Cost of running a WiSP? in Wireless Service Providers http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r20956215 en Wed, 11 Nov 2009 09:34:07 EDT Wed, 11 Nov 2009 09:34:07 EDT Re: Cost of running a WiSP? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20980061 AMD Phreak : I see. Moblie 900mhz is something that must be planned carefully. Ive worked on engineering these types of systems and it is a hell of a lot of work up front before you even start the first install. Mobile 2.4ghz or 4.9 is also an option but again a lot of planning. Motorola's motomesh is the ideal product for public safety mobile deployment but it is expensive. If the agencies can get DHS funds that will allow that much spending by all means go that route.

If you want to speak more in-depth about the police job pm me and we can talk.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20980061 Wed, 20 Aug 2008 14:21:36 EDT Re: Cost of running a WiSP? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20979056 Killa200 : My biggest thing with the police ideas is the only fixed points that i could see using with 4.9ghz would be the two police stations, the courthouse where the server is, and the county jail. The cars themselves (totaling to about 50) would need something in the 900mhz range because of their low elevation off the ground subjecting them to constant NLOS issues. How plausible in the end that would be, i can only guess... but it is a build out idea that would snag an anchor tenant along with more than likely a homeland security grant for this area.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20979056 Wed, 20 Aug 2008 11:19:51 EDT Re: Cost of running a WiSP? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20978956 AMD Phreak : I agree on keeping the core services in a centrallized, secure, and fully climate-controlled location. You don't want these things affected by anything, and it is far easier to manage one, verses many.

You should plan for the PTP links to be as fast as you can afford them to be, with as much fade margin as you can afford. to spend. I'd look at trying to get 40Mbps aggregate on each link if possible, and a fade margin of 25-30dB if possible.

The others are right in saying to route the network from the get go. I can speak from experience, that only clowns put bridged networks in to use anymore these days. Back when WISP's started, pretty much everyone went bridged. It was cheaper and easier to do (RSTP is easy to get going vs routing) so naturally it was the choice. Also switches are cheaper than routers. As networks grew, WISPs soon realized that the broadcast traffic became too much and their PTP links were saturated and all kinds of heck broke loose. This is when people starting realizing they should VLAN or route. I am of the crowd that says route.

For your public safety customers, obviously they need VPN use. You might look at even selling them a direct PTP link to your tower (4.9GHz) and then using your backbone as the carrier path to the next nearby site if it is remote enough to not be on the same tower. They should qualify to use 4.9GHz if they are a police dept so this would allow them an uncontested frequency (usually) to get to your site, and not have to be on the same AP as the other clients. Their only limitation at that point would be how much PTP throughput you have.
--
"No job is so important, and no service is so urgent that we cannot take the time to do it safely."
-- AT&T
--Safety One Tower Rescue Certified
--LLigetfa:"Wimax is like teenage sex. Everyone talks about doing it."]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20978956 Wed, 20 Aug 2008 11:01:44 EDT Re: Cost of running a WiSP? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20978523 Killa200 :
said by Chele See Profile :

Remember that you will(should) have a spare for just about every piece of hardware on the POP or at least a way to bypass any failed gear.
Yes, i totally agree with that in every aspect. Running a hosting business a while back has taught me one thing: Redundancy..... on everything.

On the server issue, so it'd be best to just budget a bigger link for the remote sites, and keep their equipment sans router at the NOC? To me, internal traffic is internal traffic, as I'm the only one controlling in the end how much i have to each site, so its no biggie to make a higher link if need be. I plan on putting a strong back haul to each tower either way as i have a couple of prospect tenants (sheriffs and police dept) that have a need for a lot of internal traffic, but not much in the ways of the internet itself.

