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alamarco
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join:2003-06-18
Windsor, ON

alamarco

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[Anime] Fansubs

Industry roundtable: Fansubs - The Death of Anime?

Very good video, it's about an hour long, but worth the watch. Not sure if it was posted yet, but just thought to share this video.

Tenar
join:2008-01-02
Midland, ON

Tenar

Member

I'm not sure that the industry is in decline anymore than any other entertainment industry.

It just hurts anime industry more since their profit margins are not as high. Plus they need to stop releasing so much crap anime and release good titles that don't saturate the market.

and it is true that they need to do more digital distribution. Just like Hollywood needs to do that.

Interesting panel tho. But one guy mentioned that your ISP is going to monitor your internet use.. lol

alamarco
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join:2003-06-18
Windsor, ON

alamarco

Premium Member

Yeah, some of the comments were funny. The biggest contributors seemed to be the marketing guy from Funimation and the guy from AnimeNewsNetwork.

I forget who said it, might of been Shawne, but they need to go digital first and then DVD's. Release content ASAP after the Japanese TV release in the form of downloads and then release DVD's for the collectors.

I for one only watch fansubs because I can't keep current with Japanese. It's been a year since Gundam 00 and it's just about to come out to the USA (I can't even find any information for Canada). That's too long to wait.

Shawne mentioned a lot of difficulties in releasing same day, such as the copyrights, editing, etc. It doesn't have to be released same day, but do it in a timely manner. Maybe a week later or something. Don't take years to release it over in America.

sivran
Vive Vivaldi
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join:2003-09-15
Irving, TX

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No way. Fansubs are a boon to the industry.

Tenar
join:2008-01-02
Midland, ON

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said by alamarco:

I forget who said it, might of been Shawne, but they need to go digital first and then DVD's. Release content ASAP after the Japanese TV release in the form of downloads and then release DVD's for the collectors.

I agree, that is the way they should go. Release a lower quality sub-only download a week or two after the broadcast in japan.

Then release a cleaner dvd version with English dub and sub when its ready.

captokita
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Interesting - I'll have to take some time to watch the whole thing, since I'm at work now.

Fansubs to me HELP the industry, as I've bought several series after watching the fansubs. The industry needs to release better QUALITY products, however. I find some dubs to be damn well horrid, and some subs so obnoxiously WRONG it makes your head spin. I may not know Japanese perfectly, but I've been watching subbed stuff for almost 20 years now, and can tell when some things are just wrong.

The industry wants to make a buck, that's the sticking point, which is a big "DUH!" since ALL businesses are in business to make money, it just seems that they want to make the money without putting in the effort to earn that money, by releasing sub-par crap. But they have a scapegoat when things go wrong. "It's because people downloaded it! THAT'S why our product isn't selling!" instead of knowing the reason is either A: The series is a bore, and people aren't interested, or B: The production is poor, and people are turned off by it.

What's the solution? Do companies release quicker episodes? Kind of hard when companies don't usually pick up series when they start, normally after they've been established, and popular. Do they charge for downloads? How much would fans consider acceptable? Would you be able to play this content on ANY computer? etc.

sivran
Vive Vivaldi
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join:2003-09-15
Irving, TX

sivran

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Maybe they should start hiring some of the fansub groups' translators.

Tenar
join:2008-01-02
Midland, ON

Tenar

Member

I don't know if I buy the argument that fansubs are better translations.

Wouldn't the professional do a better job of translating than some guy in his basement?

sivran
Vive Vivaldi
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Irving, TX

sivran

Premium Member

said by Tenar:

I don't know if I buy the argument that fansubs are better translations.

Wouldn't the professional do a better job of translating than some guy in his basement?
Being paid to do something does not automatically make one better at it than someone who does it for free.

A fansubber also doesn't have any suits hanging around saying, something to the effect of "you can't say that in a cartoon! Change it!" Or "Let's put this in, it would be KEWL!"
(That's right. Bandai, Tokyopop, I'm lookin at YOU.)

captokita
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Calabash, NC

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said by Tenar:

Wouldn't the professional do a better job of translating than some guy in his basement?
In a word. NO!

