Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
1 edit | reply to daveinpoway
Re: [TWC] router connected, intermittent connections
I wouldn't like to have listen to a noisy fan either if I was trying to sleep so I can see why you would turn it off in that case.
It is not the router. It is an IP address conflict. That will likely occur if you turn off one computer and don't turn off the other. It doesn't matter which brand of router. The ONLY surefire way to fix an IP address conflict on the network is to restart all machines after unplugging the router and modem, waiting several minutes, shutting down all computers. Then cold boot all computers and plugin the modem and then the router. You have to boot the computers BEFORE plugging in the modem and router. This forces the router to issue all new IP addresses and there will be no conflicts because all computers are running. That doesn't work though with virtual machines if the IP address conflict is with one of those and one of the physical machines. Usually in the case of IP address conflicts involving virtual machines it works itself out with a ipconfig release/renew or shutting down the virtual machine and restarting it, etc.
I never had an IP address conflict until my wall socket where the UPS that services the XP machine blew out suddenly. I had the XP machine turned off until the electrician could get out here. The 98SE machine is plugged into a power strip that plugs into another socket. So, it continued to run during this time. When I was able to use the bad socket again and booted up the XP computer, I immediately got a message in the systray that I had an IP address conflict on the network and that would cause slow downs on both computers, lockups, etc. Both physical machines had the same IP address. I tried IP release/renew on the XP computer and that didn't resolve it. I went to the 98SE computer and tried the same and that computer, after a very long pause, announced that the DHCP server (in the router) was unreachable and it then issued an IP address beginning with .69.
As for the Master Browser, there must be a Master Browser on any local network and there cannot be more than one. If you have a 98SE machine on the network you will likely have Master Browser conflicts especially if there is also an IP address conflict. I also have an XP Pro SP1 virtual computer that likes to declare itself the Master Browser, but usually it is the 98SE machine that insists it is the master browser for the network and when a machine broadcasts that it is the master browser when another machine (usually my XP Pro host machine) has been acting as the master browser then that forces either the current master browser to stop or an election to be forced. During each IP address conflict that I have had, I have seen errors in the Event Viewer for the XP host machine indicating that the Master Browser has stopped and an election is being forced due to the 98SE computer announcing that it is the master browser or the XP Pro virtual machine making the same announcement when it had the IP address conflict with the host XP machine. This announcement occurs once every hour in Event Viewer until the IP address conflict is resolved. I also have Master Browser conflicts even when there is no IP address conflict and that is probably because of the inherent difficulties of running a physicial machine running 98SE on the same network with a physical machine running XP. I've had the Master Browser conflicts for five years now but only recently started having the IP address conflicts.
»support.microsoft.com/kb/188001
»support.microsoft.com/kb/135404
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"The same ferocity that our founders devoted to protect the freedom and independence of the press is now appropriate for our defense of the freedom of the internet. The stakes are the same: the survival of our Republic". Al Gore, The Assault on Reason |
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attache
@sbcglobal.net
| reply to MacLeech
Thanks for responding. I only wished it were that easy. I spent 6 hours trying to get a friend's wireless connection to work wuth no luck. The DHCP on the router is currently enabled and she is able to go online, wired to the router. She prefers the convenience of wireless access. You think resetting the router would help? |
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MacLeech
The one and only
Premium
join:2001-07-14
SoCal
4 edits | reply to Mele20
said by Mele20  :It is not the router. It is an IP address conflict. That will likely occur if you turn off one computer and don't turn off the other. It doesn't matter which brand of router. The DHCP server in the router is what controls which IP addresses are issued to which computers. The computer merely sends a request, the DHCP server decides if that request is valid and should NEVER issue the same IP to more than one active machine. In fact, many DHCP servers (like mine) will ping an IP it may issue to verify it is not in use.
Personally, I turn my computers on and off at will, have leave and join the network as needed (wirelessly), and I NEVER have had a IP conflict. Then again, my clients IPs are reserved on the DHCP server and use a different part of the subnet so the only ones that get IPs randomly assigned by the DHCP server are "visiting" computers. The known clients on my network always get the same IP based on their MAC address.
The only time I've seen address conflicts otherwise is when someone "static's" their IP from the subnet used by the DHCP server and blocks Ping responses or otherwise circumvents the proper operation of the DHCP protocol.
As far as needing a Master Browser... reading through your links it seems it's only needed if you're running NetBIOS (I'm not). It would also seem if this had issues it would only affect resources shared using NetBIOS, not internet connections. |
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MacLeech
The one and only
Premium
join:2001-07-14
SoCal
| reply to attache
said by attache :
Thanks for responding. I only wished it were that easy. I spent 6 hours trying to get a friend's wireless connection to work wuth no luck. The DHCP on the router is currently enabled and she is able to go online, wired to the router. She prefers the convenience of wireless access. You think resetting the router would help?
