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Forums » Satellite TV Sees First Quarterly Subscriber Loss Ever » They didn't keep prices down
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jmallory

join:2005-11-02
Clawson, MI

Re: They didn't keep prices down

said by Dogfather See Profile :

After a long history of fighting the channel extortionists Charlie seems to give in often as of late, passing on increases to customers. The result is higher prices and fewer customers.
That's because as much as you may hate ESPN, FSN, etc ... you simply cannot offer a Pay-TV service without them. Plus, I don't how much of Charley "fighting" them was actually "fighting" ... when you have good growth you can absorb a lot of the increases...but new sub growth has been slowing for awhile now and those increases now have to be passed on to customers.

Dogfather
Premium
join:2007-12-26
Laguna Hills, CA

Re: They didn't keep prices down

Sports should be on its own tier.
jmallory

join:2005-11-02
Clawson, MI

Re: They didn't keep prices down

said by Dogfather See Profile :

Sports should be on its own tier.
Yes and we can have that argument for the next week as well, but the current market reality is that that the overwhelming majority of your prospective customers expect ESPN, ESPN2, and their local RSNs in the basic package. Until something changes in the market such as regulatory requirements..you have to offer it or your service isn't competitive.

Dogfather
Premium
join:2007-12-26
Laguna Hills, CA

Re: They didn't keep prices down

Given ESPNs low ratings I would disagree.
jmallory

join:2005-11-02
Clawson, MI


2 edits

Re: They didn't keep prices down

said by Dogfather See Profile :

Given ESPNs low ratings I would disagree.
Tell you what, you go setup your own service with all the sports on another Tier, and you report back with how successful you are.

Ratings are irrelevant in this particular discussion, people may not watch ESPN all the time, but they want access to it. During the peak of football season I may watch 12 hours of ESPN weekly...1/2 to 1/3 that any other time...but I would still want it.

Dogfather
Premium
join:2007-12-26
Laguna Hills, CA

Re: They didn't keep prices down

Easy tiger. Good for you and your football but there are quite a few people not interested in channel welfare.

Sports fans should pay to support their very expensive channels instead of expecting everyone else to pay for them.
jmallory

join:2005-11-02
Clawson, MI

Re: They didn't keep prices down

said by Dogfather See Profile :

Easy tiger. Good for you and your football but there are quite a few people not interested in channel welfare.

Sports fans should pay to support their very expensive channels instead of expecting everyone else to pay for them.
Yep, and as soon as you show me some numbers were 51% of the subscribers don't want at least ESPN, ESPN2, and their RSN...we can talk about the rest.

Dogfather
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4 edits

Re: They didn't keep prices down

said by jmallory See Profile :

said by Dogfather See Profile :

Easy tiger. Good for you and your football but there are quite a few people not interested in channel welfare.

Sports fans should pay to support their very expensive channels instead of expecting everyone else to pay for them.
Yep, and as soon as you show me some numbers were 51% of the subscribers don't want at least ESPN, ESPN2, and their RSN...we can talk about the rest.
Look at their ratings, they suck horribly. Even huge games like Yankees Red Sox can't even muster a 3. They only had 2 events in the top twenty with only Nascar pulling better than a 4. 1 decently rated event a week certainly isn't worth the dough they're charging. The week before, only Home Run Derby and pregame cracked the top 20 for ESPN. The week before that, the ONLY ESPN show to make the top 20 was another Yankees Red Sox game and it didn't even pull a 3. More people watched WWE than that game. The July 1st Nielsens; not a SINGLE event or show of ANY ESPN network broke into the top 20.

ESPN aside from an occasional NASCAR event or big baseball game (which would get decent ratings no matter what channel it's on) can't muster any decent ratings. NONE.

Hell, look at the ratings for the so-called popular SportsCenter. They can't even pull a single point. They get a 0.7-0.9. That's the kind of numbers infomercials pull.
jmallory

join:2005-11-02
Clawson, MI

Re: They didn't keep prices down

It isn't the number of eyeballs that matter, it is the type of consumer those eyeballs are attached to and it is a very lucrative consumer.

uid1307457
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said by jmallory See Profile :

said by Dogfather See Profile :

Easy tiger. Good for you and your football but there are quite a few people not interested in channel welfare.

