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root9
join:2005-04-08
Kitchener, ON
3 edits | reply to Robrr
Re: CAIP debunks Bell Canada throttling claim
I'm glad you've done some reading and made some headway into this for all users.
Replies point by point:
1, That's is I choose the Privacy Commissioners Office. There are numerous ways in which customer may request this information. By walking and asking, walking in asking with Notice in hand, by email, by phone, through legal representative,by trusted friend with note signed if person is disabled. And probably many more.
2, Bell employee here can forward user information to proper department at Bell and they will crosscheck if such user made a request ...
3, ditto with above
4, & 5, Bell employees are responsible for their actions here due to company rules. It's not a matter of users having their way .. it's a matter of sniping at users, misinformation etc.
6, As is obvious by company rules and pain to see for many users here
7, In »Re: CAIP debunks Bell Canada throttling claim part of thread he's is misleading the public by saying:
"As for your other "rules", those all appear to be, for the most part, Net Neutrality principles. There is no law in Canada which applies or enforces Net Neutrality, so the argument is moot from that perspective.
And this may be news to you, but most ISP's use anti-spam and anti-virus solutions on their inbound and outbound mail servers in order to protect their network and their end users - with or without the end-user's permission (it's not a choice actually)."
... which is outright bull.
Internet Authority set these rules for many reasons. Bell or any ISP is only a carrier of packets from user to user and user to site without any interference. Seems like deadpool/Bell are making up stories and rules as they go along without notice to customers or anyone.
In »Re: CAIP debunks Bell Canada throttling claim
"Well, first off, there are no laws in Canada governing the Internet or access to it. "
And what is the Telecommunications Act for?
Need I mention ALL the misinformation he/Bell has spread throughout these forums?
Screw it, I'm not even gona waste my time with the rest.
The result it this:
Bell's employee conduct => »www.bce.ca/en/governance/codeofc···dex.php/
Read it and weep.
Hint: And I know rest of Telcos have similar rules.
What all this comes down to is this: It's about time to put a stop to corporate employees badgering and misleading users in these forums. If employees don't actually show proof then let them, as you so dearly put it, "STFU" or be reported. Whether it's on subject of CAIP or anything else in these forums. The onus is on them!
Thank you.
--
Please engage eyeballs and retain functional brain before operating fingers. | |
Robrr
join:2008-04-19
Toronto, ON
 ·TekSavvy Solutions..
 ·Rogers Hi-Speed
| First off I want to say congratulations, you brought me an actual reply with something to back it up 
I will be back later to reply to this as it appears I actually have some reading to do today
ps I even gave you a thumbs up for it | |
Robrr
join:2008-04-19
Toronto, ON
·TekSavvy Solutions..
·Rogers Hi-Speed
| reply to root9
Re: CAIP debunks Bell Canada throttling claim
said by root9  :I'm glad you've done some reading and made some headway into this for all users. Replies point by point: 1, That's is I choose the Privacy Commissioners Office. There are numerous ways in which customer may request this information. By walking and asking, walking in asking with Notice in hand, by email, by phone, through legal representative,by trusted friend with note signed if person is disabled. And probably many more. 2, Bell employee here can forward user information to proper department at Bell and they will crosscheck if such user made a request ... 3, ditto with above 4, & 5, Bell employees are responsible for their actions here due to company rules. It's not a matter of users having their way .. it's a matter of sniping at users, misinformation etc. 6, As is obvious by company rules and pain to see for many users here 7, In » Re: CAIP debunks Bell Canada throttling claim part of thread he's is misleading the public by saying: "As for your other "rules", those all appear to be, for the most part, Net Neutrality principles. There is no law in Canada which applies or enforces Net Neutrality, so the argument is moot from that perspective. And this may be news to you, but most ISP's use anti-spam and anti-virus solutions on their inbound and outbound mail servers in order to protect their network and their end users - with or without the end-user's permission (it's not a choice actually)." ... which is outright bull. Internet Authority set these rules for many reasons. Bell or any ISP is only a carrier of packets from user to user and user to site without any interference. Seems like deadpool/Bell are making up stories and rules as they go along without notice to customers or anyone. In » Re: CAIP debunks Bell Canada throttling claim"Well, first off, there are no laws in Canada governing the Internet or access to it. " And what is the Telecommunications Act for? Need I mention ALL the misinformation he/Bell has spread throughout these forums? Screw it, I'm not even gona waste my time with the rest. The result it this: Bell's employee conduct => » www.bce.ca/en/governance/codeofc···dex.php/Read it and weep. Hint: And I know rest of Telcos have similar rules. What all this comes down to is this: It's about time to put a stop to corporate employees badgering and misleading users in these forums. If employees don't actually show proof then let them, as you so dearly put it, "STFU" or be reported. Whether it's on subject of CAIP or anything else in these forums. The onus is on them! Thank you. 1. I am sure there are many methods to go about requesting the info. I have yet to come across such specifics.
