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john1290

join:2003-12-06
Reynoldsburg, OH

reply to jmallory
Re: They didn't keep prices down

said by jmallory See Profile :

said by Dogfather See Profile :

Sports should be on its own tier.
Yes and we can have that argument for the next week as well, but the current market reality is that that the overwhelming majority of your prospective customers expect ESPN, ESPN2, and their local RSNs in the basic package.
Says you. I hate any and all sports channels. I can't wait for the day of REASONABLE a la carte pricing. Once that happens, so long espn, mtv and many other worthless channels. Go on and cry that this will also kill off History channel, Discovery and other good channels. To that I say hardly. Because I believe that the majority of people here in the US actually watch/like those channels. Every time my friends and I discuss the dream of a la carte pricing, we're ALL in agreement that sports and music channels need to go buh-bye. Let you sports type pay the premiums to keep those types of shows on the air. I'm confident that most people will be happy to pay for/watch Discovery, History, TLC type stuff.


hobgoblin
Sortof Agoblin
Premium
join:2001-11-25
Orchard Park, NY
clubs:

Top 20 Cable shows

Rank Shows NET DAY(S) Live+SD HH Rating Viewers Live+SD (000)
1 CLOSER, THE TNT MONDAY 4.7 7,058
2 NASCAR SPRINT CUP L (BRICKYARD 400) ESPN SUNDAY 4.3 6,668
3 HANNAH & MILEY:BEST OF DSNY SATURDAY 3.0 5,864
4 MONK USA FRIDAY 3.1 5,062
5 WWE ENTERTAINMENT (WWE RAW) USA MONDAY 3.0 4,961
6 BURN NOTICE USA THURSDAY 3.0 4,760
7 SAVING GRACE TNT MONDAY 3.1 4,571
8 FOOD NETWORK STAR FOOD SUNDAY 2.8 4,508
9 WWE ENTERTAINMENT (WWE RAW) USA MONDAY 2.7 4,494
10 PSYCH USA FRIDAY 2.8 4,484
11 ICARLY NICK FRIDAY 2.7 4,446
12 LAW & ORDER: CI (ORIG) USA SUNDAY 2.9 4,321
13 MLB SUNDAY NIGHT L (YANKEES/RED SOX) ESPN SUNDAY 2.8 4,230
14 IN PLAIN SIGHT USA SUNDAY 2.8 4,174
15 INCREDIBLES, THE DSNY SUNDAY 2.4 3,922
16 CAMP ROCK DSNY THURSDAY 2.4 3,913
17 ICARLY NICK FRIDAY 2.3 3,815
18 TBS PRIME MOVIE (LAST HOLIDAY) TBSC SUNDAY 2.4 3,813
19 S HANNAH MONTANA(S)-07/26/2008 DSNY SATURDAY 2.3 3,768
20 SPONGEBOB NICK SUNDAY 2.4 3,716

Not seeing many of your channels on there
--
"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."
- Ralph Waldo Emerson

jmallory

join:2005-11-02
Clawson, MI


1 edit
reply to john1290
said by john1290 See Profile :

said by jmallory See Profile :

said by Dogfather See Profile :

Sports should be on its own tier.
Yes and we can have that argument for the next week as well, but the current market reality is that that the overwhelming majority of your prospective customers expect ESPN, ESPN2, and their local RSNs in the basic package.
Says you. I hate any and all sports channels. I can't wait for the day of REASONABLE a la carte pricing. Once that happens, so long espn, mtv and many other worthless channels. Go on and cry that this will also kill off History channel, Discovery and other good channels. To that I say hardly. Because I believe that the majority of people here in the US actually watch/like those channels. Every time my friends and I discuss the dream of a la carte pricing, we're ALL in agreement that sports and music channels need to go buh-bye. Let you sports type pay the premiums to keep those types of shows on the air. I'm confident that most people will be happy to pay for/watch Discovery, History, TLC type stuff.
Just show me the numbers that state even a "simple" majority (51%) are in agreement with you, we will talk. "Me and my friends" isn't going to cut it.

