Re: There are in http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r20880865 en Mon, 30 Nov 2009 23:44:30 EDT Mon, 30 Nov 2009 23:44:30 EDT Re: This is alarming http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21114559 nocannothave : Of course illegal material is being passed.

So are concerts of taping/trading friendly bands, tv shows, etc.

So, 20% is not illegal. 20% is p2p. That's all you can say.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21114559 Mon, 15 Sep 2008 17:10:01 EDT Re: This is alarming http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20887675 funchords :
said by ssj4android See Profile :

I know how TCP and UDP work, I just don't know what to consider a "server" (I like precise definitions).
My logic is TCP requires one node (the server) to listen for a connection and another node (the client) to initiate the connection. But perhaps that's a faulty definition, as which node was the listening one is irrelevant in, say, bittorrent.
The purest example of a p2p paradigm I can think of is a multicast chat program, where one node doesn't know and doesn't care how many other nodes are on the network.
You are observing that most servers listen for incoming connections -- but that's common, not definitive. Who makes the connection and who listens is more of a function of how the end-points set up the communication channel, but client-server has more to do with centralization of actual work or resources.

To illustrate that it's the processing that is the chief consideration, consider the X-Server which connects outbound to X-client programs but since the terminal does the graphics processing, it is the server to the client applicaitons.

Here's one definition: »www.sei.cmu.edu/str/descriptions···ver.html
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]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20887675 Sat, 02 Aug 2008 03:09:30 EDT Re: This is alarming http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20887645 funchords : Thanks for doing that! Huh, I could have swore ... I stand corrected.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20887645 Sat, 02 Aug 2008 02:54:08 EDT Re: There are http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20887503 NetAdmin : »en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lies,_damn···atistics

Benjamin Disraeli... Someone who obviously failed stats.
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Eleven years of carrying The Clue Bat...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20887503 Sat, 02 Aug 2008 01:48:57 EDT Re: This is alarming http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20887367 ssj4android : I know how TCP and UDP work, I just don't know what to consider a "server" (I like precise definitions).
My logic is TCP requires one node (the server) to listen for a connection and another node (the client) to initiate the connection. But perhaps that's a faulty definition, as which node was the listening one is irrelevant in, say, bittorrent.
The purest example of a p2p paradigm I can think of is a multicast chat program, where one node doesn't know and doesn't care how many other nodes are on the network.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20887367 Sat, 02 Aug 2008 00:55:28 EDT Re: This is alarming http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20887199 Nightfall :
said by funchords See Profile :

said by Nightfall See Profile :

Just a couple rebuttal points here...

quote:
In most cases, it will share the file until the user reaches a certain pay-back value. But other P2P programs (Gnutella, eMule) share more like you describe. FTP servers also act in the way you describe.


A lot of popular Bittorrent clients do the same thing as Gnutella and eMule unless you tell it otherwise. It will share and keep sharing even if you have already went over and above the ratio amount. Oh, and most users don't set those options up so it just shares away. So I wouldn't say "In most cases" and say "In rare cases" for that statement.
I don't think so (I'm about 80% sure here), but I invite you or someone reading to prove me wrong. Uninstall your software and be sure also to ensure its previous configuration files, directories and registry settings are also gone. (Either this or try it on a new computer.)

Install Azureus and uTorrent and see what the settings are at -- the last time that I installed these (more than 6 months ago), those were the most popular by leaps and bounds and both stopped sharing when the ratio 100% 150% 200% or something was reached by default. It is an option that a lot of people change after installing.

There are over 60 applications using BitTorrent according to the DCIA -- and they'll all behave differently, but these two are the main two.
Not having any software installed on my system previously, I took the challenge. I opened ports on my firewall and used 2 clients. Utorrent to start. Utorrent will keep sharing even after your ratio is passed. There is an option to stop seeding after you hit your ratio, but that is not checked. Even if checked, the default number is 4kb/second. So user intervention is necessary to turn that on. This is on 1.7.7

Same to go with Azureus. The option was disabled by default. So once again its up to the user to turn that on if you want it.

I guess I learned a few things from this experiment. I wasn't 100% sure either, but I now know that you at least have to intervene if you don't want to be sharing after you hit your ratio. The Utorrent setting was the easiest to find, but just because its there doesn't mean the users are going to turn it off. As has been evidenced by various P2P applications like Kazaa, seems that users just let that darn application run all the time back in the day. Sure, the experienced users make sure the right options are turned on, so that covers everyone here on BBR. :)

You are right though, there are a lot of applications out there and 2 apps don't make a default. It could have changed in the last 6 months too where these things were set to default.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20887199 Sat, 02 Aug 2008 00:08:23 EDT Re: This is alarming http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20885291 funchords :
said by ssj4android See Profile :

most P2P file transfer applications use TCP, which [...] requires one node to be a server while the other is a client.
I'm not sure what you mean here, but either way I work it out its inaccurate. TCP doesn't require one side to be server and the other to be client, and the very definition of P2P means that there is no server and no client. It may be a distinction without a difference, but it hit me funny.
Gaming usually uses UDP, which seems more like a "peer to peer" transport protocol to me,
Also, a case where one UDP has nothing to do with the P2P nature.

Think of TCP and UDP as languages.
TCP has already worked out rules of etiquette about who says what under what conditions, when to ask for information to repeated, and how to say hello and goodbye. TCP is fine for most uses, but sometimes it lack features you want or in the case of streaming video, it has features that you don't need.

UDP is a much looser language, where the UDP "syllables" can be used to create exactly the languages that you want. You can have the connectedness stateful nature of TCP without the retransmission request for a 10% bad packet, for example.


