fireflier
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1 edit |  [Rant] ANTOnline/Amazon: Pursue it or let it go?
Not sure if I should just let this go since it's ultimately going to be resolved, however I'm bothered by how it's progressed.
The Background:
On 8/11/08, I bought a Panasonic Network camera from ANTOnline.com through Amazon using some Amazon gift cards. So ANTOnline was the supplier and Amazon is the middle man. No problems, done this before and it's worked fine.
So the camera shows up that week. No damage to the shipping box, no damage to the camera box inside. I get it out to set it up (like 3 others I've had). During setup I notice the image is really messed up--like a CCD isssue. I contacted Panasonic and their tech support logged into the camera across the internet and confirmed the bad display. Told me I could send it back to the vendor or send it to Panasonic for warranty repair.
I figured I just got it, I'll just send it back to ANTOnline for exchange with another. So I go through their RMA Process to return it as defective. Several days later I get this email from ANTOnline's customer support:
"Unfortunately, products with customer caused item, packaging or accessory damage; OR that are missing items, accessories or packaging; cannot be resold as new - exactly as you received the product are not eligible for return or refund.
Please contact the manufacturer directly. Panasonic can quickly provide product support to include item replacement. "
HUH?
So they're telling me it has to go back to Panasonic even though it left them less than 1 week prior despite my explanation it was not damaged in shipping or by me--simply defective. It's also well under the 30 day return period most vendors offer.
So I contact Amazon and explain the situation and suggest that they add some warning to customers buying from vendors who don't take back defective merchandise (NEWEgg explictly states their position on each product page for instance). Someone at Amazon submits an A-Z guarantee claim for me and I figure Amazon will take care of it. This was Amazon's confirmation: "This e-mail confirms that an Amazon.com A-to-z Guarantee claim has been filed for order #104-xxxxxxxxxxxx because you received a damaged item. Your comments were "customer received defective item, confirmed with the manufacturer that the item was defective, but the seller has informed that they will not able to accept the item for return or refund, hence filing an A-z guarantee claim on behalf of the customer. ".
A couple of days later, Amazon responds with this:
"We are writing to follow up with you regarding the Guarantee claim that was filed for order 104-xxxxxxxxxxxxx. The seller of this order has a posted returns policy, which was available to you prior to the time of purchase. This policy explicitly states that items such as those purchased by you cannot be returned under these circumstances. As a result, your claim has been closed.
If this is a defective or damaged item, it is possible that it is under warranty with the manufacturer. We advise that you contact them for assistance. In many cases, they are willing to repair or replace defective products.
Thank you for choosing Amazon.com.
---
Jon
Account Specialist
A-to-z Guarantee Program"
So I figure Amazon's not going to back me, ANTOnline doesn't give a crap and send it back to Panasonic. Then I started thinking about "Jon's" comment and went to the ANTOnline marketplace at Amazon to review their' return policy. To avoid unnecessarily lengthening the thread, I'll put the URL up for anyone to review.
»www.amazon.com/gp/help/seller/re···isPopup=
Here are the statements pertinent to my attempted return:
"All Potentially Defective Product claims should be directed directly to the manufacturer or warranty provider for evaluation and warranty support.. Refer to the products' individual warranty policy for further information.
99% of initially diagnosed "Potentially Defective Products" turn out to be configuration or compatibility issues and are not "Defective Products". "
Non-Defective Products ( "Buyers Remorse" )
Please apply to RMA using this link.
Printers, consumables (toner, print cartridges, media, CDR, DVDRW, batteries, paper, office supplies, etc..), software, video games and movies are not returnable.
Pre-approved Non-defective products can be returned within 30 calendar days from Amazon purchase date if returned in original item and package condition for partial item refund if return is received in "new" manufacturer's condition and able to be re-sold. Returned products are subject to shipping, and restocking charges, or refund rejection as listed below.
Well, it's defective so I can't even send it back and pay a 15% restock right??
"Products returned Opened with missing items, packaging or accessories or customer caused item, packaging or accessory damage that cannot be resold as for any reason will be discarded with no refund."
Well, it's defective so it can't be resold. Hmmmm. . .
