oh LOOK
@videotron.ca
| CAIPS new Filing: CAIP debunks Bell Canada throttling claim Full article @: »www.p2pnet.net/story/16485
“In our final submission to the CRTC we have debunked many of the inaccuracies put forth by Bell and clarified many of the issues that seemed to be a deliberate attempt to confuse and distract the Commission,” CAIP chairman and president Tom Copelamnd told p2pnet, adding:
“Our argument continues to be based on breaches in the Telecom Act and the regulations within the Act that Bell is required to respect.
“We hope the Commission agrees with our views and we look forward to a positive outcome.”
Below is the complete submission, minus footnotes, and once again, I apologise for leaving the footnote numbers in the body and emphasise any mistakes in formatting, inadvertent omissions, and so on, are mine. | |
|
 tiger9
join:2005-08-01
Ont,Canada
 ·Bell Sympatico
| Re: CAIPS new Filing: CAIP debunks Bell Canada throttling claim Good. Let's hope the CRTC does the right thing. If this goes through, who knows what Bell would do?
I don't know about you, but I like alternative ISPs when my contract expires  | |
|
LOL at Bell
@videotron.ca | Paragraph 77.
"Whether or not one gives Bell the benefit of the doubt regarding the reason behind its varying storylines,"
LOL RIGHT ON CAIP!!! hah!
IN your Face! | |
|
justin_here
@rogers.com | The CAIPs new filing is a good read. But couldn't help noticing a few grammatical errors.  | |
|
k6richar
join:2008-06-17
Kitchener, ON | i only read about the first 1/4 skimmed some more after that. Some good arguements in there, hopefully the CRTC listens to it not BS bull is serving them. | |
|
oh LOOK
@videotron.ca
| I like what CAIP is asking for and reiterates in its filing:
=====
the Canadian Association of Internet Providers (CAIP) filed an application with the Commission (the Application), pursuant to Part VII of the CRTC Telecommunications Rules of Procedure, seeking a number of orders declaring that Bell’s throttling of GAS services breached sections 24, 25, 27, and 36 of the Telecommunications Act (The Act) and mandating Bell to cease and desist from same, as follows:
1. A final order directing Bell Canada to cease and desist from using any technologies to “shape”, “throttle” and/or “choke” its wholesale ADSL services;
2. An order that Bell comply with the terms and conditions of its wholesale ADSL tariffs;
3. A declaration that Bell has acted unlawfully and in a manner that is contrary to tariffs approved by the Commission;
4. An order that Bell not deviate from the terms and conditions of its approved wholesale ADSL tariffs without prior Commission approval of any such changes;
5. A declaration that Bell has acted unlawfully and in a manner that is contrary to the requirement that a local exchange carrier that provides service to other local exchange carriers provide advance notice of network changes, pursuant to Local Competition, Telecom Decision CRTC 97-8 (Decision 97-8);
6. A declaration that Bell has granted to itself an undue and unreasonable preference and subjected independent ISPs to an undue and unreasonable disadvantage by shaping, throttling and choking its wholesale ADSL services in the manner described in this Application; and
7. A declaration that Bell has acted unlawfully and contrary to the prohibition against carrier interference with the content of messages carried over its telecommunications network contrary to section 36 of the Act and contrary to the Canadian telecommunications policy objectives set out in paragraphs 7(a) and (i) which, inter alia, seek to protect the privacy of persons. | |
|
p2p_NEXT
@anonymouse.org | What happens next?
Does Bell reply again?
Anyone know? | |
|
 |
Maynard G Krebs
@teksavvy.com
| Re: CAIPS new Filing: CAIP debunks Bell Canada throttling claim said by p2p_NEXT :
What happens next?
Does Bell reply again?
Anyone know?
We wait to see if the CRTC has follow-up questions.
What galls me is that the CRTC did not force Bell to remove DPI/throttle in April and then force Bell to 'apply' for permisssion to DPI/throttle via a public application to the CRTC.