In addition, you know, if you really like the Discovery / TLC programming (and you should because a lot of it is top notch), you can always just buy the DVD/Blu-Rays when they are released. I have the complete Planet Earth Blu-Ray set (actually I have the BBC release) and I have been buying the Discovery Atlas series on HD-DVD and Blu-Ray when they are on sale. I also plan on getting "When We Left The Earth" as well to. You can see all the programming you like without even subscribing to Cable or Satellite.



mahermusic

join:2001-07-06
Chesterfield, NJ
·Vonage
·Comcast

said by jmallory See Profile :

Just show me the numbers that state even a "simple" majority (51%) are in agreement with you, we will talk. "Me and my friends" isn't going to cut it.
I've even turned off those channels via my TiVo, since noone even watches them.
--
1/20/09 = The final day of our Retarded Cowboy President!

jmallory

join:2005-11-02
Clawson, MI

said by mahermusic See Profile :

said by jmallory See Profile :

Just show me the numbers that state even a "simple" majority (51%) are in agreement with you, we will talk. "Me and my friends" isn't going to cut it.
I've even turned off those channels via my TiVo, since noone even watches them.
You don't even make a simple majority of DSLreports subscribers let alone Cable and Satellite subscribers. I have no doubt that there are people who don't watch sports at all on Cable and Satellite, but I believe that they are in the minority.

wentlanc
You Can't Fix Dumb..

join:2003-07-30
Maineville, OH

I don't watch them either. And if 51% do, let the other 49% of us cut that $5 - $6 from our bills.

Turning your logic against you, you don't make up a simple majority of anything either, so who are you to talk so poorly of the rest of us?

cw

Corydon
Cultivant son jardin
Premium
join:2008-02-18
Denver, CO
clubs:
·Comcast

reply to jmallory
Without solid numbers, you're both just blowing smoke.

Incidentally, the question isn't whether a majority watch sports on television, but whether they watch ESPN...a completely different question altogether.

Just browsing through what's on ESPN for the next days, I see:

- Lots of Sports Center
- World Series of Poker (this is what qualifies as sports these days?)
- "X-Games" (ditto)
- A handful of talk shows about baseball, football or a few other things
- Two out-of-market baseball games.
- One out-of-market pre-season NFL game (Saints and Cardinals).

Granted, that's taken in the doldrums of summer, but still...I'd find it hard to believe that anyone who's not a pretty hardcore sports fan would get all that worked up about what they have on. Certainly nothing that a combination of local news and sports coverage plus talk radio doesn't cover at least as well and for free.
--
"Think for yourselves and let others enjoy the privilege to do so too."

jmallory

join:2005-11-02
Clawson, MI

reply to wentlanc
said by wentlanc See Profile :

I don't watch them either. And if 51% do, let the other 49% of us cut that $5 - $6 from our bills.

Turning your logic against you, you don't make up a simple majority of anything either, so who are you to talk so poorly of the rest of us?

cw
Wasn't putting anyone down...all I am saying is that if the majority of people expect things to be a certain way (like having ESPN, ESPN2, and FSN as part of basic service) then that is the way it is going to be.

jmallory

join:2005-11-02
Clawson, MI


1 edit
reply to Corydon
said by Corydon See Profile :

Without solid numbers, you're both just blowing smoke.

Incidentally, the question isn't whether a majority watch sports on television, but whether they watch ESPN...a completely different question altogether.

Just browsing through what's on ESPN for the next days, I see:

- Lots of Sports Center
- World Series of Poker (this is what qualifies as sports these days?)
- "X-Games" (ditto)
- A handful of talk shows about baseball, football or a few other things
- Two out-of-market baseball games.
- One out-of-market pre-season NFL game (Saints and Cardinals).

Granted, that's taken in the doldrums of summer, but still...I'd find it hard to believe that anyone who's not a pretty hardcore sports fan would get all that worked up about what they have on. Certainly nothing that a combination of local news and sports coverage plus talk radio doesn't cover at least as well and for free.
I have never argued that people watch a lot of ESPN, that isn't the point. The point is that if you started a Satellite TV package today and you did market research and you asked people what channels that people wanted to be part of your "basic" package (let's say 40 channels), I would think most knowledgeable people would say that the majority of them would have ESPN, ESPN2, and their RSN in that list somewhere.

I'm not saying a lot of people regularly watch it, I am not saying it is worth what ESPN is charging for it, I am just saying that most people expect it to be part of the basic programming package.


Dogfather
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Laguna Hills, CA
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Horsecrap...if ESPN was backed out and the price of the package dropped as a result, of course people would like it. People pay $14/mo for HBO, and sports fans who want to watch Australian Dick Wrestling, World's Strongest Man and endless Poker reruns can fork over $10 for ESPN.

jmallory

join:2005-11-02
Clawson, MI

said by Dogfather See Profile :

Horsecrap...if ESPN was backed out and the price of the package dropped as a result, of course people would like it. People pay $14/mo for HBO, and sports fans who want to watch Australian Dick Wrestling, World's Strongest Man and endless Poker reruns can fork over $10 for ESPN.
Like I said, I would like to see you market that unless you are going to force every provider to do it and to divide up their tiers in the exact same manner.


