Re: Need Help on idea of "Why is a router needed?" in General Questions http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r20821195 en Tue, 15 Dec 2009 04:05:18 EDT Tue, 15 Dec 2009 04:05:18 EDT Re: Need Help on idea of "Why is a router needed?" http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20833485 public :
said by tschmidt See Profile :

A side effect of NAT is that unless port forwarding is turned on (to run one or more servers) incoming connection requests are dropped because router does not know how to forward them. This provide a measure of additional security if computer(s) are misconfigured.

For a single computer with no active listing services (typically file and print sharing) NAT does not provide additional security.
NAT router provides the same security for any number of LAN hosts. Unsolicited packets from the WAN side are dropped, and cannot be used to attack even a single host on the LAN.
Recent DSL modems with line statistics can be configured as NAT routers.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20833485 Tue, 22 Jul 2008 20:53:00 EDT Re: Need Help on idea of "Why is a router needed?" http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20833249 CylonRed :
said by timcuth See Profile :

One thing everyone usually seems to forget is that most DSL modems are NAT routers. I have three PC's and a wireless access point connected via a simple ethernet switch to a little Motorola 2210 modem. I have previously done the same thing with a Westell 6100 and other DSL modems. No outside router component is needed because the modem's functions provide routing, NAT, and DHCP.

Tim
Depends on the modem - my Speedstream 5260 wasn't (although it was a 5660 and I could have hacked it to do that if I had wanted). I also have a Broadxent modem that I don't believe is a router as well.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20833249 Tue, 22 Jul 2008 20:00:42 EDT Re: Need Help on idea of "Why is a router needed?" http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20832908 broccoli :
said by timcuth See Profile :

One thing everyone usually seems to forget is that most DSL modems are NAT routers.
But you don't have to use their routing and NAT features (I have my DSL modem in bridge mode with routing disabled).

OTOH, if you know enough to configure things to work that way, you probably know the answer to the original question.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20832908 Tue, 22 Jul 2008 19:00:02 EDT Re: Need Help on idea of "Why is a router needed?" http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20832722 timcuth : One thing everyone usually seems to forget is that most DSL modems are NAT routers. I have three PC's and a wireless access point connected via a simple ethernet switch to a little Motorola 2210 modem. I have previously done the same thing with a Westell 6100 and other DSL modems. No outside router component is needed because the modem's functions provide routing, NAT, and DHCP.

Tim
--
"Life is like this long line, except at the end there ain't no merry-go-round." - Arthur on The King of Queens
~ Project Hope ~ ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20832722 Tue, 22 Jul 2008 18:26:54 EDT Re: Need Help on idea of "Why is a router needed?" http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20832661 Jeffrey :
said by tschmidt See Profile :

.. .good info removed to shorten reply length ...

So that in a nutshell is why NAT Router improves security but why is really is not needed if one has only a single computer.

For most home users the big threat is not direct remote access sneaking through a misconfigured port it is malware or Phishing attacks installing a Trojan.

/tom
Thanks for that info, that was a big help. I'll communicate it to them like that the next time they call me over for a Q&A session.
--
"Honesty may be the best policy, but it's important to remember that apparently, by elimination, dishonesty is the second-best policy." - George Carlin

[my ramblings]]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20832661 Tue, 22 Jul 2008 18:13:19 EDT Re: Need Help on idea of "Why is a router needed?" http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20832603 tschmidt : The main reason to use a home router is to share an Internet connection where ISP provides a single IP address. NAT (Network Address Translation), specifically one-to-many NAT takes advantage of IETF 1918 private address space so a customer is able to create a LAN with virtually unlimited number of computers.

A side effect of NAT is that unless port forwarding is turned on (to run one or more servers) incoming connection requests are dropped because router does not know how to forward them. This provide a measure of additional security if computer(s) are misconfigured.

For a single computer with no active listing services (typically file and print sharing) NAT does not provide additional security.

