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Forums » AT&T Backbone Sees 20% P2P Drop » This is alarming
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ninjatutle
Premium

join:2006-01-02
San Ramon, CA

This is alarming

20% of all traffic consist of illegal activity.

All those users lost to Comcast must be the heavy users. Good news for the rest of the legit users.

aciddrink

join:2000-08-26
Kailua, HI
·Hawaiian Telcom

Re: This is alarming

said by ninjatutle See Profile :

20% of all traffic consist of illegal activity.
90% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

hopeflicker
Capitalism breeds greed
Premium
join:2003-04-03
Long Beach, CA

Re: This is alarming

said by aciddrink See Profile :

said by ninjatutle See Profile :

20% of all traffic consist of illegal activity.
90% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
and 50% of users pull numbers out of their ass without posting links to their claims.
--
Religion does three things quite effectively: Divides people, Controls people, Deludes people.
cornelius785

join:2006-10-26
Worcester, MA

Re: This is alarming

with 98% confidence that 90% of the people reading will believe it

avd706
insert annoying animated gif here
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Union, NJ

There are

There are lies, dammed lies and statistics...

backfeed
is giving feedback

join:2002-12-16
Peru, IN

Re: There are

Mark Twain??

NetAdmin
CCNA

join:2008-05-22

Re: There are

»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lies,_damn···atistics

Benjamin Disraeli... Someone who obviously failed stats.
--
---
Eleven years of carrying The Clue Bat...

ninjatutle
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San Ramon, CA
·Sprint Mobile Broa..


1 edit

Re: This is alarming

said by hopeflicker See Profile :

said by aciddrink See Profile :

said by ninjatutle See Profile :

20% of all traffic consist of illegal activity.
90% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
and 50% of users pull numbers out of their ass without posting links to their claims.
RTFA

"about 1/3 Web (non video/audio streams), 1/3 Web video/audio streams, and 1/5 P2P."

hopeflicker
Capitalism breeds greed
Premium
join:2003-04-03
Long Beach, CA

Re: This is alarming

said by ninjatutle See Profile :

RTFA

"about 1/3 Web (non video/audio streams), 1/3 Web video/audio streams, and 1/5 P2P."
And you believe what they say?
--
Religion does three things quite effectively: Divides people, Controls people, Deludes people.

ninjatutle
Premium

join:2006-01-02
San Ramon, CA

1 edit

Re: This is alarming

IDK, ask Karl Bode See Profile, he was the person who posted it. Why don't you question his character?

hopeflicker
Capitalism breeds greed
Premium
join:2003-04-03
Long Beach, CA

Re: This is alarming

Ummm, ATT claims this:

AT&T says that as of June, AT&T traffic was about 1/3 Web (non video/audio streams), 1/3 Web video/audio streams, and 1/5 P2P.

so i ask again, do you believe this?
--
Religion does three things quite effectively: Divides people, Controls people, Deludes people.

ninjatutle
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join:2006-01-02
San Ramon, CA
·Sprint Mobile Broa..

Re: This is alarming

Again, I will refer you to Mr. Karl Bode See Profile if you feel his reporting is inadequate or the integrity of his linked reports are inaccurate.

This is going in circles.....

FLengineer
Premium
join:2007-06-26
Leesburg, FL

1 edit
That sounds about right to me. But, I'm lost in the convo here, are you saying that P2P = illegal?

EDIT: Question is to ninjatutle

ninjatutle
Premium

join:2006-01-02
San Ramon, CA
·Sprint Mobile Broa..


1 edit

Re: This is alarming

I'm not buying the endless Linux disto downloads, World Of War patches and home movies to grandmother so yes, ILLEGAL material is being passed.

You know very well as with everyone here, what P2P is mainly used for.

EDIT: Reply to Flenginear

pspcrazy
Anime Freak

join:2008-02-06
San Diego, CA
·DSL EXTREME

Re: This is alarming

Well what about Anime which is around 95 percent of my bittorrent downloads. Do you consider those illegal? Anime companies in the U.S can't touch anything other then the ones they licensed. They are not illegal unless licensed in the u.s thus not making them illegal. Then again each anime fan has his own idea on it.
axus

join:2001-06-18
Washington, DC
·Verizon Online DSL

Re: This is alarming

Actually I believe we have some treaties with other countries protecting each others' copyrights:

»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pa···treaties

The anime companies just don't have an RIAA running around suing people and spreading the word that there's free stuff on the 'net. Probably to their benefit!
TheWizardhfl

join:2004-08-05

See, you are a little misguided there. Anime when produced in japan is internationally copyrighted. And yes, they have pursued methods to put an end to some of the distribution. Media Factory Inc. is well known for their issuing of C&D orders to anime "fansubbers" and Bandai has issued warnings publicly in the past regarding specific title releases.. For the most part, anime fansubs tend to rest in a gray area. The majority of production companies simply choose to overlook the issue for various reasons ranging from lack of resources to fear of alienating their consumer base.