Sorry for all the question and answer sessions guys, but i want to make absolutely sure when we get this off the ground, its all done right. There is enough poison in the water giving WiSP's in general a bad name, and i never was one to do things half way to begin with.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20978523 Wed, 20 Aug 2008 09:38:19 EDT Re: Cost of running a WiSP? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20978160 superdog :
said by Inssomniak See Profile :

Id step away from running servers at each tower, this will be a headache.. sure a router maybe, but keep DNS and radius centralized.
Word of wisdom to live by. Routers are not problem, neither are AP's. The reason is all of the moving parts and failure points. I learned a LONG time ago to keep all of your main components at one location, that way if something happens, you have only one location to travel to.
--
»www.wavecrazy.net
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20978160 Wed, 20 Aug 2008 07:55:45 EDT Re: Cost of running a WiSP? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20977192 Inssomniak :
said by Killa200 See Profile :

I had planned on putting in a small server at each tower to handle small things like backup dns for each tower and radius for each tower, as well as some caching to hopefully cut down on some of the external traffic use, while communicating back to the NOC to the main server.
Id step away from running servers at each tower, this will be a headache.. sure a router maybe, but keep DNS and radius centralized. If you are using mikrotik, it has a decent caching DNS forwarder. I run as well a central radius server at the NOC for auth. Running separate radius servers at each tower will not be fun. Use the power of Mikrotik to limit/throttle/drop/firewall traffic at your AP before it is sent out your backhauls and back to the NOC. I have RB333 and 433 boards running 30 users PPPoE with queues with lots of spare CPU power. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20977192 Tue, 19 Aug 2008 23:21:56 EDT Re: Cost of running a WiSP? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20976265 Chele :
said by Killa200 See Profile :

as just about every utility on the face of this area is horrible, including electricity.
You can make yourself a nice pure sine UPS for about $600.

said by Killa200 See Profile :

the lesser of two evils would be to have less clients breathing down my neck on an outage
Many customers will be patient(to a point) and understanding, but the impatient ones won't breathe down your neck, they will whine, bitch, moan, and complain the whole time the network is down.

Remember that you will(should) have a spare for just about every piece of hardware on the POP or at least a way to bypass any failed gear.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20976265 Tue, 19 Aug 2008 20:00:12 EDT Re: Cost of running a WiSP? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20975787 sarpkaya : If I were you I'll just put repeaters to tower, because it might be burnt with simple thunder. Nomatter what lightning protector you use, it has a chance to burn up.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20975787 Tue, 19 Aug 2008 18:11:18 EDT Re: Cost of running a WiSP? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20975753 Killa200 : I had planned on putting in a small server at each tower to handle small things like backup dns for each tower and radius for each tower, as well as some caching to hopefully cut down on some of the external traffic use, while communicating back to the NOC to the main server. Sort of gives that blanket of redundancy if something happens at the NOC servers, as just about every utility on the face of this area is horrible, including electricity.

I'd planned mostly to have FreeRadius w/mysql loaded up to handle user authentication, as well as the standard mac address list since we'd be handing out all the equipment. That way if some kiddie comes and starts spoofing mac addy's, they would still need to login to get access.

I agree with the tower setup now that i look back on it, suppose the lesser of two evils would be to have less clients breathing down my neck on an outage over the chance of multiple boards going out. Whatever router i do put in at the base though i do want to have some sort of management capabilities though, as i have major plans of pushing QoS from CPE all the way back to the NOC.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20975753 Tue, 19 Aug 2008 18:02:37 EDT Re: Cost of running a WiSP? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20975463 cmaenginsb :
said by Killa200 See Profile :

So you figure maybe drop down a model or so on the router boards and run one for each sector? I could do that, the only reason i was running one board per ring is i figured with 6 boards up there, that is 6 points of failure over two... but i guess then again if one board went down this way, we would only be taking down a partial of the ring.

Routed network? Hmm, if i was going to throw a server up on each tower anyways, i guess it would be possible to run something like vmware and load up a linux firewall / router os like ipcop or the likes. Put in a few 4 port NIC's and separate each sector into its own zone. Is that somewhere in the direction you were going by suggesting a routed network?

Also, thanks for the antenna suggestions, i'll be sure to check all those companies out.
Yes it's more possible points of failure, but it is a less complicated setup and less possibility of the radio cards interfering with each other in the enclosure.

More importantly to me is that if 1 board with 3 radios fails I have 120 customers calling me, if 1 board with 1 radio fails it's only 40 or so customers down.

As to routing, if you are going to do radius the server should be centralized at your NOC. This is a lot easier to troubleshoot. BTW what do you intend on doing with the radius server?

