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globus999
join:2008-05-15
| reply to otty
Re: Moronic ISPs!
said by otty  :Globus999...True enough a large public awareness campaign is what we need. Who's gonna pay for that? Not the lean profit interested ISPs can make from wholesaling and being screwed at every turn... Look, I don't want to sound like a prick, but, did you actually read the thread? I have been adovcating all along a dirt-cheap strategy. Simple. Each ISP e-mails to their own customers. They let them know what is going on and what will they endure. Each ISP sets-up a webpage with a LOOOOOOOOONG e-mailing list of "people that matter" (i.e. politicians, administrators, etc) with a standard letter and points their customers to it. Let their own customers pull the trigger. See how much the "insiders" and the "power elite" like all their e-mail in-boxes flooded by angry citizens. Even better. Since there isn't a single webpage, it is a distributed attack, something aking to a DDS.
Do it today.
Repeat until defeated.
Simple. Cheap.
Total price?: 2000 $ per ISP.
Satisfaction in getting back at scum: Priceless  | |
otty
join:2008-10-24
Toronto, ON | reply to globus999
Globus999...True enough a large public awareness campaign is what we need. Who's gonna pay for that? Not the lean profit interested ISPs can make from wholesaling and being screwed at every turn... | |
Omr
join:2004-01-10
M1S-1B3
| reply to globus999
Finger pointing does no good, but this was most definitely a PR disaster. We were right in our argument, but some how this simple logic went by passed most users. We were complacent ... but I believe the ISP's weren't all fully to blame some did there part, some went above and beyond, some just faded into the background but we the consumers had the most to lose, hence we were the biggest failure.
Lets not start sulking though, as most things in life require a tipping point, today wasn't. Everyday that goes by more people join us in disillusionment at where our internet is going. We'll hit the point where the pot boils over ... and there will be a cascade of hurt waiting for todays victors ... I know tomorrow I'll double my effort in getting the public involved, those who don't get it let them get hosed by Bell ... it only deepens there anger when they realize where there internet went. | |
davidbrown
join:2005-05-31
Toronto, ON
 ·Bell Sympatico
| reply to globus999
Let me explain how this works.
Rogers has a iphone plan but they know people are going to hate it.
So they put out a plan that they know is nuts and people go nuts.
Then rogers relents and changes the plan to what they wanted to do in the first place and people think they have won and gotten a better deal.
Rogers is laughing its butt off because they got what they wanted in the first place and they could care less about pr since only they have the iphone.
None of this is a secret now and its doesn't matter for rogers since they have these people on a contract they are stuck with.
Nothing we did would change what the crtc does and although i have no faith in most of the crtc one guy there doesn't like bell/rogers to much and he has the power to do something.
In the end though it wont matter since bell got its extra month and time to roll out its new hose the user idea.
And when that goes to the crtc they well have more then enough time to do something else tell the other isp go under.
Its what they wanted this whole time and though they would like to win with the crtc is wasn't necessary to their long term goals. | |
Scrappy2
join:2007-09-28
Kingston, ON
·TekSavvy Solutions..
| reply to globus999
Seems pointless to rant here WHY NOT call all those PEOPLE up and rant at them see how far that gets you.
As hard as it may seem to you, most people don't live in front of the computer chewing up gb's of data all day long.
So that's the problem(if you want to call it that).
People have get out and socialize not sit in a darkened room and think about their next rant.
Plan and simple most people don't know or care about this whole situation, so why should all the isp's? | |
duhduh
@teksavvy.com | reply to globus999
Globus didn't take his medication today? | |
Cubytus
join:2007-08-24 | reply to EUS
For most of the population, it IS essential. Maybe not for blue-collar workers out there. | |
EUS
Kill cancer
Premium
join:2002-09-10
Montreal, QC
clubs: 
·ELECTRONICBOX
| reply to Cubytus
said by Cubytus :The point is that Internet access IS essential in developed countries, and dedicated phone line isn't anymore. Very few occupations in the third sector, if any, can afford to be disconnected. Sorry, that's just the way it is. However, taking it further that way, declaring Internet access a public necessity (as well as SMS for emergency alerts) would open the door to force ISPs to not try to control it. Canada could pay for a small part of this (after all, don'T we pay more than enough taxes?) to keep prices honest. Connectivity is NOT an essential service. Period.
One day, maybe.... | |
Cubytus
join:2007-08-24
 ·Skype
·Vonage
·TekSavvy Solutions..
·Radioactif
| reply to globus999
The point is that Internet access IS essential in developed countries, and dedicated phone line isn't anymore. Very few occupations in the third sector, if any, can afford to be disconnected. Sorry, that's just the way it is.