The last instance of "Professional" subbing I saw at the live Death Note movie, they have a whole line completely wrong. We're talking not remotely close. This was a dubbed movie, but they showed a "Behind the scenes" thing at the end, and it included some subbed sections.

Also, you find more "literal" translations in fansubs, as apposed to the "Americanized" translations.

Tenar
join:2008-01-02
Midland, ON

Tenar

Member

said by captokita:

said by Tenar:

Wouldn't the professional do a better job of translating than some guy in his basement?
In a word. NO!

The last instance of "Professional" subbing I saw at the live Death Note movie, they have a whole line completely wrong. We're talking not remotely close. This was a dubbed movie, but they showed a "Behind the scenes" thing at the end, and it included some subbed sections.

Also, you find more "literal" translations in fansubs, as apposed to the "Americanized" translations.
Okay, but literal translations don't always make sense culturally. I don't want a page of text explaining a joke to me like i have seen in some fan subs.

If you have to explain it then it's not funny and you haven't translated the fact that there's a joke in there.

I still wonder, like they mentioned in the video, if people just use this as an excuse to keep getting free anime.

I don't speak Japanese, I'm not of Japanese cultural. So how do you tell when it is a 'proper' or better translation?

I don't doubt that there are a lot of cases where the dialogue becomes more 'kiddie' (for lack of better term) in shows like Naruto where they want to appeal to a wider audience and put in 'school yard' talk.

But is subtitled Naruto as bad (are subs of Naruto available commercially?) What about subtitled One Piece or Bleach? Do they suffer from the same thing?

I don't really notice much of this 'Americanization' in the dubs that I watch (Naruto and bleach I don't watch). Or maybe I'm just not the type to notice or care.

Can you show an example of these 'mistranslated' or added words in a commercial sub vs a fan sub?

alamarco
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join:2003-06-18
Windsor, ON

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Literal vs Americanized would be something that's opinion based and not professionals being worse than fansubs.

I remember watching School Rumble and there were so many notes from the translators due to all the Japanese puns used. A couple of episodes even told you to go to their website for further explanation because it'd be too long to put into the fansub.

Are fansubs better because they do this? I don't think so, it depends on what you prefer. If you want to look into the puns, you could always Google them yourself instead of having the translators spell it out for you.

I agree with Tenar See Profile that if I'm reading an explanation to a pun I'm not going to laugh like I would if I understood the pun. It's like a real life scenario, if someone tells you a joke and has to explain it you'll probably giggle, but you wont laugh your ass off as if you got the joke yourself. The impact just isn't there anymore.

captokita
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join:2005-02-22
Calabash, NC

captokita

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said by alamarco:

I agree with Tenar See Profile that if I'm reading an explanation to a pun I'm not going to laugh like I would if I understood the pun. It's like a real life scenario, if someone tells you a joke and has to explain it you'll probably giggle, but you wont laugh your ass off as if you got the joke yourself. The impact just isn't there anymore.
This is true - however, if you CHANGE the pun, it really changes what you're laughing at right? I agree with you about if you have to spell it out, it ruins the whole joke, but you have to realize that what you're watching is a different culture's entertainment. Some things are universal, others are not.

Is downloading a fansub any different from downloading the latest episode of LOST or South Park? Only that more effort was put into the sub of a show in another language? Which opens a whole other can of worms regarding downloading broadcasted content. Would Bandai, et al have issue with you watching RAW episodes? Or do they just take issue with the subbed versions? Why even broadcast this stuff at all? Just put it out on DVD right away, and all your problems go away. (except the AD revenue)
captokita

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said by Tenar:

Can you show an example of these 'mistranslated' or added words in a commercial sub vs a fan sub?
I can point to many translations as far as dubs go. Watch the dub of the 2nd Yamato movie, and you will find some damn well atrocious translations.

There's a set of videos around called B.A.D. Bad American Dubbing - they go into a lot of the bad side of the dub world, and make you laugh at the foolishness to boot.