2 & 3. Provide proof that they have yet to do this. I have been across the PIPEDA document once and did not come across anything stating that you can give a request to anyone in the company and that they have to forward it. As of current I think this is simply a good gesture of customer service.
With regards to this though, a forum is not the place to do it, send an email or a written letter.
4, 5, & 6. Still reading the Code of Conduct.
7a. Who or what in the hell is the Internet Authority. And what application does this have to do with Canadian Law. Links are especially good with regards to this one
7b. The CRTC has said in past they did not wish to govern the internet and as such there really has not been a governance of the internet even to this day. The only reason this have come to fruition is because of the complain submitted by CAIP. With that being said as of yet in all actuality the Telecommunications Act really doesn't apply to the internet until such time that the CRTC decides to say it does or goes about creating a new act specific to the internet. (And that is public knowledge that everyone here on this forum will agree to)
Lastly I would like to say that the onus is on everyone here in this forum(not just Telco employees) to provide information as accurately as possible. The reason being is that if everyone throws in a bit of accurate info you can develop a really strong knowledge base to build from. | |
chronoss2008
Premium
join:2008-03-29
·TekSavvy Solutions..
·Bell Sympatico
1 edit | reply to oh LOOK
WRONG
the crtc didn't say that , it is a conservative view.
What the CRTC has said in the past which makes more sense is akin to allowing these ISP's to try and get this right on there own, if they can't then that is what the CRTC is for to be like an arbritrator as in the CAIP case.
Simply if i rent ten lanes of the highway form you, at there max speed of 100KM/H( and thats the agreement as signed 100% of the highway access )
and you tell me for later all the times most cars will be on the highway i am stuck to half a lane( 95% reduction for 12 hrs a the day ) then that is bad business , not to mention "misrepresentation of the contractual duties of one party to ACT IN GOOD FAITH" - emphasis mine.
groklaw.net go see about the IBM case vs SCO a contrctual dispute , as well as novel vs SCO and redhat vs SCO etc.
Lovely readings there over the past what 4-5 years....
It is not enough to say that i can alter the terms any time, if the terms are so justly unfair, it comes down to has bell been over selling its network to the point that for every account it should ONLY have, it has 20?
What kind of negligence is there in the universe that does this?
Do airlines with 100 seats book 2000 passengers and just say sorry you have to take the next flight? OR one that is 95% slower to get you to your destination.
They'd be out of business and sued into class action oblivion.
Do bus and transportation book tickets for a 50 seat bus that would sell 1000 for that specific trip?
Again ONLY WHEN you have negligence to the customer does such happen.
note the above are travel things , same as my packets do, travel somewhere. It needs only be referanced as the above scenario to see how unjust and negligent BCE has been, and why its profits have fallen in half for the year they began the stupidity.
Does my landlord rent me a room and tell me that for 12 hrs a day i am only allowed into 5% of the place. NO cause landlord and tenant laws protect me versus that.
What laws in these other areas protect people should get applied to law here and go from there. | |
root9
join:2005-04-08
Kitchener, ON
1 edit | reply to iGloo
excuse me? STFU? HAHAHA ... not in your wildest dreams
Challenge was made to deapool and not to you or anyone else. Therefore a Pro-tip back: Butt out and mind your manners.