We'll wind up having been DPI'd/throttled for 6+ months before the CRTC rules on this, and then Bell will ask for 6+ months to remove the throttle/DPI boxes because to do so any faster would be 'disruptive' to their operations. | |
|
| | 
mordin
42 inches of 1080p
Premium
join:2005-05-28
Moncton, NB
| Re: CAIPS new Filing: CAIP debunks Bell Canada throttling claim said by Maynard G Krebs :
What galls me is that the CRTC did not force Bell to remove DPI/throttle in April and then force Bell to 'apply' for permisssion to DPI/throttle via a public application to the CRTC.
They didn't because the CRTC doesn't regulate the internet. It did mandate that Bell open access to it's networks to 3rd party resellers. These hearings are to determine if Bell's DPI/throttling hurting those 3rd party resellers by giving Bell an unfair advantage.
--
Intel P4 2.8 800 fsb, Asus P4P800 w/1GB PC3200 DDR RAM, 512 MB GeForce 7600GT, SB Audigy Gamer, DVD-Rom/CD-R Burner & LG Duel layer DVD Burner, 320 & 120 GB Internal & 2x 250 & 3x 500 GB External hard drives & Samsung 226BW 22" LCD Monitor | |
|
| 
R0CKY
TSI Rocky
Premium,VIP
join:2005-05-19
Chatham, ON
| said by p2p_NEXT :
What happens next?
Does Bell reply again?
Anyone know?
The CRTC will render their verdict by September if things hold to their previous time-frame. In the meantime two things.............
1 - We're not quite done just yet! 
2 - If you believe in what CAIP believes in now's the time to educate the world. The old way of doing business, where ethics and profits are at odds, must cease to exist! Being fair, truthful and transparent is the only way to go going forward! Tell your friends and family so that this case be used as an example of a serious need to rewrite how things are run... We, the clients, in the end have the power and if the decision-makers and politicians, elected by these same clients, are told unanimously that corporate bullying must stop, then backdoor lobbying and spin tactics won't matter anymore. Change will come....
Rocky
--
TSI Rocky - TekSavvy Solutions Inc. | |
|
| |
shaggy_anon
@on.ca
| Re: CAIPS new Filing: CAIP debunks Bell Canada throttling claim I did just that. I had a ten minute technical prestentation to do with my college communications class.
20 or so people that are more aware now then they were.
If I wasnt talking out my ass so much I would have had them all enlist against the man | |
|
| |
Maynard G Krebs
@teksavvy.com
| said by R0CKY  :The CRTC will render their verdict by September if things hold to their previous time-frame. In the meantime two things............. 1 - We're not quite done just yet! 2 - If you believe in what CAIP believes in now's the time to educate the world. The old way of doing business, where ethics and profits are at odds, must cease to exist! Being fair, truthful and transparent is the only way to go going forward! Tell your friends and family so that this case be used as an example of a serious need to rewrite how things are run... We, the clients, in the end have the power and if the decision-makers and politicians, elected by these same clients, are told unanimously that corporate bullying must stop, then backdoor lobbying and spin tactics won't matter anymore. Change will come.... Pool some money together for some late evening TV ads...
Scene 1: Person writes a letter, drops it into a mail box, employee at postal sorting station opens it & reads it. Cops bust the employee and give him the perp walk.
Scene 2: Person writes an e-mail and sends it (shot of person's monitor typing/sending e-mail). Next frame his e-mail pops up and is read on a monitor in a location clearly identified as Bell Network Operation Centre.
Voice over: "It's illegal to read other peoples mail. Why does Bell think it can get away with it? Call your MP and local Crown prosecutor and ask." | |
|
| | |
yuppers
@videotron.ca | Re: CAIPS new Filing: CAIP debunks Bell Canada throttling claim Thats something CIPPIC should get involve with as well.
Part of an education program | |
|
| | | BellVictim
Premium
join:2006-04-17
| said by Maynard G Krebs :
Pool some money together for some late evening TV ads...
Heh, I contemplated a few days ago trying to entice some Ryerson students into doing up something that could be posted to YouTube.
Scene 1: Person writes a letter, drops it into a mail box, employee at postal sorting station opens it & reads it. Cops bust the employee and give him the perp walk.
Scene 2: Person writes an e-mail and sends it (shot of person's monitor typing/sending e-mail). Next frame his e-mail pops up and is read on a monitor in a location clearly identified as Bell Network Operation Centre.
