seige101
join:2003-06-23
Palmer, MA
 ·Comcast Digital Vo..
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 ·Verizon Online DSL
| reply to jwersan
Re: Cost of Worker Replacement Must Be Decreasing
said by jwersan  :I have also been on union jobs where the "customer" orders us to do work a certain way, usually in violation of electrical codes, or we are out! If thats the case honestly you or your company should refuse to do that work, union shop or non union shop. |
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Shamayim
I already have a Messiah.
Premium
join:2002-09-23
| reply to jwersan
said by jwersan :said by seige101 :said by jwersan :Union labor is more highly trained and more efficient than their non-union counterparts, so the pay differential is negligible and in most cases a job can be cheaper with union workers. I call bs right there. I am currently working in a large building, the previous electrical contractor in the building was union, I am non union. I am retro fitting line voltage HCAC controls, and the shoddy work the previous company did was a joke. There is no consistency, some blatant unsafe connections and then the units where they installed the controls but never made the final connections. Well I too have seen the opposite, BLATANT electrical code violations and numerous unsafe conditions by non-union electrical workers.. Even at the job I am at now, the electrical code violations would run pages, if the inspectors were to show up, and this is in a building that is historically non-union. I have also been on union jobs where the "customer" orders us to do work a certain way, usually in violation of electrical codes, or we are out! Someone ought to start a blog... the whistleblower kind!
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Who is Jesus? and Why it matters (to YOU).
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jwersan
R.I.P. Mom, Brian, Ziggy, and Max.
Premium
join:2004-12-20
Port Jefferson Station, NY
clubs:
·Optimum Online
| reply to seige101
said by seige101 :said by jwersan :Union labor is more highly trained and more efficient than their non-union counterparts, so the pay differential is negligible and in most cases a job can be cheaper with union workers. I call bs right there. I am currently working in a large building, the previous electrical contractor in the building was union, I am non union. I am retro fitting line voltage HCAC controls, and the shoddy work the previous company did was a joke. There is no consistency, some blatant unsafe connections and then the units where they installed the controls but never made the final connections. Well I too have seen the opposite, BLATANT electrical code violations and numerous unsafe conditions by non-union electrical workers..
Even at the job I am at now, the electrical code violations would run pages, if the inspectors were to show up, and this is in a building that is historically non-union.
I have also been on union jobs where the "customer" orders us to do work a certain way, usually in violation of electrical codes, or we are out!
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RIAA/MPAA... Bite me!!!!
In constant search for intelligent life on Earth! |
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seige101
join:2003-06-23
Palmer, MA
·Comcast Digital Vo..
·Comcast
·Verizon Online DSL
| reply to jwersan
said by jwersan :Union labor is more highly trained and more efficient than their non-union counterparts, so the pay differential is negligible and in most cases a job can be cheaper with union workers. I call bs right there. I am currently working in a large building, the previous electrical contractor in the building was union, I am non union. I am retro fitting line voltage HCAC controls, and the shoddy work the previous company did was a joke. There is no consistency, some blatant unsafe connections and then the units where they installed the controls but never made the final connections. |
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jwersan
R.I.P. Mom, Brian, Ziggy, and Max.
Premium
join:2004-12-20
Port Jefferson Station, NY
clubs:
·Optimum Online
| reply to SteveCon
Re: Cost of Worker Replacement Must Be Decreasing
I find the posts by people who are against Unions quite interesting, and almost laughable to boot.
Without beating a dead horse here, too much, I have come to realise that most people who despise unions are either jealous or have worked in a retail/supermarket union, and think their experiences are indicative of all unions.
While not a perfect system, every worker in this country owes their job and the benefits/conditions to a Union worker and the union they are members of, for fighting for those benefits/rights.
Unions exist to fight for worker's rights and to protect their membership from management abuses.
Union or not, a bad worker will be terminated, average and above will continue to work, as it should be.
Workers have ZERO say in what happens at any company, so they can not be held accountable for mismanagement at the companies they work for.
Union labor is more highly trained and more efficient than their non-union counterparts, so the pay differential is negligible and in most cases a job can be cheaper with union workers.
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RIAA/MPAA... Bite me!!!!
In constant search for intelligent life on Earth! |
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SteveCon
IBEW 2222 Boston, MA
Premium
join:2004-09-02
Burlington, MA | reply to SilentMan
I think your reply was intended for someone other than me. |
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supergirl
join:2007-03-20
Pensacola, FL
·Cox VOIP
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| reply to Hellrazor
Unions are only 8.8% of all U.S. labor (not counting gov't union jobs--in other words, lazy gov't employees). That was twice that about 15 years ago.