As for subs, I can't list off the top of my head, as I mostly get the DVDs for the dubs, but I recall watching a sub of Key the Metal Idol some time ago from Viz where the subs were way off in spots. Hell, they just didn't bother subbing lines completely in some parts. THAT was poor. If I'm paying GOOD money to support an industry, they ought to be doing a good job of it, don't you think? They're not ALL this way, don't think I'm saying that.

Tenar
join:2008-01-02
Midland, ON

Tenar

Member

said by captokita:

As for subs, I can't list off the top of my head, as I mostly get the DVDs for the dubs, but I recall watching a sub of Key the Metal Idol some time ago from Viz where the subs were way off in spots. Hell, they just didn't bother subbing lines completely in some parts. THAT was poor. If I'm paying GOOD money to support an industry, they ought to be doing a good job of it, don't you think? They're not ALL this way, don't think I'm saying that.
Key is pretty old now. Let's hope that they learned their lessons.

I don't watch a lot of the subs but I'd still want Sub fans to have access to a good product. If it is really bad, write the company sometimes they do listen. They did release uncut one piece after fans complained and said they wanted it.
Sukunai
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join:2008-05-07

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Amazing, I can almost get a deja vu feel off this thread

My thoughts on fansubs are not easy to express.
I speak English not Japanese. That's unlikely to change.

I'm cool with buying stuff online, but I'm not cool with paying a sum so high it just seems dumb to do so when I can just settle for paying for my internet service and just downloading for free and not caring in the process.

That isn't very helpful for the anime industry. What can I say. There are more than a few industries out there seemingly unable to just accept the reality that is the internet.

Now I CAN understand mainstream movies and I can't claim language as a reason for downloading THOSE.
But I want to watch anime, and I don't mind reading subs.
And I can't buy what never goes on sale, and plenty of the fan subs I have watched are not likely about to appear any time soon on the North American market.
There are multiple reasons for why they are not about to appear, they all end the same though, I don't get the show unless I download a sub.

Fan subbing groups are likely visible enough to be capable of being closed down.
So I suppose if the industry REALLY wants it to end, it can happen. And no fan sub means nothing to download. So the internet is rendered not a problem by eliminating the source.

Well I entered into the anime scene ONLY thanks to fan subs.
I have to seriously wonder, what would truly happen to anime sales if fan subs went away. How many new fans would be cut off and unable to ever become potential retail sales sources?

I don't buy my anime based on the jacket of the dvd.
I likely have seen every anime I liked as a fan sub first.
I only see a very rare few animes as English dubbed dvd retail purchases as my initial viewing. And this is ONLY because a friend with money to waste buys the dvd first.
And as much cash as this friend has, he still enjoys using me as a conduit for a number of fan subs (I have better internet services than he does).

I have to say, in the absence of fansubs, I will NOT be buying an anime without having any idea of whether I really want to watch it.
Heck I even likely would be disinclined to want to view downloaded dvd copies to view as my first viewing (it takes enough effort to just dim my enthusiasm).

I can understand the problems besetting the makers of anime.
I have no easy solutions.
I just know, if THEY can't find a decent non kill the fansubs solution, then they may as well just discontinue trying to market English dub dvd retail entirely.

If they broadcast it, it goes into the airwaves, and it WILL appear on the internet. That's a no brainer.
If they refuse to broadcast it, and just market to dvd, chances are the industry crashes and burns.

And I watch a lot of anime, and to be honest, I wonder how it even gets aired in Japan let alone outside of Japan.
I recently watched a 13 ep show called Moetan. This show is so entirely about deliberating making it "seem" horrendously loli in nature. She 17, she's just drawn to make you think dreadfully younger. Oh sure, like that will fly in the US.

I think that happens to a lot of anime. It pushes a lot of censor buttons outside of Japan where the culture just can't handle the content.

And no, I don't wish to pay for expensive dvds for the mangled for North America version of the show.

