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Eug
join:2007-04-14
Toronto, ON
1 edit |  I'm shocked at how well Powerline Networking works (Netgear)
I decided instead to try power line networking and as an experiment bought some cheap "200 Mbps" refurb Netgear HDX101 Powerline HD Ethernet Adapters.
Well, I was shocked to see that I am getting real world file transfer speeds of 30 Mbps with pings around 4-5 ms, with the ability to stream 1080p H.264 perfectly. (I've tried streaming Quicktime files up to 12 Mbps so far, which is the highest bitrate for Quicktime HD downloads.) What's really shocking though is that the signal is going through two separate electrical panels. I needed the network to extend to the opposite end of the house, but that part of the house was added later so it got its own electrical panel. My software configuration utility is reporting the connection is good for about 30-50 Mbps so it's in the right ballpark. Actually, if I put the two adapters in the same room on the same electrical circuit, the software reports 150 Mbps is possible. That would max out my 100 Mbps network if true, but I haven't tested it yet. Oh and I even get good network speeds in the garden, with the electrical outlets outside. 
BTW, ironically, I am creating a multi-node wireless network anyway. However, the difference is that I'm using el-cheapo wireless 802.11g access points (including ones I already had), because WDS is not necessary the way I'm doing it. I'm using the powerline network as the backbone and then just connecting a wireless router to each powerline network jack. This gives me not only wireless, but also a wired router to increase the number of physical Ethernet jacks per room. I hardwire my desktops and Xbox 360, but my laptops and iPhone all get full strength wireless too.
Cost per room: $37 powerline adapter + $25 cheap wireless router
Note that this ends up costing almost as much as just buying WDS routers, but the benefit here is the hardwired network is much faster and more reliable, and the wireless is more reliable too.
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Everything Apple | |
|  Cyber2lz
join:2001-11-15
Odessa, FL | Re: I'm shocked at how well Powerline Networking works (Netgear) Qcheck, which is a free download, will tell you exactly what the transfer rate will be. BTW, I have always had good luck with NetGear powerline stuff. | |
| Eug
join:2007-04-14
Toronto, ON
|  Benchmarks
Ethernet - 84 Mbps
Powerline in same room - 39 Mbps
Powerline across house - 30 Mbps
802.11g in same room - 22 Mbps
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Everything Apple | |
| ChiTang
Premium,MVM
join:2002-08-23
Alhambra, CA | Re: I'm shocked at how well Powerline Networking works (Netgear) May be the newer one overcome this shortcoming, I always have a hard time using those adaptors over 2 different electric panels (same house). Good for you.
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I used to be indecisive, now I am not sure. | |
| 
JohnInSJ
Premium
join:2003-09-22
San Jose, CA
 ·Comcast
| I was shocked how BAD it was in my house.
Same room, same circuit, new part of house was OK
Same room, same circuit, old (50 year old) part of house no link
Different room, same circuit, old part of house no link
Etc...
So, if I put two units 10' apart on brand new wiring on the same circuit, it indeed could replace a $2 Cat5e cable with $120 worth of power using gear. Needless to say it went back to the store. For me, 802.11n was able to deliver what the 2nd gen poweline ethernet could not.
But like the other poster said, congrats to you! I expect it does work well in clean, new wiring.
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My place : »www.schettino.us | |
| | ChiTang
Premium,MVM
join:2002-08-23
Alhambra, CA
| Re: I'm shocked at how well Powerline Networking works (Netgear) Regardless whether it works or not, I am happy if it semi works. In big house, I use those to extend another wirless AP. If powerline adpaptor works, use it, if not, use wireless. Nothing works in all situations, just getting to know your gears and us them the best they can offer.
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I used to be indecisive, now I am not sure. | |
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Jahntassa
What, I can have feathers
Premium
join:2006-04-14
Conway, SC
| Re: I'm shocked at how well Powerline Networking works (Netgear) I've had it work successfully in a couple of houses. But, there are a lot of factors that can make it not work.
Still, if you're looking for a way to get ethernet where there is none, it's a good thing to try out. I especially like the version where you can put one adapter near your wired router and the other adapter is an 802.11g access point. | |
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cdru
Go Colts
Premium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
| Re: I'm shocked at how well Powerline Networking works (Netgear) said by Jahntassa  :I've had it work successfully in a couple of houses. But, there are a lot of factors that can make it not work. I think this is the real reason why powerline networking isn't very successful. Some people have good luck getting things to work, even in less then idea situations. That appears to be the case with Eug .
I think many more people have had so-so or worse luck, like how JohnInSJ reports.
