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 funchordsHelloPremium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Yarmouth Port, MA
kudos:5 | reply to amigo_boy
Re: Libertarianism is a joke said by amigo_boy:(...a bunch of repeated stuff, deleted...)You're the one who invoked libertarianism as some kind of standard to follow. No, I said no such thing. I said that it was my point of view and it was possibly an explanation of why hotboiinnc were in some rare agreement here.
Every single political persuasion has its "high-sounding, principled rhetoric as if it's on a moral high ground compared to everyone else."
Again, you are contributing nothing and making pot-shots at general political purviews is just trolling and its off-topic. Have you noticed that I haven't refuted anything that you've said? Yet you continue to argue back.
My next step is to hit "hey mods" and let them delete the whole thread, including this message, if they so desire.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
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 ·magicjack.com
3 edits | said by funchords:Every single political persuasion has its "high-sounding, principled rhetoric as if it's on a moral high ground compared to everyone else." I've never seen the Right or Left refer to the "non-coercion" principle. Only libertarians (and so-called Ayn Rand "objectivsts") do.
The obvious problem is if you take "non-coercion" to its natural conclusion. At that point you're in a Lockean "state of nature." No social contract. Perfect rights -- that are *only* as perfect as you, as an individual has the power to assert/protect.
As I said in a previous post, such a state of nature only lasts a few minutes. A few bad people join together in a "society" to overpower the "principled" individuals. The "principled" individuals join together to protect themselves from the bad people. And, in about 19 minutes, you have social contracts. An emphasis on the "common good." Where "common" always leaves some people better or worse than they would have been in a Lockean state of nature.
Rs and Ds argue for more or less government in different areas (banning weed, or same-sex marriages, or abortion, etc.). But, you never see them refer to some kind of so-called absolute standard of Libertarian "consentualism." Neither argue for "less government" (as if those who call for more government are anti-American, or anti-Liberty). They simply call for different kinds of government (throwing Cheech and Chong Fans in prison, or defining marriage differently).
It's only the libertarians who toss around high-sounding terms like "consent" (or lack of consent). But, the odd thing is, they're perfectly happy with using government in an unconsensual manner -- while depicting themselves as focused on non-coercion. They're no different than anyone else. They just feel they can pretty themselves up with high-sounding, idelogical rhetoric.
Mark | |
funchordsHelloPremium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Yarmouth Port, MA
kudos:5
1 edit | Mark,
That is not resonating with me at all. If that's your view of libertarianism or Libertarians, then you and I are have different definitions, and before you help me figure out that you're right and I'm wrong, let me tell you now that I don't care. I used the word to describe my point of view, and if I used it wrong I'll still have the same basic point of view -- just one with the wrong name. Perhaps it's best that you forget I used the word or just assume that I don't know what it is.
That said, my position remains -- with residential telecom, we have a choice between private regulation by the company or companies that serve our address, or public regulation by the government. Private regulation by companies is usually not a major problem because people can often switch to a company that suits their wants and needs. But when the situation doesn't allow that choice, then I am not opposed to limited government involvement.
That's all.
Whether that's right, left, up, or down -- I don't care. It's how I feel on the matter.
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Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
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| said by funchords:you and I are have different definitions I'm just going by what is official Libertarian dogma from the Libertarian party. And, from Ayn Rand's "objectivism." The premise is the "non-coercion" principle.
If you've found a "pragmatic" position that accepts "coercion" sometimes, that's fine with me. That's what Libertarians do. They either follow the dogma to its natural conclusion (irrelevancy and anarchy). Or, they do the same thing everyone else does: be pragmatic.
As I said before, everyone else is pragmatic without claiming to be defenders of individual liberty, according to a perfect standard.
Libertarianism is essentially self-deceit.
said by funchords:with residential telecom, we have a choice between private regulation by the company or companies that serve our address, or public regulation by the government. Again, simplistic libertarian world views. Telcos are corporations, a fictional, yet legal entity created by state legislatures. To serve as the "fall guy" if officers and investors make the wrong "free market" choices.
That's the problem I have with libertarianism. It redefines reality. Ignore all the social moderation of capital markets, and then claim that some isolated, narrow activity is anti-liberty.
Like I've said a few times. For libertarianism to have any significant meaning, it would have to oppose things like state-creation of corporate charters (a social interference in consentual relationships). Or, libertarians have to be pragmatic and say "that's ok, but something else is wrong." Which makes them no different than any other political idelogy. I.e., it's not about liberty, it's about pragmatism and "the common good."
Mark | |
funchordsHelloPremium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Yarmouth Port, MA
kudos:5 | Fine, but DSLReports is about Broadband, Telecom, DSL, and the like.
I'm sorry I said one of your magic words or whatever set you off, but "Libertarian is a joke" is entirely off-topic and seemed to just serve as an opportunity for you to spout off about something that wasn't being discussed. | |
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| said by funchords:Fine, but DSLReports is about Broadband, Telecom, DSL, and the like. Libertarinism is about taking so-called personal responsibility. Maybe you need to take responsibility for
IMO, this is sounding like typical libertarianism. "Let me spout off about my high-sounding principles. But, if anyone challenges me, I want to 'hey mod' them, or claim they're off topic."
Mark | |
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