FLengineer
Premium
join:2007-06-26
Leesburg, FL
 ·Vonage
 ·Comcast
 ·T-Mobile US
 ·Embarq
| reply to ninjatutle
Re: This is alarming
said by ninjatutle  :Children should not be produced because they could turn out to be killers. Rottweilers have no place on this earth because they maul kiddies. People shouldn't live in the middle west due to tornadoes. I could go on all day long until I turn blue. I love this logic. You are the one that came up with that logic when you said all P2P is Illegal. |
|
Nightfall
My Goal Is To Deny Yours
Premium,MVM
join:2001-08-03
Grand Rapids, MI
 ·Site5.com
·AT&T Midwest
·Comcast
| reply to hopeflicker
said by hopeflicker :said by aciddrink :said by ninjatutle :20% of all traffic consist of illegal activity. 90% of all statistics are made up on the spot. and 50% of users pull numbers out of their ass without posting links to their claims.  This is 100% true. I have not seen any actual data from an unbiased source that points out the actual data usage and breaks it down factually. Instead, we have a bunch of ISPs claiming that P2P is killing them, but we have others not on the inside saying they are full of crap. So who do we believe? The majority of users here on BBR believe that the ISP is full of crap. I would like to see some real data.
The only actual data I have seen was on Comcast's network in my area. I was fortunate enough to have a friend who worked at Comcast to show me the usage data for all of the high speed internet lines in the city as broken down by usage. It was an eye opening experience to be able to see that and to see that the top 5% of the lines in the city ate up more than the last 95%.
It would be useful to see that kind of data from every ISP. |
|
funchords
Hello
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Washington, DC
·Verizon Online DSL
·Skype
2 edits | said by Nightfall :The only actual data I have seen was on Comcast's network in my area. I was fortunate enough to have a friend who worked at Comcast to show me the usage data for all of the high speed internet lines in the city as broken down by usage. It was an eye opening experience to be able to see that and to see that the top 5% of the lines in the city ate up more than the last 95%. It would be useful to see that kind of data from every ISP. I've seen the same kind of stat from a number of different involved and uninvolved sources that I believe it to be true.
The question is why is the network managed in such a way that 5% of the users can take 95% of the bandwidth? It's not the users -- users have no control over the size of the tiers, or the number of people they share bandwidth with. Why are the Cable Internet companies having so much trouble with this, especially?
It's not really BitTorrent's fault -- BitTorrent is simply the method users are choosing to transfer large files. About a dozen years ago, the method choice was FTP. About 7-8 years ago, the preferred method was HTTP. (Which is why most ISPs offer personal web pages but not personal FTP space) -- they wanted to get that traffic off of the last mile but FTP had fallen out of favor!
My thoughts -- »Re: WOW! Comcast cut off Dave Winer ... again
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
More fun, more features, Join BroadbandReports.com, it's free...
|
|
ninjatutle
Premium
join:2006-01-02
San Ramon, CA
·Sprint Mobile Broa..
| reply to FLengineer
Half? And the other half would be legal content like Linux a handful of geeks use? Indy movies everyone watches? Wow patches that a billion people are playing? TV shows people think they have a right to share? Didn't the TV writers go on strike for something recently?
I guess I live in a bubble where I think everyone steals movies on P2P. I was thinking more along of the lines of people obtaining works like:
The Dark Knight
Step Brothers
The X Files: I Want to Believe
Journey to the Center of the Earth
Hancock
Hellboy II: The Golden Army
Wanted
Thanks to all for informing me, albeit it inaccurately of P2P usage. |
|
ptrowski
Got Helix?
Premium
join:2005-03-14
Putnam, CT
clubs:
·VOIPo
·Metrocast Communic..
·AT&T DSL Service
·ViaTalk
| said by ninjatutle :Half? And the other half would be legal content like Linux a handful of geeks use? Indy movies everyone watches? Wow patches that a billion people are playing? TV shows people think they have a right to share? Didn't the TV writers go on strike for something recently? I guess I live in a bubble where I think everyone steals movies on P2P. I was thinking more along of the lines of people obtaining works like: The Dark Knight Step Brothers The X Files: I Want to Believe Journey to the Center of the Earth Hancock Hellboy II: The Golden Army Wanted Thanks to all for informing me, albeit it inaccurately of P2P usage. Odd, I did not even know these were all available, and you did?
--
"A religious war is like children fighting over who has the strongest imaginary friend."
Have you been touched by his noodly appendage? »www.venganza.org |
|
odinb
join:2001-11-26
Frisco, TX
| reply to ninjatutle
Well, then there are about 29 million of us "geeks" out there according to this webpage: »i18n.counter.li.org/
Even if this is an estimate, Google said in 2004 that at least 1% of its visitors used Linux, and I have a feeling the linux community has picked up quite a bit since..
»www.google.com/press/zeitgeist/z···n04.html
Just because you live on planet Microsoft does not mean the rest of us do!
