neotorian
join:2008-08-03
Sarasota, FL
| reply to pnh102
Re: Cost of Worker Replacement Must Be Decreasing
Because if we don't stand our ground, the company will walk all over us. What they were bringing to the table wasn't just as simple as making us pay a percentage of our health benefits; they wanted to take our retirement, extend and reduce any future raises, and basically drastically reduce what we got in the previous contract. That's not a negotiation, it's a giant company trying to cut costs at the place where it should be giving back a little more because it's us that keep this company going.
And fyi, it's a little more expensive to replace the bulk of us than you might think. Craft is a trade that can't be learned over night; yes you can train a guy to do it in 1-2 weeks, but if you saw our systems and how screwed up things can get, it would be more trouble than it's worth to send out a bunch of guys that have only seen it in a book because they would quickly learn that what they saw in training is COMPLETELY different than how it is in the real world, which is exactly why our tech support sucks so bad sometimes.
I hope we don't have to strike though, I really do. Even if the company would be doing it for the wrong reasons. |
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GOLFnSUN
Enjoy the sun
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Avalon, NJ
 ·Sprint Mobile Broa..
 ·Comcast
| The union will sell out future workers and past retirees in the new contract.
The deal will ultimately give current workers a raise and some protection from layoffs. New hires will get reduced pay and benefits and the retirees will be lucky to keep benefits at the same levels they have now, even though their costs(especially health care) continue to rise.
The company will keep hiring contractors as they reduce the size of the union workforce thru retirement and attrition(people who quit or are fired for cause).
Given the world economy, union power will continue to decline.
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My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page
Ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk? |
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Dogfather
Premium
join:2007-12-26
Laguna Hills, CA
1 edit | Verizon isn't competing in a "World Economy". What foreign competition does Verizon have?
Meanwhile as our gov't continues to sell us out to China and Mexico, US standard of living will decline. |
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GOLFnSUN
Enjoy the sun
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Avalon, NJ
·Sprint Mobile Broa..
·Comcast
| said by Dogfather  :Verizon isn't competing in a "World Economy". What foreign competition does Verizon have? The reality of a world economy and lower 3rd world pay scales reduces the costs of labor around the world - even for companies and their workers who don't do business outside the country. As worker pay scales sink in international competitive industries it reduces pay scales in all industries.
All Verizon has to do is say to the union: "we will replace all you union workers and where will you get equivalent pay in other industries." The union leadership knows their workers would take drastic pay cuts if they hit the street. And that is how even a company like Verizon can reduce wages - thru the threat of making their workers compete against foreign workers if they eliminate their jobs at Verizon and force them to find jobs in other industries(where only 15% of the workforce is unionized). And don't forget the threat of using contractors/outsourcing who use cheaper immigrant(legal & otherwise) labor flooding in to the U.S.
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My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page
Ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk? |
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Dogfather
Premium
join:2007-12-26
Laguna Hills, CA
·Cox HSI
 ·Verizon FIOS
 ·Cox VOIP
·ViaTalk
·RoadRunner Cable
 ·MegaPath
·Verizon west (ex G..
·Time Warner VOIP
4 edits | Verizon doesn't compete in a global economy and doesn't have to compete with anyone but other domestic suppliers. And they would only suffer pay cuts in the open market because of gov't failure to enforce employment law. Gov't always kisses the ass of big business and loves illegal labor.
Outsourced labor (like tech support) should also face 1000% tariffs. |
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mr man
join:2008-08-02
Denver, CO
| reply to neotorian
Be lucky for what you got. Craft folks make over $22 an hour and higher if you are a tech, plus overtime. Asking for union employees to pay part of your medical bennies is not asking much for the type of work/labor craft folks do.
Many other telcos and unionized employers cut out a lot of those bennies and Verizon will be setting a bad precedence if they give in to the union.
Verizon Wireless is non union and they are carrying the weight of the telco. Line loss means less revenue. Be happy you have a job, but be a little more realistic. Wireless employees are paid less an hour and have to pay for part of their bennies, yet they are securely employed. Outsourcing is a way for the company to count their land line lossess. And we know that is happening now. A strike will not stop that.
Expensive to replace? I think not. There are plenty of skilled contractors out there that can splice, test, answer phones, enter orders and install services that would love to have a stable job and pay into a decent health plan. What some may know in the field on a specific issue can be learned by anyone that puts their mind into it.
Unions act like blankets, all or nothing. This means they protect the very hard workers the same way they protect slackers. I used to be in a Verizon telco area and i can tell you that I have seen some techs out there just leeching, practicing to take on their new Walmart jobs while others should be promoted to mid or high management for their dedication to their hard earned money.
Sure, Mr Ivan and his cronies make an insane amount of money and I bet verizon is like a slew of other companies with slews of CEO's of this and that, making money and readying with their golden parachutes before they are made scapegoats; it is coporate greed at it's best. But, no one will intercede with that. So if the company revenues are down, what make you think that biting the hand that feeds you will cry uncle because of a strike vote? They can turn around and employ from the job pool, pay them less in return for a stable job as easy as 123. Read the news, it has happened before.