So I add some vendor feedback at Amazon's site:
"Received a defective Network camera. ANTOnline does NOT exchange products of this type received as defective, even if they were not damaged in shipment or by the customer. Very poor product support compared to vendors like Amazon, NewEgg, etc. If you get a defective product, you're on your own with the manufacturer. Their purchasing policy states this. If they can't resell it, it's yours."
Date: 8/15/2008"
And much to my surprise, ANTOnline's response to my review is this:
We are sorry this customer is unhappy. We work hard to make every customer happy and 99% are, but like all resellers the return period is 30 days. After that you contact the manufacturer for warranty service."
WTF??? I haven't even been in possession of the camera for 30 days, nor has it been 30 days since it left their facility and they're claiming they wouldn't accept it because it was past 30 days?
So my dilemma is this:
It's gone back to Panasonic, and presumably they'll take care of it. But I'm still pissed at ANTOnline's policy which seems to let them decide at their convenience what they will and won't take back. I'm also disappointed with Amazon because it seems like they just contacted ANT who said "Hey, the policy is "Clearly" stated, not our fault" and Amazon turned around with the same explanation despite no explicit statement that they won't take back defective merchandise--particuarly based on their reply to my feedback which implies they WOULD take it back within 30 days.
On one hand, I figure I should let it go, but it bothers me when companies do this and leave the customer hanging. I even asked Amazon what guarantee I had that ANT didn't knowingly send defective merchandise also realizing that based on their policy that they had no responsibility to fix anything--it was the customer and the manufacturer.
Wondering if I should even keep pursuing it or just drop it. If I drop it, I have no doubt ANTOnline will do this to others--if you read other customer reviews regarding incorrect or bad items received, people say similar things and ANT's comments imply the customer screwed up. Prior to this, I'd had good luck with ANT, but then again, I never received a mixed up or defective item.
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Tradition: Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid. --despair.com |
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asjamias
join:2003-11-20
Memphis, TN | complain to higher ups and not just customer service who reads from a script. |
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Rob
In Deo speramus, God Bless the USA
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join:2001-08-25
Kendall, FL | reply to fireflier
I would file a dispute with your credit card provider, if Amazon refuses to assist you further. |
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fireflier
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| That was actually one of my earlier thoughts, however as mentioned in the OP, I paid for it with gift cards (Amazon gift cards) so I'm afraid I'm out of luck there. . . 
At least we're on the same page though.  Thanks for the advice.
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Tradition: Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid. --despair.com |
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Rob
In Deo speramus, God Bless the USA
Premium
join:2001-08-25
Kendall, FL
 ·Comcast
| said by fireflier  :That was actually one of my earlier thoughts, however as mentioned in the OP, I paid for it with gift cards (Amazon gift cards) so I'm afraid I'm out of luck there. . . At least we're on the same page though. Thanks for the advice. D'oh! By the time I got to the bottom, I forgot how you paid.
I think it's wrong with Amazon to give you such as hassle. Sure, it's a 3rd party, but you bought from them because you trust Amazon. |
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fireflier
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| reply to asjamias
I may take that road but I'm not sure who to contact. I sent an email back to their A-Z claims group explaining my position and I sent an email to their customer service friday explaining what is going on and that I take issue with ANTOnline's misleading response to my vendor review.
So far I haven't heard a peep out of Amazon at all. I'm hoping it's just because it's a weekend but this seems strangely unresponsive for Amazon. I'm starting to wonder if they're trying to ignore it at this point. I guess I'll know in the next day or two.
I know I got burned and I don't dispute the fact that I should have been more familiar with the returns policy (though as mentioned, I'd previously done business with them without incident before and they seemed honest so I naively assumed they'd be as reputable as other online vendors), however I still feel ANTOnline's policy is vague in regard to this type of situation and I'm particularly annoyed that they're making people who read negative reviews believe the customer screwed up (in my case by implying I failed to ask for an exchange or refund within 30 days). The camera was ordered 8/11/08. Given that today is 8/24/08 and I've been dealing with this for over a week, how could I have failed to submit an RMA for the item within 30 days?