Sports fans should pay to support their very expensive channels instead of expecting everyone else to pay for them.
Yep, and as soon as you show me some numbers were 51% of the subscribers don't want at least ESPN, ESPN2, and their RSN...we can talk about the rest.
espn can go bankrupt for all i care

Hi Desert

@qwest.net

said by jmallory See Profile :

said by Dogfather See Profile :

Easy tiger. Good for you and your football but there are quite a few people not interested in channel welfare.

Sports fans should pay to support their very expensive channels instead of expecting everyone else to pay for them.
Yep, and as soon as you show me some numbers were 51% of the subscribers don't want at least ESPN, ESPN2, and their RSN...we can talk about the rest.


You got it all wrong. Its not the market that is demanding ESPN to stay on all channel tiers. Its Disney's practice to bundle less popular channels with popular ones and even with some of their local networks they own. For example, if Dish wanted to create a tier without the expensive sports crap then Disney would drop Lifetime, possibly ABC, cartoon channels etc.. Its common knowledge that Disney extorts extra money through bundling extortion.. just do a google to confirm that. Disney owns so many channels as a content provider and they can basically charge more through bundling. Its totally wrong and is the major reason this industry needs regulation. These channels should exist on their own merit not on subsidies. And ESPN probably has the highest carriage fee of any channel and is one of the least watched channel. I'm sick of the increases myself and every time Dish has a hike I cut back services. I dropped one of my tuners last time. Next increase they will see me say goodbye.

N3OGH
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I can't remember the last time I watched ESPN.

I watch more Weather Channel and News channels than anything else.

Maybe History, Discovery, and AMC.

But I agree, at this point ESPN and other sports channels should be on a separate tier, given their cost.
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fancydancer
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2 edits
said by Dogfather See Profile
Sports fans should pay to support their very expensive channels instead of expecting everyone else to pay for them.
By the same token, News (or insert channel type) channels should be on their own tier since I don't watch them and therefore should not have to subsidize them for everyone else. Gimme a break!
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Dogfather
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join:2007-12-26
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Re: They didn't keep prices down

Absolutely...bring on a la carte.
john1290

join:2003-12-06
Reynoldsburg, OH

said by jmallory See Profile :

said by Dogfather See Profile :

Sports should be on its own tier.
Yes and we can have that argument for the next week as well, but the current market reality is that that the overwhelming majority of your prospective customers expect ESPN, ESPN2, and their local RSNs in the basic package.
Says you. I hate any and all sports channels. I can't wait for the day of REASONABLE a la carte pricing. Once that happens, so long espn, mtv and many other worthless channels. Go on and cry that this will also kill off History channel, Discovery and other good channels. To that I say hardly. Because I believe that the majority of people here in the US actually watch/like those channels. Every time my friends and I discuss the dream of a la carte pricing, we're ALL in agreement that sports and music channels need to go buh-bye. Let you sports type pay the premiums to keep those types of shows on the air. I'm confident that most people will be happy to pay for/watch Discovery, History, TLC type stuff.

hobgoblin
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Re: They didn't keep prices down

Top 20 Cable shows

Rank Shows NET DAY(S) Live+SD HH Rating Viewers Live+SD (000)
1 CLOSER, THE TNT MONDAY 4.7 7,058
2 NASCAR SPRINT CUP L (BRICKYARD 400) ESPN SUNDAY 4.3 6,668
3 HANNAH & MILEY:BEST OF DSNY SATURDAY 3.0 5,864
4 MONK USA FRIDAY 3.1 5,062
5 WWE ENTERTAINMENT (WWE RAW) USA MONDAY 3.0 4,961
6 BURN NOTICE USA THURSDAY 3.0 4,760
7 SAVING GRACE TNT MONDAY 3.1 4,571
8 FOOD NETWORK STAR FOOD SUNDAY 2.8 4,508
9 WWE ENTERTAINMENT (WWE RAW) USA MONDAY 2.7 4,494
10 PSYCH USA FRIDAY 2.8 4,484
11 ICARLY NICK FRIDAY 2.7 4,446
12 LAW & ORDER: CI (ORIG) USA SUNDAY 2.9 4,321
13 MLB SUNDAY NIGHT L (YANKEES/RED SOX) ESPN SUNDAY 2.8 4,230
14 IN PLAIN SIGHT USA SUNDAY 2.8 4,174
15 INCREDIBLES, THE DSNY SUNDAY 2.4 3,922
16 CAMP ROCK DSNY THURSDAY 2.4 3,913
17 ICARLY NICK FRIDAY 2.3 3,815
18 TBS PRIME MOVIE (LAST HOLIDAY) TBSC SUNDAY 2.4 3,813
19 S HANNAH MONTANA(S)-07/26/2008 DSNY SATURDAY 2.3 3,768
20 SPONGEBOB NICK SUNDAY 2.4 3,716