Voice over: "It's illegal to read other peoples mail. Why does Bell think it can get away with it? Call your MP and local Crown prosecutor and ask."
Yeah, I had a similar sort of thinking...
Start with showing how someone addresses a postal envelope, seals it and sends it out ... and how the postal system respects the sanctity of the contents.
Then show how a BitTorrent packet is assembled...
- the BitTorrent request comprises the TCP data (or payload)
- the port numbers of the communication are put into the TCP header
- this complete TCP packet comprises an IP packet's payload, which is added to the IP header and further assembled...
- etc
- all the way up to the ethernet frame that goes out one's router
But have the peeps in the video actually placing envelopes into envelopes.
Then have some character representing Bell show how Bell opens up envelopes within envelopes within envelopes within envelopes to get at the BitTorrent information ... and how this amounts to the same as the postal service opening up people's envelopes to read their private mail because the extent of the examination by the carrier is in excess of the minimum required to actually route the communications.
I was hoping that coupling Ryerson's strong technology contingent with their well-known Image Arts/New Media departments to come up with a YouTube video/statement that could perhaps be technically perfect in its demonstration of the IT principles involved and yet appealing to Joe & Jane Sixpack (viewers) by being well-produced, executed and 'acted'. In the end hopefully this would increase exposure of the issue of Bell's snooping on packets, and could also draw positive attention for the students involved and even Ryerson proper (better than being in the news for busting Facebook study groups
What we'd first need is a Ryerson-centered anti-throttling group - "Ryerson Students Against Internet Brownouts" or somesuch.
(Maynard rocks) | |
|
|
| 
HiVolt
29
Premium
join:2000-12-28
Toronto, ON
clubs:
·TekSavvy Solutions..
| Re: CAIPS new Filing: CAIP debunks Bell Canada throttling claim All i gotta say is GO CAIP!!!
This document has some serious bite to it, and I really see no reason for the CRTC to have any questions or doubts. They've seen what bullshit Bell provided.
If the CRTC does not see this for what it is, we might as well unplug from the internet and go live in a cave. The future ahead is not gonna magically detach itself from the internet. If Bell is allowed to continue with this, others will follow, and the consequences are too scary to imagine.
--
,,!,,('-'),,!,, | |
|
| 
Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC | My 4500-vs-trillions argument got used too ^_^ | |
|
| |
ah ok C it
@videotron.ca
| Re: CAIPS new Filing: CAIP debunks Bell Canada throttling claim must be this one:
Paragraph 91
Second, Bell claims that cell loss events are registered when an ATM port experiences
even a single discard due to congestion. This statement must be placed into context.
Bell’s network transmits trillions of data packets per day to hundreds of thousands of end
users. CAIP notes that the percentage of lost data recorded by Bell is therefore
infinitesimally small. Furthermore, Bell provides not an iota of evidence that this level of
packet loss results in “impacts to the customer experience” as it claims in its response to
the Commission’s interrogatories.64 Indeed, third party commentators suggest that such
losses would be unnoticeable to the end user. | |
|
| | |
Bellundo
@teksavvy.com | Re: CAIPS new Filing: CAIP debunks Bell Canada throttling claim The only packet loss is caused by the throttle boxes themselves. | |
|
|
|
R0CKY
TSI Rocky
Premium,VIP
join:2005-05-19
Chatham, ON | Re: CAIPS new Filing: CAIP debunks Bell Canada throttling claim typo... it's not a big deal as it's already been established at 5 megabit...
--
TSI Rocky - TekSavvy Solutions Inc. | |
|
| | |
davidbrown
join:2005-05-31
Toronto, ON
·Bell Sympatico
| Regardless of weather we win or not this behavior from the likes of bell and rogers is doomed.
Its become too much of a public issue now and people unlike before are beginning to understand whats being done.
As with comcast its not worth the public backlash and the risk of government crack down.
Irony is it was in big part the web is whats educated people and thats a genie that can't be put back in by bell,rogers or any provider now. | |
|
|
|
oh LOOK
@videotron.ca
| Full article @ »www.p2pnet.net/story/16490
The CBC has picked up on the latest, and final, CAIP submission to the CRTC over the Bell Canada traffing throttling scandal.