People just want their technology to work. So no matter how great something could be, if it's not consistent or work overwhelmingly consistently, the technology is doomed to collect dust on a shelf somewhere. | |
| | | | | Eug
join:2007-04-14
Toronto, ON
4 edits | These guys need to improve interoperability, and advertising There are two other issues:
1) Incompatible "standards". Mine works well, but is incompatible with anything else out there, even from the same company.
2) Older hardware. I betcha the vast majority of the people who have written off power line networking have not used the latest equipment. Judging by the "few" reports out there, the newer 200 Mbps equipment (of various flavours) is not only significantly faster, but may also be more reliable.
I've found very few people happy with the 14 Mbps power line networking gear, but more are happy with 85 Mbps. However, because of the cost and the less than stellar reviews of 85 Mbps gear, I waited. When some of the reviews of 200 Mbps gear came out positive and when the cost came down, I decided to give it a whirl. And, I'm very happy I did.
Related to all of this is the fact that the technology alliances can't seem to get things out in a timely fashion. IIRC, one of the reasons that Netgear went with an incompatible 200 Mbps standard initially was because the so-called "approved standard" took forever to actually come out. Technology politics and bureaucracy are to blame I'm sure, not just the technology itself.
It's this kind of dawdling which may have killed HomePNA once and for all. When I got HPNA 2.0 hardware, I was overjoyed, as it Just Worked. I anxiously waited for HPNA 3 hardware to come out... and waited... and waited... and waited. It was perpetually around the corner. It's available now, but it's almost impossible to find the stuff, and it's expensive. Even powerline networking hardware is much more common to find than HPNA 3 hardware. A few of my local computer shops have at least some flavours of powerline networking. None have any sort of HPNA hardware at all.
P.S. As for getting the technology to just work, I will have to say that powerline networking... for me... works WAY better than WiFi ever has. I've been on WiFi since the early 802.11b days. In fact, I saw a demo of 802.11b on Apple iBooks at a tech mag sponsored party before the iBooks or any other 802.11b hardware were even released. Still I've always found WiFi to be a struggle, because of wireless range, hardware compatibility, and connection reliability.
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Everything Apple | |
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Matt
Take me down to the paradise city
Premium
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC | Re: These guys need to improve interoperability, and advertising I'm also interested in HPNA v3 or the new MoCA gear but can't find the stuff anywhere. Looks like AT&T (HPNA) and Verizon (MoCA) are snapping up all the gear for their rollouts. | |
| | | | | | | Eug
join:2007-04-14
Toronto, ON
4 edits | Major HNPA rollouts said by Matt :I'm also interested in HPNA v3 or the new MoCA gear but can't find the stuff anywhere. Looks like AT&T (HPNA) and Verizon (MoCA) are snapping up all the gear for their rollouts. Hmmm... Interesting. I was not aware of this. (We don't have anything comparable happening in Canada.)
Hopefully this will ensure the widespread use of this type of hardware. Both HNPA 3.0 and MoCA seem to have a lot of potential. I had just given up on them since it has taken so long for anything to show up in the retail channel... and because I wanted something now.
BTW, I found this article from last year on AT&T's plans.
AT&T seems to think that powerline is faster but less reliable. I could see that. What I do think is ironic though is that AT&T thinks that wireless is the worst of the three. Ironic because nowadays, wireless is almost ubiquitous and it's quite cheap, yet it's still considered the worst.  I've now used HPNA 2, powerline 200 Mbps, and 802.11g, and I'd have to agree, wireless is by far the most irritating to get working properly.
said by huyvu :Eug - can I ask where you picked up your refurbs? I've seen the 85Mbps models for about $35 but not your models. I'm getting by with the older 14Mbps but there's not enough bandwidth to streaming MP3s and pics. I got mine of eBay. I have already received four, and I am waiting for 2 more. I sent you the link via PM/email.
P.S. I will have 5 powerline adapters in active use. (One of those 6 will be a backup.) Of the four I currently have plugged in, one of them is actually for my Airport Express for music streaming. My wireless signal is quite strong where the AE is located, but the AE itself simply is not that reliable over wireless (which is stupid, because that's its #1 job and marketing description). So, I'm using the powerline networking there instead, and turning off the AE's wireless completely. With the AE plugged into the powerline networking adapter via Ethernet, the connection for iTunes streaming is 100% solid. (I've only tested it a few days now though so YMMV, but it's definitely more reliable than the AE over wireless.)