Not seeing many of your channels on there
--
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jmallory

join:2005-11-02
Clawson, MI


1 edit
said by john1290 See Profile :

said by jmallory See Profile :

said by Dogfather See Profile :

Sports should be on its own tier.
Yes and we can have that argument for the next week as well, but the current market reality is that that the overwhelming majority of your prospective customers expect ESPN, ESPN2, and their local RSNs in the basic package.
Says you. I hate any and all sports channels. I can't wait for the day of REASONABLE a la carte pricing. Once that happens, so long espn, mtv and many other worthless channels. Go on and cry that this will also kill off History channel, Discovery and other good channels. To that I say hardly. Because I believe that the majority of people here in the US actually watch/like those channels. Every time my friends and I discuss the dream of a la carte pricing, we're ALL in agreement that sports and music channels need to go buh-bye. Let you sports type pay the premiums to keep those types of shows on the air. I'm confident that most people will be happy to pay for/watch Discovery, History, TLC type stuff.
Just show me the numbers that state even a "simple" majority (51%) are in agreement with you, we will talk. "Me and my friends" isn't going to cut it.

In addition, you know, if you really like the Discovery / TLC programming (and you should because a lot of it is top notch), you can always just buy the DVD/Blu-Rays when they are released. I have the complete Planet Earth Blu-Ray set (actually I have the BBC release) and I have been buying the Discovery Atlas series on HD-DVD and Blu-Ray when they are on sale. I also plan on getting "When We Left The Earth" as well to. You can see all the programming you like without even subscribing to Cable or Satellite.


mahermusic

join:2001-07-06
Chesterfield, NJ
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Re: They didn't keep prices down

said by jmallory See Profile :

Just show me the numbers that state even a "simple" majority (51%) are in agreement with you, we will talk. "Me and my friends" isn't going to cut it.
I've even turned off those channels via my TiVo, since noone even watches them.
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jmallory

join:2005-11-02
Clawson, MI

Re: They didn't keep prices down

said by mahermusic See Profile :

said by jmallory See Profile :

Just show me the numbers that state even a "simple" majority (51%) are in agreement with you, we will talk. "Me and my friends" isn't going to cut it.
I've even turned off those channels via my TiVo, since noone even watches them.
You don't even make a simple majority of DSLreports subscribers let alone Cable and Satellite subscribers. I have no doubt that there are people who don't watch sports at all on Cable and Satellite, but I believe that they are in the minority.
wentlanc
You Can't Fix Dumb..

join:2003-07-30
Maineville, OH

Re: They didn't keep prices down

I don't watch them either. And if 51% do, let the other 49% of us cut that $5 - $6 from our bills.

Turning your logic against you, you don't make up a simple majority of anything either, so who are you to talk so poorly of the rest of us?

cw
jmallory

join:2005-11-02
Clawson, MI

Re: They didn't keep prices down

said by wentlanc See Profile :

I don't watch them either. And if 51% do, let the other 49% of us cut that $5 - $6 from our bills.

Turning your logic against you, you don't make up a simple majority of anything either, so who are you to talk so poorly of the rest of us?

cw
Wasn't putting anyone down...all I am saying is that if the majority of people expect things to be a certain way (like having ESPN, ESPN2, and FSN as part of basic service) then that is the way it is going to be.

DishItOut

@rr.com

Re: They didn't keep prices down

said by jmallory See Profile :

said by wentlanc See Profile :

I don't watch them either. And if 51% do, let the other 49% of us cut that $5 - $6 from our bills.