Dogfather
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2 edits
I would go with your logic if ESPN regularly had a lot of events that got big ratings but they don't. Some weeks they have zero shows or events in the top 20. The Deuce, ESPN News and Classic are a complete joke. They should gather of all the sports channels, Fox, ESPN, YES, and put it all on it's own tier because they represent a significant amount of the cable bill (according to providers).

But I do agree, we need a la carte. Then let ESPN compete for business rather than relying on ABC-Disney channel extortion and channel welfare.

Austinloop

join:2001-08-19
Austin, TX
reply to jmallory
I don't watch ESPN and their ilk/spawn and I am on DSLreports and have Dish, so there!


uid1307457
Premium
join:2005-12-30
Tempe, AZ

1 edit
reply to jmallory
...


uid1307457
Premium
join:2005-12-30
Tempe, AZ
·Qwest.net
·Convergent Interne..
·DIRECTV

reply to jmallory
said by jmallory See Profile :

said by mahermusic See Profile :

said by jmallory See Profile :

Just show me the numbers that state even a "simple" majority (51%) are in agreement with you, we will talk. "Me and my friends" isn't going to cut it.
I've even turned off those channels via my TiVo, since noone even watches them.
You don't even make a simple majority of DSLreports subscribers let alone Cable and Satellite subscribers. I have no doubt that there are people who don't watch sports at all on Cable and Satellite, but I believe that they are in the minority.


quote:
USA Network wrapped up 2006 as the most-watched ad-supported cable channel, averaging 2.63 million total viewers in prime time over the course of the year, an increase of 13 percent versus 2005.

According to Nielsen Media Research data, USA also beat all comers in the
core demos, averaging 1.18 million adults 18-49 (an 11 percent increase over 2005) and 1.19 million adults 25-54 (a 9 percent year-to-year hike), breaking TNT's four-year winning streak among the two categories. USA also notched the best number with adults 18-34 (537,000, up 15 percent versus last year).

In the total cable universe, non-ad-supported Disney closed out the year at number two, averaging 2.54 million viewers in prime, a 20 percent jump from its 2005 performance. Disney claimed 12 of the year's top 100 programs of 2006, reaching its apogee on Aug. 25 with its original movie The Cheetah Girls 2, which debuted to 8.12 million viewers between 8 p.m. and 10 p.m.

Among ad-supported nets, TNT finished on the heels of rival USA, averaging 2.38 million viewers in prime, a dip of 7 percent from the number it posted in 2005. The Turner net also took second among adults 18-49 (1.07 million, down 8 percent) and adults 25-54 (1.14 million, down 8 percent)

i dont see espn here:

»articles.latimes.com/2008/mar/26···et-usa26
quote:
USA’s view from the top

The reinvented cable network is No. 1 thanks to its president and a few quirky characters.

By Matea Gold
March 26, 2008 in print edition E-1

NEW YORK – When USA Network holds its annual upfront presentation here this evening to pitch advertisers on upcoming programming, the cable channel won’t just be spotlighting its new development slate.

Also on display: the triumphant four-year tenure of its president, Bonnie Hammer, who helped USA regain basic cable’s top perch.

The channel brought in nearly $700 million in profit last year, an impressive amount even compared with the broadcast networks, including NBC, its corporate sibling, which made about $300 million. USA’s success has helped lift Hammer’s fortunes as well. On Monday, NBC Universal announced it was expanding her domain by giving her oversight of a new cable studio split off from Universal Media Studios and putting her in charge of “emerging” cable channels such as Chiller and Sleuth.

The only thing surprising about Hammer’s new responsibilities is that she didn’t get them sooner. Since the television veteran took over USA in 2004, it has shaken off its reputation for stale programming and reinvigorated a graying audience with younger viewers.

By wooing World Wrestling Entertainment back to the channel and promoting the likes of Tony Shalhoub’s obsessive-compulsive detective Adrian Monk as part of its “Characters Welcome” brand, USA reclaimed the top spot in prime time on ad-supported cable in 2006 for the first time in six years. Last year, the channel beat its competitors again with a record average of 2.7 million viewers.

So far this quarter, USA’s audience is up 7% over the same period last year to nearly 3 million viewers, putting it ahead of the broadcast network the CW for the first time.

it is you that should be proving to us that more people watch ESPN because we have plenty of proof that is not true

jmallory

join:2005-11-02
Clawson, MI

reply to Dogfather
said by Dogfather See Profile :

I would go with your logic if ESPN regularly had a lot of events that got big ratings but they don't. Some weeks they have zero shows or events in the top 20. The Deuce, ESPN News and Classic are a complete joke. They should gather of all the sports channels, Fox, ESPN, YES, and put it all on it's own tier because they represent a significant amount of the cable bill (according to providers).