When an anime is licensed in the US, the most notable change in regards to the topic is that the US company who licensed the title locally has the right to file C&D orders and lawsuits against anyone distributing unauthorized releases of their titles online.

It's not about who has their own idea on the matter or not. It's a matter of it's still illegal either way. The only difference is who has the right to pursue the matter legally.

FLengineer
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Leesburg, FL
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1 edit
P2P = Illegal ??

Yes some of it is, some of it isn't. I bet you also think all Muslims are terrorist, too.

»www.bittorrent.com/
»revision3.com/
»beta.legaltorrents.com/
May Fav »torrentfreak.com/sundance-winner···torrent/
That's a good movie and was released on P2P by the producers.

You say all P2P is Illegal, I just provided proof that P2P is NOT Illegal. Revise your statement to Sharing Copyrighted material VIA P2P is Illegal.

EDIT: You mentioned World of Warcraft being insignificant.
2.5M players in North America.
2.4.0 patch distributed via P2P a week in advance was 256.11MB
That's 91.5TB A DAY

Dogfather
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Re: This is alarming

Take one look at what the top search results are on BT search engines and you'll see that the mass of traffic is illegal. And so what if it is. Before BT it was Kazaa, before that Napster, before that Usenet...and after BT it will be something else.

The ISPs and content creators will NEVER defeat piracy and in their efforts all they do is piss off legit users of their services or products.

Matt
Take me down to the paradise city
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join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC
·North State Commun..

said by ninjatutle See Profile :

You know very well as with everyone here, what P2P is mainly used for.
That is an unreasonable, tiresome, non-factual based argument. We all ASSUME we know what it is being used for. Just like up until this article was posted, you probably would have ASSUMED that P2P was the majority of internet traffic.

Until a study is done that proves that the majority of P2P traffic is illegal, I simply can't believe it and spewing the corporate line based on an assumption with no factual basis is asinine.

Too many other legit services use P2P. Hell, I just downloaded about 7GB of WoW downloads this past weekend for my neighbor via P2P.

The FACT that P2P use is declining while YouTube and Hulu (non-P2P video based distribution methods, just like Netflix online) are rising would lead one to believe that P2P video distribution services like Joost are losing viewers. Hulu is a much better product than Joost and the other P2P TV distributors.
nasadude

join:2001-10-05
Rockville, MD
·Comcast

said by ninjatutle See Profile :

...
You know very well as with everyone here, what P2P is mainly used for.
Well, that's the "conventional wisdom" that the media companies and ILECs have been able to push into place. I have never seen any data to back this up, but if you scream something loud enough over and over and over, it can't help but sink into the consciousness of those not paying much attention (like the press, congress and 98% of the public).

and now there is evidence (although not trusted because it goes against the "conventional wisdom") that P2P use is declining - woe unto the ISPs! what will they use to scare us about bandwidth scarcity now?

ssj4android
Redefining Reality

join:2002-04-14
Wyoming, MI
What is counted as "peer to peer" traffic though? I'd think a majority of online gaming traffic is peer to peer, and that certainly isn't illegal.

ninjatutle
Premium

join:2006-01-02
San Ramon, CA

Re: This is alarming

»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peer-to-peer
»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_server

funchords
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said by ssj4android See Profile :

What is counted as "peer to peer" traffic though? I'd think a majority of online gaming traffic is peer to peer, and that certainly isn't illegal.
I'm not sure what ninja was intending to communicate. Peer-to-peer is an architecture, another common architecture is client-server. Many IM and chat clients, online games, and VOIP applications make peer-to-peer connections.

Peer-to-peer is also often a verbal abbreviation of "Peer-to-peer file sharing." I think the statistics of 1/5th being P2P probably refers only to file sharing. The devices that measure such things don't really check to see if an end point is a server, instead they actually sniff the packets as they go by and figure out what known application protocols are being used within them.

So your gaming traffic is probably not included in the statistic, regardless if the architecture is peer-to-peer or client-server. If your game uses BitTorrent to do its updates, then only that part is counted in the "P2P" column and the rest of the data (move, aim, fire, character) would not be.
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Reck Havoc
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join:2002-07-31
Grand Rapids, MI

said by ssj4android See Profile :

What is counted as "peer to peer" traffic though? I'd think a majority of online gaming traffic is peer to peer, and that certainly isn't illegal.
Right, little ninja buddy thought it'd be clever to link wiki articles.. But he forgets fact, as seen through all his posts.