Think of P2P or client-server as military ranks.
At some level, all hosts on the internet are peers but some peers have a central function -- e.g. they serve web pages, or answer file-transfer requests, or respond to other queries. These hosts are servers (masters) and the hosts that connect to them are clients (supplicants). That architecture is client-server. In a client-server arrangement, clients only connect through servers who arrange all of the processing and other communication. You have to follow the chain of command.

In a peer-to-peer architecture, there is no hierarchy. End-hosts communicate with other end-hosts directly and no central device is required. If there are communal processing tasks to be performed, this work is generally distributed among the peers somehow. There is no hierarchy.


I hope that helps.
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]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20885291 Fri, 01 Aug 2008 17:31:17 EDT Re: This is alarming http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20885018 ssj4android : Yeah, that's what I was referring to. Wii as well, which is the only system I've captured traffic for. Brawl seems to have one main game server, but in a three player game each player sends UDP packets to the other two.
Indeed, most P2P file transfer applications use TCP, which is connection based and requires one node to be a server while the other is a client. Gaming usually uses UDP, which seems more like a "peer to peer" transport protocol to me, but does often use at least temporary host servers. In games like Halo 3, all peers maintain enough state information to become the host if the current one drops out. AFAIK, voice communication on Xbox LIVE is direct from one peer to all others.

There's also programs such as Joost. What is that counted as?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20885018 Fri, 01 Aug 2008 16:45:57 EDT Re: This is alarming http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20884526 funchords :
said by Nightfall See Profile :

quote:
FTP and BitTorrent both do this.


Correct, but you left out the part of my post explaining about dynamic dns services and such. Seemed that back in the FTP days, a site could be shutdown pretty easily. Bittorrent is a lot harder to bring down than FTP thats for sure.
Oh, now I see. I did read that dyndns point the first time before but I didn't know what your point actually was. Yes, it was easy to get rogue FTP sites shut down back then. Not only did the IP address tip them off, but abuse desks were more responsive to complaints.

You make it sound like FTP back 7-8 years ago was just as effective as Bittorrent which I disagree with. Bittorrent is much more efficient and dare I say better than FTP ever was.
Actually we agree on how effective and efficient that BitTorrent is over FTP. I was thinking about what Cisco says topped the bandwidth charts at the time. I'd have to go back and see, but if memory serves me I was talking about how prevalent its usage was -- and it was more than 10 years ago. I think the "bandwidth hog" history goes like this: ftp (12+ ago) - http (~8 ago) - bittorrent (~4 ago) - http (~now).
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]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20884526 Fri, 01 Aug 2008 15:22:44 EDT Re: This is alarming http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20884493 funchords :
said by Nightfall See Profile :

Just a couple rebuttal points here...

quote:
In most cases, it will share the file until the user reaches a certain pay-back value. But other P2P programs (Gnutella, eMule) share more like you describe. FTP servers also act in the way you describe.


A lot of popular Bittorrent clients do the same thing as Gnutella and eMule unless you tell it otherwise. It will share and keep sharing even if you have already went over and above the ratio amount. Oh, and most users don't set those options up so it just shares away. So I wouldn't say "In most cases" and say "In rare cases" for that statement.
I don't think so (I'm about 80% sure here), but I invite you or someone reading to prove me wrong. Uninstall your software and be sure also to ensure its previous configuration files, directories and registry settings are also gone. (Either this or try it on a new computer.)

Install Azureus and uTorrent and see what the settings are at -- the last time that I installed these (more than 6 months ago), those were the most popular by leaps and bounds and both stopped sharing when the ratio 100% 150% 200% or something was reached by default. It is an option that a lot of people change after installing.

There are over 60 applications using BitTorrent according to the DCIA -- and they'll all behave differently, but these two are the main two.
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]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20884493 Fri, 01 Aug 2008 15:17:21 EDT Re: This is alarming http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20884444 Nightfall :
said by Reck Havoc See Profile :

said by ssj4android See Profile :

What is counted as "peer to peer" traffic though? I'd think a majority of online gaming traffic is peer to peer, and that certainly isn't illegal.
Right, little ninja buddy thought it'd be clever to link wiki articles.. But he forgets fact, as seen through all his posts.

The entire Xbox 360 and most of the PS3 online games use a P2P network, where either one person is actually hosting the server, or where it's split between all the users upload equally.
Link? Source?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20884444 Fri, 01 Aug 2008 15:10:12 EDT Re: This is alarming http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20884435 Nightfall : Just a couple rebuttal points here...

quote:
In most cases, it will share the file until the user reaches a certain pay-back value. But other P2P programs (Gnutella, eMule) share more like you describe. FTP servers also act in the way you describe.

A lot of popular Bittorrent clients do the same thing as Gnutella and eMule unless you tell it otherwise. It will share and keep sharing even if you have already went over and above the ratio amount. Oh, and most users don't set those options up so it just shares away. So I wouldn't say "In most cases" and say "In rare cases" for that statement.

quote:
FTP and BitTorrent both do this.

Correct, but you left out the part of my post explaining about dynamic dns services and such. Seemed that back in the FTP days, a site could be shutdown pretty easily. Bittorrent is a lot harder to bring down than FTP thats for sure.

You make it sound like FTP back 7-8 years ago was just as effective as Bittorrent which I disagree with. Bittorrent is much more efficient and dare I say better than FTP ever was.

Otherwise, I do have to agree with you on the last part. Your explanation on how to handle the traffic is very good. I think we can all expect bandwidth needs to continue growing. Capping users at the modem level was very foreseeable back in the @Home days. Today, I can still see some kind of data prioritization or QOS hitting the bandwidth playing field. Especially as Bittorrent and file sharing gets more and more popular and easier to use.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20884435 Fri, 01 Aug 2008 15:08:33 EDT Re: This is alarming http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20884293 Reck Havoc :
said by ssj4android See Profile :

What is counted as "peer to peer" traffic though? I'd think a majority of online gaming traffic is peer to peer, and that certainly isn't illegal.
Right, little ninja buddy thought it'd be clever to link wiki articles.. But he forgets fact, as seen through all his posts.