Sounds like strictly a wireless issue.
Does the laptop see the wireless network broadcast from the router? Are they both using the same version of 802.11 (A,B,G,N, etc)? Are they both using the same security type? (WPA, WPA2, WAP, etc)? |
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daveinpoway
Premium
join:2006-07-03
Poway, CA
| reply to Mele20
Regarding the problems you have had with IP address conflicts, I can't recall all of the details, but didn't you have some sort of issue when installing a firmware update into your Linksys router (resulting in your not being able to access the router's setup menu), and you didn't want to reset the router because you would not be able to locate the firmware again?
As I recall, you used some sort of beta or non-Linksys firmware. Is it possible the addressing issues you have had are caused by either the firmware itself or the fact that the installation wasn't 100% correct? If the firmware worked properly, I assume Linksys would have released it as an approved update. If they never released this version to the public, perhaps it had various problems.
Obviously, if the state of your router is non-typical, your experiences will not be applicable to others.
If I am wrong on the details of what your router situation is, please correct me. |
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Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
| reply to MacLeech
I use NETBIOS and all computers on the network are shared fully with each other so, seems to me, that there would be issues with the master browser if there are IP conflicts. There are also master browser conflicts even when there are no IP address conflicts IF one of the computers on a network is running 98SE. There are several Microsoft articles about the issues with 98SE computer on a network with XP computers and the master browser conflict is one of the known issues. I actually sort of like seeing the issue in XP Event Viewer. I, like most Americans tend to root for the underdog, and in this situation 98SE wins everytime and that is sort of neat. My old 98SE computer is the best computer I've had and it still works. I can't say that about any computers made by Dell since about 2001 when Dell fired all their engineers.
I don't block ping. I don't "static" my IP addresses. I don't even know how to do that. I let the router handle DHCP and Linksy routers are notorious for doing a poor job in this area. I have had to endure 1000's of errors in Event Viewer for five years now regarding DHCP. But that is a widely known issue in particular with wired Linksy routers. Just go to the Linksy forum and you'll see what I mean. The main selling router at our local Wal-Mart is the wired Linksy router I have ...one version newer than mine and it is even worse than my version for how it handles DHCP. Supposedly, the wireless Linksys don't have so many DHCP problems and the errors in Event Viewer disappear if you get one of those routers...at that is what others who have replaced the router I have with a Linksy wireless say.
I haven't had anymore ip address conflicts. If I start getting them all the time, then would be the time to consider replacing this router. Otherwise, I will continue to use it. I know folks who have used earlier versions of this particular Linksy router for eight years or more. Mine won't be five years old until the middle of November so it should have quite a bit of life left in it. I don't need a wireless one so I don't see a reason to replace this one yet. Besides, if you Google the issue you'll see that IP address conflicts are widespread and caused by many different things...usually puzzling and not easy to resolve. Buying a new router in no way means one will not ever have IP address conflicts again especially if there is a 98SE computer on the network! Those who never experience these probably do not have a 98SE computer on the network.
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"The same ferocity that our founders devoted to protect the freedom and independence of the press is now appropriate for our defense of the freedom of the internet. The stakes are the same: the survival of our Republic". Al Gore, The Assault on Reason |
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Crakbarry
@opera-mini.net | Have you ever tried one of the 3rd party firmwares available for some linksys routers? They replace the stock DHCP server with a much more configurable one |
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Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
| reply to daveinpoway
said by daveinpoway :Regarding the problems you have had with IP address conflicts, I can't recall all of the details, but didn't you have some sort of issue when installing a firmware update into your Linksys router (resulting in your not being able to access the router's setup menu), and you didn't want to reset the router because you would not be able to locate the firmware again? As I recall, you used some sort of beta or non-Linksys firmware. Is it possible the addressing issues you have had are caused by either the firmware itself or the fact that the installation wasn't 100% correct? If the firmware worked properly, I assume Linksys would have released it as an approved update. If they never released this version to the public, perhaps it had various problems. Obviously, if the state of your router is non-typical, your experiences will not be applicable to others. If I am wrong on the details of what your router situation is, please correct me. Your details are off a bit in a significant way. First of all, almost EVERYONE uses beta firmware on these Linksy routers. You will find proof of that in our Linksy forum, Linksy's own forums and independent Linksy forums that are well regarded. The reason is because the routers generally work for up to 7 to 9 years but Linksy stops issuing any new firmware about ONE YEAR after the router becomes available for purchase. Linksy's official position is that they do not support any router more than one year old. That was NOT the case when I bought this router. At that time Cisco had not swallowed Linsky and I bought a Linsky router, over other brands, solely because of Linksy's great reputation for outstanding support. That all changed gradually after Cisco acquired them.