Turning your logic against you, you don't make up a simple majority of anything either, so who are you to talk so poorly of the rest of us?

cw
Wasn't putting anyone down...all I am saying is that if the majority of people expect things to be a certain way (like having ESPN, ESPN2, and FSN as part of basic service) then that is the way it is going to be.
Enabling ala-carte would go a long way to disprove the notion that "a majority" want ESPN.

Instead, we are cleverly forced to buy 2nd or 3rd tiers to access ONE channel. Whether that's LifeTimeMovies or Travel or Golf or FNC is immaterial, it is a form of extortion. I refuse to pay $60 a month for one channel, so we do without.
Most of my peers do likewise - Netflix, Blockbuster, RedBox, the library, rabbit ears, radio and YouTube fill void.
rahvin112

join:2002-05-24
Sandy, UT

Disney has convinced you of that fallacy. Remember when you pay that $6 for ESPN every month the vast majority of it goes to support all the other BS channels Disney offers. If the providers of the channels (not the delivery companies like the cable and satellite) were forced to unbundle their channels and sell them to the providers individually your bill would go DOWN. ESPN would drop significantly in price without 90% of the charge for it being used to subsidize a dozen channels you don't watch.

By forcing unbundled the Sat. and Cable companies could offer REAL packages that people want a drop all the BS channels that have less than a 1000 people watching them. Half your TV bill supports mostly channels you don't watch and likely never will because Disney and the other content providers force the delivery companies to buy them and sell them to subscribers.

mahermusic

join:2001-07-06
Chesterfield, NJ
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said by jmallory See Profile :

said by wentlanc See Profile :

I don't watch them either. And if 51% do, let the other 49% of us cut that $5 - $6 from our bills.

Turning your logic against you, you don't make up a simple majority of anything either, so who are you to talk so poorly of the rest of us?

cw
Wasn't putting anyone down...all I am saying is that if the majority of people expect things to be a certain way (like having ESPN, ESPN2, and FSN as part of basic service) then that is the way it is going to be.
I agree... and since it seems that YOU'RE in the minority here. You must be wrong. "That's the way it's going to be"...
--
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Cheese
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Naples, FL
clubs:

Re: They didn't keep prices down

said by mahermusic See Profile :

said by jmallory See Profile :

said by wentlanc See Profile :

I don't watch them either. And if 51% do, let the other 49% of us cut that $5 - $6 from our bills.

Turning your logic against you, you don't make up a simple majority of anything either, so who are you to talk so poorly of the rest of us?

cw
Wasn't putting anyone down...all I am saying is that if the majority of people expect things to be a certain way (like having ESPN, ESPN2, and FSN as part of basic service) then that is the way it is going to be.
I agree... and since it seems that YOU'RE in the minority here. You must be wrong. "That's the way it's going to be"...
He will state he is not in the majority, just watch

mahermusic

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Re: They didn't keep prices down

said by Cheese See Profile :

He will state he is not in the majority, just watch
Oh please. He's an idiot that doesn't understand the simplicities regarding noone wanting to watch ESPN. No need to watch anything here!
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Cheese
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Re: They didn't keep prices down

said by mahermusic See Profile :

said by Cheese See Profile :

He will state he is not in the majority, just watch
Oh please. He's an idiot that doesn't understand the simplicities regarding noone wanting to watch ESPN. No need to watch anything here!
:D
Corydon
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Without solid numbers, you're both just blowing smoke.

Incidentally, the question isn't whether a majority watch sports on television, but whether they watch ESPN...a completely different question altogether.

Just browsing through what's on ESPN for the next days, I see:

- Lots of Sports Center
- World Series of Poker (this is what qualifies as sports these days?)
- "X-Games" (ditto)
- A handful of talk shows about baseball, football or a few other things
- Two out-of-market baseball games.
- One out-of-market pre-season NFL game (Saints and Cardinals).

Granted, that's taken in the doldrums of summer, but still...I'd find it hard to believe that anyone who's not a pretty hardcore sports fan would get all that worked up about what they have on. Certainly nothing that a combination of local news and sports coverage plus talk radio doesn't cover at least as well and for free.
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jmallory

join:2005-11-02
Clawson, MI


1 edit

Re: They didn't keep prices down

said by Corydon See Profile :

Without solid numbers, you're both just blowing smoke.