The entire Xbox 360 and most of the PS3 online games use a P2P network, where either one person is actually hosting the server, or where it's split between all the users upload equally.
--
AMD Athlon 64 FX-53, 1GB Corsair XMS Dual Channel PC-4400 DDR, NVIDIA GeForce 6800 Ultra 256MB, 160GB Seagate SATA - RAID 0, Windows XP Pro ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20884293 Fri, 01 Aug 2008 14:47:12 EDT Re: This is alarming http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20884288 funchords : Yeah, and I'm sure you picked it because isoHunt is so heavily trafficked by legal P2P users. C'mon. Don't be lazy. Use a real source.

Actually, what if I conceded the point and said that most P2P is probably still some kind of copyright infringement, despite recent trends? So what? ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20884288 Fri, 01 Aug 2008 14:46:33 EDT Re: This is alarming http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20883641 ninjatutle : A simple search on google yielded those results :uhh:]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20883641 Fri, 01 Aug 2008 12:54:29 EDT Re: This is alarming http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20883595 ptrowski :
said by ninjatutle See Profile :

said by ptrowski See Profile :

said by ninjatutle See Profile :

Half? And the other half would be legal content like Linux a handful of geeks use? Indy movies everyone watches? Wow patches that a billion people are playing? TV shows people think they have a right to share? Didn't the TV writers go on strike for something recently?

I guess I live in a bubble where I think everyone steals movies on P2P. I was thinking more along of the lines of people obtaining works like:

The Dark Knight
Step Brothers
The X Files: I Want to Believe
Journey to the Center of the Earth
Hancock
Hellboy II: The Golden Army
Wanted

Thanks to all for informing me, albeit it inaccurately of P2P usage.
Odd, I did not even know these were all available, and you did?
Browsing Torrents again, I see?
--
"A religious war is like children fighting over who has the strongest imaginary friend."

Have you been touched by his noodly appendage? »www.venganza.org]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20883595 Fri, 01 Aug 2008 12:46:27 EDT Re: This is alarming http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20882725 funchords :
said by ssj4android See Profile :

What is counted as "peer to peer" traffic though? I'd think a majority of online gaming traffic is peer to peer, and that certainly isn't illegal.
said by ninjatutle See Profile :

»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peer-to-peer
»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_server
I'm not sure what ninja was intending to communicate. Peer-to-peer is an architecture, another common architecture is client-server. Many IM and chat clients, online games, and VOIP applications make peer-to-peer connections.

Peer-to-peer is also often a verbal abbreviation of "Peer-to-peer file sharing." I think the statistics of 1/5th being P2P probably refers only to file sharing. The devices that measure such things don't really check to see if an end point is a server, instead they actually sniff the packets as they go by and figure out what known application protocols are being used within them.

So your gaming traffic is probably not included in the statistic, regardless if the architecture is peer-to-peer or client-server. If your game uses BitTorrent to do its updates, then only that part is counted in the "P2P" column and the rest of the data (move, aim, fire, character) would not be.
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]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20882725 Fri, 01 Aug 2008 09:56:05 EDT Re: This is alarming http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20881878 one_bored_si : lawl]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20881878 Fri, 01 Aug 2008 03:31:37 EDT Re: This is alarming http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20881581 hopeflicker :
said by hopeflicker See Profile :

said by ninjatutle See Profile :

Half? And the other half would be legal content like Linux a handful of geeks use? Indy movies everyone watches? Wow patches that a billion people are playing? TV shows people think they have a right to share? Didn't the TV writers go on strike for something recently?

I guess I live in a bubble where I think everyone steals movies on P2P. I was thinking more along of the lines of people obtaining works like:

The Dark Knight
Step Brothers
The X Files: I Want to Believe
Journey to the Center of the Earth
Hancock
Hellboy II: The Golden Army
Wanted

Thanks to all for informing me, albeit it inaccurately of P2P usage.
So do you feel it is illegal to record (VCR) an episode of the Simposns and then loan it to your friend?
ok, he must be guilty of recording TV shows if he's not gonna answer.

Becasue after all, when you make an unauthorized copy, you're breaking the law and that's immoral. Ohh, and to think if you loaned a copy to your friend. ehhh gadddzzz. It's the end of the world. :huh:
--
Religion does three things quite effectively: Divides people, Controls people, Deludes people.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20881581 Fri, 01 Aug 2008 01:06:26 EDT Re: This is alarming http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20881524 ninjatutle : »en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peer-to-peer
»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_server]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20881524 Fri, 01 Aug 2008 00:42:51 EDT Re: This is alarming http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20881487 ssj4android : What is counted as "peer to peer" traffic though? I'd think a majority of online gaming traffic is peer to peer, and that certainly isn't illegal.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20881487 Fri, 01 Aug 2008 00:28:35 EDT Re: This is alarming http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20881075 ninjatutle :
said by ptrowski See Profile :

said by ninjatutle See Profile :

Half? And the other half would be legal content like Linux a handful of geeks use? Indy movies everyone watches? Wow patches that a billion people are playing? TV shows people think they have a right to share? Didn't the TV writers go on strike for something recently?