My router or any equipment I own is in my possession and under my control not Bell's, or yours for that matter. I can keep it as is, recode it or modify it in any way I choose.
DPI is under Bell's control and is well known to capture, shape, drop and or modify packets. I didn't give them permission to do so. I paid for data to be transfered from point A to point B ... not to be messed with in any way or spied on in between. With antics to date I don't trust Bell, Rogers or anyone with the tech. to invade privacy.
Request/demand was made due to deadpool mixing CAIP and user info in same statement. It was made in this public forum due to him spouting off in this public forum. It is my choice, not yours or anyone else's how I answer him.
Whatever I do with his reply is again my choice. I will tell you this though: he has made a grave mistake by not forwarding said request/demand personally to appropriate department. According to Bell's employee code of conduct, Canada's laws, acts and policies I have many more options now.
I will add: I have access to full copy of Sandvine code and I know exactly what it does and how it does it. And from the attitude here none of you are going to get access to it.
Thank you whoever pointed me to this Bell's employee code of conduct. 
I especially thank all of you for opening my eyes as to how this forum operates and telling me showing me first hand who's who and what's what, good and bad. I'll be sure to warn everyone I know and exactly what I've found.
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Please engage eyeballs and retain functional brain before operating fingers. | |
mordin
42 inches of 1080p
Premium
join:2005-05-28
Moncton, NB
| reply to chronoss2008
said by chronoss2008 :Does my landlord rent me a room and tell me that for 12 hrs a day i am only allowed into 5% of the place. NO cause landlord and tenant laws protect me versus that. If it's in the contract... The Bell contract states 'up to' depending on conditions, it also states they can alter the contract and manage their network how they see fit - don't like the terms then don't sign the contract.
Oh by the way a lot of airlines over sell the seats based on the average cancellations/no shows although I don't know how wide spread it is today.
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mordin
42 inches of 1080p
Premium
join:2005-05-28
Moncton, NB
| reply to root9
said by root9 :Thank you whoever pointed me to this Bell's employee code of conduct. Well then you should also check out »www.bce.ca/en/responsibility/cus···ndex.php
and click the Customer 'Privacy Policy' link under 'Resource Room' on the right. It will tell you the same thing deadpool told you & the same thing you should get from any Bell front line employee.
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root9
join:2005-04-08
Kitchener, ON
| Thanx mordin, although i've been there done that.
It has actually taken me/us about 5 months to gather enough info due to Bell site being all over the place, employees don't know squat or mislead ppl. Seems like they have systematically hidden the info all over to make sure it's hard to find much of it. Much of it contradicts it's self, is vague, distorted or even false. And my lawyers love it. Makes for much bigger bill to Bell
And i pitty the ppl who refused to listen.
Now to wade through all of it.
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Please engage eyeballs and retain functional brain before operating fingers. | |
marcbase
join:2008-07-31
j3y-8v5
| reply to oh LOOK
By law, an employee, if asked to forward a demand for information to a company has to do it. Thats it, dont tell me Bell says that they dont have on their website, its false, THEY HAVE TO. unless bell is higher then federal law. Dont try to say that i am not right, my siter is a lawyer and both my parents work for government agencies. Face it, he has to forward it because he was ASKED to do it. | |
Deadpool
Go Sens Go
Premium,VIP
join:2001-03-29
Canada
·Bell Sympatico
| Do you happen to have a link that supports your claim of it being "federal law"?
That aside, I've already made it clear that I couldn't have forwarded the info anyhow.
Why?
Because the only informattion root9/tudmax PM'd me was a phone number. No first name, no last name, no B1, no address, no payment info, etc...
Nothing that could prove who the phone number belongs to that can't be found in a phone book.
And guess what? The Privacy Ombudsman would have asked me for that info - which I don't have.
And you'd think that if root9/tudmax was actually serious about this that he/she would have PM'd me the additional info I needed by now when I stated as much many days ago, but no, that hasn't been done.