So how much anime is even logical to assume is ever due to show up on store shelves in the first place?

montana3087
Say hello to my little friend
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This in reference to the fast release after being shown in Japan, there is one on Hulu, Shikabane Hime, that is being released a month after broadcasting. It is at the fourth episode right now, the series started at the end of Sept.
Here is the link:
»www.hulu.com/shikabane-h ··· ns/Anime

alamarco
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join:2003-06-18
Windsor, ON

alamarco

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Good thing you brought back this topic!

In the news recently is Naruto! And it's now going to be subbed and streamed officially 1 week after airing in Japan. That is good service! I'm not sure the level of quality the service will offer. I sometimes wait more than a week for releases from certain groups since they do quality jobs. An example would be Rumbel for Soul Eater or Vegapunk for One Piece. So 1 week is pretty good . Begins January 15th, 2009.

Viz to Stream Naruto on Naruto.com Within 1 Week of Japanese Airing (Updated)

And even better is TV Tokyo. Although not free, they're offering shows within an HOUR. That's right, one hour! I'm definitely going to be subscribing the first month and see how they do. This is what I was waiting for! If only all shows were like this . Begins January 8th, 2009.

TV Tokyo to Stream Naruto via Crunchyroll Worldwide (Update 2)

Times are definitely changing and getting more exciting.

montana3087
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Mmmm... I bet the quality(resolution) is poor, other than the 480p from Hulu, I have only seen crap. If there is better site please tell me, because I would love to know.

captokita
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said by alamarco:

And even better is TV Tokyo. Although not free, they're offering shows within an HOUR. That's right, one hour! I'm definitely going to be subscribing the first month and see how they do. This is what I was waiting for! If only all shows were like this . Begins January 8th, 2009.

Times are definitely changing and getting more exciting.
Interesting, but this can be problematic. What will the quality be? Are we to expect an "Adult Swim FIX" like version, where the video quality is sub-par? If the version they are offering, especially PAID for, is lower quality than the fansubbed version I can download from DB, why would I bother?

I have no problem shelling out a few bucks a month for a service I would enjoy, but I don't want to pay for crap. Which these streams tend to be. If I can't download it to view say in MPC, or ZP, I'm not interested.

*Viz* (ALL companies) listen up! $1? .50? per episode? Plus you can add a SHORT shameless plug for your products (previews?) during the commercial break spot. I think that type of business model would work well. But it NEEDS to be downloadable, and match, if not exceed, the quality of a fansub to make it viable. Heck, monthly subscriptions would work as well, access to new shows, etc.

alamarco
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join:2003-06-18
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alamarco

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They can stream HQ videos on the web. Sites like GameTrailers.com have some trailers that are streamed at high resolutions. So it can be done.

I doubt the episodes will be altered as they're coming within the hour. Crunchyroll seems to be working directly with TV Tokyo and not Viz, which gives even more evidence toward no editing being done.

I do hope it's HD streams, but even if it's SD this is a start. If they get enough interest they can possibly do the HD streams.

captokita
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captokita

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It's certainly a start, and we know the have the ability to do it right, but the question remains until January, "CAN THEY?" or "WILL THEY?"

I'm not worried about altering of episodes as I am with the quality of the video itself.

FREE - stream online
PAID - Downloadable high-quality content

I don't think people would have issue with this.

SSidlov
Other Things On My Mind
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DB to stop subbing Naruto

said by alamarco:

Viz to Stream Naruto on Naruto.com Within 1 Week of Japanese Airing (Updated)

And even better is TV Tokyo. Although not free, they're offering shows within an HOUR. That's right, one hour! I'm definitely going to be subscribing the first month and see how they do. This is what I was waiting for! If only all shows were like this . Begins January 8th, 2009.

TV Tokyo to Stream Naruto via Crunchyroll Worldwide (Update 2)

Times are definitely changing and getting more exciting.
DB has announced that it will stop subbing at the same time. »dattebayo.com/pr/100
Sukunai
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Re: [Anime] Fansubs

It takes me about oh a few minutes to get a recent show from the usual fansub source via the usual online source (in my case animesuki).