The entire Xbox 360 and most of the PS3 online games use a P2P network, where either one person is actually hosting the server, or where it's split between all the users upload equally.
--
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Nightfall
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Re: This is alarming

said by Reck Havoc See Profile :

said by ssj4android See Profile :

What is counted as "peer to peer" traffic though? I'd think a majority of online gaming traffic is peer to peer, and that certainly isn't illegal.
Right, little ninja buddy thought it'd be clever to link wiki articles.. But he forgets fact, as seen through all his posts.

The entire Xbox 360 and most of the PS3 online games use a P2P network, where either one person is actually hosting the server, or where it's split between all the users upload equally.
Link? Source?

ssj4android
Redefining Reality

join:2002-04-14
Wyoming, MI


1 edit
Yeah, that's what I was referring to. Wii as well, which is the only system I've captured traffic for. Brawl seems to have one main game server, but in a three player game each player sends UDP packets to the other two.
Indeed, most P2P file transfer applications use TCP, which is connection based and requires one node to be a server while the other is a client. Gaming usually uses UDP, which seems more like a "peer to peer" transport protocol to me, but does often use at least temporary host servers. In games like Halo 3, all peers maintain enough state information to become the host if the current one drops out. AFAIK, voice communication on Xbox LIVE is direct from one peer to all others.

There's also programs such as Joost. What is that counted as?

funchords
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1 edit

Re: This is alarming

said by ssj4android See Profile :

most P2P file transfer applications use TCP, which [...] requires one node to be a server while the other is a client.
I'm not sure what you mean here, but either way I work it out its inaccurate. TCP doesn't require one side to be server and the other to be client, and the very definition of P2P means that there is no server and no client. It may be a distinction without a difference, but it hit me funny.
Gaming usually uses UDP, which seems more like a "peer to peer" transport protocol to me,
Also, a case where one UDP has nothing to do with the P2P nature.

Think of TCP and UDP as languages.
TCP has already worked out rules of etiquette about who says what under what conditions, when to ask for information to repeated, and how to say hello and goodbye. TCP is fine for most uses, but sometimes it lack features you want or in the case of streaming video, it has features that you don't need.

UDP is a much looser language, where the UDP "syllables" can be used to create exactly the languages that you want. You can have the connectedness stateful nature of TCP without the retransmission request for a 10% bad packet, for example.
Think of P2P or client-server as military ranks.
At some level, all hosts on the internet are peers but some peers have a central function -- e.g. they serve web pages, or answer file-transfer requests, or respond to other queries. These hosts are servers (masters) and the hosts that connect to them are clients (supplicants). That architecture is client-server. In a client-server arrangement, clients only connect through servers who arrange all of the processing and other communication. You have to follow the chain of command.

In a peer-to-peer architecture, there is no hierarchy. End-hosts communicate with other end-hosts directly and no central device is required. If there are communal processing tasks to be performed, this work is generally distributed among the peers somehow. There is no hierarchy.
I hope that helps.
--
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More fun, more features, Join BroadbandReports.com, it's free...

ssj4android
Redefining Reality

join:2002-04-14
Wyoming, MI

Re: This is alarming

I know how TCP and UDP work, I just don't know what to consider a "server" (I like precise definitions).
My logic is TCP requires one node (the server) to listen for a connection and another node (the client) to initiate the connection. But perhaps that's a faulty definition, as which node was the listening one is irrelevant in, say, bittorrent.
The purest example of a p2p paradigm I can think of is a multicast chat program, where one node doesn't know and doesn't care how many other nodes are on the network.

funchords
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Re: This is alarming

said by ssj4android See Profile :

I know how TCP and UDP work, I just don't know what to consider a "server" (I like precise definitions).
My logic is TCP requires one node (the server) to listen for a connection and another node (the client) to initiate the connection. But perhaps that's a faulty definition, as which node was the listening one is irrelevant in, say, bittorrent.
The purest example of a p2p paradigm I can think of is a multicast chat program, where one node doesn't know and doesn't care how many other nodes are on the network.
You are observing that most servers listen for incoming connections -- but that's common, not definitive. Who makes the connection and who listens is more of a function of how the end-points set up the communication channel, but client-server has more to do with centralization of actual work or resources.

To illustrate that it's the processing that is the chief consideration, consider the X-Server which connects outbound to X-client programs but since the terminal does the graphics processing, it is the server to the client applicaitons.

Here's one definition: »www.sei.cmu.edu/str/descriptions···ver.html
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nocannothave

join:2006-10-14
Kennewick, WA
Of course illegal material is being passed.