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Disclaimer: If I express an opinion, it is my own opinion, not that of Bell or its related companies. | |
marcbase
join:2008-07-31
j3y-8v5
| reply to oh LOOK
As i said in a previous post, if he doesnt give you the information like the b1 or adress etc, you dont have to forward it because you cant prove his identity. Freedom of information is on the human rights charter isnt it? And by federal law, canada has to follow the charter of human rights. | |
sbrook
Premium,Mod
join:2001-12-14
H0H 0H0 | Again someone makes the mistake of assuming the charter applies to all and sundry. The charter applies to government and agencies of government in enacting and enforcing laws. Any protection you gain from the charter comes from other legislation. | |
marcbase
join:2008-07-31
j3y-8v5 | reply to oh LOOK
Im not talking about any protection here... read carefully, im talking about the right to information and YES canada applies this right to everything and everyone and every business in Canada. no exception whatsoever | |
Bob605
@cia.com
| As any person who has even been involved in major corporate litigation will tell you, you must effect service of a legal notice upon the designated party. For example, if you serve the complaint to the incorrect person or office or deisgnated officer (usually privacy office), it isn't considered a valid notice.
This stuff happens all the time, especially in government because often in a case where the gov't hires a private law firm to handle a case, a party frequently serves the in house counsel with a notice or order. This doesn't start the clock ticking because it was improper when it is specified that a certain party is the designated recipient of all notices. | |
drjp81
join:2006-01-09
canada
·TELUS
·TekSavvy Solutions..
| reply to marcbase
There are different laws that may apply here. 2 that I know of (for Mark's benefit, in French):
1-Loi sur l'accès à l'information ( L.R., 1985, ch. A-1 )
2-Loi sur la protection des renseignements personnels et les documents électroniques ( 2000, ch. 5 )
I think the second one my be pertinent as to Marc's argument/opinion: Here's the link : »lois.justice.gc.ca/fr/ShowTdm/cs/P-8.6///fr
Though the text (at a glance) doesn't seem to state exactly a defined and single procedure on how to obtain verification of the information to be verified, but it does say that ALL personally identifiable information must be disclosed and for transparency reasons, easily obtainable from the private corporation/entity.
If you look at part Annex 1, you may find important information on exactly what dispositions Bell should have endeavored and where it may have failed to do so. In any case a complaint to the commissioner is anonymous as outlined in the first part of the document.
If one is inclined to argue that throttling is violating privacy, I think this is the avenue to have that debate settled, once and for all.
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Cheers! | |
mordin
42 inches of 1080p
Premium
join:2005-05-28
Moncton, NB
| reply to marcbase
I was going to tell you to find where it says all employees must pass on a request for information but I figured you wouldn't bother so I found the section.
No where in there does it say anything of the sort. All a Bell employee has to do is tell the person requesting the information who to contact & how to go about it. As stated in 4.8.2 below...
4.8.2
The information made available shall include
(a) the name or title, and the address, of the person who is accountable for the organization’s policies and practices and to whom complaints or inquiries can be forwarded;
(b) the means of gaining access to personal information held by the organization;
(c) a description of the type of personal information held by the organization, including a general account of its use;
(d) a copy of any brochures or other information that explain the organization’s policies, standards, or codes; and
(e) what personal information is made available to related organizations (e.g., subsidiaries).
4.8.3
An organization may make information on its policies and practices available in a variety of ways. The method chosen depends on the nature of its business and other considerations. For example, an organization may choose to make brochures available in its place of business, mail information to its customers, provide online access, or establish a toll-free telephone number.
4.9 Principle 9 — Individual Access
Upon request, an individual shall be informed of the existence, use, and disclosure of his or her personal information and shall be given access to that information. An individual shall be able to challenge the accuracy and completeness of the information and have it amended as appropriate.
Note: In certain situations, an organization may not be able to provide access to all the personal information it holds about an individual. Exceptions to the access requirement should be limited and specific. The reasons for denying access should be provided to the individual upon request. Exceptions may include information that is prohibitively costly to provide, information that contains references to other individuals, information that cannot be disclosed for legal, security, or commercial proprietary reasons, and information that is subject to solicitor-client or litigation privilege.
