fkuyjfuky
@cia.com
| reply to oh LOOK
Re: CAIP debunks Bell Canada throttling claim
I think I'll jump in here and ask this question: In what way do you believe a carrier should ensure "fairness" when their is contention in the network? I'm going to say that capacity expansion isn't infinite and that much of the capacity expansion in the nice charts at the ATM/Ethernet aggregation/backhaul/transport layer is also used by things other than GAS: it now carries toll traffic, DMS trunks, IPVPN, VPLS, VoIP, broadcast video, etc.
For example, if their is contention, how can we ensure 1 user doesn't get more than his share at the expense of others in the same congested element? Should it be capped as 30GB peak period per month? Should it use a token bucket system like Sat. internet companies such as hughes do where once you use your share, you get throttled back? |
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DKS
Damn Kidney Stones
Premium,ExMod 2002
join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON
clubs:
 ·Bell Sympatico
| reply to En Enfer
said by En Enfer  :In your review, you wrote "Excellent value for money." as you're paying 47$ per MONTH. 47 BUCKS!!! I suspect you're expecting a lane of highway reserved to you for that price and you already expressed your anger at crazy bad bad pirates who dare stepping on your precious lane, even if your computer is shut off, and you will do anything to protect the 47$ per month you're paying for. But you're wrong! The internet is a SHARED highway. Pay 30$, pay 47$, pay even 500$ for a T1, the result remains the same: The internet is SHARED. I did not say it wasn't shared. But the internet is privately owned.
As for my consumer choices, what right to you have to pass judgement on my personal decisions? I have the fastest profile available in my area. I am not throttled. I have unlimited download ability. I have 1000 minutes per month of long distance. That is excellent value for the money I pay, thank you. Combined with other bundling benefits (discounts on other services) as well as many years of being a Bell customer, it pays off.
Your mileage may vary, of course. But you have no right to pass judgement on my consumer decisions, just as I do not pass judgement on yours.
--
Need-based health care not greed-based health care. |
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Robrr
join:2008-04-19
Toronto, ON
·TekSavvy Solutions..
 ·Rogers Hi-Speed
| reply to DKS
said by DKS : Just managing their network (which they are allowed to do, per their contract with their customers). This is fine and dandy but BUT proper notice has to be given when things like this are going to happen.
Where I work we deal with a lot of corporations large and small and if we were to simply go ahead and start changing things in our core network without any prior notification we would have A LOT of angry customers screaming at us VERY fast and we would probably be out of business in short order.
Network management is fine like I said but all people involved should be notified prior to it happening so that everyone is aware. In the case of Bell that also includes the consumer.
Now the way that Bell has gone about their traffic management is dirty and underhanded to say the least. No one was notified of the changes they were going to implement and the methods they have chosen are questionable as well. If proper notification had been given then I am sure that in particular the wholesalers and Bell could have sat down and found terms they agreed to.
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sbrook
Premium,Mod
join:2001-12-14
H0H 0H0
·Rogers Hi-Speed
Host:
Rogers
Bell Canada
| The problem is that ISPs have gone beyond "managing their network" through the use of these DPI boxes to "managing the services used by their customers". If an ISP wants to "manage its network" then by all means, just don't dictate the services I can use in the process.
The devices supplied by Cisco are actually called "Service Engines" ... not "Net maintenance engines". |
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Robrr
join:2008-04-19
Toronto, ON
·TekSavvy Solutions..
·Rogers Hi-Speed
| reply to DKS
said by DKS :There is a thievery aspect to downloading copyright material, yes. And as someone who makes their living creating intellectual property, I have to defend my right to have my work protected and to obtain compensation for my work. This is a very touchy issue and the problem is no one agrees. For example the RIAA has been screaming about how they are losing so much money because of copyright infringement and yet some of the artists support it as it has given them more exposure to the masses
»www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/6151.cfm
So the question to me anyways becomes who is more concerned about compensation for their work. The people producing the material or the corporations that distribute the material.
There is disagreement even at the level of the people creating the material and until there is an agreement at this level I don't think anyone above it can make decisions as to what should be allowed etc at higher levels |
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Sean
join:2004-01-23
Ottawa
·Bell Sympatico
1 edit | reply to oh LOOK
I'm not sure if DKS was serious when he said the "internet is privately owned," but no one seemed to point this out.
