MrSpock29
join:2008-02-09
Hammonton, NJ
| reply to jwersan
Re: Cost of Worker Replacement Must Be Decreasing
said by jwersan  :said by Dogfather :All NAFTA did was send manufacturing jobs out of the country along with the jobs of their suppliers. The ever increasing trade deficit despite the falling dollar PROVES free trade to be a total failure. And it's free trade policies that have our economy in the toilet. US based business will NEVER be able to compete with slave wages paid overseas. And they'll certainly not compete with nations with no labor standards, no environmental standards and often gov't subsidies. Free trade isn't fair trade. Someone who UNDERSTANDS reality... When NAFTA was first proposed, those involved wanted to change the "F" in it from "free" to "fair", and all the companies screamed bloody blue murder! The auto industry is in the mess it is in because of MANAGEMENT decisions, and has little to do with anything the unions have negotiated for. One of the first things the auto industry did after NAFTA was signed, was to close plants in the US and open them in Mexico, all the while telling the unions they had no money to modernise the plants in the US, yet they could build BRAND NEW plants in Mexico.  Keep in mind capital flows where it can get the best return on investment. Maybe we should be looking there, since we have the second highest corporate tax rate in the world, just barely behind Japan. No one wants to see jobs leave this country, but job markets always change, that is part of growth and evolution. Again, why is no one complaining about protecting blacksmith's anymore, since their jobs pretty much died off? In 100 years, the economy will be different still, and the types of jobs will also be different. The new jobs of today might be on their way out then. |
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MrSpock29
join:2008-02-09
Hammonton, NJ
1 edit | reply to jwersan
said by jwersan :said by MrSpock29 :[Look at the unemployment rate. About 7% when enacted, and bottomed at 3.9% before the late 2000 recession. You're being myopic if you are ONLY looking at the percentages of unemployment. Real wages are what you should be looking at and that has been declining for OVER 30 years. When someone loses a 40K job and takes a 30K job, the employment percentages may not change, but that person's real income has decreased... BTW, other reasons for declines in unemployment are due to people who give up looking, not by them finding a job. Jobs at Wal-Mart have increased over the past few years, has that had a positive impact on wages? I doubt it.  If they've been declining for over 30 years, then why blame NAFTA which has been around for 10? Can't have it both ways.
I am well aware of the issues with data, believe me (re: Unemployment decreasing). However, these issues have always existed, if they just started TODAY, then it would be different.
The computer field makes a lot of money now, a field that didn't exist much at all 30 years ago.
Job re-training is something that should be emphasized, as that would be helpful too. |
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Jigsaw
Stardust We Are
Premium
join:2000-10-21
Cleveland, OH
 ·Cox HSI
| reply to Discolarry
IMHO then i think its time to put some hard core Tariffs on these company's.I work for the auto Industry and its in shambles Gas has alot to do with it but also People no longer have the good jobs to buy those 30k(or even 15k) Cars so they sit at the dealers and the ball starts rolling down the hill. I for one would Welcome another Cold War at least most of the Jobs stayed in the United States and there was a middle class now its Rich or Poor.
--
"It's called the American dream because you have to be asleep to believe it."-George Carlin
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Dogfather
Premium
join:2007-12-26
Laguna Hills, CA | reply to MrSpock29
We're not talking obsolete jobs like blacksmithing. Where talking good jobs like coding, manufacturing and engineering that are being outsourced because the gov't is rewarding the outsourcing. |
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FiberTechV
join:2005-11-30
Elizabeth, PA
 ·Verizon Online DSL
1 edit | reply to hottboiinnc
TO hottboiinnc:
As a service tech, I more than earn my $30 an hour. I am exposed to more hazards on a daily basis than any other profession that I can think of. The hazardous things that I am exposed to on a daily basis in people's disgusting homes are well worth the company picking up my healthcare cost alone. The 3 skill sets (Phone, TV, Computers/Internet) that I have mastered are well worth my $30 an hour. |
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FiberTechV
join:2005-11-30
Elizabeth, PA
·Verizon Online DSL
| reply to hottboiinnc
TO hottboiinnc:
As a service tech, I more than earn my $30 an hour. I am exposed to more hazards on a daily basis than any other profession that I can think of. The hazardous things that I am exposed to on a daily basis in people's disgusting homes are well worth the company picking up my healthcare cost alone. The 3 skill sets (Phone, TV, Computers/Internet) that I have mastered are well worth my $30 an hour. |
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Dogfather
Premium
join:2007-12-26
Laguna Hills, CA
·Cox HSI
 ·Verizon FIOS
 ·Cox VOIP
·ViaTalk
·RoadRunner Cable
·MegaPath
·Verizon west (ex G..
