said by ErikVKing :

Like I've said in other posts: It's because the PvP gear is imbalanced compared to PvE gear insofar as time and effort goes. The flames will get high again after this one, to be sure!

said by drew :

And I've always agreed with you, but it was more of a philosophical agreement rather than a true understanding.

Now I know it's total and complete bullshit.

Pre-BC, and even in BC when I was raiding I did Kara so many times for a few pieces that never dropped. Granted this isn't BT/MH, but hey I did Naxx Pre-BC so I've done the hardcore stuff.

said by Zyncotl :

What? You can run Karazhan and get yourself a nice main hand PvE weapon comparable to that S2 sword for 5 minutes work or if you don't just bribe your way into a raid it might 2.5 hours to run the entire instance and have it drop for you. While you're there you may also pick up about 3-4 other epics to upgrade your character.

Yeah, PvP is unbalanced. It's harder to get gear to make you workable.

said by drew :

buahaha.

that's so wrong it's almost not funny.

I ran Kara for 6 weeks before Light's Justice dropped for our raid. I then had to either have higher DKP or win a roll for it. Seems like a sweet system (oh wait no it isn't).

Also, »www.wowhead.com/?item=28768 iLvl 125
My merc weaps? iLvl 136. And it took 1.5 days of pvp to get both.

said by elboricua :

I am in T5 content now. I ran Kara once a week for 12 weeks with my old guild. Thats 12 prince killings and not once did he drop the mind blade. I ran EotS and AV one weekend and in 2 days had the Merciless Spell Blade. BTW the Merciless Blade is better. More spell damage, stam and spell hit.

said by AthlGrond :

I have a theory about Blizzard's motivation on this:

If you fight other players then they don't need to code any new content to keep it challenging. Essentially they want to encourage PvP because it's easier for them.

said by Zyncotl :

There's 10 people in WoW that need T4? Really?

PvP is guaranteed epics for xx amount of work. PvE is not guaranteed. I think it's a bit silly that they don't make PvE a little more guaranteed. It took me 6 months to get my nightslayer bracers, and it was the first drop for our guild... and that's not the end of the horror stories for raiding, I know how it goes. But for every tale of the item that never drops I've seen 2 or 3 times that many multi-epic runs, or runs where a new recruit comes in and cleans house getting 5 epics or more. Hell my priest got 6+ epics in 1 run of kara (alt). I never saw a pvp'r do that.

PvE is the lotto while PvP is a consistent paycheck.

said by MaybeTrouble :

PvP and PvE are separate games, don't think anyone can argue with that. The thing is unless you farm past raids, PvE compensates us by being interesting, as opposed to a grind.

In fact I still enjoyed Kara when we were farming it for badges. It is a matter of mindset I have to admit, if you just view each encounter as a strat it won't be that interesting. You have to use your imagination a bit, and I think this is one area of the game Blizzard could improve on.

A few cinematic cutscenes approaching and after defeating end-game relevant bosses for example.

It all depends on what you're willing to invest in the game too. Some people just prefer to think of things as a mechanical grind, even PvE. Some prefer to regard Kara as a gothic adventure, SSC as a watery underworld, Black Temple as demonic playground.. that sort of thing. Like I said, a bit of help from Blizzard in this regard wouldn't have gone amiss.

But the bottom line it would be nice if tier tokens weren't class specific and other drops were relevant to the classes in the raid. But that would go against Blizzard's policy of forcing players to rinse and repeat - lengthening the game.

If raids didn't end a Kara run with half a dozen void crystals every week, Blizzard would need to crank out expansions every 6 months, instead of every 18.

said by AB_Lazy :

Depends on the battlegroup. In my battlegroup, it took 3-4 days of playing 6-8 hours a day to get my MH sword. Just say 5 if you want to count MH and OH.

So, around 24 hours /played to get just two pieces. Instead, I could've ran 4 6-hour raids and gotten a slew of other upgrades. PvP gear is considered easier because:

A.) Your aimed drop is guaranteed.
B.) You can grind PvP gear, not so much with raid clears. Even though you could've done 4 raid runs in the time it takes to fill your desired item slots, instance timers force you to spread out your time.

Everyone always loves to talk about weapons, but what about the other pieces of armor? Someone hitting a fresh honor grind for their beginner arena training suit is gonna be putting in a hell of a lot of time.

Of course, it could just be my battlegroup. Horde loses WB/AB/EotS reliably in PUG fashion, and AV is the "honor farm" with a 50/50 win-loss rate.

Damn the grind is something else though. It can range from downright fun with friends, to just monotony if I want to grind by myself. That's usually when I pull out the Haliscan outfit, and get others to play "The Three Amigos" with me in BGs.