A good analogy to understand the security benefit of NAT is a Post Office. The IP address gets the packet to the Post Office. To access a specific service TCP/UDP packets have a 16-bit value called a port number. Think of this as a mail box within the Post Office. If your Mail Box is locked (no listening services) doesn't really matter if people (packets) are allowed into the Post Office since door to your box is locked.

Where NAT is useful is if you forget to lock your door. Having main door to the Post Office locked (NAT) keeps the bad guys out of your unlocked mailbox.

When used with multiple computers NAT provides a convenient boundary between notion of LAN and WAN and prevents access to services intended for LAN use only.

Routers often include firewalls that are configured to allow or disallow use of certain ports. This strategy is often used by commercial customers. The problem is firewall restricts deployment of new services if firewall policy is very strict. To bypass Firewalls applications often use standard well know ports emulating other services, negating value of a firewall. Firewalls have to allow access to ports used to provide desired services. In those cases Firewall offers no protection. The computer must be robust/hardened to resist attack.

So that in a nutshell is why NAT Router improves security but why is really is not needed if one has only a single computer.

For most home users the big threat is not direct remote access sneaking through a misconfigured port it is malware or Phishing attacks installing a Trojan.

/tom ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20832603 Tue, 22 Jul 2008 18:00:02 EDT Re: Need Help on idea of "Why is a router needed?" http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20831816 Kearnstd : routers are like a security fence, they keep unwanted traffic out. but if you let something bad into the fence it can send stuff out at will unless there is a firewall.

router+good firewall is like having a guard at the only gate in that fence, the guard knows whos coming and whos going where as the gate just knows whos coming and automaticly opens for all those leaving.
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[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20831816 Tue, 22 Jul 2008 15:48:43 EDT Re: Need Help on idea of "Why is a router needed?" http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20823853 Cthen : Have you tried any analogies for them? My favorite for this type of thing is this: "It's kind of like putting up a 10' fence around your house with razor wire on top. This way you can only let the people (traffic) you want in or out. Ofcourse there is that one friend you let in (malware/spyware) which in turns lets his friends in. You realize your fence is useless without common sense so your more careful about who you invite in." :D Will that help?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20823853 Mon, 21 Jul 2008 08:23:52 EDT Re: Need Help on idea of "Why is a router needed?" http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20822961 Jeffrey :
said by La Luna See Profile :

NAT Routers
Thanks for that link, and I was thinking of it, but after reading it a few days ago, I realized it was just way too complicated for my "audience."

The FAQ is great, the audience is not so great. ;)
--
"Honesty may be the best policy, but it's important to remember that apparently, by elimination, dishonesty is the second-best policy." - George Carlin

[my ramblings]]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20822961 Sun, 20 Jul 2008 23:27:19 EDT Re: Need Help on idea of "Why is a router needed?" http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20822942 La Luna : NAT Routers]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20822942 Sun, 20 Jul 2008 23:23:46 EDT Re: Need Help on idea of "Why is a router needed?" http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20822587 CylonRed : ADSL that uses PPPoE is different - there is plenty of ADSL out there that does not use PPPoE. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20822587 Sun, 20 Jul 2008 22:13:40 EDT Re: Need Help on idea of "Why is a router needed?" http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20822167 efflandt : It depends what kind of internet connection they have. If it is cable, that typically puts the public IP right on the PC nic, and it can be susceptible to Windows file/printer sharing for anyone in their neighborhood (on the same cable).

ADSL is handled differently (through PPPoE tunnel), so no one else is really on the same local public network (my PPPoE typically has netmask 255.255.255.255, so the only thing local is defaultroute IP. But most DSL modems now act as modem/router (even if only 1 ethernet port). So a router is not really necessary for most DSL unless there is more than one PC. I actually have the optional DSL modem/router with 4 ports and wireless.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20822167 Sun, 20 Jul 2008 20:50:20 EDT Re: Need Help on idea of "Why is a router needed?" http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20822037 sjprep06 : You don't necessarily NEED a router if they only have one computer at home. I would say get one anyone because G routers have gotten so cheap and basically as good as they are going to get that there really isn't a reason to not have one. It also helps 'future-proof' their home. Who's to say that they won't buy another computer or have family and friends come over with their computers? Just makes things a tad bit easier and it provides a bit more protection against the internet. It is NOT a definitive preventative solution to having another firewall and anti-virus program on your computer....