·Time Warner VOIP
| reply to MrSpock29
NAFTA accelerated the decline of US based manufacturing and when the plants left the trickle down effect decimated their suppliers.
I supply tooling to companies like Acument, Alcoa and Robert Bosch and see first hand what happens when a US factory closes and reopens in China or Malaysia. They buy tooling from there instead of here. And I certainly can't compete with slave wages being paid there or against their total lack of labor and environmental standards. Hell, the freight costs alone are a deal killer, no matter how cheap the dollar gets.
When jobs are outsources, EVERYONE loses except the shareholders. Customers don't even benefit as the quality of goods goes in the shitter...lead in toys, poison dog food and toothpaste... |
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MrSpock29
join:2008-02-09
Hammonton, NJ
| reply to Dogfather
said by Dogfather :We're not talking obsolete jobs like blacksmithing. Where talking good jobs like coding, manufacturing and engineering that are being outsourced because the gov't is rewarding the outsourcing. My point is, that when those jobs started on a major decline long ago, they weren't obsolete back then either. Nor am I saying manufacturing jobs are or should be obsolete. I am talking about CHANGE. The marketplace changed, and other areas saw job creation, where those saw job destruction. "Gales of Creative Destruction".
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Dogfather
Premium
join:2007-12-26
Laguna Hills, CA | reply to FiberTechV
Forget it. The corporate ass kissers don't care what the long terms effects of outsourcing or dumbing down wages have on the economy so long as there is short term profit to be had. |
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MrSpock29
join:2008-02-09
Hammonton, NJ
| reply to Dogfather
said by Dogfather :lead in toys, poison dog food and toothpaste... I will agree with you here, we should never accept goods from anywhere that can do us harm, there must be standards that go with it. |
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Dogfather
Premium
join:2007-12-26
Laguna Hills, CA
·Cox HSI
·Verizon FIOS
·Cox VOIP
·ViaTalk
·RoadRunner Cable
·MegaPath
·Verizon west (ex G..
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| reply to MrSpock29
My point is gov't policy is accelerating this change to the HUGE detriment of our population and economy.
Instead of insisting on FAIR trade, our gov't ignores the horribly unlevel playing field of the "world economy".