I do hope they unscrew the PvP system of today with WotLK. Maybe then they can also separate PvE and PvP gear (and weapons) further, so this debate can die along with TBC. Locking out PvP items from PvE instances and PvE items from BGs/Arenas would be such an easy fix.

said by ErikVKing :

To anyone not getting the PvP gear vs. PvE gear rant I have: It's not the length of time it would (or could at least) take to get. My rant is that you can do it **S O L O**! You queue for AB, by yourself, let's see you "queue" for ANY raid by yourself. Even if you are the piece of sh*t that goes afk for an entire raid (yes, it happens, some raid leaders don't pay enough attention...) - you still have to have at least 9 other people in there with you.

In a BG, with the new (or fairly new) debuff of not getting honor or tokens unless you do some healing and/or damage, it makes it harder for someone to completely AFK (unless they have a bot running - and I'll get to that in a sec). Hell if it's a decent bot program you might even benefit from it being in there with you. No I'm not saying I approve of bot programs, but hell at least those pixels are doing something other than taking up space when run by a bot.

I suppose you could even bot a raid, idunno.

said by Jakiel00 :

Are you saying you would raid with PVP gear on? Sorry I might have missed it from a previous posting. I raid with a couple pieces of PVP gear, but about 90% of my gear is raid based.

said by ErikVKing :

Yeah, I'd raid with PvP gears if I got them to upgrade something that needed upgrading while going after other pieces. Any raiding guild worth their salt would take the guy that tries to upgrade outside of raid time to help the raid over the guy that expects everything to be upgraded solely in raids.

I'd rather have the guy that went BGing and got his S2 MH over the guy that is still raiding in a blue piece of much lesser quality. He's going to help the raid more if he adds that little DPS to the raid.

said by MaybeTrouble :

Absolutely, that has always been the policy of any guild I've been in. You're expected to roll/dkp on PvE gear as it drops to replace PvP gear, but having PvE gear just because it's PvE gear doesn't make sense. Not if the S2 or whatever item has better PvE stats, which in same cases it does.

We had several hunters that used S3 helms and boots because the stats on these were better than anything that dropped in the raids we were doing. Sure they also had resilience, and a T6 or even T5 equivalent would be better, but only 3 people get to take a tier token home and for some reason our guild always got warrior/priest/drood tier tokens in SSC and TK.

Hunter/Lock/Mage got the luck with T4, and we assumed T6 would go mostly to the social misfits.. rogue/shammy/pally or whatever. Weird how things work out sometimes.

(never sure of my tier token groups, i just concentrate on whether it has my class in the name).

said by dynodb :

Some quest/rep blues are better for PvE than S2 epics. It depends- for PvE I use S2 daggers, bracers and boots only because I haven't gotten upgrades for them yet. I use a blue helm and shoulders over the S1/S2 epics I have for those slots.

My main is a rogue, and PvP gear lacks the necessary +hit and AP for PvE- intead it's scaled towards stamina and +crit. Nothing wrong with using some PvP gear for PvE (especially weapons), but for high end content you'll want to replace it eventually.

said by AB_Lazy :

...does it matter?

You've long since been able to grind up gears (ie. see crafting) solo. If your beef is against having solo content, I'm sure there's many players (and designers) who would disagree. One of the reasons WoW is so sucessful with subscriptions is that there is content for anyone of any schedule (and any skill) to enjoy. Hell, some could say that WoW is just another reiteration of Second Life, but with a monthly subscription cost.

If you want a game that requires a group to do anything, may I recommend Final Fantasy XI?

Seriously. You want WoW to be a more "serious" MMORPG? Go look into Vanguard. They ran with the serious WoW-like angle and their player base is a joke compared to WoW. Blizzard's found their sucessful cash cow in the casual market. It would be idiotic of them to jettison 80% of their player base in order to bring the other 20% of players the "hardcore" WoW they want.

said by AB_Lazy :

Funny how that went. Hopefully Blizzard changes the stats around in WotLK so that the polarization between PvP and PvE gear is broader. As iLevels went up, eventually, the PvP gears replaced obtainable PvE gears for usefulness.

It's just an even bigger problem late in game as gear saturation hits ludicrous levels. To the new player, nobody is running their beginning 5-man content - there's just no reason to. If you do manage to find a group, the stat/gear expectations are so high that you won't get let in. (I remember seeing a LFG normal slabs, T4+ required, lol) New players are forced into the PvP field since they lack any other options, and the problem just grows.

I dunno. Maybe if Blizzard upgraded the introductary group content when they added in tiers/seasons, there'd be more demand. Maybe it can't be solved, I dunno. All I know, is it's gonna be ludicrous seeing LFGs Naxx, T7+ required (the instance is a 72-73 introductary "for fun" instance). Players entering late in the game need options as well.

said by AB_Lazy :

Interesting way to derail a statement. In your previous thread, you comment about things being better in pre-TBC, and that you're taking a more active raiding position now in TBC. It seems that one of your main complaints is that the game/system is not like it was pre-TBC - when PvE gear was the end-all-be-all of gear acquisition. While you may find that better, many of the new subscribers (and developer focus) would disagree.