Would I pay for the same thing I get for free now?
Well lets think about the cost of a dvd.

30 bucks is about atypical for a dvd that has on average 4 shows plus 'stuff'.
It's a proper dvd and perfect visual quality and has a dub track in English basically (for North America at least).
So how much is a show worth to me that is at least subbed adequately?
Well I'd give em a buck I guess to know I could have it and burn it to a disk and not be in any way thinking I was in any way screwing over the people that give me what I love to watch.

But I require broadband speed and near dvd image quality or I simply ain't interested.

alamarco
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captokita See Profile: I don't think they have a problem with streaming, but if they provide high quality downloads they'll be on BT a minute after they launch.

SSidlov See Profile: I hope DB's statement is true. Fansubs were here because we wouldn't get releases for years after release in Japan. Now, with the direction companies are taking we no longer have to wait very long. I hope other fansubbers will do the same when other shows start to take the same direction.

captokita
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captokita

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said by alamarco:

captokita See Profile: I don't think they have a problem with streaming, but if they provide high quality downloads they'll be on BT a minute after they launch.
This is entirely true, but I personally would purchase it myself. So long as it's a QUALITY product! I don't always have the 20 minutes to sit and watch a stream, where a downloaded episode can be played anytime, and basically anywhere.

DB stopping Naruto at that date would amaze me, as they've always been a "Who cares what they think" group, though that post seemed legit.

Rumbel has stopped Soul Eater due to C&D orders from FUNimation. »rumbel-subs.com/ - so if you were waiting for the next release, sadly, looks like you gotta go elsewhere. I don't think they've gotten the show, but they are acting along with the Japanese studio in this regard.

Let's face it, fansubbing may be changed forever shortly.

alamarco
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alamarco

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Yeah, I was depressed when I heard Rumbel were stopping. They were the best with Soul Eater subs. I'm not sure if I'm going to continue on with Soul Eater or just wait until the DVD's get released. The other groups, compared to Rumbel, are just lacking.

captokita
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Calabash, NC

captokita

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said by alamarco:

Yeah, I was depressed when I heard Rumbel were stopping. They were the best with Soul Eater subs. I'm not sure if I'm going to continue on with Soul Eater or just wait until the DVD's get released. The other groups, compared to Rumbel, are just lacking.
Lacking? well, not as GOOD as Rumbel for sure, but it's a story worth following. Even if you know the subs aren't perfect, you should have a good feeling for what's going on.

Tenar
join:2008-01-02
Midland, ON

Tenar

Member

said by captokita:

said by alamarco:

Yeah, I was depressed when I heard Rumbel were stopping. They were the best with Soul Eater subs. I'm not sure if I'm going to continue on with Soul Eater or just wait until the DVD's get released. The other groups, compared to Rumbel, are just lacking.
Lacking? well, not as GOOD as Rumbel for sure, but it's a story worth following. Even if you know the subs aren't perfect, you should have a good feeling for what's going on.
How is a sub-quality fan sub product better than waiting for a legit good quality product?

..Other than one being free and one being pay of course..

The argument that fan subs are just better doesn't seem to apply anymore, or am I just 'missing the point?'

captokita
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captokita

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said by Tenar:

How is a sub-quality fan sub product better than waiting for a legit good quality product?

..Other than one being free and one being pay of course..

The argument that fan subs are just better doesn't seem to apply anymore, or am I just 'missing the point?'
Ummm, what? When did anyone say such things? Last I checked, Soul Eater is NOT - let me say that again - NOT licensed by Funimation, or ANY US company. So your point is moot. I was stating don't let one sub group keep you from enjoying a series if you're interested in it. Sure, you cam wait for the eventual acquisition of it by Funimation, and wait for the release 1, 2, or more years from now to get to the point the show is at NOW. That's entirely up to you.

No one is advocating getting fansubbed work over commercial products.

I guess, ALL fan-subbed work is low quality, and all pay-work is naturally high quality? Don't fool yourself.