However, taking it further that way, declaring Internet access a public necessity (as well as SMS for emergency alerts) would open the door to force ISPs to not try to control it. Canada could pay for a small part of this (after all, don'T we pay more than enough taxes?) to keep prices honest. | |
EUS
Kill cancer
Premium
join:2002-09-10
Montreal, QC
clubs:
1 edit | reply to diskace
I agree, and was kind of my point, except this is a luxury item, not a necessity. It does not change the fact that if half a million people dropped all bell/videtron/cogeco services for a couple of months (I'm thinking summer), corp's would notice. | |
diskace
Ebox Senior
Premium,VIP
join:2002-02-21
| reply to EUS
said by EUS :Now, how many people in Canada, or even visitors to this site are willing to let go of their non-essential connectivity? Personally, I'm getting there, but not there yet. This is like the fuel/Gas boycott. Few people didn't changed much to worth changing the whole business. | |
EUS
Kill cancer
Premium
join:2002-09-10
Montreal, QC
clubs:
·ELECTRONICBOX
1 edit | reply to globus999
IMHO the only way to have these corp.'s change their practices would be for all home users (non-essential connectivity) to cancel services. That's it. No more internet. Cut off the $$$. You'll see how fast Videotron/Cogeco/Bell will enable services/withdraw caps/treat customers right again.
Want to really hurt them? Cancel your cable and phone services while you're at it.
Now, how many people in Canada, or even visitors to this site are willing to let go of their non-essential connectivity?
Personally, I'm getting there, but not there yet.
--
~ Project Hope ~ | |
Arbalister
join:2007-11-24
St Catharines, ON
·TekSavvy Solutions..
| reply to globus999
said by globus999 :said by Ikarasu :Pretty sure CAIP consists of more then just Teksavvy. Theres A LOT of ISPs against bell, and standing up/fighting for their rights... Teksavvy is just in the spotlight because it has the most active users. If you bother to read the forums...You'd see that at least Acanac is vocal about the fight also. Oh...Oh...Oh... and I forgot. Tek AT LEAST tried to involved people with their Ottawa rally. Where was Acanac then? THAT'S why the ONLY ISP that I excluded from my rant was Tek. Because at least they TRIED! However ineffective their process was. But, they TRIED! Where were all the "others"???? Lemmeguess..... come to think about it... I don't even need to guess... Sorry but...as one of the indie ISP's that you so disparage, there's no easy way to put this: You're an idiot.
Do you *seriously* think we're *not* taking steps to educate our customers about this? Do you *seriously* think CAIP is "an icipient lobbying effort?" CAIP has been around a dozen years. They are a well established Ottawa lobby group, and they're responsible, to some degree, for the rights and freedoms you've had on the net to date. * years ago when the CRTC thought about regulating the internet - you know, Internet Canadian Content regulations, just like on TV - guess who told 'em to butt out? CAIP and the indies.
We don't win every battle - but we *do* fight them. Just because you, in your narrow minded, narrowly focused perspective, can't see that doesn't mean that it's not happening. Some of us have been doing this for more then a decade. You probably couldn't even spell "internet" when I started in this business, and coincidently, sent my first response to a CRTC proceeding.
You're furious? Who the h**l do you think *paid* for Bell's entry into this market? Not like we had a choice - we had to buy services from them. And ever since the CRTC allowed their entry, they've done nothing but try to shut indies down. We've shrunk from 85% of the market to 6% in 5 years. And *you* have the balls to be furious. Pagh. | |
anon149
@vaxination.ca
| reply to globus999
Globus may have fairly irate wording, but he has a point.
Consider that even Teksavvy refused to send an email to all their customers advising them of the throttling issue, and inviting themn to attend a rally. They did send an email to warn them there would be limited support on that day.
And that is the ISP that has been the most involved with the throttling issue.
What you need to understand is that for smaller ISPs, they don't mind the throttling and have put some sticks in CAIP's wheels.
You also need to understand that when lawyers get involved, tehcnical concepts go out the door unless they can be explained in less than 3 lines of text.
There has been plenty of technical arguments destroying Bell's 86 page work of fiction sent to the CAIP lawyer. No response given. And that lawyer chose to focus solely on the argument that there was no congestion, and refused to cosnider other arguments because it would be tantamount to admitting there is congestion.
Of course, the CRTC will simply rule that while there may not be a serious congestion issue today, that Bell has the right to be pro-active and install those devices to prevbent problems in the future. But that is a bet CAIP decided to take.
Meanwhile Bell will be wining, dining and golfing with the right people in Ottawa all summer long.
National Capital Freenet was also quite active in the protest and did a fair amount of local publicity.
