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drlouis
join:2003-07-21
 ·Windstream
| Nikon D60 or Canon EOS 450D? I've been looking at getting my first DSLR. I had almost decided on a Nikon D40X, but see the D60 now, and it looks like a nice replacement. While I was reading up on it, I saw the Canon EOS 450D is out, and looks like a good alternative (I tend to like the images on dpreview.com that come from the Canons a little better the ones from the Nikons - but I'm a newb, so what do I know?).
Now I cant decide. I know - KNOW, my skill will be the limiting factor for quite a while, but I'd much rather have equipment that I can grow into rather than upgrading when I outgrow my equipment. I've read the (excellent) reviews of both cameras at dpreview.com, and am still unsure.
The main intended use will be portraits (family pictures of the wife and kids) mostly. I'd also really like to learn other aspects of photography, but I get the feeling they're both very capable cameras for "learning" on.
So the question is: which one would YOU prefer for portraits (and learning photography in general) and why? Also, lenses. is there an advantage in this department for one or the other brand?
Thanks,
Louis | |
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X Man
Sober
Premium
join:2005-09-05
USA
| Re: Nikon D60 or Canon EOS 450D? The Nikon D60 can only AutoFocus lenses that have built-in motors.Nearly all new AF lenses for Nikon have motors. Still, that might very well limit the lower end or used lens options for that body. And manually focusing, auto focus lenses, sucks.
I'm cheap, so such a limitation would be a deal breaker for me, but maybe not for you.
The Canon? Well, nobody ever got fired for buying Canon. 
I don't know, but I believe the Canon wins in every category except price. Lens Compatibility, Better high ISO performance, Better resale value, Live View! Digic III CMOS Sensor....
So, I'd say the Canon would be more satisfying and leave you with more head-room to grow into.
My 2¢
Regards,
Mike
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drlouis
join:2003-07-21
·Windstream
| Re: Nikon D60 or Canon EOS 450D? said by X Man  :The Nikon D60 can only AutoFocus lenses that have built-in motors.Nearly all new AF lenses for Nikon have motors. Still, that might very well limit the lower end or used lens options for that body. And manually focusing, auto focus lenses, sucks. I'd noticed the difference in AF, but wasn't sure which way would be preferable. I'm also cheap (but I'd rather pay good money for good equipment than save money and get second rate gear.)
said by X Man :I don't know, but I believe the Canon wins in every category except price. Lens Compatibility, Better high ISO performance, Better resale value, Live View! Digic III CMOS Sensor.... So, I'd say the Canon would be more satisfying and leave you with more head-room to grow into. The Canon is lookin' pretty good right now I have to say.
Thank you for the input. definitely worth more than $0.02 to me | |
| jza80
join:2005-10-29
Sacramento, CA
| said by drlouis :So the question is: which one would YOU prefer for portraits (and learning photography in general) and why? If your considering Nikon, I would look at the D80. D40, D40x, and D60 all have limitations with AF (only AF with lenses that have motors). D80 does not have this limitation and its a step up from the D60.
As for why. Well I don't like the feel, button layout, and ergonomics of Canons.
Its a decision you'll have to make, but I suggest looking at and playing around with whichever ones your considering and go from there. | |
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gugarci
Premium
join:2004-02-25
Bergen Co | You can also look at D80 as they have come down in price. | |
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Edit This
Premium
join:2001-05-08 | Canon is better. | |
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kewlkeed
Grouch
Premium
join:2005-02-05
Knowlton, QC
| I would go with the Canon myself too. I think the big selling point for me with the Canon when I bought it was the fact that the lenses, be they 20years old etc, will not usually have any problems. I have to admit I have Canon 35mm stuff as well so that biased me a bit because I already had stock that was interchangeable.
I can't remember what model of Nikon it was that I tried, but I disliked some of the ways how it handled, but that was a couple months ago so I don't even remember what it was. I just remembered it feeling "weird/wrong" in the sense of trying to drive on the other side of the road or something. Just didn't "fit" well. But I guess that's expected from one vendor to another.
I think my selling point was compatibility with my current stock more than anything else. | |
| ddevilduck
Premium
join:2002-07-26
Minneapolis, MN
| I recently bought the D60 kit. As a first time dSLR owner price was my main deciding factor. That and I liked how the D60 felt when holding it than the Canon Xsi felt.
