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20812103 R0CKY : Looking forward to the details at the end of the month!

Should be interesting....
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TSI Rocky - TekSavvy Solutions Inc.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20812103 Fri, 18 Jul 2008 13:46:27 EDT