If you have any suggestions for who I can contact at Amazon to escalate it, I'd appreciate it, otherwise, I'll keep talking to the folks at Amazon until I figure it out.
Oh, and thanks for the suggestion.
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Tradition: Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid. --despair.com |
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fireflier
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| reply to Rob
said by Rob :Sure, it's a 3rd party, but you bought from them because you trust Amazon. Exactly!
If Amazon had the camera available I certainly would have bought it directly from them, but their lead-time on it when I bought was 1-2 MONTHS. Obviously buying from an Amazon seller does not guarantee the same service as Amazon directly. I've had one defective item that came from Amazon and they were awesome. As soon as someone saw I was sending it back, they emailed me, apologized (it wasn't Amazon's fault it was defective) and then overnighted me a new one before they even got the bad one back! Contrast that with what ANTOnline is doing. . . 
The other annoying thing is, I bought a *NEW* camera and what I'm going to end up with is a refurb (most likely). Warranty replacement typically results in a repaired or refurb item, not a new item. If I wanted a refurb, I could have bought a refurb and saved a few bucks from the beginning--but that's another issue.
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Tradition: Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid. --despair.com |
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Rob
In Deo speramus, God Bless the USA
Premium
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Kendall, FL
·Comcast
| said by fireflier :said by Rob :Sure, it's a 3rd party, but you bought from them because you trust Amazon. Exactly! If Amazon had the camera available I certainly would have bought it directly from them, but their lead-time on it when I bought was 1-2 MONTHS. Obviously buying from an Amazon seller does not guarantee the same service as Amazon directly. I've had one defective item that came from Amazon and they were awesome. As soon as someone saw I was sending it back, they emailed me, apologized (it wasn't Amazon's fault it was defective) and then overnighted me a new one before they even got the bad one back! Contrast that with what ANTOnline is doing. . . The other annoying thing is, I bought a *NEW* camera and what I'm going to end up with is a refurb (most likely). Warranty replacement typically results in a repaired or refurb item, not a new item. If I wanted a refurb, I could have bought a refurb and saved a few bucks from the beginning--but that's another issue. The bright side is that Panasonic is taking care of you. Some mfg's won't even help you at all. |
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Rob
In Deo speramus, God Bless the USA
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Kendall, FL | reply to fireflier
I would call Comcast @ 1-866-216-1072 rather than e-mailing back and forth. |
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fireflier
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Limbo | Comcast? Why would I call Comcast? Do they own Amazon?  |
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Rob
In Deo speramus, God Bless the USA
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join:2001-08-25
Kendall, FL | Derr Amazon. Sorry, been typing Comcast too much! |
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dvd536
as Mr. Pink as they come
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join:2001-04-27
Phoenix, AZ
| reply to fireflier
Exactly why i HATE HATE HATE scamazon. you do your homework looking for the best deal and staying away from sites that rank low on resellerratings or like sites[hello tigerdirect], and scamazon who you pay buys from the bottomfeeder sites/suppliers you did your homework to stay away from.
you're almost guaranteed to have issues. just gotta hope panasonic comes through but since amazon was the real buyer, if they do nothing, you're screwed.
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When I gez aju zavateh na nalechoo more new yonooz tonigh molinigh - Ken Lee |
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fireflier
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| So far, they're doing nothing though admittedly it's uncharacteristic of Amazon. They've traditionally been good and responsive. I have to wonder if there's more going on here than I'm aware of on the surface. It's almost like they're afraid to touch it.
I suppose the moral of the story is, if you buy from Amazon, make sure it comes FROM Amazon. It's the first real issue I've had with an Amazon marketplace vendor but given the experience, it's more like the bad stories you read about some eBay sellers, not something you'd expect from a reputable vendor.
I may be wrong, but I suspect most people make an implicit assumption that the vendor they purchase from will at least offer a 1 week to 30 day return on something that's bad right out of the box. Not providing that sort of service seems "atypical" enough to warrant a special notification to a customer purchasing from a vendor with that kind of policy.
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Tradition: Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid. --despair.com |
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ChicoBob
@sbcglobal.net
| reply to fireflier
I pursued mine. ANT advertised on Amazon an iPod waterproof Otterbox case with headphones. The case came, but not the headphones. ANT said it was a product description error and blamed Amazon. They refused to send the headphones or offer me a refund/return. I sent their response to Amazon for an A to Z refund.
