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Dogfather
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reply to fancydancer
Re: They didn't keep prices down

Absolutely...bring on a la carte.


Dogfather
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4 edits
reply to jmallory
said by jmallory See Profile :

said by Dogfather See Profile :

Easy tiger. Good for you and your football but there are quite a few people not interested in channel welfare.

Sports fans should pay to support their very expensive channels instead of expecting everyone else to pay for them.
Yep, and as soon as you show me some numbers were 51% of the subscribers don't want at least ESPN, ESPN2, and their RSN...we can talk about the rest.
Look at their ratings, they suck horribly. Even huge games like Yankees Red Sox can't even muster a 3. They only had 2 events in the top twenty with only Nascar pulling better than a 4. 1 decently rated event a week certainly isn't worth the dough they're charging. The week before, only Home Run Derby and pregame cracked the top 20 for ESPN. The week before that, the ONLY ESPN show to make the top 20 was another Yankees Red Sox game and it didn't even pull a 3. More people watched WWE than that game. The July 1st Nielsens; not a SINGLE event or show of ANY ESPN network broke into the top 20.

ESPN aside from an occasional NASCAR event or big baseball game (which would get decent ratings no matter what channel it's on) can't muster any decent ratings. NONE.

Hell, look at the ratings for the so-called popular SportsCenter. They can't even pull a single point. They get a 0.7-0.9. That's the kind of numbers infomercials pull.


Dogfather
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reply to jmallory
Horsecrap...if ESPN was backed out and the price of the package dropped as a result, of course people would like it. People pay $14/mo for HBO, and sports fans who want to watch Australian Dick Wrestling, World's Strongest Man and endless Poker reruns can fork over $10 for ESPN.

jmallory

join:2005-11-02
Clawson, MI

said by Dogfather See Profile :

Horsecrap...if ESPN was backed out and the price of the package dropped as a result, of course people would like it. People pay $14/mo for HBO, and sports fans who want to watch Australian Dick Wrestling, World's Strongest Man and endless Poker reruns can fork over $10 for ESPN.
Like I said, I would like to see you market that unless you are going to force every provider to do it and to divide up their tiers in the exact same manner.


Dogfather
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2 edits
I would go with your logic if ESPN regularly had a lot of events that got big ratings but they don't. Some weeks they have zero shows or events in the top 20. The Deuce, ESPN News and Classic are a complete joke. They should gather of all the sports channels, Fox, ESPN, YES, and put it all on it's own tier because they represent a significant amount of the cable bill (according to providers).

But I do agree, we need a la carte. Then let ESPN compete for business rather than relying on ABC-Disney channel extortion and channel welfare.

Austinloop

join:2001-08-19
Austin, TX
reply to jmallory
I don't watch ESPN and their ilk/spawn and I am on DSLreports and have Dish, so there!


uid1307457
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reply to jmallory
said by jmallory See Profile :

said by Dogfather See Profile :

Easy tiger. Good for you and your football but there are quite a few people not interested in channel welfare.

Sports fans should pay to support their very expensive channels instead of expecting everyone else to pay for them.
Yep, and as soon as you show me some numbers were 51% of the subscribers don't want at least ESPN, ESPN2, and their RSN...we can talk about the rest.
espn can go bankrupt for all i care


uid1307457
Premium
join:2005-12-30
Tempe, AZ

1 edit
reply to jmallory
...


uid1307457
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reply to jmallory
said by jmallory See Profile :

said by mahermusic See Profile :

said by jmallory See Profile :

Just show me the numbers that state even a "simple" majority (51%) are in agreement with you, we will talk. "Me and my friends" isn't going to cut it.
I've even turned off those channels via my TiVo, since noone even watches them.
You don't even make a simple majority of DSLreports subscribers let alone Cable and Satellite subscribers. I have no doubt that there are people who don't watch sports at all on Cable and Satellite, but I believe that they are in the minority.


quote:
USA Network wrapped up 2006 as the most-watched ad-supported cable channel, averaging 2.63 million total viewers in prime time over the course of the year, an increase of 13 percent versus 2005.