As far as lenses, I found myself using manual focus more than the auto focus just because I quickly learned that I wanted to control what was happening instead of letting the camera do it. With that I purchased 3 additional lenses that for really cheap that works really well but dont have AF.
As a noob to cameras one thing I am learning, you have to try the cameras out then pick the one you like. | |
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TigerNutz
Laissez les bons temps rouler
Premium
join:2000-12-23
Little Rock, AR
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1 edit | Re: Nikon D60 or Canon EOS 450D? said by ddevilduck :I recently bought the D60 kit. As a first time dSLR owner price was my main deciding factor. That and I liked how the D60 felt when holding it than the Canon Xsi felt. As far as lenses, I found myself using manual focus more than the auto focus just because I quickly learned that I wanted to control what was happening instead of letting the camera do it. With that I purchased 3 additional lenses that for really cheap that works really well but dont have AF. As a noob to cameras one thing I am learning, you have to try the cameras out then pick the one you like. Good for you!
Manual focus...wow, what a concept. 
Next thing ya know people will be using primes and zooming with their feet.
oh, wait..... is that what Ansel Adams used?
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X Man
Sober
Premium
join:2005-09-05
USA
| Re: Nikon D60 or Canon EOS 450D? said by TigerNutz :Manual focus...wow, what a concept. oh, wait..... is that what Ansel Adams used? Right, but again manually focusing an auto-focus lens blows. Another thing that sucks is a lot of modern manual focus lenses are really auto-focus lenses with the AF parts ripped out.
I use manual focus lenses 75-80 % of the time but they are old M42 mount pieces. Heavy Metal and smooth dampened focus.
Regards,
Mike
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| | | | ddevilduck
Premium
join:2002-07-26
Minneapolis, MN
| Re: Nikon D60 or Canon EOS 450D? as a novice, I am not really able to tell the difference between the focusing action between lenses.
Maybe later as a get more experience I can start being concerned with all the neat little things of white balance, smooth focus action. I am learning, but since its still a new hobby, price is for me a driving factor. | |
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X Man
Sober
Premium
join:2005-09-05
USA
| Re: Nikon D60 or Canon EOS 450D? Price was/is the driving factor for me too, make no mistake. I'm on a low-budget plan. I run a Pentax K100D and a mish mash of ancient MF screw-mount glass along with the kit 18-55mm lens.
I bought the Pentax purely based on price. The cheapest DSLR was going to win in my case. However that doesn't mean I think the IQ or ISO performance of my Pentax is as good as a CMOS sensor in a Canon. In fact, I'm certain it's not.
Regards,
Mike
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normat
Premium
join:2000-08-02
Boynton Beach, FL
clubs:
1 edit | said by ddevilduck :I recently bought the D60 kit. As a first time dSLR owner price was my main deciding factor. That and I liked how the D60 felt when holding it than the Canon Xsi felt. As far as lenses, I found myself using manual focus more than the auto focus just because I quickly learned that I wanted to control what was happening instead of letting the camera do it. Goodness, that has got to take some serious skill and good eyesight to manually focus a D60. | |
| | | ddevilduck
Premium
join:2002-07-26
Minneapolis, MN
| Re: Nikon D60 or Canon EOS 450D? said by normat :said by ddevilduck :I recently bought the D60 kit. As a first time dSLR owner price was my main deciding factor. That and I liked how the D60 felt when holding it than the Canon Xsi felt. As far as lenses, I found myself using manual focus more than the auto focus just because I quickly learned that I wanted to control what was happening instead of letting the camera do it. Goodness, that has got to take some serious skill and good eyesight to manually focus a D60. i wouldnt say i have a good eye or skill.
I thought it was kinda simple, you turn the ring thing toward the front of the lens till what you see in the viewer looks the way you think it should. I dont have a photographer's eye so what I think may be good is not good to someone else. | |
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normat
Premium
join:2000-08-02
Boynton Beach, FL
clubs: | Re: Nikon D60 or Canon EOS 450D? No, I just find it rather hard myself to manual focus with the smaller viewfinders. They just aren't built for that anymore.