If it were me, I would have a dedicated multiport router at each tower. If you need throttling I would use Router OS or another *nix based O/S. If it is pure routing/switching a 3550 is cheap and gives you 24 to 48 FE ports as a Layer 3 router.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20975463 Tue, 19 Aug 2008 17:00:23 EDT Re: Cost of running a WiSP? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20974721 tx_tower : since you're already using mikrotik equipment i would go with mikrotik OS PC based router or buy the GigE routers. very simple to use and incredible functionality.

You could route each sector if you needed to go that deep, but i would vote for routing the 900 customers and the 2.4 customers seperatly and not worry about routing each individual sector.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20974721 Tue, 19 Aug 2008 14:37:08 EDT Re: Cost of running a WiSP? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20973713 Killa200 : So you figure maybe drop down a model or so on the router boards and run one for each sector? I could do that, the only reason i was running one board per ring is i figured with 6 boards up there, that is 6 points of failure over two... but i guess then again if one board went down this way, we would only be taking down a partial of the ring.

Routed network? Hmm, if i was going to throw a server up on each tower anyways, i guess it would be possible to run something like vmware and load up a linux firewall / router os like ipcop or the likes. Put in a few 4 port NIC's and separate each sector into its own zone. Is that somewhere in the direction you were going by suggesting a routed network?

Also, thanks for the antenna suggestions, i'll be sure to check all those companies out.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20973713 Tue, 19 Aug 2008 11:27:14 EDT Re: Cost of running a WiSP? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20973653 cmaenginsb : I would probably breakup the number of routerboards to radios more. IMHO I don't like combining multiple radios in a box even if the AP has the horsepower to handle it.

As to switches, I would avoid them and go straight to a routed network. I've done switched/vlan and routed and will never build another non-routed network again.

As to antennas, PacWireless is good and cheap, andrew and maxrad are better and expensive. You also have Radiowaves which is also better an expensive.
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CCNA, Comtrain Certified Tower Climber]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20973653 Tue, 19 Aug 2008 11:16:48 EDT Re: Cost of running a WiSP? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20968783 Killa200 : I am loving all the answers you guys are giving so far, and takes all things in account. This is the reason i asked here as to anywhere else. I felt after i have idled here and read pretty much every topic that has been opened in the past 4 months in this forum that i would ask a few questions of my own to see if i am heading in the right direction. Let me give you a little info about my area / ideas for deployment, and see if you guys have any suggestions.

I live in a small rural area (about 2,500 people in this city, and around 30,000 for the entire county) covering an area of approx. 316sq miles. Current broadband options for the area consist of either charter / at&t in the lucky areas, or nothing but satellite in other areas, with the majority of the area is the latter option.

As far as sites go, i have considered running two rings of sectors per tower, one at 2.4ghz and one at 900mhz. I would love to run at ~5ghz (unlicensed of licensed), but tree density in this area just at a glance puts me off from the idea. I'd like to use the upper frequency to provide clear LOS and high speed business services, while using the 900mhz band to hit the tougher links due to foliage issues or distance. I'm also looking at using the newer 3.65ghz band for back hauls to other sites or PtP lines for businesses needing a lot of bandwidth, seeing as it has a higher EIRP per being under Part 90.

Each tower's equipment lineup that i have put together so far runs about like this:

2 x Mikrotik RB600A
1 x Mikrotik RB433AH (Optional Remote AP's)
3 x Ubiquiti XR2s
3 x Ubiquiti XR9s
1 x Ubiquiti XR3s (Optional Remote AP's)
3 x 16dBi 2.4ghz 120 degree sectors
3 x 16dBi 900mhz 120 Degree sectors
1 x 20dBi Grid Antenna (Optional Remote AP's)
6 x Lengths of LMR-400 cables
6 x Coax lightning arrestors (or 7 if its a remote AP)
2 x RJ-45 Lightning arrestors (or 3 if its a remote AP)

Ive yet to pick out enclosures for the routerboards / radios as I'd want to see how much space the combination of them will take. Everything would be fed via PoE injectors in the on site building, Grounded using #6 AWG cable (radio boxes and antenna) with each ring having a separate run down the tower into a bar then into a copper strip to an earth ground. All Cat5E cable in the works would be CMXT outdoor gel filled. In each tower location i was looking to put in managed switches for the routers / back haul, and including a local server to handle radius pass offs from the radios to the main building, and perhaps some smart caching to back down on throughput.