Incidentally, the question isn't whether a majority watch sports on television, but whether they watch ESPN...a completely different question altogether.

Just browsing through what's on ESPN for the next days, I see:

- Lots of Sports Center
- World Series of Poker (this is what qualifies as sports these days?)
- "X-Games" (ditto)
- A handful of talk shows about baseball, football or a few other things
- Two out-of-market baseball games.
- One out-of-market pre-season NFL game (Saints and Cardinals).

Granted, that's taken in the doldrums of summer, but still...I'd find it hard to believe that anyone who's not a pretty hardcore sports fan would get all that worked up about what they have on. Certainly nothing that a combination of local news and sports coverage plus talk radio doesn't cover at least as well and for free.
I have never argued that people watch a lot of ESPN, that isn't the point. The point is that if you started a Satellite TV package today and you did market research and you asked people what channels that people wanted to be part of your "basic" package (let's say 40 channels), I would think most knowledgeable people would say that the majority of them would have ESPN, ESPN2, and their RSN in that list somewhere.

I'm not saying a lot of people regularly watch it, I am not saying it is worth what ESPN is charging for it, I am just saying that most people expect it to be part of the basic programming package.

Dogfather
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Re: They didn't keep prices down

Horsecrap...if ESPN was backed out and the price of the package dropped as a result, of course people would like it. People pay $14/mo for HBO, and sports fans who want to watch Australian Dick Wrestling, World's Strongest Man and endless Poker reruns can fork over $10 for ESPN.
jmallory

join:2005-11-02
Clawson, MI

Re: They didn't keep prices down

said by Dogfather See Profile :

Horsecrap...if ESPN was backed out and the price of the package dropped as a result, of course people would like it. People pay $14/mo for HBO, and sports fans who want to watch Australian Dick Wrestling, World's Strongest Man and endless Poker reruns can fork over $10 for ESPN.
Like I said, I would like to see you market that unless you are going to force every provider to do it and to divide up their tiers in the exact same manner.

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2 edits

Re: They didn't keep prices down

I would go with your logic if ESPN regularly had a lot of events that got big ratings but they don't. Some weeks they have zero shows or events in the top 20. The Deuce, ESPN News and Classic are a complete joke. They should gather of all the sports channels, Fox, ESPN, YES, and put it all on it's own tier because they represent a significant amount of the cable bill (according to providers).

But I do agree, we need a la carte. Then let ESPN compete for business rather than relying on ABC-Disney channel extortion and channel welfare.

See 7 replies to this post
garyjpete

join:2008-08-05
Idaho Falls, ID

It seems to me that one point everyone agrees on is that in a free market, the demand of the consumers should dictate the supply of the producers. It is obvious to me, an everything pack subscriber with Dish, that there is enough of a demand for ESPN and every channel package to justify the corporate decision to keep the structure the way it is.

If Dish was to take the risk on it's own to offer a-la-carte programming, who can guarantee that Direct TV will do the same? Who's to say that an a-la-carte programming scheme will not adversely affect the current channel pricing structure? I would love to create my own package and cut my bill in half, but as long as the market demands stay relatively the same, the programming options will not change.

The price per channel with any pay tv service is seriously discounted when it's in a bundle. It's more cost effective and profitable for the networks and service providers that way, and believe it or not, cheaper for the consumer. Breaking these packages up would simply create an increase in the cost per channel to the point where you could easily pay more for less channels and still not be able to reasonably afford the channels you want.

Yes, supply and demand ideally control the market, but the market can break down, and then what do we do? Dish's loss of 25,000 customers is hardly a drop in the bucket, considering the 13+ million that still pay for extra channels they don't watch, be they ESPN or TNT.

Do the math on that. 39.99 a month x 13,000,000 is $519,870,000 a month, x 12 months = $6,238,440,000 per year if every subscriber is only paying for the DVR Advantage top 100 with locals. Do you have any idea how much money 6 billion dollars is? Warren Buffet was at one point the richest man in the world with a net worth of 8 billion dollars, a net worth, not annual gross proceeds! The last quarter's loss of 25,000 customers equates to $999,750 which is nothing considering the slowed growth was still over 150,000 new customers.