Maybe you should take off your shades and try linux, it is quite userfreindly these days, not to say faster and easier to install than windows.
--
"The same ferocity that our founders devoted to protect the freedom and independence of the press is now appropriate for our defense of the freedom of the internet. The stakes are the same: the survival of our Republic". Al Gore, The Assault on Reason |
|
FLengineer
Premium
join:2007-06-26
Leesburg, FL | reply to ninjatutle
Personally I spend alot of time on revision3.com
If you think everyone steals movies on P2P then yes you do live in your own private bubble. |
|
hopeflicker
Capitalism breeds greed
Premium
join:2003-04-03
Long Beach, CA
| reply to ninjatutle
said by ninjatutle :Half? And the other half would be legal content like Linux a handful of geeks use? Indy movies everyone watches? Wow patches that a billion people are playing? TV shows people think they have a right to share? Didn't the TV writers go on strike for something recently? I guess I live in a bubble where I think everyone steals movies on P2P. I was thinking more along of the lines of people obtaining works like: The Dark Knight Step Brothers The X Files: I Want to Believe Journey to the Center of the Earth Hancock Hellboy II: The Golden Army Wanted Thanks to all for informing me, albeit it inaccurately of P2P usage. So do you feel it is illegal to record (VCR) an episode of the Simposns and then loan it to your friend?
--
Religion does three things quite effectively: Divides people, Controls people, Deludes people. |
|
Doctor Four
My other vehicle is a TARDIS
Premium
join:2000-09-05
Dallas, TX
 ·AT&T U-Verse
| reply to hopeflicker
said by hopeflicker :said by aciddrink :said by ninjatutle :20% of all traffic consist of illegal activity. 90% of all statistics are made up on the spot. and 50% of users pull numbers out of their ass without posting links to their claims. That definitely applies to the poster in question (who said
20% of all traffic consist of illegal activity).
WOOP! WOOP! WOOP!
Anti-Piracy troll detected off the port bow, Captain! Your
Orders, sir?"
"Fire main cannons, matey!"
--
"The trouble with computers, of course, is that they are very sophisticated idiots." - Doctor Who (from Robot)
|
|
ninjatutle
Premium
join:2006-01-02
San Ramon, CA | As with commies, the only good pirate is a dead pirate.
You missed my battleship  |
|
mathwizkid
@bellsouth.net | reply to hopeflicker
5/4ths of the people don't understand statistics |
|
Bellundo
@teksavvy.com | reply to ninjatutle
Who cares? People who make crank phone calls from pay phones pay their 25 cents the same as someone who makes a normal phone call pays. |
|
Nightfall
My Goal Is To Deny Yours
Premium,MVM
join:2001-08-03
Grand Rapids, MI
·Site5.com
·AT&T Midwest
·Comcast
| reply to funchords
said by funchords :said by Nightfall :The only actual data I have seen was on Comcast's network in my area. I was fortunate enough to have a friend who worked at Comcast to show me the usage data for all of the high speed internet lines in the city as broken down by usage. It was an eye opening experience to be able to see that and to see that the top 5% of the lines in the city ate up more than the last 95%. It would be useful to see that kind of data from every ISP. I've seen the same kind of stat from a number of different involved and uninvolved sources that I believe it to be true. The question is why is the network managed in such a way that 5% of the users can take 95% of the bandwidth? It's not the users -- users have no control over the size of the tiers, or the number of people they share bandwidth with. Why are the Cable Internet companies having so much trouble with this, especially? It's not really BitTorrent's fault -- BitTorrent is simply the method users are choosing to transfer large files. About a dozen years ago, the method choice was FTP. About 7-8 years ago, the preferred method was HTTP. (Which is why most ISPs offer personal web pages but not personal FTP space) -- they wanted to get that traffic off of the last mile but FTP had fallen out of favor! My thoughts -- » Re: WOW! Comcast cut off Dave Winer ... again Comparing FTP to Bittorrent is comparing apples to oranges. Especially in terms of eating bandwidth. If you are downloading a 4gb movie, FTP just transfers the files. Bittorrent does the same thing. The only difference is that people sharing needed to use an FTP server and have some kind of service that did dynamic IP lookups because dyndns didn't exist back then. Bittorrent doesn't care what your IP is. It just shares the files and it will do it indefinitely. It will take as much bandwidth as your line has and it will do it until you shut it down. Thats a hell of a lot different than FTP.
As you said though, FTP was the program of choice for large transfers because you could start transfers where you left off. Bittorrent is just another step in the file transfer world.
The network could be managed a lot more effectively. My first thought is to give priority to HTTP/FTP traffic. Make P2P traffic low priority. Then, you give whatever is left to P2P, but make everything else primary. That tends to piss off the filesharing crowd, but thats fine with me. |
|
backfeed
is giving feedback
join:2002-12-16
Peru, IN | reply to avd706
Re: There are
Mark Twain??  |
|
funchords
Hello
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Washington, DC
·Verizon Online DSL
·Skype
2 edits | reply to Nightfall
Re: This is alarming
said by Nightfall :Comparing FTP to Bittorrent is comparing apples to oranges. Especially in terms of eating bandwidth. If you are downloading a 4gb movie, FTP just transfers the files. Bittorrent does the same thing. The only difference is that people sharing needed to use an FTP server and have some kind of service that did dynamic IP lookups because dyndns didn't exist back then. Either did 4 GB movies.