I guess I live in a bubble where I think everyone steals movies on P2P. I was thinking more along of the lines of people obtaining works like:

The Dark Knight
Step Brothers
The X Files: I Want to Believe
Journey to the Center of the Earth
Hancock
Hellboy II: The Golden Army
Wanted

Thanks to all for informing me, albeit it inaccurately of P2P usage.
Odd, I did not even know these were all available, and you did?
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20881075 Thu, 31 Jul 2008 22:52:53 EDT Re: This is alarming http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20880968 funchords :
said by Nightfall See Profile :

Comparing FTP to Bittorrent is comparing apples to oranges. Especially in terms of eating bandwidth. If you are downloading a 4gb movie, FTP just transfers the files. Bittorrent does the same thing. The only difference is that people sharing needed to use an FTP server and have some kind of service that did dynamic IP lookups because dyndns didn't exist back then.
Either did 4 GB movies.

Bittorrent doesn't care what your IP is. It just shares the files and it will do it indefinitely.
In most cases, it will share the file until the user reaches a certain pay-back value. But other P2P programs (Gnutella, eMule) share more like you describe. FTP servers also act in the way you describe.

It will take as much bandwidth as your line has
FTP and BitTorrent both do this.

The network could be managed a lot more effectively. My first thought is to give priority to HTTP/FTP traffic. Make P2P traffic low priority. Then, you give whatever is left to P2P, but make everything else primary.
Don't confuse the architecture of the end-points with the urgency of the content. Skype is a P2P telephone service. BitTorrentDNA does streaming video. These are P2P uses that should not be thrown into the slow lane.

Rapidshare handles large file transfers using the HTTP protocol. Network Associates handles their background upgrades via FTP. These are Client-Server uses that wouldn't do harm being in the slow lane.

The "network" must be managed in a neutral way. It can't be expected to know how urgent a particular packet is. There are a number of Internet Standard ways for the end points of a communication to identify handling instructions and the network operators have the option of turning on this capability (that's an oversimplification -- they can't just flip a switch, if big ISPs decided to support this, we'd be 1+ year from seeing this working on the open Internet -- but the standard and even the hardware already exists).

But don't drink the cool-aid. No prioritization scheme -- a standard one like I'm suggesting or a DPI one like your suggesting -- is a sufficient replacement for keeping up with routine bandwidth demand growth. Prioritization helps make sensitive applications more robust, but it doesn't invent bandwidth by shuffling the order of packets.

PS:

said by Nightfall See Profile :

The network could be managed a lot more effectively. My first thought is to give priority to HTTP/FTP traffic. Make P2P traffic low priority. Then, you give whatever is left to P2P, but make everything else primary. That tends to piss off the filesharing crowd, but thats fine with me.
Actually, most hard-core filesharers set up their own networks kinda this way (they limit their uploads to 80% of their modem's uplink rate). I'm not opposed to the idea at all. We don't want our ISPs deciding for us. Innovations like Streaming P2P could have never happened if all of the Internet transit providers decided unilaterally to put P2P last in line.

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]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20880968 Thu, 31 Jul 2008 22:36:08 EDT Re: There are http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20880865 backfeed : Mark Twain?? :huh:]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20880865 Thu, 31 Jul 2008 22:18:57 EDT Re: This is alarming http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20880847 Nightfall :
said by funchords See Profile :

said by Nightfall See Profile :

The only actual data I have seen was on Comcast's network in my area. I was fortunate enough to have a friend who worked at Comcast to show me the usage data for all of the high speed internet lines in the city as broken down by usage. It was an eye opening experience to be able to see that and to see that the top 5% of the lines in the city ate up more than the last 95%.

It would be useful to see that kind of data from every ISP.
I've seen the same kind of stat from a number of different involved and uninvolved sources that I believe it to be true.

The question is why is the network managed in such a way that 5% of the users can take 95% of the bandwidth? It's not the users -- users have no control over the size of the tiers, or the number of people they share bandwidth with. Why are the Cable Internet companies having so much trouble with this, especially?

It's not really BitTorrent's fault -- BitTorrent is simply the method users are choosing to transfer large files. About a dozen years ago, the method choice was FTP. About 7-8 years ago, the preferred method was HTTP. (Which is why most ISPs offer personal web pages but not personal FTP space) -- they wanted to get that traffic off of the last mile but FTP had fallen out of favor!

My thoughts -- »Re: WOW! Comcast cut off Dave Winer ... again
Comparing FTP to Bittorrent is comparing apples to oranges. Especially in terms of eating bandwidth. If you are downloading a 4gb movie, FTP just transfers the files. Bittorrent does the same thing. The only difference is that people sharing needed to use an FTP server and have some kind of service that did dynamic IP lookups because dyndns didn't exist back then. Bittorrent doesn't care what your IP is. It just shares the files and it will do it indefinitely. It will take as much bandwidth as your line has and it will do it until you shut it down. Thats a hell of a lot different than FTP.

As you said though, FTP was the program of choice for large transfers because you could start transfers where you left off. Bittorrent is just another step in the file transfer world.

The network could be managed a lot more effectively. My first thought is to give priority to HTTP/FTP traffic. Make P2P traffic low priority. Then, you give whatever is left to P2P, but make everything else primary. That tends to piss off the filesharing crowd, but thats fine with me.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20880847 Thu, 31 Jul 2008 22:15:58 EDT Re: This is alarming http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20880278 anon : Who cares? People who make crank phone calls from pay phones pay their 25 cents the same as someone who makes a normal phone call pays.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20880278 Thu, 31 Jul 2008 20:20:02 EDT Re: This is alarming http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20878479 anon : 5/4ths of the people don't understand statistics]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20878479 Thu, 31 Jul 2008 19:05:55 EDT Re: This is alarming http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20879489 ninjatutle : As with commies, the only good pirate is a dead pirate.

You missed my battleship :p]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20879489 Thu, 31 Jul 2008 17:41:12 EDT Re: This is alarming http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20879434 Doctor Four :
said by hopeflicker See Profile :

said by aciddrink See Profile :

said by ninjatutle See Profile :

20% of all traffic consist of illegal activity.
90% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
and 50% of users pull numbers out of their ass without posting links to their claims. ;)
That definitely applies to the poster in question (who said
20% of all traffic consist of illegal activity).