Why so serious?

Show me a Sunwell raid running members decked with S1/2 weapons/armor/etc. and I'll agree. Until then, both raiders and PvPers are parking their ass plunking down "effort time". I really don't see anything wrong with both parties getting rewards.

I have a question for you then. If PvE and PvP gear were kept seperate (ie. PvE gear barred from BG/Arenas and PvP gear barred from raid instances), would that float your boat? I'm just curious with your opinion on this one.

said by Omega :

I've pretty much gotten over all issues with PVP gear vs PVE gear, ect.

However one thing remains a problem: resilience.

I play on a PVP server. Since I am a raider (and don't PVP) I have only my PVE gear to wear. This is great when it comes to doing dailys or farming mobs. However, I am at a huge disadvantage when I am being attacked by an enemy player (one in PVP gear).

In my opinion, I feel I am being punished because I choose to go the PVE route in the game to get my gear. I worked just as hard, if not harder than PVPers, yet they have the clear advantage when it comes to world PVP.

So, I have two solutions:

1. Resilience only works in arena and battleground. PVP players will still have a slight advantage because their gear has more +stam than mine.

or

2. Give PVE gear +resilience without affecting its ilevel. By this I mean that all the stats on the piece of gear create the ilevel and resilience adds zero. Not anything game breaking, but enough to keep us viable when it comes to world pvp combat.

Both of those are pretty fair to PVEers and PVPers.

said by Zyncotl :

You have some more copying to do as the other thread has more replies.

said by DownLow :

No offense implied, but shouldn't you have rolled on a PVE server then?

said by SkellBasher :

I LOVE this idea. I have long thought resilience was a horrible idea personally.

To DownLow, even PvE servers have world PvP content that players want to experience. In WotLK, there's an entire outdoor, non-instanced zone for PvP, even on PvE servers.

As things are now, these zones are almost useless for raiding PvE players.

said by Zyncotl :

They have an advantage in world PvP, you have an advantage in ALL forms of PvE including raids, instances, and world bosses.

I fail to see the problem that a person who plays a ton of PvP should have better gear than you when it comes to PvP. You have every advantage in PvE for dedicating your time to PvE. It's called making choices.

If you are a PvE player ONLY why do you care about the PvP zones? When I stopped raiding and went PvP I didn't care about any of the PvE world bosses that I didn't have accesst to. You choose your path in the game. If you want PvP gear and it's SO EASY to get then spend a little time and get some.

Hell you can even buy resilience gems and load up some PvE based gear to brindge some of the gap if you are so inclined. Use your badges to get the cloak yada yada yada.

said by DownLow :

Well...at the sake of being obvious, one simple fact remains in regards to PVP...it is (or is supposed to be) about skill.

While gear is certainly a major contributor to success, ultimately, it is supposed to come down to skill. Not that the best gear should be given away, but think about that concept. If we are all on "roughly" even footing gear-wise, the better player should win. That said, the people who work the hardest should be rewarded for their effort so I agree with the ratings fixes, awards, etc.

said by Omega :

No, because I have no problem being ganked or participating in world PVP. What I do have a problem with is being at a disadvantage because I choose a different (and harder) route than scrub #1. The only reason they beat me is because of a single stat.

said by Omega :

What I do have a problem with is being at a disadvantage because I choose a different (and harder) route than scrub #1.

said by Omega :

The only reason they beat me is because of a single stat.

said by ErikVKing :

I'll find some armory profiles to prove that there are S3/S4/Guardian gears in Sunwell, but I just started getting busy at work, so it may take a bit.

said by ErikVKing :

The whole argument isn't about how someone plays, it's about rewards that should be equivalent to the amount of preperation involved in getting the gear, the amount of people working side by side, and other things of that nature.

said by ErikVKing :

Tell me you're joking here when you think that there is no PvP gear that is crafted. There are plenty of pieces that the PvP'er needing a little help or boost can get, just as the PvE gear goes.

The whole argument isn't about how someone plays, it's about rewards that should be equivalent to the amount of preperation involved in getting the gear, the amount of people working side by side, and other things of that nature.

If you could go into the LFG channel and "queue" a heroic and get badges by just running around and doing your own thing (many people farm honor just like that, not caring about trying to win, just going in), then they'd be the same to me. If you were able to "queue" a 10-man and get the gear the same manner as stated above, then fine and dandy...

said by ErikVKing :

Something interesting I just found while browsing profiles, a Nihilum Holy Priest with a 1573 2v2 rating (all alone in it atm, but still) and a 1527 3v3 rating. Being that they are in full raid gears, and given that Nihilum at least used to raid daily, I'd assume that they do just fine in the arena with no PvP gears on...

So yes, PvP gears = more likely to win PvP, but they aren't required to get a semi-decent rating .

Forgot to link the profile: »www.lfgarmory.com/char-Magtheridon-Poptisse