Bell has the right formula: make its tech support useless so that when customers find their internet is extremely slow, they don't bother calling Bell to complain. This not only reduces call load, but also allows Bell to claim that there are very few complaints.
Now, take this over to all those independant ISPs. What percentage of their customers are really aware of the throttling issue ? DSLR represents only a tiny proportion of the customer bases of independant ISPs.
Considering so few ISPs have truly been outspoken on this issue, the amount of media coverage we've had is pretty good. But it is nowhere near enough to force the CRTC to side against Bell.
So, yes, the ISPs could have been far more outspoken and better mobilised their customer bases.
People in general do not understand the throttliing issue, and they do not understand how the competitive ADSL service works. It is hard enough to educate politicians and even the CRTC (especially since Bell is purposefully lying in its documents). Educating the general population would require full page ads in major newspapers.
And unless this is done, the CRTC will be in a good position to provide its default"we support Bell" decision in October. | |
Last Parade
One of the Brightest Stars
join:2002-10-07
Port Colborne, ON | reply to globus999
This thread really should've been deleted on sight... | |
eots
join:2003-02-04
·TekSavvy Solutions..
3 edits | reply to globus999
You were bitching about wanting a Class Action suit back in May »Bell throttling - we need a class action suit, so start one instead of expending all your energy complaining about customers not being involved in the fight! | |
Ikarasu
join:2004-01-09
Port Coquitlam, BC
·ITalkBB
·TekSavvy Solutions..
| reply to globus999
said by globus999 :HUH??? which planet do you live in??? www.candianisp.com lists 325 ISPs. How many of them have done anything, anything at all to "keep everyone updated"??? 1, 2 perhaps?? That is PRECISELY my point. They are NOT updating the people. They are NOT engaging their customers. Geeezzz!!! how much more blind can you be???? 325... You do realize thats every single Dialup provider also? You're the blind one... what does this have to do with EVERY single ISP? Right now the issue is bell screwing over its wholesalers. Bell has probably under 5-10 wholesalers. This issue doesn't concern anyone else... and incase you havent noticed, the huge major ISPS such as Telus, Shaw, Rogers, are all FOR throttling, so why would they chime in and update their users? Theyre FOR throttling.
said by globus999 : That's why Bell has stopped throttling, is not coming out with a new way to pulverize competition every 5 minutes, the CRTC is bitchslappig Bell and the PM is siding with the Minister who is siding with Net Neutrality. Copyright law is not under attack and we are getting excellent service. I see... Sorry about my ways... I repent... I must have been reading the news from a different country... not Canada... Incase you haven't noticed.. this issue has got a lot of publicity. CBC, Michaelgeist, GlobeAndmail, Yahoo, google, Hell.. it isn't even affecting people out west, yet it's been pretty big news over here also. However it's a regulation battle, and people being involved is only PART of the step.
You make it sound like it's as easy as people boycotting bell, and then they'd cave in. Well, hate to break it to you... but in the real world, life isn't that simple. People NEED phone service, they need Internet service, and for some of them Bell is the only option. Not to mention bell makes more money off of wholesalers then they do off of their own lines, so switching to a wholesaler isn't exactly going to hurt them.
Bah. Your too stubborn to see things in any light besides the way you see them, so I'll end it at that. I'll just say 1 thing... With throttling, Teksavvy stands to make more money by customers using less bandwidth. Theyre fighting for Net neutrality, and their beliefs... they're not fighting for Self interest. Sure, they get a lot of publicity for this, Butt hey could have just sat back and let whatever happens happen, and I'm sure the throttling issue wouldn't have dented their pockets at all.
Many users are grateful for what CAIP has been doing, We understand in the real world there are limitation and strategies, I myself think Teksavvy, Acanac, and CAIP is doing a great job fighting this, and I'm sure many others agree. So... have a temper tantrum, call them cowards, whatever makes you feel better at night, I'm glad your trying to help the cause... but I think your going about it all wrong. | |
globus999
join:2008-05-15 | reply to globus999
That's it boys and girls. I won't update this thread anymore. There is more than enough info in here to win this war. It is now up to the ISPs to change tactics. I did my part. I can only hope you do yours. Signing-off. | |
globus999
join:2008-05-15
1 edit | reply to Ikarasu
said by Ikarasu :Whatever his point is... it's making me want to stop bothering to even fight, it's more annoying then helpful. Yet here you are. Engaged.
said by Ikarasu :What have you done to help besides come in here and complain, A great deal more than the average user has done, wich is NOTHING.
said by Ikarasu : call out ISPS who've spent thousands of dollars on advertisements, 10K+ on lawyers, And failed miserably, so far. Precisely my point. Spending $$$ is NOT the way forward. Engaging customers is!.