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Everything Apple | |
| | | | | | huyvu
join:2001-03-25 | Eug - can I ask where you picked up your refurbs? I've seen the 85Mbps models for about $35 but not your models. I'm getting by with the older 14Mbps but there's not enough bandwidth to streaming MP3s and pics. | |
| | Eug
join:2007-04-14
Toronto, ON
4 edits | said by ChiTang :May be the newer one overcome this shortcoming, I always have a hard time using those adaptors over 2 different electric panels (same house). Good for you. Which model did you use?
said by JohnInSJ :I was shocked how BAD it was in my house. Same room, same circuit, new part of house was OK Same room, same circuit, old (50 year old) part of house no link Different room, same circuit, old part of house no link Were you using older hardware? Or the same hardware as me?
But yeah. The part of the house where my home office is located was built in the 90s, and the part of the house where my garage is located was built less than 5 years ago. So all is pretty new copper wiring. No aluminum.
I will also note that my speeds would decrease dramatically if I used a power bar. I had to plug the units directly into the wall, or else use a non-filtered extension cord.
said by Jahntassa :Still, if you're looking for a way to get ethernet where there is none, it's a good thing to try out. I especially like the version where you can put one adapter near your wired router and the other adapter is an 802.11g access point. The HDX101 line does not have any such adapter unfortunately. However, what I'm just doing is plugging in an access point to several of the HDX101s. Same result, except with two pieces instead of one. My topology is as follows.
Office: This is where my DSL router and my source HDX101 unit live. Fully covered by 802.11g, since it's built into my DSL router.
Living room (one floor below office): HDX101 for stereo system. No need for wireless router because wireless from the office is strong here. However, I tried using an Airport Express to stream music here and to provide a net connection to my HDDVD player, but I find it kinda flaky. I'm going to try using the HDX101 wired to the Airport Express instead for music streaming. I've briefly had it connected up to my HD DVD player, and the powerline bridge to it is rock solid (which it wasn't when I used the Airport Express to bridge the connection.)
Garage (in new part of house): HDX101 and 802.11g access point. (The wireless from the office is too weak to be reliable. It usually seems to work with my MacBook, but won't work with my iBook or iPhone.)
Bedroom (in new part of house): HDX101 and 802.11g access point. Wireless from the office is too weak for anything. Even my MacBook can't see the office WiFi here.
Here is a topology map.
You'll note that the wireless networks overlap considerably, but that's fine because that way I don't have any dead spots or unreliable connections. Also, it works out that I "just" need 3 access points, which is perfect. 802.11g has three independent and non-overlapping channels: 1, 6, 11 and consequently those are the three channels I'm using.
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Everything Apple | |
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Matt
Take me down to the paradise city
Premium
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC
 ·North State Commun..
| Thanks for this post. I heard that powerline generally works better the newer the construction. I had planned on using a couple of these, but decided to go with 802.11n draft 2.0 stuff. I'm seeing 100Mbps real-world throughput with it.
I still may pick up some of these powerline adapters for HD streaming to my 360 though. Probably be cheaper to grab some of these rather than an 802.11n bridge. | |
| | Eug
join:2007-04-14
Toronto, ON
4 edits | Bridged wireless said by Matt
I still may pick up some of these powerline adapters for HD streaming to my 360 though. Probably be cheaper to grab some of these rather than an 802.11n bridge.
My venture into powerline networking was specifically because of my Xbox 360. The home theatre (which is a converted garage) is too far for reliable WiFi when the wireless router is in my home office. For this reason bridging wouldn't work well either, unless I put yet another access point in between to repeat the signal. However, I'm told WDS WiFi networks can be flaky (and you lose speed which every repeat), and they're not cheap, esp. when you need multiple ones.
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Everything Apple | |
| Eug
join:2007-04-14
Toronto, ON
| I plugged the unit directly into the wall in one of the bedrooms and the config software was reporting pretty good speeds (faster than the garage). IIRC it was reporting somewhere in the 100+ Mbps range.
I put the thing on a cheap $2 household extension cord and now the software is reporting 7 Mbps. Wowsers.
Yes, poor wiring makes a huge difference.
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Everything Apple | |
| 
Anonymous_
Anonymous
Premium
join:2004-06-21
127.0.0.1
clubs:
1 edit | give us real life speeds plz | |
| | Eug
join:2007-04-14
Toronto, ON
3 edits | Real speeds I already posted benches earlier:
Some numbers (all through same router):
Ethernet - 84 Mbps
Powerline in same room - 39 Mbps
Powerline across house - 30 Mbps
802.11g in same room - 22 Mbps
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BTW, for an outlet in the garden using a cheap extension cord, I didn't actually do a formal test like I did above, but a DSLReports speed test for the iPhone gave me 2.4 Mbps. (My cable speed is usually 4+ Mbps.)