According to Nielsen Media Research data, USA also beat all comers in the
core demos, averaging 1.18 million adults 18-49 (an 11 percent increase over 2005) and 1.19 million adults 25-54 (a 9 percent year-to-year hike), breaking TNT's four-year winning streak among the two categories. USA also notched the best number with adults 18-34 (537,000, up 15 percent versus last year).

In the total cable universe, non-ad-supported Disney closed out the year at number two, averaging 2.54 million viewers in prime, a 20 percent jump from its 2005 performance. Disney claimed 12 of the year's top 100 programs of 2006, reaching its apogee on Aug. 25 with its original movie The Cheetah Girls 2, which debuted to 8.12 million viewers between 8 p.m. and 10 p.m.

Among ad-supported nets, TNT finished on the heels of rival USA, averaging 2.38 million viewers in prime, a dip of 7 percent from the number it posted in 2005. The Turner net also took second among adults 18-49 (1.07 million, down 8 percent) and adults 25-54 (1.14 million, down 8 percent)

i dont see espn here:

»articles.latimes.com/2008/mar/26···et-usa26
quote:
USA’s view from the top

The reinvented cable network is No. 1 thanks to its president and a few quirky characters.

By Matea Gold
March 26, 2008 in print edition E-1

NEW YORK – When USA Network holds its annual upfront presentation here this evening to pitch advertisers on upcoming programming, the cable channel won’t just be spotlighting its new development slate.

Also on display: the triumphant four-year tenure of its president, Bonnie Hammer, who helped USA regain basic cable’s top perch.

The channel brought in nearly $700 million in profit last year, an impressive amount even compared with the broadcast networks, including NBC, its corporate sibling, which made about $300 million. USA’s success has helped lift Hammer’s fortunes as well. On Monday, NBC Universal announced it was expanding her domain by giving her oversight of a new cable studio split off from Universal Media Studios and putting her in charge of “emerging” cable channels such as Chiller and Sleuth.

The only thing surprising about Hammer’s new responsibilities is that she didn’t get them sooner. Since the television veteran took over USA in 2004, it has shaken off its reputation for stale programming and reinvigorated a graying audience with younger viewers.

By wooing World Wrestling Entertainment back to the channel and promoting the likes of Tony Shalhoub’s obsessive-compulsive detective Adrian Monk as part of its “Characters Welcome” brand, USA reclaimed the top spot in prime time on ad-supported cable in 2006 for the first time in six years. Last year, the channel beat its competitors again with a record average of 2.7 million viewers.

So far this quarter, USA’s audience is up 7% over the same period last year to nearly 3 million viewers, putting it ahead of the broadcast network the CW for the first time.

it is you that should be proving to us that more people watch ESPN because we have plenty of proof that is not true

jmallory

join:2005-11-02
Clawson, MI
reply to Dogfather
It isn't the number of eyeballs that matter, it is the type of consumer those eyeballs are attached to and it is a very lucrative consumer.

jmallory

join:2005-11-02
Clawson, MI

reply to Dogfather
said by Dogfather See Profile :

I would go with your logic if ESPN regularly had a lot of events that got big ratings but they don't. Some weeks they have zero shows or events in the top 20. The Deuce, ESPN News and Classic are a complete joke. They should gather of all the sports channels, Fox, ESPN, YES, and put it all on it's own tier because they represent a significant amount of the cable bill (according to providers).

But I do agree, we need a la carte. Then let ESPN compete for business rather than relying on ABC-Disney channel extortion and channel welfare.
Your not getting what I am saying at all.

Here are my points ...