When i stop and look at these figures, the Nielsen ratings and my personal preferences don't really make a difference since Dish Network is not a consumer based democracy, but rather a corporation that, like any entity, has to find ways to survive amongst its competition for vital resources, namely you and I. The one we feed is the one that survives, and choose to feed Dish, for the time being, to get what i want out of it. When Dish becomes unreasonable, I can leave it behind for something else. For now, it's the most reasonable option I have for what I want.
Austinloop

join:2001-08-19
Austin, TX
I don't watch ESPN and their ilk/spawn and I am on DSLreports and have Dish, so there!

uid1307457
Premium
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1 edit
...

Cheese
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Naples, FL
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No sports channels here either...I don't really care for them TBH

uid1307457
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said by jmallory See Profile :

said by mahermusic See Profile :

said by jmallory See Profile :

Just show me the numbers that state even a "simple" majority (51%) are in agreement with you, we will talk. "Me and my friends" isn't going to cut it.
I've even turned off those channels via my TiVo, since noone even watches them.
You don't even make a simple majority of DSLreports subscribers let alone Cable and Satellite subscribers. I have no doubt that there are people who don't watch sports at all on Cable and Satellite, but I believe that they are in the minority.


quote:
USA Network wrapped up 2006 as the most-watched ad-supported cable channel, averaging 2.63 million total viewers in prime time over the course of the year, an increase of 13 percent versus 2005.

According to Nielsen Media Research data, USA also beat all comers in the
core demos, averaging 1.18 million adults 18-49 (an 11 percent increase over 2005) and 1.19 million adults 25-54 (a 9 percent year-to-year hike), breaking TNT's four-year winning streak among the two categories. USA also notched the best number with adults 18-34 (537,000, up 15 percent versus last year).

In the total cable universe, non-ad-supported Disney closed out the year at number two, averaging 2.54 million viewers in prime, a 20 percent jump from its 2005 performance. Disney claimed 12 of the year's top 100 programs of 2006, reaching its apogee on Aug. 25 with its original movie The Cheetah Girls 2, which debuted to 8.12 million viewers between 8 p.m. and 10 p.m.

Among ad-supported nets, TNT finished on the heels of rival USA, averaging 2.38 million viewers in prime, a dip of 7 percent from the number it posted in 2005. The Turner net also took second among adults 18-49 (1.07 million, down 8 percent) and adults 25-54 (1.14 million, down 8 percent)

i dont see espn here:

»articles.latimes.com/2008/mar/26···et-usa26
quote:
USA’s view from the top

The reinvented cable network is No. 1 thanks to its president and a few quirky characters.

By Matea Gold
March 26, 2008 in print edition E-1

NEW YORK – When USA Network holds its annual upfront presentation here this evening to pitch advertisers on upcoming programming, the cable channel won’t just be spotlighting its new development slate.

Also on display: the triumphant four-year tenure of its president, Bonnie Hammer, who helped USA regain basic cable’s top perch.

The channel brought in nearly $700 million in profit last year, an impressive amount even compared with the broadcast networks, including NBC, its corporate sibling, which made about $300 million. USA’s success has helped lift Hammer’s fortunes as well. On Monday, NBC Universal announced it was expanding her domain by giving her oversight of a new cable studio split off from Universal Media Studios and putting her in charge of “emerging” cable channels such as Chiller and Sleuth.

The only thing surprising about Hammer’s new responsibilities is that she didn’t get them sooner. Since the television veteran took over USA in 2004, it has shaken off its reputation for stale programming and reinvigorated a graying audience with younger viewers.

By wooing World Wrestling Entertainment back to the channel and promoting the likes of Tony Shalhoub’s obsessive-compulsive detective Adrian Monk as part of its “Characters Welcome” brand, USA reclaimed the top spot in prime time on ad-supported cable in 2006 for the first time in six years. Last year, the channel beat its competitors again with a record average of 2.7 million viewers.

So far this quarter, USA’s audience is up 7% over the same period last year to nearly 3 million viewers, putting it ahead of the broadcast network the CW for the first time.

it is you that should be proving to us that more people watch ESPN because we have plenty of proof that is not true

See 7 replies to this post

dvd536
as Mr. Pink as they come
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said by Dogfather See Profile :

Sports should be on its own tier.
AMEN!
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