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Everything Apple | |
| | | Eug
join:2007-04-14
Toronto, ON
4 edits | Re: I'm shocked at how well Powerline Networking works (Netgear) said by jaa :I have found them hit or miss, mostly miss. I like to use them for adding an additional AP to cover large houses. Sometimes it works, sometimes not. Have not figured out what makes them work or not - I just try them in all possible outlet locations, and hope for the best. One thing I have never gotten to work is if the outlets are on different main panels. Many large houses have 400amp service - two panels, 200amp each located next to each other. I have gotten them to work if one circuit is on a subpanel. I have three panels.
Older part of the house - 200 A panel
Newer part of the house - 125 A main panel, and 125 A subpanel
Note that the 200 A panel is in a completely different room from the other two panels. The 200A panel is physically located in the older part of the house, and supplies my home office. The other 125Ax2 panels are located in the newer part of the house close to the garage. I am getting 30 Mbps real world across main panels (unless my understanding about the panel setup and their heirarchy is incorrect), from my office to my garage. The adapter in the garage is actually on a brand new circuit. I tried it on a different circuit in the garage and got slower speeds (but it still worked). (I put in the extra new circuit because I need more than 15A in the garage.)
Also, did you specifically use the so-called "200 Mbps" powerline networking hardware? The HDX101 is one of the flavours of "200 Mbps" (but it is not compatible with HomePlug AV's version at the same speed).
I figure if I'm only getting 2.4 Mbps in the garden on 200 Mbps hardware, those using 14 Mbps hardware might get nothing at all.
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Everything Apple | |
| Eug
join:2007-04-14
Toronto, ON
2 edits | The previous owners of this place had the forethought to run a power line out to the back of the yard when they built a gazebo there. Perfect, as I've now run powerline networking to the gazebo.
Front view - What we see sitting in the gazebo.
Back view - Usually not seen
I wonder how long this will last out in the elements, but at least it's covered from the rain, and I'll bring it in when it gets cold outside.
I transferred a 680 MB file in 7 minutes and 28 seconds on that connection (via wireless), for a speed of 12.7 Mbps. That's slower than any of my in-house connections, but hey, it's not as if I care about streaming HD to my garden. 
I had tried sticking a wireless access point in a window of the house facing the gazebo, but I get no wireless connection at at all at that distance. Powerline solves the problem simply, with an uber stable connection.
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Everything Apple | |
| Eug
join:2007-04-14
Toronto, ON
| Pings to another computer attached to the same local (wired) router:
64 bytes from 192.168.x.xx: icmp_seq=5 ttl=64 time=0.309 ms
64 bytes from 192.168.x.xx: icmp_seq=6 ttl=64 time=0.329 ms
64 bytes from 192.168.x.xx: icmp_seq=7 ttl=64 time=0.290 ms
64 bytes from 192.168.x.xx: icmp_seq=8 ttl=64 time=0.280 ms
64 bytes from 192.168.x.xx: icmp_seq=9 ttl=64 time=0.365 ms
Pings to garage (where I get 30 Mbps via power line, across two panels):
64 bytes from 192.168.x.xx: icmp_seq=5 ttl=127 time=3.963 ms
64 bytes from 192.168.x.xx: icmp_seq=6 ttl=127 time=3.376 ms
64 bytes from 192.168.x.xx: icmp_seq=7 ttl=127 time=31.770 ms
64 bytes from 192.168.x.xx: icmp_seq=8 ttl=127 time=4.468 ms
64 bytes from 192.168.x.xx: icmp_seq=9 ttl=127 time=3.625 ms
Pings to gazebo in garden (where I get 12 Mbps via power line):
64 bytes from 192.168.x.xx: icmp_seq=5 ttl=127 time=33.203 ms
64 bytes from 192.168.x.xx: icmp_seq=6 ttl=127 time=11.134 ms
64 bytes from 192.168.x.xx: icmp_seq=7 ttl=127 time=5.945 ms
64 bytes from 192.168.x.xx: icmp_seq=8 ttl=127 time=21.944 ms
64 bytes from 192.168.x.xx: icmp_seq=9 ttl=127 time=62.885 ms
So it would seem that as the power line network speeds drop, the latencies increase as well. Furthermore that latency increase can be quite substantial. Luckily, I'm not gaming in the gazebo.
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Everything Apple | |
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