1.) The "AVERAGE" consumer expects ESPN, ESPN2, and their local RSN(s) in the basic subscription package. Not offering it would put your system at a distinct disadvantage over your competitors. Back in Dish was getting started Charlie swore he would never offer porn (playboy, etc) on his system. Well, turns out, people who subscribe to Playboy also subscribe to premium channels, sports packages, and pay-per-view and if Charley wanted anything more than a lot of low-margin basic channel only subscribers he needed to add porn to his system. Charlie, also tried to apply pressure on the RSNs to keep increases small and booted them off the systems for awhile. All that accomplished was lighting up the Echostar switchboard with people looking to complain and/or cancel their service. In each case, Charlie had to step off his high horse and do what was right for his business. Lesson Learned.

2.) It is not the ratings per se, it is the demographics that make the sports channels lucrative. If I was an advertiser I would rather have 100,000 viewers that actually purchase things than 1 million who don't.

3.) We all pay for channels we don't want. That is how this business works for better or worse. Unfortunately, nothing short of regulation or mass consumer revolt is going to change this model so unless you are going to vote in a liberal government I don't think regulation will be coming nor does it look like consumers will revolt either. Most people may not be happy with this arrangement but accept it.

4.) If this arrangement is not agreeable to you then simply cancel the service and tell them and any provider that tries to set you up that you will not be subscribing until your conditions are met. Cable / Satellite isn't a necessity. In fact, you mentioned that you are a big Discovery Networks fan, so why not just cancel the cable / sat service and take that $600 bucks a year or so and purchase Discovery DVD / Blu-rays with it. Much better picture and sound quality than you will get from Cable or Satellite and hey all your money goes directly to them and none of it goes to ESPN, FSN, or any other network you don't like. A much more effective way of showing the people you like their programming and as a side benefit every business related article on DLSreports doesn't turn into an ala carte argument....hey everybody wins!


DishItOut

@rr.com

reply to jmallory
said by jmallory See Profile :

said by wentlanc See Profile :

I don't watch them either. And if 51% do, let the other 49% of us cut that $5 - $6 from our bills.

Turning your logic against you, you don't make up a simple majority of anything either, so who are you to talk so poorly of the rest of us?

cw
Wasn't putting anyone down...all I am saying is that if the majority of people expect things to be a certain way (like having ESPN, ESPN2, and FSN as part of basic service) then that is the way it is going to be.
Enabling ala-carte would go a long way to disprove the notion that "a majority" want ESPN.

Instead, we are cleverly forced to buy 2nd or 3rd tiers to access ONE channel. Whether that's LifeTimeMovies or Travel or Golf or FNC is immaterial, it is a form of extortion. I refuse to pay $60 a month for one channel, so we do without.
Most of my peers do likewise - Netflix, Blockbuster, RedBox, the library, rabbit ears, radio and YouTube fill void.


Dogfather
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2 edits
reply to jmallory
The ratings don't indicate that the "average" consumer gives two squirts of piss about ESPN or RSNs. Their ratings are horrible.

And the difference is these sports channels are very expensive compared to other channels that suck.

Again we see the take it or leave it attitude as if I'm not allowed to be critical of Dish Network's policies that are obviously resulting in lost subscribers and I would guess it's over price.

ESPN sucks ass and that sucking is clearly reflected by their horrible ratings. These crap sports channels, being as expensive as they are should be treated like other overpriced programing (eg HBO). Basic cable subs shouldn't be subsidizing your sports habit to the tune of a big chunk of their cable bill.


Dogfather
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reply to uid1307457
There are some rare events like Home Run Derby that can get a decent rating M 18-24, M 25-54 but that programming is so rare as to not justify the extortion pricing ABC charges MSOs and DBS for the channels. Perhaps if ESPN didn't get the huge channel welfare checks, they would have to improve their programming lineup.


dvd536
as Mr. Pink as they come
Premium
join:2001-04-27
Phoenix, AZ

reply to Dogfather
said by Dogfather See Profile :

Sports should be on its own tier.
AMEN!
--
When I gez aju zavateh na nalechoo more new yonooz tonigh molinigh - Ken Lee


Cheese
Premium
join:2003-10-26
Naples, FL
clubs:
reply to jmallory
No sports channels here either...I don't really care for them TBH


Cheese
Premium
join:2003-10-26
Naples, FL
clubs:

reply to jmallory
said by jmallory See Profile :

said by Dogfather See Profile :

I would go with your logic if ESPN regularly had a lot of events that got big ratings but they don't. Some weeks they have zero shows or events in the top 20. The Deuce, ESPN News and Classic are a complete joke. They should gather of all the sports channels, Fox, ESPN, YES, and put it all on it's own tier because they represent a significant amount of the cable bill (according to providers).