Be happy for what you have. Cut your spending and invest..even a pension is not enough 10 to 20 years from now.. |
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Shamayim
I already have a Messiah.
Premium
join:2002-09-23
| reply to Dogfather
said by Dogfather :Meanwhile as our gov't continues to sell us out to China and Mexico, US standard of living will decline. Don't look now but China already owns us. The "For Sale" sign has already been taken down.
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Who is Jesus? and Why it matters (to YOU).
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guppy_fish
Premium
join:2003-12-09
Lakeland, FL
·Verizon FIOS
| reply to neotorian
All those "profits" are being generated by non-union employees and contractors, all the skill and craft people are working in mostly Landline and a very small part of FIOS backend, which currently LOSES a couple a billion a quarter
By the unions own logic, the profits should go to the workers that earned the money, OK, so take the profit and give it back to VZ wireless workers as a bonus, and then let the unions take a pay cut to cover the losses the business they work in is losing every quarter
What , don't like your own logic, now you understand how the average works sees your whining about more pay and benefits while the company is losing money in your divisions covered by union contracts |
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just a worker
@comcast.net | reply to GOLFnSUN
Our union has yet to take pay cuts, will not sell out our retirees, or anything else you are fantasising about |
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cwire
join:2007-06-07
Bedford, KY
·AT&T Southeast
1 edit | reply to mr man
Re: Cost of Worker Replacement Must Be Decreasing
are those wireless employees climbing poles in snow storms? do they crawl underneath some of the nastiest houses that can be imagined to install jacks? no, the bulk of the wireless employees are desk jockeys. should they be paid the same as the guys who risk life and limb everyday to keep the network up? do you know who gets the call in the middle of the night when the t-lines are down that feed your precious cell towers? that would be me. i get up at 2am and drive to towns i've never been to, to repair the circuits that without, the towers would be useless. screw you, i will not settle for less because we are losing landline customers. there is a lot more to the union employees jobs than pots. we are the heart any of the baby bells. |
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S_engineer
join:2007-05-16
Chicago, IL
·Comcast
| reply to mr man
said by mr man :Be happy for what you have. Cut your spending and invest..even a pension is not enough 10 to 20 years from now.. yeah thats it...invest. Buy shares in the same companies that are cutting US jobs by outsourcing and gutting the middle class by accepting non-union unskilled labor. Hope your grandchildren are happy working for Walmart!
"Weekends...brought to you by unions everywhere!" |
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Hellrazor
join:2002-02-02
Abyss
| said by S_engineer :said by mr man :Be happy for what you have. Cut your spending and invest..even a pension is not enough 10 to 20 years from now.. yeah thats it...invest. Buy shares in the same companies that are cutting US jobs by outsourcing and gutting the middle class by accepting non-union unskilled labor. Hope your grandchildren are happy working for Walmart! "Weekends...brought to you by unions everywhere!" You could buy stock in Verizon. If you guys think you are so good, the stock can only go up.
"Non-union unskilled labor" Now that is an amusing quote. So a union tech is automaticly better than a non-union tech? You clowns are so full of shit it isn't funny. I worked on both sides of the union fence. All a union does is protect screwoffs, screw everyone but the majority present for voting and brainwash people who can't think for themselves.
In case you haven't noticed the big union shops like the UAW are falling apart. The unions have priced themselves right out of business in the US. It isn't the big corp pushing companies overseas, it is the overpaid union workers who are bancrupting them. Notice the nice overpaid union autoworkers who halfed new hires wages? Now tell me who is selling out? |
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sparky57
join:2003-05-18
New Bedford, MA | reply to cwire
As a Verizon CO tech in New England,I couldn't have said it better. We are the Network! |
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SteveCon
IBEW 2222 Boston, MA
Premium
join:2004-09-02
Burlington, MA | reply to cwire
Dead on, Brother! |
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cdru
Go Colts
Premium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
| reply to neotorian
said by neotorian :Because if we don't stand our ground, the company will walk all over us. What they were bringing to the table wasn't just as simple as making us pay a percentage of our health benefits; they wanted to take our retirement, extend and reduce any future raises, and basically drastically reduce what we got in the previous contract. Don't take any of this personally, but this is what really irks me about unions. Not just your union, or "blue color" unions or sports unions. Just unions in general.
A union have a contract. The contract expires, is renegotiated...whatever the circumstances, but ultimately the old contact is no longer in effect. During the renegotiations it's just presumed that everything must get better otherwise the union workers get screwed.
We live in a more or less free market society. Workers should get paid what the market wants to pay them, and conversely, the market should pays what the people are worth. If either side is not happy with the arrangement then don't accept the contact...but then you have to live with the consequences. As a worker, then that may mean you are going to go without any pay and/or job. For the company, that may mean that your best workers are going to go elsewhere and your quality of worker will suffer.
That's not a negotiation, it's a giant company trying to cut costs at the place where it should be giving back a little more because it's us that keep this company going. Any worker at a company can say that they are the ones that keep the company going. And to some degree that is true.