Though I'll sometimes MF with a tripod and stationary subject. | |
| | | | | ddevilduck
Premium
join:2002-07-26
Minneapolis, MN | Re: Nikon D60 or Canon EOS 450D? i agree with you that the viewfinder is small. i have to smooosh my eye right in there to see what I want well. | |
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pog
Premium
join:2004-06-03
Kihei, HI
·Hawaiian Telcom
| Re: Nikon D60 or Canon EOS 450D? said by ddevilduck :i agree with you that the viewfinder is small. i have to smooosh my eye right in there to see what I want well. While it wasn't really my idea in the first place, I went ahead and made a chart of (calculated) actual viewfinder sizes here: »Comparing viewfinders
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Gemologist
Premium
join:2001-11-15
USA
clubs:
| Gotsta laugh at one thing... "Lens Compatibility".. Canon in no way leads that category, in fact just the opposite. They changed their mount, so the older lenses in fact do not actually work on them.
Lens compatibility and selection is owned by Pentax, considering they can use EVERY lens ever made for Pentax, even the M42 mount can be used with an adapter.
I would save a few more bucks and get the Nikon D80 over the two you have listed. But, between the two you have listed the D60 would be the better choice honestly. The Canon still has the typical poor white balance Canon is known for, the AF is not exactly the greatest either... unless you set it to the center AF point only the AF is very unpredictable not to mention slow as well, and you may want to hold it and play around with it before considering it as well... the size is very uncomfortable to use and awkward. Don't get me wrong, not a bad camera, but not as fgood as the competition, that is all.
»www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneo···ge34.asp
Two other options to seriously consider would be the Pentax K10D or Pentax K200D as either is a step up, or quite a few steps up in the case of the K10D, from the D60 and/or the 450D.
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X Man
Sober
Premium
join:2005-09-05
USA
| Re: Nikon D60 or Canon EOS 450D? said by Gemologist :Gotsta laugh at one thing... "Lens Compatibility".. Canon in no way leads that category, in fact just the opposite. They changed their mount, so the older lenses in fact do not actually work on them. Modern Lens Compatibility. The Nikon can't AF certain modern AF lenses. 
...between the two you have listed the D60 would be the better choice honestly. The Canon still has the typical poor white balance Canon is known for, the AF is not exactly the greatest either... unless you set it to the center AF point only the AF is very unpredictable not to mention slow as well, and you may want to hold it and play around with it before considering it as well... the size is very uncomfortable to use and awkward. Don't get me wrong, not a bad camera, but not as good as the competition, that is all. » www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneo···ge34.aspTwo other options to seriously consider would be the Pentax K10D or Pentax K200D as either is a step up, or quite a few steps up in the case of the K10D, from the D60 and/or the 450D.
A Pentax K10D and K200D are a step up from the Canon XSI? How in the world do you figure?
A canon lens with USM has anything but slow AF and using the screw motor all AF lenses focus slowly on all bodies.
You hate Canon, we get it. Now, how about some data to back up your claims of better performance of the Nikon D60 over a Canon XSI. Good luck finding that data too because to an impartial observer the Canon own the D60 and D80 in every metric.
Regards,
Mike
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Jodokast96
R.I.P Bassman442
Premium
join:2005-11-23
Erial, NJ
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: Nikon D60 or Canon EOS 450D? AF may not work, but at least you can use the lenses. Not so with the Canons. Totally different lens mount.
K10D and K200D better than an XSi? Always a subjective question, but at worst it's a step sideways. The IQ of the Pentax's are good. Is the XSi better? Maybe, but while IQ is important, the ergonomics are so vastly different that holding an XSi makes me not want to even take a picture to find out. To me, it's just awful. The D60 feels more like the XSi, and I do prefer it to the Canon. Just be prepared to go menu diving. The D60 often gets high ratings for IQ, plus it will do ISO 3200.
USM doesn't necesarily mean faster. There are a lot of factors that play into that. Certainly quieter though.
The Canon is good, but it doesn't own the D60, and certainly not the D80. The D80 is in a whole other class, and is really only lacking a newer sensor, same as the K10D.
In the end, I'd put it like this. If you are willing to fork out the cost of the Canon, ditch the D60 as the Nikon option and go with the D80. If ease of use is important, or a camera that isn't on the small side, look at a K10D or D80 over the XSi. They offer a beefier feel (fact) and better controls (opinion, but don't think anybody would disagree), with a possible sacrifice of some IQ (very much debatable).
Or just spend a tad more and get a K20D. | |
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SueS
Premium
join:2007-05-16
Macon, MO
1 edit | Re: Nikon D60 or Canon EOS 450D? This is not correct info. I only use EF lenses on my XT. I have no EF S lenses.