The best way to explain it to them I would think is to say that two locks are better than one on a door. Every door (computer) has a normal lock (software firewall/anti-virus) which does keep most of the unwanted traffic out 95% of the time. But doors that have deadbolts (routers) keep most of the traffic out much more easily and more of the time if used in conjunction with a normal lock. And if you have an alarm system, your ability to keep the riff-raff out is increased even more. Layered security is much more effective that one security measure.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20822037 Sun, 20 Jul 2008 20:17:43 EDT Re: Need Help on idea of "Why is a router needed?" http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20821325 public :
said by tcope See Profile :

A router is not going to block much and if your relying on a router instead of a virus/malware scanner and possibly a software firewall, your shooting yourself in the foot.
Remember the Blaster and Slammer worms? You are still exposed to undisclosed windows flaws with just a software scanner.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20821325 Sun, 20 Jul 2008 17:26:03 EDT Re: Need Help on idea of "Why is a router needed?" http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20821195 Jeffrey :
said by tcope See Profile :

Not the best forum for this question and I beg to differ. A router is not going to block much and if your relying on a router instead of a virus/malware scanner and possibly a software firewall, your shooting yourself in the foot. With that said, the router can provide some limited firewall capability but not much. I see no reason to spend $40 and up on a router unless you have a wireless connection.
Yeah, I didn't know exactly where to put this one.

Well they have the built-in XP firewall and virus protection, but I was always told a router was a good level of protection, esp given the low cost of routers these days.
--
"Honesty may be the best policy, but it's important to remember that apparently, by elimination, dishonesty is the second-best policy." - George Carlin

[my ramblings]]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20821195 Sun, 20 Jul 2008 16:46:19 EDT Re: Need Help on idea of "Why is a router needed?" http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20821178 tcope : Not the best forum for this question and I beg to differ. A router is not going to block much and if your relying on a router instead of a virus/malware scanner and possibly a software firewall, your shooting yourself in the foot. With that said, the router can provide some limited firewall capability but not much. I see no reason to spend $40 and up on a router unless you have a wireless connection.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20821178 Sun, 20 Jul 2008 16:40:45 EDT Need Help on idea of "Why is a router needed?" http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20821129 Jeffrey : My Dad and his high school and college buddies get together once or twice a month. They play cards, eat, drink, BS, etc. Talk about life, music, computers, and these days, Medicare Part D. :)

Some of the guys are "computer guys" - mainframe guys - from back in the 50s and 60s. Keep in mind, most of these guys retired between 1990 and 2000.

That being said, while they may no stuff about the big-ass room-size mainframes (with punchcards) from the middle of the 20th century, they know comparitively little about today's computers. Such as the ins and outs of Windows XP, Windows Vista, home-networking, etc.

All of these guys (except one) has a broadband internet connection at home. Cable connections, I believe. Since I happen to be the guy with the most computer knowledge out of the bunch - and that isn't saying a whole lot - they tend to ask me a lot of questions when I'm around during their monthly gatherings.

Two of these guys kept asking me why they needed a router on their broadband connection even though they only had one computer (wired). I tried to explain how it is an added safety measure, as a router tends to block all unrequested content from the outside. So, while if you have an infection already, the router is going to allow that traffic in because it's been requested. But a router on a broadband connection offers a good level of security as opposed to leaving your computer connected directly to the cable modem as it blocks unrequested - and potentially harmful - data or intrusion attempts.

Needless to say, they were still confused. I can't seem to explain it any better. I was wondering if anyone has come across any videos (or articles) out there which explain the simplest possible terms why a router is a good security choice, even on a 1-PC home network?
--
"Honesty may be the best policy, but it's important to remember that apparently, by elimination, dishonesty is the second-best policy." - George Carlin

[my ramblings]]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20821129 Sun, 20 Jul 2008 16:27:44 EDT