said by Ikarasu : on ISPS who've been very vocal and kept everyone updated on the status unlike most corporate companies would do? HUH??? which planet do you live in??? www.candianisp.com lists 325 ISPs. How many of them have done anything, anything at all to "keep everyone updated"??? 1, 2 perhaps?? That is PRECISELY my point. They are NOT updating the people. They are NOT engaging their customers. Geeezzz!!! how much more blind can you be????
said by Ikarasu :Did you goto the rally? No, I can't affort to loose my job, have a family to support. However, did pester a great deal of publications and on-line sources about it. What did YOU do that had such a wonderful impact on the goverment and the CRTC??
said by Ikarasu :Did you even submit a CRTC reply? 17 comments and counting. How many have YOU submitted??
said by Ikarasu : Have you done 1 thing besides post this topic complaining about everyone else? Yes, a great deal of things. Some of them I am willing to disclose, such as e-mailing potiticians, CRTC, mailing s-mail (not the easy/cheapo e-mail) to CRTC heads, promoted other's people submissions, etc. And some I am not willing to discuss. Point in case, I have exerted a gread deal of effort. HOWEVER, I do recognize that all my efforts are peanuts if ISPs do not engage customers. Hence, this tread.
said by Ikarasu :If/When you do, and you decide to grow up and not demand do this/do that, maybe then when/if you come back... people will actually listen to you, and not just dismiss everything you say. Sure because you did??? nothing??? I see... As to people "dismissing" well... this thread had 301 reads so far. Not bad I would say.
said by Ikarasu :Lots of people post ideas/suggestions on how to fight this, Which are all welcomed. I never said otherwise.
said by Ikarasu : and I'm sure while they listen to you, the ISPS who have 1000x more experience then you, paid for advice from lawyers, and a thought out plan, know how to handle the situation better then you. I see. That's why they are winning. That's why Bell has stopped throttling, is not comming out with a new way to pulverize competition every 5 minutes, the CRTC is bitchslappig Bell and the PM is siding with the Minister who is siding with Net Neutrality. Copyright law is not under attack and we are getting excellent service. I see... Sorry about my ways... I repent... I must have been reading the news from a different country... not Canada...
Also, I am getting sick and tired of hearing the same tune. The ISPs have spent thousands of $$$... ok... sure... WHO EXACTLY has done so, other than Tek and perhaps Acanac???? The remining ISPs are NOT doing so. Furthermore, that is precisely my point. It is the WRONG tactic. Bell can outspend ANY ISP. Rocky said it himself. Hence my point. What it is required is a dirt-cheap tactic that works. This would be ENGAGE YOUR CUSTOMERS!!!
said by Ikarasu : However, from what I've seen...they've always been open to suggestion and communicate with everyone... but I'm sure posts like yours get 1 glance, and they just walk away. "Open to suggestions" funny, very funny. Nice way to put it. Why not "will take it under advicement" or "will consult it amongst ourselves" or "don't call, we will call you". Sounds familiar??? Point is, they had what so far? 3, 4 months??? What have they done??? NOTHING of any significance.
If they read this post and walk away, then they deserve to get bankrupt. Bottom line is this: it is THEIR business however, they refuse to fight. They have, mostly, offloaded the fight to Rocky and then to us. And, let me say this one more time: IT IS THEIR FIGHT FIRST! Nice, nicely done. I am impressed NOT!
said by Ikarasu :Good job on telling the ISPS that are fighting for YOUR rights how stupid and wimpy they are! Not the best way to motivate them/anyone else, or earn their respect. I'd say your thread lost all chance at being taken seriously the first 5 lines. Geezzz you got this one SERIOUSLY BACKWARDS. They are NOT fighting for MY rights. They are fighting for their SELF-INTEREST. For their BUSINESS. For THEIR RIGHT to make $$$$. When they fight...which they have not done much of it so far.
Wrt MY rights, I am fighting for them. Posting this and doing everything else I can do. Coincidentaly, their self-interest lines-up (to a certain degree) with my rights. BUT THAT'S IT!
Geeezz!!! how much more uninformed can you get??? This is a captialist society. The way it is supposed to work is that "enlightened self-interest" helps society. This may be ONE of the few cases where that may actually take place.... If only ISPs would start fighting.... | |
globus999
join:2008-05-15
| reply to Guspaz
said by Guspaz :Sorry, but you come across as an angry troll bitching about non-existing issues... HUH??? "non-existing issues"??? HUH???
Soo according to you everything is just honky dory and if it isn't, dontmatter cuz ISPs are doing such a wonderful job at fixing it and winning at all steps... OK... I see...
Unfortunatley, by posting this you come across as somebody living with you head stuck in a paper bag... sad... really sad... because we all know this is not the case. | |
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