CPE's i was looking at Nanostation 2s, with or without directional antenna depending on the install. For the 900mhz gear, i am looking at building up a radio in house since i can't find a built solution like the nanostations for the 900mhz frequency. Same regards to the grounding and ethernet cable types.

I'm not too sure who a good antenna manufacturer is quite yet, so i am open to suggestions there.

The backhaul out for the company is being worked out with charter, as they have a sonnet loop in the state that runs in the next city for their cable service, and they are working with businesses to provide symmetrical fiber to businesses in the area. T1 in this area is outrageous because our POP is about 110 miles away from here.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20968783 Mon, 18 Aug 2008 13:18:59 EDT Re: Cost of running a WiSP? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20968250 cmaenginsb :
said by sarpkaya See Profile :

What If you have 100 mbps backbone?
Why spend the money for 100 Mbps backbone when I can start with something less expensive a use that money for something more important like customer aquisition.

As to B vs G, the range is shorter with G and there's more possibility of signal interence (to a point). As to throughput, even with 30-40 customers on our 802.11b APs we offer service that is 3G not EDGE in terms of comparison.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20968250 Mon, 18 Aug 2008 11:37:33 EDT Re: Cost of running a WiSP? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20967699 Believer : First of all, if you expect this to be a business venture, hardware and bandwidth are only a piece of the puzzle. There are LOTS of little things that add up over time. For example, the following account for about 15% of our revenue:

Vehicle gas and repairs,
CC processing and bank fees,
Insurance (Health, auto, liability, life, etc),
Utilities,
Phone (cell, office, etc).

There are lots of other little expenses that probably account for another 10% but are too small to mention.

This doesn't count things like salaries, office expense, bandwidth, radios/antennas, computers, etc.

So, you'll need to add a 30% fudge factor if you are just adding up equipment and bandwidth to start. However, a start-up needs to take more than that into consideration. Are you going to need a vehicle? Tools? Ladders? Do you have enough cash to buy things in bulk?

Charles Wu posted a spreadsheet some years back that was pretty close. You punched in what you expected to make from a customer and factored in equipment cost and bandwidth with some other factors and number of installations in a year and it spit out what your expected costs would be and how long it would be until you make a profit.
--
Comtrain Certified Tower Climber]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20967699 Mon, 18 Aug 2008 09:52:42 EDT Re: Cost of running a WiSP? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20967494 petecarlson : Heres the numbers we work with:
Customer cost $350-450
This includes 200 - 300 for the CPE radio and about $150 for the install. The install cost is going to be about the same no matter what radio you use (up to a point). Once you add up the cost of your van/truck, gas, insurance, labor, and supplies such as mounts ground wire etc.

POPs are a little harder to put a fixed cost on. I would budget 10-20K for a four or six sector (360deg) Canopy POP including everything. I just ran the numbers on a Canopy 400 POP and it came in just under 20K including everything but the backhaul. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20967494 Mon, 18 Aug 2008 08:59:25 EDT Re: Cost of running a WiSP? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20967354 MicroWISP : A year ago when we were offering tiered service plans at set DL/UL speeds, I would have said that I would still only provide B for a CPE as I had no plans to offer anything to a home user faster than B capabilities - BUT... all of our plans are now speed transparent, they are all the 'same' speed and our subs get to use everything we have to offer instead of us just sitting on unused bandwidth so now if I had a 100mbps backbone I would build out making sure my APs and CPEs were G.

And also if I had 100mbps Fast Ethernet for a backbone I would be "Really Really Happy!!!" I can get 45mbps for $3100.00 per month if I want it from Level 3, but I just don't have the market for all that bandwidth.