And those touting for "free trade" are those who have jobs that aren't outsourcable (eg politicians). |
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Dogfather
Premium
join:2007-12-26
Laguna Hills, CA
·Cox HSI
·Verizon FIOS
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·MegaPath
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·Time Warner VOIP
| reply to MrSpock29
said by MrSpock29 :said by Dogfather :lead in toys, poison dog food and toothpaste... I will agree with you here, we should never accept goods from anywhere that can do us harm, there must be standards that go with it. I'm not expecting nor want 100% trade barriers. What I want is FAIR trade, not FREE trade. We should be tariffing the equivalent of the benefit these corporations get in countries without the same regulations we have. |
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brooklynman4
join:2004-09-07
Brooklyn, NY | reply to Jigsaw
So why did verizon buy mci for? |
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MrSpock29
join:2008-02-09
Hammonton, NJ
| reply to Dogfather
said by Dogfather :said by MrSpock29 :said by Dogfather :lead in toys, poison dog food and toothpaste... I will agree with you here, we should never accept goods from anywhere that can do us harm, there must be standards that go with it. I'm not expecting nor want 100% trade barriers. What I want is FAIR trade, not FREE trade. We should be tariffing the equivalent of the benefit these corporations get in countries without the same regulations we have. We're not as far apart as you think, but I will say we need to be careful of tariffs too. The Great Depression had 2 major issues associated with it, high tariffs, and a max tax rate of 90%. |
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lhlLshLSBD
@verizon.net
| reply to Jigsaw
6.55 MINWAGE....Labor Law is really helping us....i bet you do not make 6.55...if you do make 100k or 1mil...im happy for you...be happy for us that we make what we make..and if you do make 6.55 my union brothers and sisters speak for you anytime we have a rally or stike....i would not cross a picket line that you walked on...i would stop and hold a sign for you and try to help you get a living wage... |
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Dogfather
Premium
join:2007-12-26
Laguna Hills, CA
·Cox HSI
·Verizon FIOS
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·ViaTalk
·RoadRunner Cable
·MegaPath
·Verizon west (ex G..
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| reply to MrSpock29
The Great Depression had more to do with war reparations and the European economy that US tax rates.
I do think there should be NO corporate income tax in the United States. Consumers just end up paying it and/or business just leaves to avoid it. The amount of economic growth and jobs such a policy would create would be mind boggling. Business all over the world would race here instead of fleeing here. At the same time we should have trade controls in place to insure a level playing field for US based businesses. |
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guppy_fish
Premium
join:2003-12-09
Lakeland, FL
·Verizon FIOS
| reply to neotorian
All those "profits" are being generated by non-union employees and contractors, all the skill and craft people are working in mostly Landline and a very small part of FIOS backend, which currently LOSES a couple a billion a quarter
By the unions own logic, the profits should go to the workers that earned the money, OK, so take the profit and give it back to VZ wireless workers as a bonus, and then let the unions take a pay cut to cover the losses the business they work in is losing every quarter
What , don't like your own logic, now you understand how the average works sees your whining about more pay and benefits while the company is losing money in your divisions covered by union contracts |
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MrSpock29
join:2008-02-09
Hammonton, NJ
| reply to Dogfather
said by Dogfather :The Great Depression had more to do with war reparations and the European economy that US tax rates. I do think there should be NO corporate income tax in the United States. Consumers just end up paying it and/or business just leaves to avoid it. The amount of economic growth and jobs such a policy would create would be mind boggling. Business all over the world would race here instead of fleeing here. At the same time we should have trade controls in place to insure a level playing field for US based businesses. High taxes are always a negative for the economy. The more you tax something, the less of it you get back. Kennedy cut taxes when he was president, as did Reagan, and both instances saw an economic boom. Capital will flow to where it can get the best ROI.
War reparations played a role, but one cannot discount the effects of the Smoot-Hawley Tarrif act, the excessive tightness by the fed, and taxes. |
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hottboiinnc
ME
join:2003-10-15
Cleveland, OH
·Time Warner Cable
·buckeye cable
1 edit | reply to FiberTechV
if you don't like what you have to work in then leave the companies. And who said i wasnt exposed to the same things as you? have you ever worked in a farm house for 4hours without AC or anything else in the middle of summer at 90+ degrees with cat and dog piss all over the house hooking up someone's washer, and dryer? NO! I do! I even have to touch the old ones and take them out and smell them for the rest of the day
You didnt see me bitching to my boss that i wanted the company to pay for 90% of my healthcare because they "owed" it to me! If i would have told them that i would have been told the same thing i told you and every other fuck union employee who thinks their "owed" something- GET A NEW FUCKIN JOB!
THIS WORLD DOES NOT OWE YOU ANYTHING!
and one more thing; VZ should have kicked all your asses to the curb when you started to picket before the deadline. That would have all taught you a lesson.
LOCK OUT ALL OF YOU DAMN UNION EMPLOYEES AND TEACH YOU A LESSON. |
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