WOOP! WOOP! WOOP!

Anti-Piracy troll detected off the port bow, Captain! Your
Orders, sir?"

"Fire main cannons, matey!"
--
"The trouble with computers, of course, is that they are very sophisticated idiots." - Doctor Who (from Robot)
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20879434 Thu, 31 Jul 2008 17:30:08 EDT Re: This is alarming http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20879419 hopeflicker :
said by ninjatutle See Profile :

Half? And the other half would be legal content like Linux a handful of geeks use? Indy movies everyone watches? Wow patches that a billion people are playing? TV shows people think they have a right to share? Didn't the TV writers go on strike for something recently?

I guess I live in a bubble where I think everyone steals movies on P2P. I was thinking more along of the lines of people obtaining works like:

The Dark Knight
Step Brothers
The X Files: I Want to Believe
Journey to the Center of the Earth
Hancock
Hellboy II: The Golden Army
Wanted

Thanks to all for informing me, albeit it inaccurately of P2P usage.
So do you feel it is illegal to record (VCR) an episode of the Simposns and then loan it to your friend?
--
Religion does three things quite effectively: Divides people, Controls people, Deludes people.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20879419 Thu, 31 Jul 2008 17:27:44 EDT Re: This is alarming http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20879327 FLengineer : Personally I spend alot of time on revision3.com

If you think everyone steals movies on P2P then yes you do live in your own private bubble.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20879327 Thu, 31 Jul 2008 17:08:22 EDT Re: This is alarming http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20879326 odinb : Well, then there are about 29 million of us "geeks" out there according to this webpage: »i18n.counter.li.org/

Even if this is an estimate, Google said in 2004 that at least 1% of its visitors used Linux, and I have a feeling the linux community has picked up quite a bit since..
»www.google.com/press/zeitgeist/z···n04.html

Just because you live on planet Microsoft does not mean the rest of us do!

Maybe you should take off your shades and try linux, it is quite userfreindly these days, not to say faster and easier to install than windows.
--
"The same ferocity that our founders devoted to protect the freedom and independence of the press is now appropriate for our defense of the freedom of the internet. The stakes are the same: the survival of our Republic". Al Gore, The Assault on Reason]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20879326 Thu, 31 Jul 2008 17:07:57 EDT Re: This is alarming http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20879212 ptrowski :
said by ninjatutle See Profile :

Half? And the other half would be legal content like Linux a handful of geeks use? Indy movies everyone watches? Wow patches that a billion people are playing? TV shows people think they have a right to share? Didn't the TV writers go on strike for something recently?

I guess I live in a bubble where I think everyone steals movies on P2P. I was thinking more along of the lines of people obtaining works like:

The Dark Knight
Step Brothers
The X Files: I Want to Believe
Journey to the Center of the Earth
Hancock
Hellboy II: The Golden Army
Wanted

Thanks to all for informing me, albeit it inaccurately of P2P usage.
Odd, I did not even know these were all available, and you did?
--
"A religious war is like children fighting over who has the strongest imaginary friend."

Have you been touched by his noodly appendage? »www.venganza.org]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20879212 Thu, 31 Jul 2008 16:47:37 EDT Re: This is alarming http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20879165 ninjatutle : Half? And the other half would be legal content like Linux a handful of geeks use? Indy movies everyone watches? Wow patches that a billion people are playing? TV shows people think they have a right to share? Didn't the TV writers go on strike for something recently?

I guess I live in a bubble where I think everyone steals movies on P2P. I was thinking more along of the lines of people obtaining works like:

The Dark Knight
Step Brothers
The X Files: I Want to Believe
Journey to the Center of the Earth
Hancock
Hellboy II: The Golden Army
Wanted

Thanks to all for informing me, albeit it inaccurately of P2P usage. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20879165 Thu, 31 Jul 2008 16:39:43 EDT Re: This is alarming http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20879117 funchords :
said by Nightfall See Profile :

The only actual data I have seen was on Comcast's network in my area. I was fortunate enough to have a friend who worked at Comcast to show me the usage data for all of the high speed internet lines in the city as broken down by usage. It was an eye opening experience to be able to see that and to see that the top 5% of the lines in the city ate up more than the last 95%.

It would be useful to see that kind of data from every ISP.
I've seen the same kind of stat from a number of different involved and uninvolved sources that I believe it to be true.

The question is why is the network managed in such a way that 5% of the users can take 95% of the bandwidth? It's not the users -- users have no control over the size of the tiers, or the number of people they share bandwidth with. Why are the Cable Internet companies having so much trouble with this, especially?

It's not really BitTorrent's fault -- BitTorrent is simply the method users are choosing to transfer large files. About a dozen years ago, the method choice was FTP. About 7-8 years ago, the preferred method was HTTP. (Which is why most ISPs offer personal web pages but not personal FTP space) -- they wanted to get that traffic off of the last mile but FTP had fallen out of favor!

My thoughts -- »Re: WOW! Comcast cut off Dave Winer ... again
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
More fun, more features, Join BroadbandReports.com, it's free...
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20879117 Thu, 31 Jul 2008 16:30:34 EDT Re: This is alarming http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20879072 Nightfall :
said by hopeflicker See Profile :

said by aciddrink See Profile :

said by ninjatutle See Profile :

20% of all traffic consist of illegal activity.
90% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
and 50% of users pull numbers out of their ass without posting links to their claims. ;)
This is 100% true. I have not seen any actual data from an unbiased source that points out the actual data usage and breaks it down factually. Instead, we have a bunch of ISPs claiming that P2P is killing them, but we have others not on the inside saying they are full of crap. So who do we believe? The majority of users here on BBR believe that the ISP is full of crap. I would like to see some real data.