Dave, I try to make sure we keep a 20 db sig to noise ratio minimum and 30 when I can on all CPE tp AP and always 30 db on PtP and any WDS stuff we have up so I can support G if need be. I have found if I take the time to have the best sig to noise ratios and really fine tune ACK timing and RTS settings that I can sleep very well at night with very minimal network issues. It pays to get the 'best' signal you can instead of "that's good enough, lock it down."
--
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it."]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20967354 Mon, 18 Aug 2008 07:55:22 EDT Re: Cost of running a WiSP? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20967299 sarpkaya : What If you have 100 mbps backbone?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20967299 Mon, 18 Aug 2008 07:19:30 EDT Re: Cost of running a WiSP? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20967286 superdog :
said by sarpkaya See Profile :

I will not spend my any cents to 802.11B. It is throwing money to bin.
sarpkaya See Profile, most of the time I defend you and give you the benefit of the doubt when I read any of your statements, as I try and take all of the things into account, like your use of the English language, culture and a few other differences.

This time, I must say, Please do not offer advice on a subject you really do not understand yourself. When you make statements like the one above, it is obvious to me that asking you for an answer about radios is the same as me asking my Lawyer how to pull a tooth. It is just a bad idea, and I'll bet it would be very painful in the end.

Please stop and really think your answers through. I know you are not stupid, as you can speak and read in two languages and I can only do it in one.

said by MicroWISP See Profile :

I thought the real difference in b/g was b is 11Mbit/s max throughput and g is 54Mbit/s...?
It is. It also takes higher signal level to maintain a G only network

said by MicroWISP See Profile :

I use quite a bit of b stuff out there. Why would I use a g device at a customer's house when say we only allow him throughput of 1.5Mbit/s down and 512 kbs up, and the main supply feed of that WISP may be only 3Mbit/s up/down? I just don't see why I would need a more expensive G-device here...
You really don't. Trying to use an all G network could be a bad idea in most cases. In order for you to create a stable working network that can handle not only fade margins but other types of intermittent signal issues (Phones, video cameras etc..), you need to run in all B. If you have a T1 for a backbone?, why would you need anything else?.
--
»www.wavecrazy.net
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20967286 Mon, 18 Aug 2008 07:13:43 EDT Re: Cost of running a WiSP? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20967266 sarpkaya : throughput is important thing if you are going to be nice WISP.

Another thing is, if that guy rich(I'm asking the owner of this topic)
Use N-stream 2 and use 6 sectors per transmitter.
So you will have 108x3 real throughput which makes you competative with Cable, ADSL2+.

Of course if you are wisp in a place something like desert. And planning to make your tariff like 256 kbps download/128 kbps upload. Than use it but you can't use that in big urban city.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20967266 Mon, 18 Aug 2008 06:58:06 EDT Re: Cost of running a WiSP? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20967220 MicroWISP : I thought the real difference in b/g was b is 11Mbit/s max throughput and g is 54Mbit/s...? I use quite a bit of b stuff out there. Why would I use a g device at a customer's house when say we only allow him throughput of 1.5Mbit/s down and 512 kbs up, and the main supply feed of that WISP may be only 3Mbit/s up/down? I just don't see why I would need a more expensive G-device here... Of course it is 5:00 am and I'm not awake yet so maybe I am missing something? Only reason I could see using G is just in case I ever upgrade to a bigger pipe and offer more customer bandwidth then I wouldn't have to change out a CPE.
--
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it."]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20967220 Mon, 18 Aug 2008 06:17:20 EDT Re: Cost of running a WiSP? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20967177 sarpkaya : Using 802.11b = Competition with GPRS/EDGE
Using 802.11g = Competition with UMTS, ADSL, Dial-up, etc...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20967177 Mon, 18 Aug 2008 05:33:27 EDT Re: Cost of running a WiSP? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20966885 robbin : And then ignoring it! :o]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20966885 Mon, 18 Aug 2008 01:54:27 EDT Re: Cost of running a WiSP? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20966787 Chele :
said by sarpkaya See Profile :

I will not spend my any cents to 802.11B. It is throwing money to bin. Use G or if available, use 5 ghz so it can't make any interference in Super G(40 Mhz)
Can you please tell me how G is different from B? It is a very brave of you to suggest that advise given here should be ignored, specially since you have come here looking for it several times. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20966787 Mon, 18 Aug 2008 00:59:44 EDT Re: Cost of running a WiSP? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20966398 sarpkaya : I will not spend my any cents to 802.11B. It is throwing money to bin. Use G or if available, use 5 ghz so it can't make any interference in Super G(40 Mhz)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20966398 Sun, 17 Aug 2008 22:58:04 EDT Re: Cost of running a WiSP? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20966343 John Galt :
said by sarpkaya See Profile :

If I were you I won't listen'em.
I agree...