Just to make it clear, the internet is NOT privately owned. In fact, the internet, since it does not have a central hub, is not owned by ANYONE. It is, and always should remain, a collection of independant networks engaging in the FREE TRANSFER OF INFORMATION.
Perhaps this incorrect fundamental understanding of the internet is what is causing DKS to have such views on the matter?
Again, DKS, to make it clear, the ISP does not OWN the internet. No one does. Your monthly fee goes towards "renting equipent" either at your side (modem) or at their side (basically all of their equipment) in order to secure a connection to the free internet.
The internet is free to connect to. The devices required to connect to it, are not. |
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jibby
join:2008-03-31 | DKS must be either retired or unemployed, based on the amount of free time he dedicated to having Bell fix his 911 problems and the time he spends here defending Bells every move. |
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DKS
Damn Kidney Stones
Premium,ExMod 2002
join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON
clubs:
·Bell Sympatico
| reply to Sean
said by Sean :Just to make it clear, the internet is NOT privately owned. The fibre optic cable, upon which the internet depends for its existence, is privately owned. Very privately owned. 
In fact, the internet, since it does not have a central hub, is not owned by ANYONE. It is, and always should remain, a collection of independant networks engaging in the FREE TRANSFER OF INFORMATION. That is the silliest statement I have seen in a very long time. Exchange of electrons (or photons) is not free. It never has been.
Again, DKS, to make it clear, the ISP does not OWN the internet. No one does. Your monthly fee goes towards "renting equipent" either at your side (modem) or at their side (basically all of their equipment) in order to secure a connection to the free internet.
The internet is free to connect to. The devices required to connect to it, are not.
And this is the second silliest statement I have seen in a long, long time. 
--
Need-based health care not greed-based health care. |
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Robrr
join:2008-04-19
Toronto, ON
·TekSavvy Solutions..
·Rogers Hi-Speed
2 edits | said by DKS :The fibre optic cable, upon which the internet depends for its existence, is privately owned. Very privately owned. This I can agree with while thinking about your logic with regards to the network and who owns it.
However once again when you have a network that you let millions use and you want to make changes to how you manage it people must to be notified. |
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root9
join:2005-04-08
Kitchener, ON
| reply to DKS
Woooo.
If I or anyone pays for High Speed UNLIMITED service then I/we better get it. I really don't care if you Bell have to run naked down the street to provide what you Bell promised. If they don't I'll charge 'em, if still they don't I'll run them out of business. "And that's a fact Jack." Another words this is reality of business and life 
If anyone breaches my privacy, as DPI does, under the LAWS of Canada they better start packin' straight to court or suffer the consequences. It also leaves them open to same inspection of their data, including their personal info, their family or anything they might do. Bell sells user phone lists to Spammers then so will I, with all their management and corporate info as well.
Now if someone breaches a contract they don't have a leg to stand on, and I don't care if they call themselves GOD because I definitely don't see Bell as anything but a crocked dishonorable business.
Bell has the right to deliver my packets to their intended destination, NO ifs or butts! It messes with them it's breach of contract, original contract and not the one they changed to their liking.
Bell or anyone is not above God or any person, In Canada we are all equal. If anyone studies even the basics of Law they will find there are 4 levels, in this order:
1- God and the universe
2- all free persons who are equal
3- business law
4- common law
I don't see Bell as a business above God and all free persons who are equal. As a matter of fact Bell is below everyone. Therefore Bell and business law have less rights than free persons. Keep this in mind for next time 
--
Please engage eyeballs and retain functional brain before operating fingers. |
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DKS
Damn Kidney Stones
Premium,ExMod 2002
join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON
clubs:
·Bell Sympatico
| reply to Robrr
said by Robrr :said by DKS :The fibre optic cable, upon which the internet depends for its existence, is privately owned. Very privately owned. This I can agree with while thinking about your logic with regards to the network and who owns it. However once again when you have a network that you let millions use and you want to make changes to how you manage it people must to be notified. People were notified. It was observed and confirmed here, for one thing. The disagreements between CAIP members and Bell, however, is their contractual dispute.