You cannot use EF S lenses on full frame cameras however. | |
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Jodokast96
R.I.P Bassman442
Premium
join:2005-11-23
Erial, NJ
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: Nikon D60 or Canon EOS 450D? said by SueS :This is not correct info. I only use EF lenses on my XT. I have no EF S lenses. He's right. If you only use EF lenses, you have nothing to worry about. But if you end up with an EF-S lens for the XSi, you won't be able to use it on any of their FF bodies. Of course it's probably a long shot that he'll every have one, but you never know. | |
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SueS
Premium
join:2007-05-16
Macon, MO | Re: Nikon D60 or Canon EOS 450D? He said, you CAN ONLY use EF S, and I corrected that statement only. | |
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Jodokast96
R.I.P Bassman442
Premium
join:2005-11-23
Erial, NJ
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: Nikon D60 or Canon EOS 450D? said by SueS :He said, you CAN ONLY use EF S "only on the crop bodies" 100% correct. He didn't say on crop bodies, you can only use EF-S. If he said:
"You can only use EF-S on the crop bodies",
you would be correct. Using "only" twice creates the confusion. Using it once but in different places gives you two different meanings. But once you place it in the second postion, there is only one meaning, though a bit confusing. | |
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SueS
Premium
join:2007-05-16
Macon, MO
| Re: Nikon D60 or Canon EOS 450D? said by Jodokast96 :said by SueS :He said, you CAN ONLY use EF S "only on the crop bodies" 100% correct. He didn't say on crop bodies, you can only use EF-S. If he said: "You can only use EF-S on the crop bodies", you would be correct. Using "only" twice creates the confusion. Using it once but in different places gives you two different meanings. But once you place it in the second postion, there is only one meaning, though a bit confusing. Just as long as the original poster understands the difference is all that is important. | |
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kewlkeed
Grouch
Premium
join:2005-02-05
Knowlton, QC
| I see why brand name debates are pretty useless here as everyone nitpicks and argues them (And the gramatics of it) until they are blue in the face, when it all comes down to a personal preference.
I think the better thing to do, is ignore just about everyone here, PICK UP the darn thing in your hands, DO some shots with it, TRY some others, and then CHOSE the one YOU like. Not the one I like, or the one anyone else likes. If you like it and it works for you, then congrads, you now have the best camera in the world.
Asking what is the best camera (or even comparing two), is like asking what is the best car. Depends what you do, how you use it, and in the end, which just feels better to you. They're all gonna get you from A to Z in some way or another, and that's where your feeling needs to lead you.
People need to learn, it's not the camera that matters but the guy behind it that makes all the difference. | |
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kewlkeed
Grouch
Premium
join:2005-02-05
Knowlton, QC
| Hehehe Well yes actually in a way ignoring myself as well. Like I said I'm biased to Canon, but that's me and only me (If ya wanna follow so be it). I don't even like the idea of listing pros and cons because what may be a pro to me may turn someone else off.
For instance I think it's a massive con that the strobes I bought have an external sensor that fires them... I hate the idea, but for someone with a small camera that just wants to get their feet wet, you may have just handed them something that would have otherwise been utterly useless to them without it.
To all their own I think. I've outshot 10K cameras with a crap 1.3MP junker. Comes down to being in the right place at the right time, pressing the button, saying a small prayer (LOL) and looking at what you got. It certainly comes down to the photographer and their preferences and not the camera itself.
Also comes down to technique and how "far you will go" for a shot. I've gone neck deep in a lake with my rebel, I've taken it on roller coasters, and I've hung over the edge of moving vehicles with it. And again outshot someone with a 1D-MK3 all because I took the extra step, and tried not to wet my pants doing it LMAO!  | |
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gugarci
Premium
join:2004-02-25
Bergen Co | Like it's been mentioned, it's a tool. Go to a store and see which tool feels more comfortable to work with. | |
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kewlkeed
Grouch
Premium
join:2005-02-05
Knowlton, QC
1 edit | Hehehe fun experience... When I say it comes down to the feel of it, this is how picky/bad I am...
I'm used to shooting Canon, so for me to use a 35mm or DSLR the controls are normally all in the same places and follow the same functions...