Corruption in unions and unions effectively breaking companies, like GM, Ford, with their overpaid wages is why they are on their way out. GM and Ford's stupidity is 50% to blame but the other 50% rest on their unions. Only professional unions, have no idea why, are increasing. If unions, the CWA, think they will unionize WalMart, they are on crack or herion. They unionized other grocery stores and look at the results--WalMart crushes them. I really don't see how Winn Dixie stays afloat next to a WalMart here when prices are about 10% lower at WalMart. Well, 4 employees at Winn Dixie and maybe 30-40 at WalMart is why. And, no, Winn Dixie employees make minimum wage, which is less than WalMart ($10 an hour for most).
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Saving the world keeps me busy. However, I find Earth very primitive from my home planet of Krypton.
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SilentMan
join:2002-07-15
New York, NY
| reply to SteveCon
said by SteveCon :Dead on, Brother! Amazing to see people here defending a multibillion dollar company they have no stake in against the workers who keep the company going and making millions for its execs and top investors. You people defending corporations are just little joes with no class conscience who are always potential victims of these corporate vultures you like to defend, keep that in mind.
Workers Unite! |
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Corydon
Cultivant son jardin
Premium
join:2008-02-18
Denver, CO
clubs:
·Comcast
| reply to pnh102
I'd point out that Circuit City's management is currently learning painfully that firing your most experienced workers and hiring cheaper replacements. Unfortunately, it's a lesson that frequently needs to be relearned...there is a real value to paying for workers with experience who know what they are doing.
That being said, I'd be all for unions if I hadn't seen them protecting some really worthless employees. I love the idea of unions in theory. In practice, it's just extra politics that you have to navigate in order to get ahead and extra protection for the incompetent.
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"Think for yourselves and let others enjoy the privilege to do so too." |
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supergirl
join:2007-03-20
Pensacola, FL
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| reply to TKJunkMail
Yeah, VZ union was like 80,000+ members now only 65,000.
My problem is NOT with the union employee that works at all. I have utter and complete disgust for the "union" itself. They, the CWA I know for sure, makes more than the employees do that are union members. A state rep who answers the phone makes $90,000 a year. Ever see a state rep or your union? I doubt it. They send your union reps to negotiate with the big "boss" in the room (he makes $200k or more for speeches and doing nothing).
Your two unions should have run ads in NYC and elsewhere giving people a full explanation of the things facing you and will eventually face them. Instead, they put out ads like "your call cannot be completed as dialed" so non-union people just found their "strike" a power play. Add in the lack of fixing things or installing things right and the public is like, "Hell, fire 'em!"
Unions have gone downhill because a lot of people don't trust them. They can negotiate a sucky contract then make you vote. The vote is secret at the local so no oversight. It barely passes. Of course, companies will give one type of craft a good deal and screw the other one--playing the union members against each other. Companies will also give Union Reps plum jobs to keep them happy while everyone else is getting screwed.
Unions also spend a lot of your money in politics backing the worst candidates possible. They backed Clinton and Clinton hit them with NAFTA. I'd say half the companies in the USA HATE NAFTA. Unions should really hate NAFTA.
VZ knows they need the techs so will give techs a good deal while screwing the office. I've read union contracts, before and after, and found that was the deal. Your office staff has tons of controls while techs have almost none in comparison. So, the office staff gets screwed by not meeting all those controls. In other words, the union is selling you out for the side that can get the contract passed. Screw the rest of them.
Your union is public information at unionfacts.org.
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Saving the world keeps me busy. However, I find Earth very primitive from my home planet of Krypton.
-Supergirl |
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plat2on1
join:2002-08-21
Hopewell Junction, NY
clubs:
| reply to Dogfather
said by Dogfather :Verizon doesn't compete in a global economy and doesn't have to compete with anyone but other domestic suppliers. And they would only suffer pay cuts in the open market because of gov't failure to enforce employment law. Gov't always kisses the ass of big business and loves illegal labor. Outsourced labor (like tech support) should also face 1000% tariffs. actually verizon does compete on a global market, for capital.
tariffs lol..yeah protectionism really works..  |
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dennismurphy
Put me on hold? I'll put YOU on hold
Premium
join:2002-11-19
Parsippany, NJ
·Optimum Online
| reply to cwire
said by cwire :are those wireless employees climbing poles in snow storms? do they crawl underneath some of the nastiest houses that can be imagined to install jacks? no, the bulk of the wireless employees are desk jockeys. should they be paid the same as the guys who risk life and limb everyday to keep the network up? do you know who gets the call in the middle of the night when the t-lines are down that feed your precious cell towers? that would be me. i get up at 2am and drive to towns i've never been to, to repair the circuits that without, the towers would be useless. screw you, i will not settle for less because we are losing landline customers. there is a lot more to the union employees jobs than pots. we are the heart any of the baby bells. Amazing how this happens every 4 years ... you folks have absolutely NO CLUE about the wireless industry and how it works.
Guess what?
You're damned right Wireless has folks climbing towers. You're damned right they deal with customers day in and day out. You're damned right they get called in the middle of the night to keep things running.