--
Need-based health care not greed-based health care. |
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DKS
Damn Kidney Stones
Premium,ExMod 2002
join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON
clubs:
·Bell Sympatico
| reply to root9
said by root9 :Woooo. If I or anyone pays for High Speed UNLIMITED service then I/we better get it. I really don't care if you Bell have to run naked down the street to provide what you Bell promised. If they don't I'll charge 'em, if still they don't I'll run them out of business. "And that's a fact Jack." Another words this is reality of business and life I think this is the elevenhundreth time I've heard this point on DSLR since 200. It was puffery then and it's puffery now.
If anyone breaches my privacy, as DPI does, under the LAWS of Canada they better start packin' straight to court or suffer the consequences. What law? The point is untested before the courts and currently before the CRTC. What you think is irrelevant.
Bell sells user phone lists to Spammers Evidence?
Now if someone breaches a contract they don't have a leg to stand on, and I don't care if they call themselves GOD because I definitely don't see Bell as anything but a crocked dishonorable business. But you have to prove that before a court for your remedy. So far, all that has been seen and heard is bupkus.
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Need-based health care not greed-based health care. |
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En Enfer
This account has been compromised
join:2003-07-25
Montreal, QC
·VIF Internet
1 edit | reply to DKS
said by DKS :I did not say it wasn't shared. But the internet is privately owned. False.
The internet belongs to nobody and everybody.
quote:
The Internet is a global system of interconnected computer networks that interchange data by packet switching using the standardized Internet Protocol (IP) Suite. It is a "network of networks" that consists of millions of private and public, academic, business, and government networks of local to global scope that are linked by copper wires, fiber-optic cables, wireless connections, and other technologies.
Source: »en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_internet
Still, a portion of any "provider to end-user" network can be filtered for any reason (think Chinese ISPs), but never at the upstream providers layers (think Peer1, Cogent, Teleglobe, etc.)
At work, they use a proxy to block access to some websites and contents: youtube, adult-themed websites, streaming audio/video, hotmail, etc. But the internet still does NOT belong to my employers, and does NOT belong to the ISP they're using.
said by DKS :I have the fastest profile available in my area. Good for you. That doesn't make you the king.
said by DKS :I am not throttled. Why would you be? You never use P2P software. Meaningless detail.
said by DKS :I have unlimited download ability. You never exceed or even reach near the 60Gb barrier. Meaningless detail.
said by DKS :I have 1000 minutes per month of long distance. You don't get them for free. And on top of that, you have to pay 6$ of network access fees because you have a LD plan, even if you don't make any LD call this month.
said by DKS :That is excellent value for the money I pay, thank you. Combined with other bundling benefits (discounts on other services) as well as many years of being a Bell customer, it pays off. Nobody gets benefits because they're a long time customer. You get benefits ONLY if you choose a bundle, if you call retention, or accept a winback offer.
said by DKS :Your mileage may vary, of course. But you have no right to pass judgement on my consumer decisions, just as I do not pass judgement on yours. You already did in another thread. You try everytime to tell everyone in any forum that Bell OWNS the internet and all wholesale ISPs must shut up and abide by the rules, and their customers must stop filesharing because you judge it's illegal activities, all of them. Even if you don't mention names, I feel concerned anyways.
Sans rancunes.
--
"I unofficially declare Beaver Hunting Season is on!" (© DR_JAYMAHDI) |
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DKS
Damn Kidney Stones
Premium,ExMod 2002
join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON
clubs:
·Bell Sympatico
| said by En Enfer :Nobody gets benefits because they're a long time customer. You get benefits ONLY if you choose a bundle, if you call retention, or accept a winback offer. Wrong. I have received a number of benefits over the years, as a long time customer.They include discounts, extremely favourable treatment of my account and so on. Most recently it was a credit of $100 for text messages.
said by DKS :Your mileage may vary, of course. But you have no right to pass judgement on my consumer decisions, just as I do not pass judgement on yours. You already did in another thread. You try everytime to tell everyone in any forum that Bell OWNS the internet and all wholesale ISPs must shut up and abide by the rules, and their customers must stop filesharing because you judge it's illegal activities, all of them. Even if you don't mention names, I feel concerned anyways. Sans rancunes.