When I was originally using a Nikon to test with (I believe a D60 at the time too) I don't think I've ever swore so much in my life trying to find buttons and get them at the right time etc. Most of my shooting is done at high speed and doesn't get a second chance. So it burns my butt when I'm fumbling with controls (Not because they aren't there, or wrong, just that I don't know where they are in a heartbeat)
So yes it's all about the feel. I'm sure if I handed my cam to a Nikon fanatic they'd probably do the same lol | |
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Jodokast96
R.I.P Bassman442
Premium
join:2005-11-23
Erial, NJ
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: Nikon D60 or Canon EOS 450D? That's not picky at all. That's exactly why I suggested the D80 over it, and why I personally love the K10D. And it's exactly the reason I decided not to get an XTi when purchasing a DSLR. The XTi was the camera I was going to buy, no doubt about it. But I was given the advice to actually hold one before buying anything. So I did. Picked one up. Ok, feels fine. Then I picked up the Sony A100 next to it. Whoa! How much better did that feel. Now I just had to pick up the D80. Bigger whoa! That thing was awesome! Now I had to rethink everything. In the end, it was Pentax. I knew that no matter which camera I bought, I'd get a good quality picture, certainly one that was better than my skills. But it was the feel, and to a lesser extent certain features, that made my mind up for me. | |
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normat
Premium
join:2000-08-02
Boynton Beach, FL
clubs:
| Re: Nikon D60 or Canon EOS 450D? Sort of why I like the Canon n0D line - old or new. I know the controls and can set them practically with my eyes closed. I also like the feel of a Nikon D200 but am not quite as familiar with Nikon setups.
I haven't had the pleasure to try the Pentax line but the more manufactures making good equipment the better. | |
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drlouis
join:2003-07-21
·Windstream
| whoa! that's a lot of replies!
Well thanks everyone for the input, now I'm even more confused. What is a K10D? I can see clearly that I still have a lot of reading, and apparently playing to do.
I certainly didn't intend to start any in-fighting, I was just looking for some input on some of the things a newbie might not think of. Ie battery life, lenses, over-all quality/durability etc. I really do appreciate the help, and I have a lot to consider now. The biggest problem is gonna be there is a real dearth of shops that have camera's that retail for more than $200 around here. So getting them in my hands will be a challenge. | |
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normat
Premium
join:2000-08-02
Boynton Beach, FL
clubs:
| Not sure where you are but there is usually a shop or two in most places. The major stores (Best Buys and Circuits) tend to be a pain as their displays are often broken an nobody cares or really understands the products. That and they have those high tension security cables that make it feel more like fishing than photography.
The shops are helpful and but tend to specialize in one brand so you'll often get a biased opinion. Places like Ritz/Wolf tend to carry all the bodies but aren't the best places for lenses. Sometimes you can find really good sales staff there as well.
Durability and battery life are really excellent among all of the major SLRs. Now there could be some durability differences if you'll be slamming it into rocks and dropping it into the ocean. From experience I can say my Rebel XT 350D that I owned for several years was more rugged than any cell phone I've ever owned.
IMHO, I'd rather go with a used higher end body (even with fewer mega pixels) than a newer lower cost body but that also has it's risks. | |
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Rubicon
Premium
join:2001-02-20
Philly | D60 with the 18-55mm VR and 55-70mm VR is a good start.
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pog
Premium
join:2004-06-03
Kihei, HI
·Hawaiian Telcom
| Re: Nikon D60 or Canon EOS 450D? said by turbonium :... One plus for the D40 is that the flash sync is at 1/500 compared to the 1/250 for most other Nikon like the D40x/60/80. Actually, this isn't all that helpful since the D40's lowest ISO is 200 whereas it's 100 for the D40x/60/80.
IOW, Nikon giveth with one hand and taketh away with the other.
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kewlkeed
Grouch
Premium
join:2005-02-05
Knowlton, QC
| Bingo.
Best thing to do is get them in your hands and try them. If your camera shop isn't willing to put one in your hands and let you shoot, they aren't worth your time.
Every shop I've been to has been more than willing to hand me a unit with a card and batteries and let me shoot around the store (Even outside) to my heart's content. Only one was anal enough to say they wouldn't because "I looked too young to hand a serious piece of equipment" (This was Southgate mall in Edmonton for anyone who wants to blacklist a horrible shop, and that does include both of them in the mall, I was 22 at the time) | |
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chromagnum
@smartbro.net | i just got my nikon d60! very nice and comfortable.. | |
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