Bittorrent doesn't care what your IP is. It just shares the files and it will do it indefinitely. In most cases, it will share the file until the user reaches a certain pay-back value. But other P2P programs (Gnutella, eMule) share more like you describe. FTP servers also act in the way you describe.
It will take as much bandwidth as your line has FTP and BitTorrent both do this.
The network could be managed a lot more effectively. My first thought is to give priority to HTTP/FTP traffic. Make P2P traffic low priority. Then, you give whatever is left to P2P, but make everything else primary. Don't confuse the architecture of the end-points with the urgency of the content. Skype is a P2P telephone service. BitTorrentDNA does streaming video. These are P2P uses that should not be thrown into the slow lane.
Rapidshare handles large file transfers using the HTTP protocol. Network Associates handles their background upgrades via FTP. These are Client-Server uses that wouldn't do harm being in the slow lane.
The "network" must be managed in a neutral way. It can't be expected to know how urgent a particular packet is. There are a number of Internet Standard ways for the end points of a communication to identify handling instructions and the network operators have the option of turning on this capability (that's an oversimplification -- they can't just flip a switch, if big ISPs decided to support this, we'd be 1+ year from seeing this working on the open Internet -- but the standard and even the hardware already exists).
But don't drink the cool-aid. No prioritization scheme -- a standard one like I'm suggesting or a DPI one like your suggesting -- is a sufficient replacement for keeping up with routine bandwidth demand growth. Prioritization helps make sensitive applications more robust, but it doesn't invent bandwidth by shuffling the order of packets.
PS:
said by Nightfall :The network could be managed a lot more effectively. My first thought is to give priority to HTTP/FTP traffic. Make P2P traffic low priority. Then, you give whatever is left to P2P, but make everything else primary. That tends to piss off the filesharing crowd, but thats fine with me. Actually, most hard-core filesharers set up their own networks kinda this way (they limit their uploads to 80% of their modem's uplink rate). I'm not opposed to the idea at all. We don't want our ISPs deciding for us. Innovations like Streaming P2P could have never happened if all of the Internet transit providers decided unilaterally to put P2P last in line.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
More fun, more features, Join BroadbandReports.com, it's free...
|
|
ninjatutle
Premium
join:2006-01-02
San Ramon, CA
·Sprint Mobile Broa..
| reply to ptrowski
said by ptrowski :said by ninjatutle :Half? And the other half would be legal content like Linux a handful of geeks use? Indy movies everyone watches? Wow patches that a billion people are playing? TV shows people think they have a right to share? Didn't the TV writers go on strike for something recently? I guess I live in a bubble where I think everyone steals movies on P2P. I was thinking more along of the lines of people obtaining works like: The Dark Knight Step Brothers The X Files: I Want to Believe Journey to the Center of the Earth Hancock Hellboy II: The Golden Army Wanted Thanks to all for informing me, albeit it inaccurately of P2P usage. Odd, I did not even know these were all available, and you did? |
|
ssj4android
Redefining Reality
join:2002-04-14
Wyoming, MI | reply to ninjatutle
What is counted as "peer to peer" traffic though? I'd think a majority of online gaming traffic is peer to peer, and that certainly isn't illegal. |
|
ninjatutle
Premium
join:2006-01-02
San Ramon, CA | »en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peer-to-peer
»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_server |
|
hopeflicker
Capitalism breeds greed
Premium
join:2003-04-03
Long Beach, CA
| reply to hopeflicker
said by hopeflicker :said by ninjatutle :Half? And the other half would be legal content like Linux a handful of geeks use? Indy movies everyone watches? Wow patches that a billion people are playing? TV shows people think they have a right to share? Didn't the TV writers go on strike for something recently? I guess I live in a bubble where I think everyone steals movies on P2P. I was thinking more along of the lines of people obtaining works like: The Dark Knight Step Brothers The X Files: I Want to Believe Journey to the Center of the Earth Hancock Hellboy II: The Golden Army Wanted Thanks to all for informing me, albeit it inaccurately of P2P usage. So do you feel it is illegal to record (VCR) an episode of the Simposns and then loan it to your friend? ok, he must be guilty of recording TV shows if he's not gonna answer.
Becasue after all, when you make an unauthorized copy, you're breaking the law and that's immoral. Ohh, and to think if you loaned a copy to your friend. ehhh gadddzzz. It's the end of the world.
--
Religion does three things quite effectively: Divides people, Controls people, Deludes people. |
|
one_bored_si
join:2003-03-10
Montebello, CA | reply to mathwizkid
lawl |
|