Bell implies P2P is the, “motive force behind a wave of ‘bandwidth hungry’ applications that will soon overwhelm global networks in the absence of aggressive measures taken against it,” says the submission.
“It also states that all P2P data transfers should be considered the postal equivalent of ‘bulk’ or ‘lower urgency’ mail, and that such transfers are never ‘time-sensitive’ to the same extent as web browsing and other applications.”
“In its submission on Wednesday, CAIP said Bell’s defence for throttling - that the company is only slowing P2P downloads, which still get to the user “eventually” - is discriminatory and anti-competitive.”
Ontario-based ISP TekSavvy was among the first, if not the first, to protest Bell’s attempt to shackle its users and impose a block on net neutrality.
“If you believe in what CAIP believes in now’s the time to educate the world,” says CEO Rocky Gaudrault (right) on dslrports, adding »»»
The old way of doing business, where ethics and profits are at odds, must cease to exist! Being fair, truthful and transparent is the only way to go going forward!
Tell your friends and family so that this case be used as an example of a serious need to rewrite how things are run.
We, the clients, in the end have the power and if the decision-makers and politicians, elected by these same clients, are told unanimously that corporate bullying must stop, then backdoor lobbying and spin tactics won’t matter anymore.
Change will come ……..
continued @ above URL... | |
|
|
|
R0CKY
TSI Rocky
Premium,VIP
join:2005-05-19
Chatham, ON | Re: CAIPS new Filing: CAIP debunks Bell Canada throttling claim I liked this submission! | |
|
| | 
Arbalister
join:2007-11-24
St Catharines, ON
·TekSavvy Solutions..
| Re: CAIPS new Filing: CAIP debunks Bell Canada throttling claim quote:
CAIP regrets that it was unable to file its Reply on 22 July 2008 because it was unable to
access the Commission’s website over a period of approximately 24 hours from Sunday, 20 July
2008 to Monday, 21 July 2008. CAIP understands that this may have been due to a power
outage at the Commission. CAIP sincerely apologises for any inconvenience that this may
cause.
They were probably ... traffic shaped. :-P | |
|
| |
oh LOOK
@videotron.ca
| Personally, I think (which I do at times)...
with the amount of attention CAIP gained over the summer I am surprised I have not seen something like this on the ISP's web sites:
"Proud Memebr of the Canadian Association of Internet Providers" with a CAIP logo.
This type of marketing (and its only a line with a logo) will differentiate the "TALKERS" from the "DO'ers".
I know of a few non CAIP members who were talkingers when this started, but not DO'ers.
Who else thinks Teksavvy's website should sport a CAIP logo and the one-liner?
To me, especially after this summers events, this means something.
Of course out of the 50-something CAIP members some were for the throttle... but those ISP's can be ratted on later.
/me goes back into non-thinking mode.
 | |
|
| | |
R0CKY
TSI Rocky
Premium,VIP
join:2005-05-19
Chatham, ON | Re: CAIPS new Filing: CAIP debunks Bell Canada throttling claim OOOOOOOOHhhhhhhh.... call us out on the CAIP thing huh! 
LOL... Gimme 5 mins!
--
TSI Rocky - TekSavvy Solutions Inc. | |
|
| | | |
erm ummm
@videotron.ca | Re: CAIPS new Filing: CAIP debunks Bell Canada throttling claim LOL Nooooo wasn't aimed at you.
hello... hello... am I being dos'd?? | |
|
| | | | |
R0CKY
TSI Rocky
Premium,VIP
join:2005-05-19
Chatham, ON | Re: CAIPS new Filing: CAIP debunks Bell Canada throttling claim Done! | |
|
| | | | | | distr0
join:2007-05-03
St George Brant, ON | Re: CAIPS new Filing: CAIP debunks Bell Canada throttling claim nice, but you broke the background  | |
|
| | | | | | |
| | | | | |
oh and
@videotron.ca
| *Think on*
heh (can't help myself) do you think you should add that you and Marc are the recipient of the Bell business of the year award?
