Phorkster
Premium
join:2004-06-27
Windsor, ON | reply to Ravage_D
Re: [Rant] Torrents? ..Who needs them..
Suckers? I guess if I find everything I need in one place and not have to worry about Seeders and private invites to 3r33t sites, then call me a sucker.
I'm not aware of this learning curve... |
|
Ravage_D
join:2003-03-28
Kingston, ON
 ·Primus Telecommuni..
 ·Cogeco Voip
| reply to mishkin8
Usenet is for suckers and has a learning curve?
Well, if you think there's a learning curve to them, then you clearly don't understand how to use them...and shouldn't be saying they're for suckers because that's ignorant!
Anyway, as I said before, there are tons of unique situations where people find torrents great (Private trackers/ISPs that don't throttle etc. etc.) but my target audience was the average Canadian who is throttled to hell by Rogers/Bell
Never thought the thread would get this big! There's been some great debate :P |
|
Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
·Colbanet
| said by Ravage_D  :Well, if you think there's a learning curve to them, then you clearly don't understand how to use them... Now, take a minute and think about what you just said... You just agreed with him. |
|
fuckusenet
@videotron.net
1 edit | reply to Stewy
Usenet doesn't get their shit first. sites like SCT, SCC, FTN do.
pre=the time it takes for the release to get uploaded to the torrent site from the scene ftp server. |
|
fuckusenety
@videotron.net | I found that image on imageshack.us
im on that site aswell. its fast as fuck. I always max out ym 100Mbit connection |
|
Ravage_D
join:2003-03-28
Kingston, ON
·Primus Telecommuni..
·Cogeco Voip
| reply to Ravage_D
LOL  I should have expected a reply from you guspaz.
Perhaps I should have said, if you think there's a learning curve then you've been mis-informed?
I guess it's all just up to interpretation. Learning curve and understanding aren't necessarily the same thing although they are related.
You can understand how to drive a car but that doesn't make you a Nascar driver.
That's my take on it which could differ from others. Oh well, I'll clarify:
What I meant was merely that there's this sort of thought about usenet that it's complex and difficult to use (hence, steep learning curve). This is false because if you're pointed at the right site or have the right program, it's just as easy as using torrents. Admittedly there might be an extra step or two in there (entering your usenet server and connecting to it) but hey..it's sure a lot easier than successfully circumventing some form of throttling.
And to point people: nzbmatrix.com with either alt.binz or newsleecher :P
But enough of useless word wars -- this has nothing to do with the topic and I wont entertain it any further. |
|
Phorkster
Premium
join:2004-06-27
Windsor, ON
 ·Cogeco Cable
·Cogeco Voip
| reply to fuckusenet
Err, whats your point? According to a quick search of Usenet, The Dark Knight DVDSCR was posted 5 days ago, PrisonBreak S04E01 was 6 days ago..
So lets look at the scorecard:
Need Seeders:
Usenet 1 Torrent 0
Throttled:
Usenet 2 Torrent 0
PrivateTracker Access To Get The Latest And Best:
Usenet 3 Torrent 0
I could go on, but does it really matter? You are going to use what your going to use. |
|
Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
·Colbanet
| reply to Phorkster
Re: [Rant] Torrents? ..Who needs them..
said by Phorkster :Err, whats your point? According to a quick search of Usenet, The Dark Knight DVDSCR was posted 5 days ago, PrisonBreak S04E01 was 6 days ago.. So lets look at the scorecard: Need Seeders: Usenet 1 Torrent 0 Throttled: Usenet 2 Torrent 0 PrivateTracker Access To Get The Latest And Best: Usenet 3 Torrent 0 I could go on, but does it really matter? You are going to use what your going to use. Have to spend at least $1:
Usenet 3 Torrent 1
Have to spend at least $2:
Usenet 3 Torrent 2
Have to spend at least $3:
Usenet 3 Torrent 3
Have to spend at least $4:
Usenet 3 Torrent 4
Have to spend at least $5:
Usenet 3 Torrent 5
Have to spend at least $6:
Usenet 3 Torrent 6
Have to spend at least $7:
Usenet 3 Torrent 7
Have to spend at least $8:
Usenet 3 Torrent 8
Have to spend at least $9:
Usenet 3 Torrent 9
Have to spend at least $10:
Usenet 3 Torrent 10
Have to spend at least $11:
Usenet 3 Torrent 11
Have to spend at least $12:
Usenet 3 Torrent 12
Have to spend at least $13:
Usenet 3 Torrent 13
A pretty clear victory for torrents if I do say so myself. |
|
Ravage_D
join:2003-03-28
Kingston, ON
·Primus Telecommuni..
·Cogeco Voip
| reply to Ravage_D
*sighs* We already went over this, but if you must, I'll point it out again...