It is clearly evident by their thousands of informed postings that these people have NO IDEA how to run a WISP, or what it costs.
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A is A]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20966343 Sun, 17 Aug 2008 22:47:56 EDT Re: Cost of running a WiSP? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20965697 sarpkaya : If I were you I won't listen'em.

Go and get Mikrotik RB433AH(3x) around 150$/pc
Buy Mikrotik RB411AH(5x) around 100$/pc
Buy R52 or(and)* R52H (15x) around 50/60$/pc
Buy outdoor case(8x or 4x**) around 20-40$/pc
Buy a surge protector 0-6 GHZ (15x) around 20-40$/pc
Cables&connectors&etc around 100-300$/pc
Buy high gained sector antenna 120 degree beamwidth(9x)(I'd prefer 5Ghz if you don't have any problems with licensing about 5 Ghz or not permitted to use) around 50-500$/pc
Buy 24 dBi 5 Ghz panel or more gainer grid antenna (5x) 3o-100$/pc
Well everything seems OK
*If the radiolink is less than 5 mile use R52 for RadioLink if it is more than use R52H.
** You can use 24 dBi Rootenna as a Outdoor housing+ antenna for radiolink.

You'll have a 3 different stations and they will communicate with each other.

All you need is an internet connection and billing+radius software.
I'd prefer you to use Ubiquiti Nanostation 5 for customers who is living closer to your transmitter(s). That is around 100$]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20965697 Sun, 17 Aug 2008 20:22:51 EDT Re: Cost of running a WiSP? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20964484 tx_tower : superdog hit it pretty much dead on. 1 thing i would like to stress is DONT install everyone that calls. You are not a utility and can choose which customers to offer service to. Ive had several "sorry no signal" installs after talking with a customer onsite. someone people just arent worth the hassle.

Also in the long run it is much better to install say a 900mhz AP, to serve customers with line if sight issues rather than mounting large masts to get over the obstacle(trees, buildings, etc.) these masts lead to higher install prices or increased costs per customer. And almost always have more issues than a simple eave mounted installation. I would go no higher than 10ft(with tripod or eave mount) in ANY situation.

On to equipment: If price point is a concern I would check out www.mikrotik.com and www.routerboard.com, backhauls/AP's/CPEs all reasonably priced and very competative on performance as well. Very robust interface that allows you to monitor in realtime.

Other than that, good luck and be careful who your let install for you. 1 bad installer can costs you thousands of dollars down the road so screen them well and make sure you doublecheck their work.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20964484 Sun, 17 Aug 2008 15:01:00 EDT Re: Cost of running a WiSP? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20961314 cmaenginsb : The biggest cost is the equipment you choose. As others have said if you go with the big names (Motorola,Trango, Alvarion) you're going to pay big money in many cases 2 times what you would with an 802.11 based setup.

Our general cost for a site (multiple APs and 1 or more backhaul) is probably 10k for mostly 802.11b APs and 15 k for a Canopy site. A per customer cost for equipment and installation ranges from $300 up to and beyond $500.
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CCNA, Comtrain Certified Tower Climber]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20961314 Sat, 16 Aug 2008 18:47:06 EDT Re: Cost of running a WiSP? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20959661 AMD Phreak : I agree with everything Superdog has said. You can save up-front costs by using vendors that are lower cost. You must do your homework though either way to ensure the spectrum is clear and uncontested or you will find yourself in a real mess.

Don't rush on the installs. Take the time to do it right the first time, and you'll have a happy customer who will refer other customers to you.

In my experience a typical install lasts from 2 to 4 hours (sometimes more) depending on where the equipment must go, the location of the utility ground (for the all important surge protector) and how complex the run is to get into the building.
--
"No job is so important, and no service is so urgent that we cannot take the time to do it safely."
-- AT&T
--Safety One Tower Rescue Certified
--LLigetfa:"Wimax is like teenage sex. Everyone talks about doing it."]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20959661 Sat, 16 Aug 2008 11:02:12 EDT Re: Cost of running a WiSP? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20959221 superdog :
said by Killa200 See Profile :

What all does it cost you for things like getting a customer up or getting an AP up in terms of equipment. I'm not really looking for the "magic number" of how much this is gonna cost me to get going.
This is a very hard question to answer, even giving you a round about figure is tough. it will depend on the platform (type of radio, frequency used and OEM of the radio) that you wish to use.