The only actual data I have seen was on Comcast's network in my area. I was fortunate enough to have a friend who worked at Comcast to show me the usage data for all of the high speed internet lines in the city as broken down by usage. It was an eye opening experience to be able to see that and to see that the top 5% of the lines in the city ate up more than the last 95%.

It would be useful to see that kind of data from every ISP.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20879072 Thu, 31 Jul 2008 16:23:12 EDT Re: This is alarming http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20879043 FLengineer :
said by ninjatutle See Profile :

Children should not be produced because they could turn out to be killers. Rottweilers have no place on this earth because they maul kiddies. People shouldn't live in the middle west due to tornadoes. I could go on all day long until I turn blue.

I love this logic.
You are the one that came up with that logic when you said all P2P is Illegal.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20879043 Thu, 31 Jul 2008 16:18:34 EDT Re: This is alarming http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20879040 FLengineer :
said by ninjatutle See Profile :

Show some numbers where the majority it not nearly all of P2P traded material is not illegal content?
"majority"
"nearly all"
These are keywords you missed on your first post when you suggested that all P2P is illegal. My personal opinion since there is no real data I am saying I WOULD GUESS it's probably around half legal and half illegal data if not a little more illegal than legal. However, attacking the P2P protocol which has serious advantages over other protocols is not the way to fight piracy.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20879040 Thu, 31 Jul 2008 16:17:06 EDT Re: This is alarming http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20879031 funchords : That's not my logic -- I don't support any of those ideas.

The Internet connects people, and people are going to do what people are going to do. They're like people that way.

Trying to use technology to control what people do is simply wrong, and the only reasons to spy on what people do (e.g. using DPI to come up with AT&T's figures) is to try to change it or monetize it somehow.

Managing the ISP doesn't require knowing what programs people are running. AT&T should shut up and ship my bits without inspecting them or interfering with them.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
More fun, more features, Join BroadbandReports.com, it's free...
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20879031 Thu, 31 Jul 2008 16:15:43 EDT Re: This is alarming http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20879007 ninjatutle : Children should not be produced because they could turn out to be killers. Rottweilers have no place on this earth because they maul kiddies. People shouldn't live in the middle west due to tornadoes. I could go on all day long until I turn blue.

I love this logic. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20879007 Thu, 31 Jul 2008 16:10:54 EDT Re: This is alarming http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20878994 funchords : Just about 100 percent of P2P file sharing takes place on the Transport Control Protocol (TCP) protocol. You could solve the Internet piracy problem if you got that protocol banned.

In fact, IP addresses are really responsible for this. What do we all need individual IP addresses for, anyway? With no IP addresses, there are no peers. We can all be the client to one big server.

And we really don't need all these duplicate servers, they just take up extra bandwidth and provide us with superfluous choices. We just need one of everything.

Hey, how about an Internet where we just typed what we want, such as "GO TRAVEL" or maybe just a keyword, "TRAVEL," where the Internet's official travel agency took care of us all.

Ah yes, the perfect Internet.

;)
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
More fun, more features, Join BroadbandReports.com, it's free...
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20878994 Thu, 31 Jul 2008 16:07:20 EDT Re: This is alarming http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20878989 nasadude :
said by ninjatutle See Profile :

...
You know very well as with everyone here, what P2P is mainly used for.
Well, that's the "conventional wisdom" that the media companies and ILECs have been able to push into place. I have never seen any data to back this up, but if you scream something loud enough over and over and over, it can't help but sink into the consciousness of those not paying much attention (like the press, congress and 98% of the public).

and now there is evidence (although not trusted because it goes against the "conventional wisdom") that P2P use is declining - woe unto the ISPs! what will they use to scare us about bandwidth scarcity now?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20878989 Thu, 31 Jul 2008 16:06:43 EDT Re: This is alarming http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20878986 FLengineer : CHILD PORN WEBSITES!!!!!!!

BAN HTTP..... wait umm yea HTTP = Illegal!!!!!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20878986 Thu, 31 Jul 2008 16:06:00 EDT Re: This is alarming http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20878936 funchords :
said by ninjatutle See Profile :

Quit insulting everyone's intelligence on this site. Obtaining movies and music illegally is what one does when they fire up their torrent app.
Translation: Your factual rebuttals and evidence won't sway me from insisting that you're wrong, anyway.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
More fun, more features, Join BroadbandReports.com, it's free...
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20878936 Thu, 31 Jul 2008 15:57:25 EDT Re: This is alarming http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20878869 karlmarx : One question. You say most torrents are illegal? Ok, I'll give you that. The question is, why do you care? I mean, if you're not doing anything illegal, it doesn't affect you? Who are you to say what someone else does with their connection? If you are complaining about the BANDWIDTH they use, well, it's not their fault. They are USING WHAT THEY WERE SOLD. If you have a legitimate grievance, complain to comcrap for selling more than they can provide. Tell comcrap to LOWER THE SPEEDS, that solves everyone problem.

So again, why is piracy such a problem for you. It doesn't affect you in any way. Oh, wait, you're a musician? Guess what, piracy doesn't affect your sales. A pirated copy != sold copy, simple as that.
--
The happiest countries are the most secular. The struggle AGAINST corporations is the struggle FOR humanity!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20878869 Thu, 31 Jul 2008 15:45:41 EDT Re: This is alarming http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20878852 Matt :
said by ninjatutle See Profile :

You know very well as with everyone here, what P2P is mainly used for.
That is an unreasonable, tiresome, non-factual based argument. We all ASSUME we know what it is being used for. Just like up until this article was posted, you probably would have ASSUMED that P2P was the majority of internet traffic.