But I do agree, we need a la carte. Then let ESPN compete for business rather than relying on ABC-Disney channel extortion and channel welfare.
Your not getting what I am saying at all.

Here are my points ...

1.) The "AVERAGE" consumer expects ESPN, ESPN2, and their local RSN(s) in the basic subscription package. Not offering it would put your system at a distinct disadvantage over your competitors. Back in Dish was getting started Charlie swore he would never offer porn (playboy, etc) on his system. Well, turns out, people who subscribe to Playboy also subscribe to premium channels, sports packages, and pay-per-view and if Charley wanted anything more than a lot of low-margin basic channel only subscribers he needed to add porn to his system. Charlie, also tried to apply pressure on the RSNs to keep increases small and booted them off the systems for awhile. All that accomplished was lighting up the Echostar switchboard with people looking to complain and/or cancel their service. In each case, Charlie had to step off his high horse and do what was right for his business. Lesson Learned.

2.) It is not the ratings per se, it is the demographics that make the sports channels lucrative. If I was an advertiser I would rather have 100,000 viewers that actually purchase things than 1 million who don't.

3.) We all pay for channels we don't want. That is how this business works for better or worse. Unfortunately, nothing short of regulation or mass consumer revolt is going to change this model so unless you are going to vote in a liberal government I don't think regulation will be coming nor does it look like consumers will revolt either. Most people may not be happy with this arrangement but accept it.

4.) If this arrangement is not agreeable to you then simply cancel the service and tell them and any provider that tries to set you up that you will not be subscribing until your conditions are met. Cable / Satellite isn't a necessity. In fact, you mentioned that you are a big Discovery Networks fan, so why not just cancel the cable / sat service and take that $600 bucks a year or so and purchase Discovery DVD / Blu-rays with it. Much better picture and sound quality than you will get from Cable or Satellite and hey all your money goes directly to them and none of it goes to ESPN, FSN, or any other network you don't like. A much more effective way of showing the people you like their programming and as a side benefit every business related article on DLSreports doesn't turn into an ala carte argument....hey everybody wins!


DishItOut

@rr.com

reply to jmallory
said by jmallory See Profile :

said by wentlanc See Profile :

I don't watch them either. And if 51% do, let the other 49% of us cut that $5 - $6 from our bills.

Turning your logic against you, you don't make up a simple majority of anything either, so who are you to talk so poorly of the rest of us?

cw
Wasn't putting anyone down...all I am saying is that if the majority of people expect things to be a certain way (like having ESPN, ESPN2, and FSN as part of basic service) then that is the way it is going to be.
Enabling ala-carte would go a long way to disprove the notion that "a majority" want ESPN.

Instead, we are cleverly forced to buy 2nd or 3rd tiers to access ONE channel. Whether that's LifeTimeMovies or Travel or Golf or FNC is immaterial, it is a form of extortion. I refuse to pay $60 a month for one channel, so we do without.
Most of my peers do likewise - Netflix, Blockbuster, RedBox, the library, rabbit ears, radio and YouTube fill void.


Dogfather
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2 edits
reply to jmallory
The ratings don't indicate that the "average" consumer gives two squirts of piss about ESPN or RSNs. Their ratings are horrible.

And the difference is these sports channels are very expensive compared to other channels that suck.

Again we see the take it or leave it attitude as if I'm not allowed to be critical of Dish Network's policies that are obviously resulting in lost subscribers and I would guess it's over price.

ESPN sucks ass and that sucking is clearly reflected by their horrible ratings. These crap sports channels, being as expensive as they are should be treated like other overpriced programing (eg HBO). Basic cable subs shouldn't be subsidizing your sports habit to the tune of a big chunk of their cable bill.


Dogfather
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reply to uid1307457
There are some rare events like Home Run Derby that can get a decent rating M 18-24, M 25-54 but that programming is so rare as to not justify the extortion pricing ABC charges MSOs and DBS for the channels. Perhaps if ESPN didn't get the huge channel welfare checks, they would have to improve their programming lineup.


Cheese
Premium
join:2003-10-26
Naples, FL
clubs:
reply to jmallory
No sports channels here either...I don't really care for them TBH
-
Forums » Satellite TV Sees First Quarterly Subscriber Loss EverWeak economy and... »
« Cable is catching on  
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