The last official Linksy firmware for this router was issued after OVER 10000 POSTS in a historic thread in our Linksy forum here begging Linksy to fix the horrible problems in this very popular router's firmware from version 1-3 (I have ver. 3). Most of us owners credit our forum for finally getting Linksy to issue the firmware upgrade which did fix the really bad problems in ver 1 and 2 of the router and fixed some other problems but left many unfixed. Ver 3 had fewer problems historically but the firmware upgrade did help some of its problems and did not touch others.
Come early 2005 and I began having a lot of problems with beta testing Ping Plotter Pro which I had done from its original inception. I immediately had severe problems which if I bypassed the router disappeared. Pete Ness had me do several things which helped but not much. He then purchased the same router and was able to determine the problem. He also scoured the internet (after calling Linksy ...now Cisco.. and explaining the problem and having Linksy tell him to blow off as that router was now two years old) firmware that would fix the problem with Ping Plotter Pro beta. I flashed the firmware and viola! no more problem. I called Linksy and reported everything and asked if they planned to make the beta firmware official so all users would have it and they also told me to blow off.
Since then there has been one more beta version of the firmware which is the version I currently use. The first beta that Pete found was and still is on the Linksy FTP European server (I think...I haven't checked in 6 months or so) but has never been on the USA server. When I asked them why in an email to support, I was told that USA folks were computer challenged and didn't need any advancements for their router and that USA folks would not be using Ping Plotter Pro! (Can you believe that)?! Linksy used to send beta firmware to anyone who would call or email and demonstrate why they needed it but I think they stopped that as I was promised a more recent beta than what I have and then it wasn't sent and each time I would contact Linksy they would claim they sent it to me and would say they would send it again but I never got it and I used one of my ISP addresses where there should have been no problems with receiving it.
At any rate, I am using the last publicly posted, at a Linksy forum, firmware for this router. It is from 2005. This router has a known bug (but I didn't know about it) wherein if you enable UPnP in the router interface you must immediately thereafter type your password TWICE. The router interface does NOT prompt you to type your password even once much less twice so most users don't type it. I didn't. When I went to get into the router's interface the next time it said I typed an incorrect password. I knew it was the correct one. I typed it repeatedly and was blocked each time. I googled this and went to Linksy forums here, at Linksy and elsewhere and learned along with a few others this had just happened to also, that this was a bug known to Linksy from the time they first sold this router. If the user failed to type their password twice after making the change, even though there was no prompt, that the password would be reset to a RANDOM one! Linksy refused to fix the bug or even issue some sort of warning to users about it. I was told various passwords that might work. None worked. I was told that if none of them worked that then I would have to reset the router to factory defaults thus losing the current firmware in order to have the password reset to the factory default.
When this happened, I didn't think I had a copy of the beta firmware I use on the computer. I looked and didn't see it. I also Googled and didn't see it. So, I didn't want to reset the router. Since then I have found a copy of it on my hard drive and I found the post at »www.linksysinfo.org/index.php where it was posted years ago. I still have been reluctant to reset the router.
So, my router was properly flashed with the last beta firmware issued by Linksy for this version of this router. That is not the problem nor is the fact that I am using beta firmware the problem. Most folks (who are at all knowledgeable about computers) who have these routers use beta firmware because Linksy refuses to fix glaring problems in the official firmware. They have stated to me that they expect us to buy new routers every year or two. So, they are playing hardball and I'm not playing. I certainly should be able to use Ping Plotter Pro with this router and for Linksy to blow off this problrm as they did says volumes about them since Cisco swallowed them.
Anyhow, the problem may have to do with Linksy wired routers handling DHCP poorly. That is a known issue...of course, I didn't know about it when I bought it. It was my first router and I researched as best I could and this one was rated highly mostly because Linksy was not yet a part of Cisco and had great support so I bought it because there was supposed to be great support.
IP address conflicts have many causes and most have nothing to do with the router per se.
As for Linksy routers, the best ones currently are those that can take third party firmware like Tomato because third party firmware is kept up to date and bugs are fixed. I was reading recently though that Linksy has moved to stop/make more difficult this practice in their latest versions. 
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"The same ferocity that our founders devoted to protect the freedom and independence of the press is now appropriate for our defense of the freedom of the internet. The stakes are the same: the survival of our Republic". Al Gore, The Assault on Reason |
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Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
| reply to Crakbarry
said by Crakbarry :
Have you ever tried one of the 3rd party firmwares available for some linksys routers? They replace the stock DHCP server with a much more configurable one
Yeah, I know about Tomato, etc. but this is an older wired Linksy router. No third party firmware. Plus, I read that in the most recent of the wireless Linksy routers which can use TPC firmware that Linksy has moved to cut that ability off or limit it a lot which is a shame.