Until a study is done that proves that the majority of P2P traffic is illegal, I simply can't believe it and spewing the corporate line based on an assumption with no factual basis is asinine.

Too many other legit services use P2P. Hell, I just downloaded about 7GB of WoW downloads this past weekend for my neighbor via P2P.

The FACT that P2P use is declining while YouTube and Hulu (non-P2P video based distribution methods, just like Netflix online) are rising would lead one to believe that P2P video distribution services like Joost are losing viewers. Hulu is a much better product than Joost and the other P2P TV distributors.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20878852 Thu, 31 Jul 2008 15:42:35 EDT Re: This is alarming http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20878841 Dogfather : Take one look at what the top search results are on BT search engines and you'll see that the mass of traffic is illegal. And so what if it is. Before BT it was Kazaa, before that Napster, before that Usenet...and after BT it will be something else.

The ISPs and content creators will NEVER defeat piracy and in their efforts all they do is piss off legit users of their services or products.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20878841 Thu, 31 Jul 2008 15:40:47 EDT Re: This is alarming http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20878808 ptrowski :
said by ninjatutle See Profile :

Show some numbers where the majority it not nearly all of P2P traded material is not illegal content?
I never said it's not being used for some illegal content, now did I? You are the one who is saying that the 20% constitutes piracy.

Of course it is being used for nefarious purposes. I never doubted that. But you assume that P2P = piracy which is not true.

Hell, even Redi Whip whipped cream can be used in ways it wasn't intended. But I am not going to say all dairy products are evil.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20878808 Thu, 31 Jul 2008 15:33:22 EDT Re: This is alarming http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20878785 ninjatutle : Show some numbers where the majority it not nearly all of P2P traded material is not illegal content?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20878785 Thu, 31 Jul 2008 15:27:33 EDT Re: This is alarming http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20878766 FLengineer : 2nd ptrowski]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20878766 Thu, 31 Jul 2008 15:24:53 EDT Re: This is alarming http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20878747 ptrowski :
said by ninjatutle See Profile :

Quit insulting everyone's intelligence on this site. Obtaining movies and music illegally is what one does when they fire up their torrent app.
Please show me the numbers you used to come up with all of that. Wait, you can't. So please do go troll somewhere else and quit wasting everyone's time here. People inclduing myself have shown multiple applications, uses, and 110% legal uses, but yet you keep with the same mantra everytime P2P is mentioned on the front page.

Go bother some other site, kiddie.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20878747 Thu, 31 Jul 2008 15:22:07 EDT Re: This is alarming http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20878746 FLengineer : DSL vs. Cable is completely subjective to not only your market but your particular street.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20878746 Thu, 31 Jul 2008 15:22:06 EDT Re: This is alarming http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20878740 TheWizardhfl : See, you are a little misguided there. Anime when produced in japan is internationally copyrighted. And yes, they have pursued methods to put an end to some of the distribution. Media Factory Inc. is well known for their issuing of C&D orders to anime "fansubbers" and Bandai has issued warnings publicly in the past regarding specific title releases.. For the most part, anime fansubs tend to rest in a gray area. The majority of production companies simply choose to overlook the issue for various reasons ranging from lack of resources to fear of alienating their consumer base.

When an anime is licensed in the US, the most notable change in regards to the topic is that the US company who licensed the title locally has the right to file C&D orders and lawsuits against anyone distributing unauthorized releases of their titles online.

It's not about who has their own idea on the matter or not. It's a matter of it's still illegal either way. The only difference is who has the right to pursue the matter legally.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20878740 Thu, 31 Jul 2008 15:19:51 EDT Re: This is alarming http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20878734 dentman42 :
said by Amadeus See Profile :

I do. I think all the ppl that used p2p on dsl networks changed over to other isp's like comcast, verizon and etc because the speeds. ATT dsl doesn't have speed
I have better bandwidth on my AT&T DSL than on my Road Runner. Even the top RR tier here only matches AT&T's Elite tier's upstream of 768k. I'm not going to pay $10 more per month for only 256k more upstream on RR.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20878734 Thu, 31 Jul 2008 15:18:42 EDT Re: This is alarming http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20878733 ninjatutle : Quit insulting everyone's intelligence on this site. Obtaining movies and music illegally is what one does when they fire up their torrent app. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20878733 Thu, 31 Jul 2008 15:18:34 EDT Re: This is alarming http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20878712 bjbrock : Not all p2p traffic is illegal. A lot of it is legitimate file sharing. So your assumption is wrong and your numbers are wrong.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20878712 Thu, 31 Jul 2008 15:14:00 EDT Re: This is alarming http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20878692 FLengineer : P2P = Illegal ??

Yes some of it is, some of it isn't. I bet you also think all Muslims are terrorist, too.

»www.bittorrent.com/
»revision3.com/
»beta.legaltorrents.com/
May Fav »torrentfreak.com/sundance-winner···torrent/
That's a good movie and was released on P2P by the producers.

You say all P2P is Illegal, I just provided proof that P2P is NOT Illegal. Revise your statement to Sharing Copyrighted material VIA P2P is Illegal.