So are concerts of taping/trading friendly bands, tv shows, etc.

So, 20% is not illegal. 20% is p2p. That's all you can say.

Amadeus
Premium
join:2005-05-02
Miami, FL
I do. I think all the ppl that used p2p on dsl networks changed over to other isp's like comcast, verizon and etc because the speeds. ATT dsl doesn't have speed
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dentman42

join:2001-10-02
Columbus, OH
·AT&T Midwest

Re: This is alarming

said by Amadeus See Profile :

I do. I think all the ppl that used p2p on dsl networks changed over to other isp's like comcast, verizon and etc because the speeds. ATT dsl doesn't have speed
I have better bandwidth on my AT&T DSL than on my Road Runner. Even the top RR tier here only matches AT&T's Elite tier's upstream of 768k. I'm not going to pay $10 more per month for only 256k more upstream on RR.

FLengineer
Premium
join:2007-06-26
Leesburg, FL

Re: This is alarming

DSL vs. Cable is completely subjective to not only your market but your particular street.

ptrowski
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said by ninjatutle See Profile :

RTFA

"about 1/3 Web (non video/audio streams), 1/3 Web video/audio streams, and 1/5 P2P."
You RTFA, is says P2P, not illegal activity. But your trolling once again is easily noticed.

See 21 replies to this post
bjbrock

join:2002-10-28
Mcalester, OK
Not all p2p traffic is illegal. A lot of it is legitimate file sharing. So your assumption is wrong and your numbers are wrong.

pspcrazy
Anime Freak

join:2008-02-06
San Diego, CA
With 100 percent confidence the post below me will be asking for another percentage.

Nightfall
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said by hopeflicker See Profile :

said by aciddrink See Profile :

said by ninjatutle See Profile :

20% of all traffic consist of illegal activity.
90% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
and 50% of users pull numbers out of their ass without posting links to their claims.
This is 100% true. I have not seen any actual data from an unbiased source that points out the actual data usage and breaks it down factually. Instead, we have a bunch of ISPs claiming that P2P is killing them, but we have others not on the inside saying they are full of crap. So who do we believe? The majority of users here on BBR believe that the ISP is full of crap. I would like to see some real data.

The only actual data I have seen was on Comcast's network in my area. I was fortunate enough to have a friend who worked at Comcast to show me the usage data for all of the high speed internet lines in the city as broken down by usage. It was an eye opening experience to be able to see that and to see that the top 5% of the lines in the city ate up more than the last 95%.

It would be useful to see that kind of data from every ISP.

See 8 replies to this post

Doctor Four
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said by hopeflicker See Profile :

said by aciddrink See Profile :

said by ninjatutle See Profile :

20% of all traffic consist of illegal activity.
90% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
and 50% of users pull numbers out of their ass without posting links to their claims.
That definitely applies to the poster in question (who said
20% of all traffic consist of illegal activity).

WOOP! WOOP! WOOP!

Anti-Piracy troll detected off the port bow, Captain! Your
Orders, sir?"

"Fire main cannons, matey!"
--
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ninjatutle
Premium

join:2006-01-02
San Ramon, CA

Re: This is alarming

As with commies, the only good pirate is a dead pirate.

You missed my battleship

mathwizkid

@bellsouth.net
5/4ths of the people don't understand statistics

one_bored_si

join:2003-03-10
Montebello, CA

Re: This is alarming

lawl

ninjatutle
Premium

join:2006-01-02
San Ramon, CA

2 edits
edit:

Wrong reply.
deadzoned
Premium
join:2005-04-13
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What kind of Kool-Aid did you get to drink? Something good like Cherry or Grape? Hope it's good and that it is quenching that thirst of yours for corporate propaganda.

hopeflicker
Capitalism breeds greed
Premium
join:2003-04-03
Long Beach, CA

Re: This is alarming

said by deadzoned See Profile :

What kind of Kool-Aid did you get to drink? Something good like Cherry or Grape? Hope it's good and that it is quenching that thirst of yours for corporate propaganda.
Probably thinks that borrowing book from the library , recording an episode of the Simpsons, or loaning the new Britney Spears CD to a friend is piracy too.
--
Religion does three things quite effectively: Divides people, Controls people, Deludes people.

Bellundo

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ninjatutle
Premium

join:2006-01-02
San Ramon, CA
A simple search on google yielded those results

funchords
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Re: This is alarming

Yeah, and I'm sure you picked it because isoHunt is so heavily trafficked by legal P2P users. C'mon. Don't be lazy. Use a real source.

Actually, what if I conceded the point and said that most P2P is probably still some kind of copyright infringement, despite recent trends? So what?
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