But answer me this, do you have any co-workers that only do average, or below average work? Any medium or large company has a few people that fit into that category. Do they keep the company going? They may do some, but they aren't the ones that are really moving the company. If they aren't really moving the company forward, why are they still around? That's right...the union.
I work in a very small web development company. Total current workforce: 5. We were 6, but we recently let someone go. He fit in the average or slightly below average category. Yes he helped out some, but he wasn't putting in 40 hours of work for a 40 hour paycheck that others put in. He wasn't slacking off nor did he take excessive breaks. His effort just wasn't enough and we cut him. In a union environment, I don't think it would have been possible to just cut him...we'd have to go through all sorts of bureaucratic red tape, making our eventual losses even more.
I won't argue that unions once served a purpose. In the late 19th century unions made a definite impact on ending child labor, improving safety, increasing pay, etc. Fast forward though to the 21st century. Child labor laws really aren't an issue any more. While there are dangers in the workplace, I don't think there are too many major companies that are exploiting their workers with unsafe work conditions that a union can help fight. So it's really just down to compensation...and non-union workers don't seem to have problems, in general, being compensated.
It probably an overly broad generalization, but to me it would seem that the ones that have the most to benefit from unions sticking around are the the under- or average-achievers. The above average worker is the type that companies want to have around and typically do something to keep them around. |
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dennismurphy
Put me on hold? I'll put YOU on hold
Premium
join:2002-11-19
Parsippany, NJ
·Optimum Online
| reply to cwire
said by cwire :are those wireless employees climbing poles in snow storms? do they crawl underneath some of the nastiest houses that can be imagined to install jacks? no, the bulk of the wireless employees are desk jockeys. should they be paid the same as the guys who risk life and limb everyday to keep the network up? do you know who gets the call in the middle of the night when the t-lines are down that feed your precious cell towers? that would be me. i get up at 2am and drive to towns i've never been to, to repair the circuits that without, the towers would be useless. screw you, i will not settle for less because we are losing landline customers. there is a lot more to the union employees jobs than pots. we are the heart any of the baby bells. Amazing how this happens every 4 years ... you folks have absolutely NO CLUE about the wireless industry and how it works.
Guess what?
You're damned right Wireless has folks climbing towers. You're damned right they deal with customers day in and day out. You're damned right they get called in the middle of the night to keep things running.
You're not the only ones out there working your tails off. If landline is the 'heart' of the baby bells, then wireless is the brains of the operation. |
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plat2on1
join:2002-08-21
Hopewell Junction, NY
clubs:
| reply to Dogfather
said by Dogfather :Verizon doesn't compete in a global economy and doesn't have to compete with anyone but other domestic suppliers. And they would only suffer pay cuts in the open market because of gov't failure to enforce employment law. Gov't always kisses the ass of big business and loves illegal labor. Outsourced labor (like tech support) should also face 1000% tariffs. actually verizon does compete on a global market, for capital.
tariffs lol..yeah protectionism really works..  |
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supergirl
join:2007-03-20
Pensacola, FL
·Cox VOIP
·Skype
·Cox HSI
·AT&T Southeast
·magicjack.com
| reply to GOLFnSUN
Yeah, VZ union was like 80,000+ members now only 65,000.
My problem is NOT with the union employee that works at all. I have utter and complete disgust for the "union" itself. They, the CWA I know for sure, makes more than the employees do that are union members. A state rep who answers the phone makes $90,000 a year. Ever see a state rep or your union? I doubt it. They send your union reps to negotiate with the big "boss" in the room (he makes $200k or more for speeches and doing nothing).
Your two unions should have run ads in NYC and elsewhere giving people a full explanation of the things facing you and will eventually face them. Instead, they put out ads like "your call cannot be completed as dialed" so non-union people just found their "strike" a power play. Add in the lack of fixing things or installing things right and the public is like, "Hell, fire 'em!"
Unions have gone downhill because a lot of people don't trust them. They can negotiate a sucky contract then make you vote. The vote is secret at the local so no oversight. It barely passes. Of course, companies will give one type of craft a good deal and screw the other one--playing the union members against each other. Companies will also give Union Reps plum jobs to keep them happy while everyone else is getting screwed.
Unions also spend a lot of your money in politics backing the worst candidates possible. They backed Clinton and Clinton hit them with NAFTA. I'd say half the companies in the USA HATE NAFTA. Unions should really hate NAFTA.
VZ knows they need the techs so will give techs a good deal while screwing the office. I've read union contracts, before and after, and found that was the deal. Your office staff has tons of controls while techs have almost none in comparison. So, the office staff gets screwed by not meeting all those controls. In other words, the union is selling you out for the side that can get the contract passed. Screw the rest of them.
Your union is public information at unionfacts.org.
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Saving the world keeps me busy. However, I find Earth very primitive from my home planet of Krypton.
-Supergirl |
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SilentMan
join:2002-07-15
New York, NY
| reply to SteveCon
said by SteveCon :Dead on, Brother! Amazing to see people here defending a multibillion dollar company they have no stake in against the workers who keep the company going and making millions for its execs and top investors. You people defending corporations are just little joes with no class conscience who are always potential victims of these corporate vultures you like to defend, keep that in mind.
Workers Unite! |
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