EDIT: You mentioned World of Warcraft being insignificant.
2.5M players in North America.
2.4.0 patch distributed via P2P a week in advance was 256.11MB
That's 91.5TB A DAY]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20878692 Thu, 31 Jul 2008 15:11:11 EDT Re: This is alarming http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20878522 ptrowski :
said by ninjatutle See Profile :

RTFA

"about 1/3 Web (non video/audio streams), 1/3 Web video/audio streams, and 1/5 P2P."
You RTFA, is says P2P, not illegal activity. But your trolling once again is easily noticed.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20878522 Thu, 31 Jul 2008 14:41:09 EDT Re: This is alarming http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20878515 axus : Actually I believe we have some treaties with other countries protecting each others' copyrights:

»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pa···treaties

The anime companies just don't have an RIAA running around suing people and spreading the word that there's free stuff on the 'net. Probably to their benefit!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20878515 Thu, 31 Jul 2008 14:40:38 EDT Re: This is alarming http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20878493 Amadeus : I do. I think all the ppl that used p2p on dsl networks changed over to other isp's like comcast, verizon and etc because the speeds. ATT dsl doesn't have speed
--
Think Ahead. Learn More. Solve Now!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20878493 Thu, 31 Jul 2008 14:38:20 EDT Re: This is alarming http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20878345 pspcrazy : Well what about Anime which is around 95 percent of my bittorrent downloads. Do you consider those illegal? Anime companies in the U.S can't touch anything other then the ones they licensed. They are not illegal unless licensed in the u.s thus not making them illegal. Then again each anime fan has his own idea on it.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20878345 Thu, 31 Jul 2008 14:15:43 EDT Re: This is alarming http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20878331 pspcrazy : With 100 percent confidence the post below me will be asking for another percentage.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20878331 Thu, 31 Jul 2008 14:14:11 EDT Re: This is alarming http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20878266 ninjatutle : I'm not buying the endless Linux disto downloads, World Of War patches and home movies to grandmother so yes, ILLEGAL material is being passed.

You know very well as with everyone here, what P2P is mainly used for.

EDIT: Reply to Flenginear]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20878266 Thu, 31 Jul 2008 14:02:29 EDT Re: This is alarming http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20878212 FLengineer : That sounds about right to me. But, I'm lost in the convo here, are you saying that P2P = illegal?

EDIT: Question is to ninjatutle]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20878212 Thu, 31 Jul 2008 13:53:47 EDT Re: This is alarming http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20878174 ninjatutle : Again, I will refer you to Mr. Karl Bode See Profile if you feel his reporting is inadequate or the integrity of his linked reports are inaccurate.

This is going in circles.....]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20878174 Thu, 31 Jul 2008 13:46:21 EDT Re: This is alarming http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20878131 hopeflicker : Ummm, ATT claims this:

AT&T says that as of June, AT&T traffic was about 1/3 Web (non video/audio streams), 1/3 Web video/audio streams, and 1/5 P2P.

so i ask again, do you believe this?
--
Religion does three things quite effectively: Divides people, Controls people, Deludes people.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20878131 Thu, 31 Jul 2008 13:40:21 EDT Re: This is alarming http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20878097 ninjatutle : IDK, ask Karl Bode See Profile, he was the person who posted it. Why don't you question his character?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20878097 Thu, 31 Jul 2008 13:36:32 EDT Re: This is alarming http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20878060 hopeflicker :
said by ninjatutle See Profile :

RTFA

"about 1/3 Web (non video/audio streams), 1/3 Web video/audio streams, and 1/5 P2P."
And you believe what they say? :hmm:
--
Religion does three things quite effectively: Divides people, Controls people, Deludes people.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20878060 Thu, 31 Jul 2008 13:31:01 EDT Re: This is alarming http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20878055 hopeflicker :
said by deadzoned See Profile :

What kind of Kool-Aid did you get to drink? Something good like Cherry or Grape? Hope it's good and that it is quenching that thirst of yours for corporate propaganda.
Probably thinks that borrowing book from the library , recording an episode of the Simpsons, or loaning the new Britney Spears CD to a friend is piracy too.
--
Religion does three things quite effectively: Divides people, Controls people, Deludes people.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20878055 Thu, 31 Jul 2008 13:30:04 EDT Re: This is alarming http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20878034 ninjatutle :
said by hopeflicker See Profile :

said by aciddrink See Profile :

said by ninjatutle See Profile :

20% of all traffic consist of illegal activity.
90% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
and 50% of users pull numbers out of their ass without posting links to their claims. ;)
RTFA

"about 1/3 Web (non video/audio streams), 1/3 Web video/audio streams, and 1/5 P2P."]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20878034 Thu, 31 Jul 2008 13:26:49 EDT Re: This is alarming http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20878028 deadzoned : What kind of Kool-Aid did you get to drink? Something good like Cherry or Grape? Hope it's good and that it is quenching that thirst of yours for corporate propaganda. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20878028 Thu, 31 Jul 2008 13:26:04 EDT Re: This is alarming http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20878018 ninjatutle : edit:

Wrong reply.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20878018 Thu, 31 Jul 2008 13:24:10 EDT There are http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20878016 avd706 : There are lies, dammed lies and statistics...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20878016 Thu, 31 Jul 2008 13:23:54 EDT Re: This is alarming http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20878009 cornelius785 : with 98% confidence that 90% of the people reading will believe it]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20878009 Thu, 31 Jul 2008 13:23:14 EDT Re: This is alarming http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20877966 hopeflicker :
said by aciddrink See Profile :

said by ninjatutle See Profile :

20% of all traffic consist of illegal activity.
90% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
and 50% of users pull numbers out of their ass without posting links to their claims. ;)
--
Religion does three things quite effectively: Divides people, Controls people, Deludes people.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20877966 Thu, 31 Jul 2008 13:15:07 EDT Re: This is alarming http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20877947 aciddrink :
said by ninjatutle See Profile :

20% of all traffic consist of illegal activity.
90% of all statistics are made up on the spot.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20877947 Thu, 31 Jul 2008 13:11:09 EDT This is alarming http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20877902 ninjatutle : 20% of all traffic consist of illegal activity.

All those users lost to Comcast must be the heavy users. Good news for the rest of the legit users. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20877902 Thu, 31 Jul 2008 13:02:50 EDT