You're not the only ones out there working your tails off. If landline is the 'heart' of the baby bells, then wireless is the brains of the operation. |
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cdru
Go Colts
Premium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
| reply to neotorian
said by neotorian :Because if we don't stand our ground, the company will walk all over us. What they were bringing to the table wasn't just as simple as making us pay a percentage of our health benefits; they wanted to take our retirement, extend and reduce any future raises, and basically drastically reduce what we got in the previous contract. Don't take any of this personally, but this is what really irks me about unions. Not just your union, or "blue color" unions or sports unions. Just unions in general.
A union have a contract. The contract expires, is renegotiated...whatever the circumstances, but ultimately the old contact is no longer in effect. During the renegotiations it's just presumed that everything must get better otherwise the union workers get screwed.
We live in a more or less free market society. Workers should get paid what the market wants to pay them, and conversely, the market should pays what the people are worth. If either side is not happy with the arrangement then don't accept the contact...but then you have to live with the consequences. As a worker, then that may mean you are going to go without any pay and/or job. For the company, that may mean that your best workers are going to go elsewhere and your quality of worker will suffer.
That's not a negotiation, it's a giant company trying to cut costs at the place where it should be giving back a little more because it's us that keep this company going. Any worker at a company can say that they are the ones that keep the company going. And to some degree that is true.
But answer me this, do you have any co-workers that only do average, or below average work? Any medium or large company has a few people that fit into that category. Do they keep the company going? They may do some, but they aren't the ones that are really moving the company. If they aren't really moving the company forward, why are they still around? That's right...the union.
I work in a very small web development company. Total current workforce: 5. We were 6, but we recently let someone go. He fit in the average or slightly below average category. Yes he helped out some, but he wasn't putting in 40 hours of work for a 40 hour paycheck that others put in. He wasn't slacking off nor did he take excessive breaks. His effort just wasn't enough and we cut him. In a union environment, I don't think it would have been possible to just cut him...we'd have to go through all sorts of bureaucratic red tape, making our eventual losses even more.
I won't argue that unions once served a purpose. In the late 19th century unions made a definite impact on ending child labor, improving safety, increasing pay, etc. Fast forward though to the 21st century. Child labor laws really aren't an issue any more. While there are dangers in the workplace, I don't think there are too many major companies that are exploiting their workers with unsafe work conditions that a union can help fight. So it's really just down to compensation...and non-union workers don't seem to have problems, in general, being compensated.
It probably an overly broad generalization, but to me it would seem that the ones that have the most to benefit from unions sticking around are the the under- or average-achievers. The above average worker is the type that companies want to have around and typically do something to keep them around. |
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st7860
join:2004-05-13
San Francisco, CA
| reply to pnh102
»www.urbandictionary.com/define.p···rm=union
an association that uses thuggery, hooliganism, bribery and blackmail to get the wage level raised above its true value for lazy workers |
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SteveCon
IBEW 2222 Boston, MA
Premium
join:2004-09-02
Burlington, MA | reply to cwire
Dead on, Brother! |
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sparky57
join:2003-05-18
New Bedford, MA | reply to cwire
As a Verizon CO tech in New England,I couldn't have said it better. We are the Network! |
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Dogfather
Premium
join:2007-12-26
Laguna Hills, CA
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| reply to pfak
Depends on what you consider a benefit. Your unemployment rate is fairly stable while ours has risen sharply. Also the IMF predicts Canada's economic growth to exceed that of the US for 2008. But our economies are tied together and as the US economy continues to collapse, we'll drag you down with us and the only hope for Canada are policies that will stimulate investment and jobs. |
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Rossco17
@comcast.net | reply to pnh102
Never been in union huh? |
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Hellrazor
join:2002-02-02
Abyss
| reply to S_engineer
said by S_engineer :said by mr man :Be happy for what you have. Cut your spending and invest..even a pension is not enough 10 to 20 years from now.. yeah thats it...invest. Buy shares in the same companies that are cutting US jobs by outsourcing and gutting the middle class by accepting non-union unskilled labor. Hope your grandchildren are happy working for Walmart! "Weekends...brought to you by unions everywhere!" You could buy stock in Verizon. If you guys think you are so good, the stock can only go up.
"Non-union unskilled labor" Now that is an amusing quote. So a union tech is automaticly better than a non-union tech? You clowns are so full of shit it isn't funny. I worked on both sides of the union fence. All a union does is protect screwoffs, screw everyone but the majority present for voting and brainwash people who can't think for themselves.
In case you haven't noticed the big union shops like the UAW are falling apart. The unions have priced themselves right out of business in the US. It isn't the big corp pushing companies overseas, it is the overpaid union workers who are bancrupting them. Notice the nice overpaid union autoworkers who halfed new hires wages? Now tell me who is selling out? |
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