Cost for one unlimited DSL line from Teksavvy: $39.95/month
Cost for second DSL line from Teksavvy required in order to circumvent throttling practices: Aditional $39.95/month
Cost to run extra phone line into your house: ?? Probably a lot.
Cost to purchase another modem: ?? Depends what you get. Also significant.
This doesn't include extra cost for dry loop.
So, you can spend $80 a month just for your connection NOT counting all the additional fees you have to pay to set it up as well as potentially having to buy a new router that will support MLPPP.
Or, you can use your existing connection and spend an additional $13/month for access.
You can't use the financial thing here. Unless you're fortunate enough not to be throttled (which I don't think exists in residential Ontario).
Your face when Bell figures out how to shape the MLPPP packets? Priceless. |
|
Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
·Colbanet
| Except, you don't need a second line to circumvent throttling with MLPPP. You can enable it on a single line.
Support for MLPPP bonding in Tomato/MLPPP was added because we thought it'd be relatively easy to do and provide big benefits, not because it was required for the original intended purpose of the firmware.
It also doesn't cost anything to run an extra phone line into your house; you start out with at least two, since there are two pairs.
Estimated cost for two Premium lines (400GB is plenty for me) is $61.15/mth before tax assuming one is wet. Why add another $13? |
|
Ravage_D
join:2003-03-28
Kingston, ON
·Primus Telecommuni..
·Cogeco Voip
| Why add an additional $29.95 at all? You could only add $13.
And it appears that I was mis-informed about the MLPPP with single lines, that's pretty cool.
And you're right about the extra two lines existing in the house! Assuming it's not ancient as hell (one of the apartments I rented was really messed up..if we wanted two lines they would have to run another from the pole).
$61.15/month with one dry one wet? That's a damn good price.
I just don't see how you can add up to it as a wet premium is $29.95 and a dry loop premium is also $29.95 + a band rate of some form. Cheapest band rate is A at $7.95/month....brings the total monthly before tax to: $67.85.
Let's not forget that there is a set up fee too, and I'm assuming you have to get another modem, which easily brings initial fees over $100...
Maybe they have better deals where you are but I'm just going by what I'm reading on the website. Also I could be wrong in how they set up Dry Loop and the need for extra modem.
But if you were to add the $13/month to the Teksavvy unlimited plan you'd only be at $53/month....no extra fees, no flashing firmwares, no doing complex set ups, no having to potentially purchase another router......no dealing with trying to get invited to private trackers.
Of course you think it's easy, I take it you designed the dang firmware (really cool btw)! But what about average people?
It's a matter of priorities, but again..I'm not holding a gun to your head here and trying to get you, Guspaz, specifically to change (it's not all about you).
Other people have different situations. They can weigh out the pros and cons themselves.
And let's not forget that Bell could in the future learn how to throttle even more so that there aren't any special ways to circumvent it...... I'm for Net Neutrality so let's hope that never happens.
The point of this thread was to clear up the fact that I never see people using usenet.. I just couldn't understand it.
I've learned a lot throughout discussion here and I've seen a lot of viewpoints. It all boils down to this: it's a matter of priorities and situations.
You don't seem willing to admit this Guspaz, and I'm not sure why.
I'm willing to say I can see why people still use Torrents. It makes sense to me now after discussion.
But I still think for the majority of people, adding say a $13/month fee on top of what is normally paid is easier (not only on the pocket but also on time/effort) than trying to shell out for another connection. That's why I don't agree with your argument about the each dollar etc. etc.. |
|
vitesse
join:2002-12-17
Saint-Jean-Sur-Richelieu, QC | reply to Ikarasu
Your probably right... 25% would be more for uuencode... I stoped to use newsgroup a the beginning of yenc. |
|
Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
·Colbanet
| reply to Ravage_D
said by Ravage_D :Why add an additional $29.95 at all? You could only add $13. The second line is to get double the speed; this applies no matter which way you download your stuff; you'll get double the speed with either BitTorrent or Usenet.
$61.15/month with one dry one wet? That's a damn good price.
I just don't see how you can add up to it as a wet premium is $29.95 and a dry loop premium is also $29.95 + a band rate of some form. Cheapest band rate is A at $7.95/month....brings the total monthly before tax to: $67.85. 2x Premium - $29.95
1x Dry loop fee - $7.25
2x Group Discount - $3
Subtotal: $61.15
Group discounts apply to 4 or more lines. If you have two lines, you need only find two other people to form a group.
Let's not forget that there is a set up fee too, and I'm assuming you have to get another modem, which easily brings initial fees over $100... I'll assume that you already have the wet line and are adding a second, so the total fees are $19.99 (setup) + $35.15 (modem+shipping from Caneris) = $55.14 initial setup. Cheaper if you find a cheap modem locally.
But if you were to add the $13/month to the Teksavvy unlimited plan you'd only be at $53/month....no extra fees, no flashing firmwares, no doing complex set ups, no having to potentially purchase another router......no dealing with trying to get invited to private trackers. But you'd only have 5/800 service instead of 10/1.6 service, which is the point of separate lines; you're paying that $13 regardless of how many lines you have.
