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Inssomniak
The Glitch
Premium
join:2005-04-06
Cayuga, ON
kudos:2

1 edit

A dumb mistake a green WISP operator once made.

We installed our very first sector/AP radio in May/07. While we were installing it we ran 3 cat5 cables to the top, 2 for spares, but noticed one had a very tiny hole in the insulation, and thought two things, one, is how could water enter that tiny hole, and 2, what are the chances its the one we hooked to the radio.

That AP failed 2 days ago.

Water ran down the inside of cable into the tower shed and into the power supply, where it later blew up.

We literally drained the cable, re terminated it but left a "drip loop" in it, and still couldn't link the radio up reliably to our switch, we forced it into a 10/half mode and it lasted until we replaced the run today.

Point of this story? Those tiny little holes will leak!


kf6ytc

join:2002-03-26
Turlock, CA

point of the story: never use indoor grade cat5e for outdoor installations!


tx_tower

join:2007-11-13
Blanco, TX

point 2, run the cat5 in conduit, yes even on the tower. ive had squirrels chew thru cable 60 ft up, hate those little bastards


sarpkaya

join:2008-03-04
Izmir, TR
reply to Inssomniak

Point of the stroy is never use cat5 type cables. Use cat6


robbin
Premium,MVM
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX
kudos:1

Why would using Cat6 make a difference in water getting into the cable.

Point of the story is always use OSP, gel filled cables such as the ones made by Superior-Essex.


Diddy11

join:2003-07-19
Sidney, NE

1 edit
reply to kf6ytc

said by kf6ytc:

point of the story: never use indoor grade cat5e for outdoor installations!
I don't think he specified he used indoor rated cable, "insualation" is a vague term. I used outdoor, and UV rated cable but the same issue occured. It just happens. I think gel filled is the only solution, but not the runnier stuff as gravity takes it toll also.

--
if you fail to plan, you plan to fail


kewlkeed
Grouch
Premium
join:2005-02-05
Knowlton, QC
kudos:1
reply to Inssomniak

Never use cat5... use cat6????

What planet do you live on? Seriously!

But yeah that's to be expected with indoor cat5, and even cheaper outdoor cat5.



Inssomniak
The Glitch
Premium
join:2005-04-06
Cayuga, ON
kudos:2

The cat5 that I used was outdoor rated cable.


LLigetfa

join:2006-05-15
Fort Frances, ON
kudos:1
reply to Inssomniak

Not all outdoor CAT5 is flooded.


EMC_guy

join:2007-10-13
Sharbot Lake, ON
reply to Diddy11

said by Diddy11:

I think gel filled is the only solution, but not the runnier stuff as gravity takes it toll also.
Be aware that gel-filled cables were originally designed for buried/horizontal applications. I do not know if any formal long-term studies have been done for aerial/vertical deployments, but obviously it is working well.

A proven long-term outdoor solution is silicone epoxy encapsulation which makes a cable bundle impervious to heat, cold and chemicals. Unfortunately this is a costly custom job until some company starts selling pre-made CAT5 and Coax.

robbin
Premium,MVM
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX
kudos:1

I've had some Superior-Essex OSP cable up for about 6 years. There was a small amount of leakage when first installed but for the most part all of the gel is still there. I took one down about a year ago and cut into it and it was still filled with gel near the top of the run.


Hahausuck
Premium
join:2003-12-14
kudos:2

I almost always use Belden 7919-A stp osp cable for all tower site runs. I'm a stickler for install quality however so I make sure all runs make it to the top unscathed otherwise we re-run it. When our wisp was originally installed by the last guy before me there was some damaged cables and questionable runs due to twists and bends that were not within factory spec/typical install standards. I wrecked out almost 4k feet of the stuff (originally bestronics stp) and reran them cleanly. Never since then have i had a problem. It really comes down to that if you use the proper cable for the particular application AND you use some smarts on the install you really shouldnt have any problems.



AnonDOG

@verizon.net
reply to Inssomniak

We have used gel filled out door, UV rated...

They get hot and leak the gel out of the pin hole...

No matter what you use, time and chance will happen...

Use burial rated, uv protected, gel filled, RF shielded, and then make sure your grounds are connected to the shield...

Then say your prayers every night, and twice when the weather so indicates.

yawn


LLigetfa

join:2006-05-15
Fort Frances, ON
kudos:1

I use Superior Essex flooded rodent resist and ground only the one end.


Diddy11

join:2003-07-19
Sidney, NE
reply to EMC_guy

I agree, however, the direct bury gel filled cables I have used, have a much heavier gel/grease that just doesn't seem to fall to the bottom with gravity. The jacket is UV rated and shielded as well. I have some on a 55' tower and nothing has come out at the bottom and is working fine for 4 years.
--
if you fail to plan, you plan to fail


robbin
Premium,MVM
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX
kudos:1

That's basically what I use on all of my installs. Superior-Essex OSP is UV rated, shielded and direct burial. It is not cheap but I think it is worth it.


gunther_01
Premium
join:2004-03-29
Saybrook, IL
reply to Inssomniak

A company installed a CPE for us (my other job) on top of a grain bin. 100' of prob. UV rated but flimsy indoor like cable. Zip tied to a bin deck handrail on a downward slop to the POE. A year or so goes by and the service is going down hill pretty fast. Come to find out the cable had "rubbed" it's way through the jacket (80' up in the air (plenty of wind DUH)) and the water just seeped into a NEMA enclosure straight in the POE and POOF.

It wouldn't seem so bad if the NEMA box wern't mounted a couple feet off the ground with the CAT 5 running under that box for 30' and then up to the CPE. So you know that whole cable was just filled with water. It's just a big straw, and gravity still works

IDK, sometimes I wonder...Why??? So it's tacked to that hand rail more then every 10 feet now.