(or was it entrepreneurs of the year award? I forget now)
Its kinda like the last kick in the pants type thing
*Think off*
(For those who don't know Rocky and Marc won an award from bell Canada for Business of the year not too long ago. Think it was just before the throttle.) | |
|
| | |
of course
@videotron.ca | *Think on*
of course CAIP could charge a nominal fee to sport the logo, like 100$ and available to only members in good standing type thing.
*Think off* | |
|
| | | globus999
join:2008-05-15
| said by oh LOOK :
Personally, I think (which I do at times)...
with the amount of attention CAIP gained over the summer I am surprised I have not seen something like this on the ISP's web sites:
"Proud Memebr of the Canadian Association of Internet Providers" with a CAIP logo.
This type of marketing (and its only a line with a logo) will differentiate the "TALKERS" from the "DO'ers".
I have personally corresponded with several ISPs to "entice" them to do something like that. Result? NOPE, NADA.
Basically, they are chikens!
Friggin B*STARDS! | |
|
| | | |
but but
@videotron.ca | Re: CAIPS new Filing: CAIP debunks Bell Canada throttling claim were these "several" ISP's part of the CAIP fight?
you have to remember some of them support the throttle and want it. | |
|
ragingwolf
join:2003-04-22
Nepean, ON
| quote:
Concerned by this turn of events, Bell’s GAS customers met with Bell on 23 November 2007 and asked Bell directly whether it intended to use DPI on its wholesale ADSL access services. The Bell representatives present at the meeting stated that Bell would only use the technology in conjunction with its retail Sympatico high speed internet service.
Interesting indeed... I think its pretty clear bell has had zero intention whatsoever of letting other isp's know anything about the dpi boxes :/ | |
|
|
Radar73
join:2008-01-20
Ajax, ON
| I too read the whole submission. I thought it was well done. One point they only trivially touched on was that Bell transmits PPPoE packets and that nothing inside that packet is required for them to carry out that task in accordance with the GAS Tarriff. Everything else Bell has done to throttle digs into that PPPoE packet, completely unnecessarily.
With all the good stuff CAIP said in this final submission, which blows all of Bells arguments away, I hope the CRTC will do what's right. Now we have to wait a couple of months to find out. | |
|
ohhowsilly
@cia.com
| Perhaps we will see everyone's dream come true:
Teacher's will spin off the access network into a privately held (Lots of suitors in investment funds) company (AN Inc.) that only owns copper loops, dslams and a few other sundry things. The rest of Bell will become a super-spanning corporate entity still owning a triple-play via mobility & ExVu (both mostly forborne), and owning the major optical transport, of which new private AN Inc. will be a client (for backhaul) at the same time as Bell Retail/Mobility/ExVu/Nexxia/Etc. is a client of their regulated copper loops, DMS switches and dslams, which run off Retail Co.'s fiber.
Hahahaha! Won't that be fun! Bell will shed the crappiest part of its assets (in that it is regulated and causing this sh*t storm and is kind of crappy and capital/OPEX intensive). And Bell Retail Co. be forborne from regulation!
Seriously, look at some of the bad stuff in the UK. Bt Openreach and Wholesale are shit. Telstra is shit.
Other telcos do throttle: »biz.yahoo.com/iw/080129/0354254.html Even South Korea's Hanaro throttles its VDSL. So do many academic institutions. Does Dr. Geist's University of Ottawa limits P2P use in residence... for shame if it does. | |
|
tinfoil hat
@videotron.ca
| I still say these DPI boxes have all the look of the defunct MITA Act.
»www.itbusiness.ca/it/client/en/h···id=38130
===
"CAIP said the legislation, if passed, will stifle innovation by requiring all new technologies to be access-capable in order to be rolled out. It also does not address the issue of operational costs for telecom service providers (TSPs). Further, it will require TSPs to be capable of conducting large volumes of simultaneous intercepts without confirming that such high volumes would ever be necessary."
===
See when this first hit, they said all wholesale ISP's who have under 100K users, the entity who would be the watch-dog would be the main supplier (ie Bell).
If over 100k users, then it falls on the wholesale ISP to be able to do what MITA asks for.
These boxes provide the very means of what was asked for by the MITA act on everything riding the network.
I just find it a funny coincidence, nothing more.... But makes you go hmmmmmm.... | |
|
|
|
|
·