Now here's the really odd part. Amazon accepts the request and has it for a few days, then e-mails me that it won't be giving me a refund. Four minutes later, I receive a second e-mail saying that they have honored the refund request. I checked my credit card balance and the money was returned.
Maybe Amazon is beginning to realize that ANT doesn't have any customer service when taking care of problems and will step in with the A to Z guarantee. |
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fireflier
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| That is some very interesting information!
You got farther than I did. Amazon had my A-Z request for a few days and then emailed saying they won't be giving a refund because ANT's defect returns policy was explicitly explained (apparently their definition of "explicit" and mine differ considerably).
I found something more interesting when I started looking at customer reviews of ANT. Most of the 1 star reviews were related to them not supporting the customer after the sale for one reason or the other--defects, wrong parts, stories similar to yours too. But in some cases, ANT's response to customer complaints about receiving defective items was that they offered or gave the customer a refund.
This means either a) ANT is lying in their reply to bad reviews, or b) they're not even conforming to their own "explicit" returns policy for defects.
It's bad enough ANT is doing this kind of crap but I've notified Amazon of this very issue--by calling their customer support number and submitting a complaint about a vendor violating marketplace guidelines, and I've not heard a word back from Amazon. It's like they simply don't care.
First they say I'm not eligible for a refund for a defect and then conveniently overlook the fact that ANT is claiming in review responses that they are in fact giving refunds. Hell, ANT even lied in their response to my review--by implying their reason for denying my refund was because it was past 30 days since I'd received the product. I filed a claim with them in less than a week!
ANT sucks and Amazon seems to be simply looking the other way. Guess ANT must be bringing a lot of money in for Amazon. . .
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Tradition: Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid. --despair.com |
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AAL
@bellsouth.net | reply to fireflier
I am a seller of electronics at Amazon and I accept defective products within 30 days. ANTOnline lied in their responses to negative feedbacks. I suggest that you keep contacting Amazon customer service till they solve your problem. |
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fireflier
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| Thanks for the advice. The biggest problem I'm having is the total lack of response from Amazon. I'm starting to wonder if they're giving me the runaround because I paid with gift cards and thus have no option to get my credit card company involved.
Any suggestions on who I might contact there that might actually result in a response? I've emailed a response when the A-Z claim was denied, I've submitted correspondence to two different areas, and I've called their customer service and spoken to a live person. The call only resulted in them emailing me a link to submit a complaint for ANT claiming to give refunds to others for defective merchandise, but refusing mine. That's apparently gone nowhere. Frankly I'm pretty dumbfounded at Amazon's apparent lack of any concern at this point.
It's pretty clear to me ANT is lying in their responses (they really seem to enjoy blaming Amazon for inaccurate product descriptions when there's a complaint about a customer not getting what they paid for and ANT's subsequent unwillingness to offer any resolution) and I've even pointed this out in correspondence with Amazon but they just don't seem to care. It would be nice if they'd at least reply and say they're looking into it, or provide some other explanation for why this incident is something other than it appears.
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Tradition: Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid. --despair.com |
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nightshade74
Yet another genxer
Premium
join:2004-11-06
Prattville, AL
·Knology
| reply to fireflier
If nothing else I'd submit a review
to resellerratings.com
»www.resellerratings.com/store/At···nologies
1)As said earlier call amazon 866-216-1072
2)Email the CEO jeff@amazon.com
3)File a BBB complaint
Good luck... |
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fireflier
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| The CEO of Amazon is actually that reachable????
Granted I would be interested in elevating this to someone higher up than their entry tier customer support but going directly to the CEO seems like smashing a fly with a sledgehammer.
Oh, I also did submit a review on ANT Online at a couple of sites (though I haven't checked back since I have). If they can provide feedback, they've probably responded to those ratings with lies as well.
I'm annoyed by Amazon's response but ultimately I think ANT Online is the one that deserves the bad ratings for their total lack of defect support.
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Tradition: Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid. --despair.com |
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