Splitpair
Premium
join:2000-07-29
Cow Towne
kudos:3
reply to EMC_guy

Click for full size
said by EMC_guy:

I think gel filled is the only solution, but not the runnier stuff as gravity takes it toll also.
Oh yea icky pic will migrate more so if the cable is exposed to direct sunlight. I have worked in terminals where the icky pic has migrated out when heated and later when cooled pulls back water with it and after about a year one has a cable filled with a semi conductive sticky brown mass and a thoroughly destroyed section of cable. Another problem with ick cable is the gel is not compatable with some of the insulation compounds used in air core cable and it attacks the plastic causing it to become brittle and fall off leaving lots of shiners to short out. In the shot it can be clearly be seen where the y/g of the ick cable was not bothered by the gel but the insulation on the w/g on the air core had been ruined by the migrating ick. Imagine what it might do if leaked onto and into the electronics and internal wiring of a radio?

FWIW any air core cable will wet if left exposed to water long enough the reason being the jacket no matter how undamaged and impervious it seems has microscopic pores in it. Therefore any cable that will be exposed to water on a continuous basis must have something within the jacket to mitigate the water intrusion. The two most popular methods are air pressure and gell aka icky pic.

However for about a year now we have been using a direct buried powder filled CAT5 cable for cell sites. The powder reacts with moisture by expanding and sealing any leaks and so far the results have been excellent compared to standard screened cable.

I pulled out and replaced a lightning hit run at a site in Coral Springs where the conduit was filled with water. I tied the old cable to the fence found the rip cord and stripped the entire jacket off of it and other than where the lightning burned thru the jacket the conductors where perfectly dry and it could be seen where the powder had changed sealing up a few dozen pores.

The cable is a dream to work with you open it and the pairs are covered with seems like talc none of that nasty icky pic to have on your hands and tools and later oozing out all over the base of the NEMA box and Sjack housing.

When I get to the office Tuesday I’ll get the manufacturers name and post it.

Wayne
--
If you cannot fix it with a buttset and some beanies you ain't a technician.

LLigetfa

join:2006-05-15
Fort Frances, ON
kudos:1

1 edit

I've worked on some fibre optic cable that has a dry tape instead of icky pic. It works just like the powder, reacting with water. When you work with fibre, you need to strip back a lot more than your traditional CAT5 install and end up with icky pic all over everything.

On vertical CAT5 runs, after thoroughly cleaning off the icy pic, put a dab of epoxy at the end of the jacket before crimping. It will keep the icky pic from migrating.
--
Strange as it seems, no amount of learning can cure stupidity, and formal education positively fortifies it. -- Stephen Vizinczey



Splitpair
Premium
join:2000-07-29
Cow Towne
kudos:3

1 edit

said by LLigetfa:

When you work with fibre, you need to strip back a lot more than your traditional CAT5 install and end up with icky pic all over everything.
Your salvation is just over the rainbow.

»www.rainbowtech.net/catalog.php?···67&cat=8
»www.rainbowtech.net/catalog.php?···97&cat=8

That stuff works great at cutting icky pic off fiber.

Wayne
--
If you cannot fix it with a buttset and some beanies you ain't a technician.

LLigetfa

join:2006-05-15
Fort Frances, ON
kudos:1

said by Splitpair:

Your salvation is just over the rainbow.
Ja, I know about the stuff. I've also used the wipes that are impregnated with cleaner but then you have cleaner all over your hands instead of icky pic. Not sure which feels worse. You need to develop a regimen whereby you discard the wipes so you don't pick it back up and get it all over.

If you want to entertain yourself, coat some bread with honey on both sides and watch the raccoons obsess over it. Like us with icky pic, they like to have clean hands.
--
Strange as it seems, no amount of learning can cure stupidity, and formal education positively fortifies it. -- Stephen Vizinczey


gmcintire
Graham
Premium
join:2005-08-09
Blue Ridge, TX
reply to Inssomniak

I actually just had the same thing happen with a customer a few days ago. I switched them over from a competitor and used the existing cat5, which had small tears in it near the CPE and leaked in to the POE injector after a few years. The injector was definitely toast, as well as the ethernet port on the tranzeo radio (but not the whole radio!)

I did the right thing for the customer and replaced the whole cable with my good stuff even though it ended up taking quite a bit longer to fix.


gunther_01
Premium
join:2004-03-29
Saybrook, IL

said by gmcintire:

I actually just had the same thing happen with a customer a few days ago. I switched them over from a competitor and used the existing cat5, which had small tears in it near the CPE and leaked in to the POE injector after a few years. The injector was definitely toast, as well as the ethernet port on the tranzeo radio (but not the whole radio!)

I did the right thing for the customer and replaced the whole cable with my good stuff even though it ended up taking quite a bit longer to fix.
I love switching customers over from another WISP's indoor cable It's that much easier to say "this is part of your problem, they used the cheap stuff"

Any one know why the satelite providers "require" the use of pre-approved cables, ends, mounts,etc,etc... The theory is that they want the install to last at least 10 YEARS. As well as maintain the proper specs. With no maintanence.

I know, off topic /rant

EMC_guy

join:2007-10-13
Sharbot Lake, ON
reply to Splitpair

said by Splitpair:

said by someone else!!! NOT EMC_guy See Profile :

I think gel filled is the only solution, but not the runnier stuff as gravity takes it toll also.
Oh yea icky pic will migrate more so if the cable is exposed to direct sunlight.
Apologies for responding a week late but I must point out that I did not make the above comment about gel-filled cable. The best oudoor solution today is to encapsulate the cable in silicone epoxy but that is a custom job mainly done for offshore and desert oil rigs and military instalations.
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