For instance, using Deliberant or Highgain radios will cost a LOT less than if you use Trango or Motorola gear. Some will tell you that using the high end gear is the only way to go, as it will save you time in the end with less repeat truck rolls and better uptime etc.

If you choose that route, you upfront costs will almost 1/3 higher if not more?. I for one do not believe that, as I have lots of standard 802.11b/g radios in the field and I have not been back to most of them since the original install. IMHO, it is all about the quality of your work when doing the install that makes the difference.

Installing radios with marginal signal level, trees in the way that could grow thicker and taller, perhaps even setting up a radio that could be running fine but yet it is actually picking up a reflected signal will all cause you grief and a truck roll in the future. These are the things that will make trouble for you, not the equipment in most cases.

When first starting out, most new WISP's have the tendency to try and install every person that calls. I remember spending days just trying to hook up one customer because I felt I had to so I could make some $$. I have cut down entire trees thinking it would improve the signal level and the only good thing that came out of that was the potential customer now had a tree removed for free that otherwise would have cost him $500 to have removed.

Getting back to the original topic (Sorry! :D ), your costs will depend on what I mentioned in the first paragraph. There could be a few thousand $$ difference depending on what route you take. Rooftops could cost you less than erecting a 100ft tower, but perhaps you don't have any roofs to use?, and in that case, you need to add in the tower costs.

In the area you live in, what will the majority of the installs need?. I guess what I mean is, do most of the houses have chimneys and require satellite mounts or can you get away with simple under the eaves mounting?. This will affect your costs. It does appear that you have thought about all of this though, as you have figured your costs all the way down to the tape you use.

It costs me about $120 on the low end to $220 on the high end to install a customer. The difference being the gear needed to complete the link. I never factor my time into any of this, as I just consider it an investment to my future. If you have to pay an employee or sub-contractor, you will need to add this cost into your figures also and this will drive up the install cost considerably.

I guess I am throwing all of this out there to try and help you understand that costs will vary so much from area to area and install to install that it is really impossible to give any concrete or even non-magical # per install. If I were a better book keeper, I could go back and look at all of the installs I did in 2007 and average them out?. That # would be a little closer to what you are looking for perhaps?.
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]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20959221 Sat, 16 Aug 2008 07:59:13 EDT Re: Cost of running a WiSP? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20957774 AMD Phreak : hahahaha]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20957774 Fri, 15 Aug 2008 21:03:22 EDT Re: Cost of running a WiSP? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20957336 John Galt :
said by sarpkaya See Profile :

You may need some special license for TN state.
Probably the same fee for setting up a still.

J/K :p

;)
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A is A]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20957336 Fri, 15 Aug 2008 19:23:50 EDT Re: Cost of running a WiSP? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20956865 sarpkaya : 15K $ is only for license + taxes + setting company in Turkey. May be it is more than 15K $. So make a research about that. You may need some special license for TN state.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20956865 Fri, 15 Aug 2008 17:41:20 EDT Re: Cost of running a WiSP? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20956282 AMD Phreak : Well before management permits me to construct a new site i have to do all of the preliminary engineering and planning. Depending on how much site construction must be done (towers or rooftops) and if a shelter must be constructed or retrofitted with power ac and grounding, and how many sectors and backhauls are required the price varies. I'd guess on average to do things right is about 15K or so.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20956282 Fri, 15 Aug 2008 15:39:47 EDT Cost of running a WiSP? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20956215 Killa200 : I figured that i would ask this question for me any others looking to get involved in a project like this. What all does it cost you for things like getting a customer up or getting an AP up in terms of equipment. I'm not really looking for the "magic number" of how much this is gonna cost me to get going.

Ive been running through things all the way down to cost per feet of ground wire, rubber tape for n connectors, and little things like this. I figured i would ask in here to see if i am hitting close to the ballpark with my numbers.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20956215 Fri, 15 Aug 2008 15:26:17 EDT