Of course you think it's easy, I take it you designed the dang firmware (really cool btw)! But what about average people? DSL_Ricer did pretty much all of the coding. I've done documentation, distribution, quality assurance, and collaborated on the user interface design.
We've designed the firmware to be dead-simply; it is no more complicated to use two lines than it is to use the regular Tomato firmware.
Bonding two lines is literally a matter of plugging the second line in, selecting multilink in a dropdown, and hitting save.
And let's not forget that Bell could in the future learn how to throttle even more so that there aren't any special ways to circumvent it...... I'm for Net Neutrality so let's hope that never happens. We're under no illusions that MLPPP is throttle-proof, it's merely more difficult to throttle. Luckily, at this point, the primary intended purpose of Tomato/MLPPP is bonding multiple lines and not circumventing throttling (although it still does that too).
The point of this thread was to clear up the fact that I never see people using usenet.. I just couldn't understand it. Usenet might be better in many respects, but don't underestimate peoples' willingness to put up with annoyances to get something free. To many people, it's just not worth the extra money. Or rather, there's the perception that it's not worth it.
But I still think for the majority of people, adding say a $13/month fee on top of what is normally paid is easier (not only on the pocket but also on time/effort) than trying to shell out for another connection. That's why I don't agree with your argument about the each dollar etc. etc.. We used to wait in line for fserves to get stuff for free that we could pay for if we walked to the store and rented a DVD; people are willing to put up with a lot to save money. |
|
Ikarasu
join:2004-01-09
Port Coquitlam, BC
·ITalkBB
·TekSavvy Solutions..
| reply to Ravage_D
Can we stop the arguing/trying to decide which is better? :P Both have their ups and down, there is no clear victor... It's all depending on what one person wants.
Some people use Rapidshare to get all their stuff... And they're quite happy with it. They see certain features about it as an advantage, while other people see them are... useless. But it's what makes them happy, and what they chose...
Think of it like windows and Linux. Windows has its advantages (Though its getting to be fewer and fewer everyday) And Linux has its own too. You can argue for days on end, and if someone is used to Windows, and it does everything they want it too...you wont convince them Linux is better, and same goes for someone who uses Linux. There is no "Winner", and you guys can argue/point out flaws till your blue in the face.... but you wont change eachothers minds :P |
|
Stewy
Premium
join:2007-12-12
Kitchener, ON
| said by Ikarasu :There is no "Winner", and you guys can argue.... but you wont change eachothers minds :P One visit to b4e or prao and it will make instant believers for some  |
|
mishkin8
join:2005-09-12
·NBTel now Aliant
| reply to Ravage_D
actually the pre is the time from which the group offically releases the release until it is uploaded and done on the torrent site
I actually have access to the site that SCT gets most of it's content from but like I said I actually prefer sct lol
I use to be uploader for torrentbytes back when they didn't suck |
|
Gophermofur
join:2008-07-12
| reply to Ravage_D
Hmm, well as the debate rages on, I'd like to add that I've used both Torrents and Usenet. While I prefer usenet 100%, I can see the merit in Torrents and certainly understand the whole "why pay more to download" argument from those supporting Torrents.
For me, there were several reasons for the switch from BT to usenet:
1. Speed. Torrents are throttled. Which, as some have mentioned, can be circumvented with some fancy setups.
2. Bandwidth - While on Rogers, I was worried about going over my cap, so using BT which requires two way traffic wasn't as appeling as Usenet where downloading is the only thing that counts towards your limit. Sure you can leech, but most of the argument here has been about private trackers where seeding ratio is 1:1. Downloading an 8 GB file is bad enough on a 60 GB rogers cap, having to upload 8GB as sacrafice/payment to the private tracker gods is even worse.
3. Privacy. Now, I'll admit that I don't know that much about this issue as I'm not 100% on how safe Usenet is either. It does have SSL encryption, but I was recently told that SSL may not do all that much for you in the long run. In any case, when I made the switch, Media Sentry was trying to hit every torrent file they could. There was need to use peer guardian and other IP blocking applications -- but there were reports that they didn't even work? At the time, Bit Torrent was the focal point of anti-piracy advocates. I even had a friend who got a letter from Rogers, originally sent from some anti-piracy organization indicating he had been downloading copyrighted material. Bit Torrent seemed like too much of a risk.
For those who use private trackers, you can't say you don't pay anything for Torrents, because you are paying with bandwidth. They simply force you to upload, in order to download. This may not be a problem while Teksavvy has 200GB/Unlimited caps, but what happens if your cap was a lot lower? Would it still be worth it?
I pay $11/month for Astraweb. I can get files as old as 150 days via SSL encryption. To ME (and I undstand everyone has their own needs) the $11/month is justified. |
|