But I do agree, we need a la carte. Then let ESPN compete for business rather than relying on ABC-Disney channel extortion and channel welfare.
Your not getting what I am saying at all.

Here are my points ...

1.) The "AVERAGE" consumer expects ESPN, ESPN2, and their local RSN(s) in the basic subscription package. Not offering it would put your system at a distinct disadvantage over your competitors. Back in Dish was getting started Charlie swore he would never offer porn (playboy, etc) on his system. Well, turns out, people who subscribe to Playboy also subscribe to premium channels, sports packages, and pay-per-view and if Charley wanted anything more than a lot of low-margin basic channel only subscribers he needed to add porn to his system. Charlie, also tried to apply pressure on the RSNs to keep increases small and booted them off the systems for awhile. All that accomplished was lighting up the Echostar switchboard with people looking to complain and/or cancel their service. In each case, Charlie had to step off his high horse and do what was right for his business. Lesson Learned.

2.) It is not the ratings per se, it is the demographics that make the sports channels lucrative. If I was an advertiser I would rather have 100,000 viewers that actually purchase things than 1 million who don't.

3.) We all pay for channels we don't want. That is how this business works for better or worse. Unfortunately, nothing short of regulation or mass consumer revolt is going to change this model so unless you are going to vote in a liberal government I don't think regulation will be coming nor does it look like consumers will revolt either. Most people may not be happy with this arrangement but accept it.

4.) If this arrangement is not agreeable to you then simply cancel the service and tell them and any provider that tries to set you up that you will not be subscribing until your conditions are met. Cable / Satellite isn't a necessity. In fact, you mentioned that you are a big Discovery Networks fan, so why not just cancel the cable / sat service and take that $600 bucks a year or so and purchase Discovery DVD / Blu-rays with it. Much better picture and sound quality than you will get from Cable or Satellite and hey all your money goes directly to them and none of it goes to ESPN, FSN, or any other network you don't like. A much more effective way of showing the people you like their programming and as a side benefit every business related article on DLSreports doesn't turn into an ala carte argument....hey everybody wins!
You are under the assumption that a majority of people want ESPN, you have no idea what people want...

jmallory

join:2005-11-02
Clawson, MI

reply to Dogfather
Well I'm sorry but some things in life are "take it or leave it." I'm sorry your parents didn't explain that to you while you were growing up (assuming your an adult and not some 15-year old kid).

On your second point, P. J. O'Rourke said that nothing is worth more than someone else is willing to pay for it. Hunter S. Thompson said "You pay for your ticket, and you take your ride."

On your third point, you can be critical all you want, but the reality is 1.) This is an industry wide pricing scheme not just Dish's and 2.) I think there is more going on here than people don't want to pay for ESPN. If you want to make an impact on this...vote for people who will represent you, vote with your wallet.

If Basic cable subscribers don't want to subsidize "my" (sic) sports habit, they are always free not to subscribe.


Dogfather
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1 edit
Well than Dish Network and look forward to more subscriber losses due to their high prices thanks in no small part to the channel welfare program that keeps a minority of subs happy.

I just think it would be nice if the few ESPN fans weren't leeching off other subs and would support their own habits for a change. But like all welfare recipients they'll attack anyone who dare question their freebees.

jmallory

join:2005-11-02
Clawson, MI
I'm not leeching off anybody...I am paying for my ESPN subscription (right there in my programming package).
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