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"The same ferocity that our founders devoted to protect the freedom and independence of the press is now appropriate for our defense of the freedom of the internet. The stakes are the same: the survival of our Republic". Al Gore, The Assault on Reason |
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hobgoblin
Sortof Agoblin
Premium
join:2001-11-25
Orchard Park, NY
clubs: | You know less than 50 bucks for a new router aint a bad investment.
Hob |
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daveinpoway
Premium
join:2006-07-03
Poway, CA
| I agree! If there are so many problems with Linksys routers doing a poor job with DHCP, just get something else. To me, at least, eliminating the hassles would be worth more than $50. Life is complicated enough already; no need to make it more complicated by having to put up with buggy tech products.
Last year, I tried out 2 Linksys routers. One had a throughput of around 8 Mbps (even though it had Gigabit Ethernet ports), unless you disabled pretty much all of the features- that one went back right away! A different model worked OK for a couple of weeks, but, I found that I couldn't get into the administrative setup pages any more without resetting the router. Back to the store with that one, also! I simply have no patience for stuff like this. |
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Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
| Yeah, but you don't live on an island in the middle of the Pacific ocean. Plus, the island is not Oahu. There is very little choice in routers in the two stores that sell them here. The one I have is sold in the stores (later version than mine..but it wasn't sold in the stores here when I bought it). If I order on the net, there is the problem of high shipping charges and impossibility of returning, if a problem, without my paying high shipping charges back. I would be out shipping both ways. I got this router from Amazon simply because then they had it on free shipping even to Hawaii. But returning it would have meant my paying a big shipping fee and it worked fine until I noticed the DHCP errors in Event Viewer and I wasn't sure for a long time what was causing those errors.
It is much more of a hassle to buy a new one than it is to live with this one's problems until the problems get worse than they are presently. The modem tripped off line again a couple of hours ago. I suspect that is the router causing it as the modem's signal levels are ok. It trips off line now about 3-4 times a week and that is irritating because I usually have virtual machines running that have to be shut down before I can shut down the host and reboot the modem, router and host computer. Tonite, when it happened I just switched to dialup for awhile as I didn't want to hassle right then with the rigamarole required to fix it. If the tripping off line gets to be a daily thing and is caused by the router then I will replace it. In the past, when I have thought the router was the problem, every time I have been wrong and it was a problem that Oceanic needed to fix. I just don't want to have to use just this one computer hooked directly to the modem for a week to see if it trips off line. I will wait for the problem to get worse so it can be diagnosed faster.
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"The same ferocity that our founders devoted to protect the freedom and independence of the press is now appropriate for our defense of the freedom of the internet. The stakes are the same: the survival of our Republic". Al Gore, The Assault on Reason |
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daveinpoway
Premium
join:2006-07-03
Poway, CA | You have mentioned that Linksys routers have various issues; don't any of the stores in your area carry D-Link or Netgear? |
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MacLeech
The one and only
Premium
join:2001-07-14
SoCal
1 edit | reply to Mele20
Since you seem to have plenty of PCs available and don't mind leaving them on 24/7, have you ever thought about building a firewall/router out of one using PFsense, Smoothwall, or one of the other many Linux distos created for such an application?
You may have enough PC leftovers laying around to build one without buying anything. |
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attache
@sbcglobal.net
| reply to MacLeech
Yes to all your questions. In fact, this afternoon I had her reset her router and walked her thru with the router configuration and her lappy. Connection worked and she was so happy. At 9:30pm, she called to say that she could no longer access the internet. No problemm accessing the router though and she is getting an address from the router. |
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hobgoblin
Sortof Agoblin
Premium
join:2001-11-25
Orchard Park, NY
clubs:
| reply to MacLeech
said by MacLeech :You may have enough PC leftovers laying around to build one without buying anything. An incredible feat considering the cost of shipping a master browser to the islands.
Hob
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"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."
- Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
| said by hobgoblin :said by MacLeech :You may have enough PC leftovers laying around to build one without buying anything. An incredible feat considering the cost of shipping a master browser to the islands. Hob Especially since all but two of the computers are VIRTUAL. (I think MacLeech missed that part). 
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"The same ferocity that our founders devoted to protect the freedom and independence of the press is now appropriate for our defense of the freedom of the internet. The stakes are the same: the survival of our Republic". Al Gore, The Assault on Reason |
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daveinpoway
Premium
join:2006-07-03
Poway, CA
| reply to attache
When she couldn't access the Internet at 9:30 PM, was this wired, wireless or both? Obviously, if a wired connection would work, this narrows things down to the wireless link. If she can't connect even with an Ethernet cable, then something else is involved.
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dbmaven
There's no shortage
Premium,Mod
join:1999-10-26
Sty in Sky
clubs: |  reply to Mele20
(topic move) [TWC] router connected, intermittent connections
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The post that was here (and all 1 followups to it), has been moved to a new topic .. »[TWC] router connected, intermittent connections |
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