4.9.1
Upon request, an organization shall inform an individual whether or not the organization holds personal information about the individual. Organizations are encouraged to indicate the source of this information. The organization shall allow the individual access to this information. However, the organization may choose to make sensitive medical information available through a medical practitioner. In addition, the organization shall provide an account of the use that has been made or is being made of this information and an account of the third parties to which it has been disclosed.
4.9.2
An individual may be required to provide sufficient information to permit an organization to provide an account of the existence, use, and disclosure of personal information. The information provided shall only be used for this purpose.
4.9.3
In providing an account of third parties to which it has disclosed personal information about an individual, an organization should attempt to be as specific as possible. When it is not possible to provide a list of the organizations to which it has actually disclosed information about an individual, the organization shall provide a list of organizations to which it may have disclosed information about the individual.
4.9.4
An organization shall respond to an individual’s request within a reasonable time and at minimal or no cost to the individual. The requested information shall be provided or made available in a form that is generally understandable. For example, if the organization uses abbreviations or codes to record information, an explanation shall be provided.
4.9.5
When an individual successfully demonstrates the inaccuracy or incompleteness of personal information, the organization shall amend the information as required. Depending upon the nature of the information challenged, amendment involves the correction, deletion, or addition of information. Where appropriate, the amended information shall be transmitted to third parties having access to the information in question.
4.9.6
When a challenge is not resolved to the satisfaction of the individual, the substance of the unresolved challenge shall be recorded by the organization. When appropriate, the existence of the unresolved challenge shall be transmitted to third parties having access to the information in question.
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root9
join:2005-04-08
Kitchener, ON
| reply to Deadpool
Oh you got it all wrong deadpool. I didn't make a request to anyone else but YOU on purpose. And I'm still making it seriously!
Why? Because in most of your posts you blab about how others should look up the laws, rules or whatever and prove it to you. You think this is going to hide you from misinformation that you spread? Not in my books. A large number of us have had enough!
If you are going to blab about CAIP or anything on here then YOU better show up with some laws and policies etc. instead of weaseling out of it by putting the onus on users.
Your job is to provide customer satisfaction in these forums. Therefore my challenge still stands!
Seems like I'm going to have to explain to you and everyone how YOU should be doing your job.
1- you were given my info
2- pass it on to appropriate party at Bell
3- the party will determine whether whether I'm for real or not. This way you don't get to know exactly who I am and privacy is kept at proper levels.
4- then this party will forward it to more appropriate party to deal with.
As for your CAIP comments: I want to see YOUR comprehensive proof substantiating your argument, legal or otherwise.
And I'd appreciate the mod. to leave this post as is. TIA
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Please engage eyeballs and retain functional brain before operating fingers. | |
DKS
Damn Kidney Stones
Premium,ExMod 2002
join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON
clubs:
·Bell Sympatico
| said by root9 :Seems like I'm going to have to explain to you and everyone how YOU should be doing your job. 1- you were given my info DP says all you gave him was a telephone number. This is not sufficient. You have not followed the proper form.
2- pass it on to appropriate party at Bell This is something DP is not allowed to do, no matter what kind of evidence you quote. He also pointed out the proper avenue you had to take, through Bell's privacy officer.
3- the party will determine whether whether I'm for real or not. This way you don't get to know exactly who I am and privacy is kept at proper levels.
4- then this party will forward it to more appropriate party to deal with. And because the tests of 1 & 2 have not been met, the matter can not proceed.
And I'd appreciate the mod. to leave this post as is. TIA
Frankly, because this whole thread has drifted so far from the original topic, the whole thing should be nuked off the face of the earth. But I'd settle for a thread lock. 
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Need-based health care not greed-based health care. | |
marcbase
join:2008-07-31
j3y-8v5 | reply to Bob605
... no
define designated party, because in this case, the designated party is Bell
If i tell the guy from Bell to forward my hand written demand to the appropriate party then yes they have to do it | |
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