You also have no right to pass judgement on my circumstances and choices. Not everyone sees Bell as evil. Not everyone views the CAIP position as correct or ethical. After all, in a competitive system, where the rule of contract governs business relationships, it is that, in the end, which is decisive, not an airy fairy position about the supposed nature of the internet.
--
Need-based health care not greed-based health care. |
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sbrook
Premium,Mod
join:2001-12-14
H0H 0H0 | Enough of the personal jabs
ABSOLUTELY ENOUGH!!! |
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En Enfer
This account has been compromised
join:2003-07-25
Montreal, QC
·VIF Internet
1 edit | reply to DKS
said by DKS :Wrong. I have received a number of benefits over the years, as a long time customer.They include discounts, extremely favourable treatment of my account and so on. But we have to agree that you didn't received them by sitting at home and pay your bills in time as any normal customer would do. You had to call them or they had to call you or send you an offer that you had to agree on.
said by DKS :Most recently it was a credit of $100 for text messages. Same here, they will never give a credit if you don't ask them for a credit.
said by DKS :And how have you determined that the 'internet" is owned by Bell"? I have said that the internet is privately owned inso far as its physical existence is privately owned. There are publicly owned parts, yes, but to the largest extent it is privately owned. Largest extent... hmm, ok, so if there's an owner, my question is, WHO OWNS THE INTERNET THEN ??? (I want a name!)
sbrook , I'm waiting patiently for an answer to my last question, feel free to lock it after if it's your intention.
--
"I unofficially declare Beaver Hunting Season is on!" (© DR_JAYMAHDI) |
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sbrook
Premium,Mod
join:2001-12-14
H0H 0H0
·Rogers Hi-Speed
Host:
Rogers
Bell Canada
| The "Internet" is not an individual entity therefore cannot be "owned". It is a co-operative venture providing interconnectivity either free, by swapping or at a paid price.
Access to the internet is a service provided by companies, organisations etc either free or at a price.
Whilst the upper levels of connectvoty of the net are free access, Internet access providers, predominantly at a residential level seem to believe that they have the right to limit your connectivity in that they say that they own that part of the network so they can set the rules for it.
Individual parts of the internet are indeed "owned", but the internet as an overall concept is not. |
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En Enfer
This account has been compromised
join:2003-07-25
Montreal, QC
·VIF Internet
1 edit | reply to En Enfer
said by En Enfer : sbrook , I'm waiting patiently for an answer to my last question, feel free to lock it after if it's your intention. *ahem*, I meant, I'm waiting for an answer from DKS to backup his theory of "the internet is privately owned" with names and it's coverage area if possible. I wasn't honestly expecting an answer from you (but your answer is still good)... Sorry for the confusion.
--
"I unofficially declare Beaver Hunting Season is on!" (© DR_JAYMAHDI) |
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Robrr
join:2008-04-19
Toronto, ON
·TekSavvy Solutions..
·Rogers Hi-Speed
| reply to DKS
said by DKS :People were notified. It was observed and confirmed here, for one thing. The disagreements between CAIP members and Bell, however, is their contractual dispute. I am going to have to look around for some proof that Sympatico customers were notified before the throttling began in November. If you could provide me with a link to this that would be very helpful.
I have done some looking into this before this discussion came up and I didn't see any proof of this but I will go back and look some more incase I am wrong. |
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Robrr
join:2008-04-19
Toronto, ON
·TekSavvy Solutions..
·Rogers Hi-Speed
1 edit | reply to oh LOOK
Further to my last post, essentially what am looking for is the following
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Your Service Provider will notify you of any material amendment to this Service Agreement or of any material change to the Service in advance by posting notice of such change at www.agreements.sympatico.ca, by sending you notice via email to your Sympatico parent email address or to another email address provided by you to Your Service Provider (in which case it is your responsibility to ensure that such email address remains current at all times) or by using any other notice method that will likely come to your attention. -Total Internet and Sympatico Internet Services Agreement
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This is what I am looking for proof of. |
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