Movieman420
join:2007-08-28
Rivesville, WV
3 edits | reply to sortofageek
Re: Bandwidth Limits - All discussion here
Ok...now time to see how much more BS shows up in CC's new throttling system/policy. Last night..shortly after midnight est, when there shouldn't be anything close to network congestion on CC's pipes..and I live in a semi rural area too, I intentionally d/led at over 75% of my subscribed bw for over 15 mins..and yep, the 'DSL speeds' kicked in and capped me to 300kbps down. WHY?? CC said that this throttling would only occur during the high volume/heavy load periods for a given 'area' (forget the tech term). I very SERIOUSLY doubt that their network covering a semi-rural part of S. Central West Virginia (lol..they can barely spell internet here..lol) was congested at midnight last night!! One lie down and more to come once customers start 'really' testing. I'm pretty sure there's gonna be LOTS more to notice that this throttling is going to be a 24/7 thing no matter what the congestion level is, or when. Sounds very similar to the Sandvine lies...only during congestion my @ss!!! Their customers were easily savvy enuff to catch them injecting RSTs into bit torrent (props Rob..:) ) do they really think this 24/7 throttling is gonna fly? That's right...they'll use a legal dodge to justify 24/7...because they declared they would have the new system in place/operational by 'the end of the year'. So the 24/7 will stay for at least till 2009 then eh? |
|
TKJunkMail
Enjoy the sun
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Avalon, NJ
 ·Sprint Mobile Broa..
 ·Comcast
1 edit | Nice theory, but no proof that your node wasn't overloaded at the time you were slowed down. Maybe others in your area were testing the new system.
Also no proof that your local system has implemented the new throttling system yet. You may have been caught in the old system which can be in place until year end. |
|
AVonGauss
Premium,MVM
join:2007-11-01
Boynton Beach, FL
3 edits | reply to Movieman420
The only problem Movieman420 is, as described, it is not a throttle based system. I know a lot of people like to use the throttle word and describe it as a throttle, but it really isn't, it is a QoS technique. Your download or upload speed is not throttled to a specific artificial number, but rather the network just decides a different priority for your traffic which may or may not affect your throughput depending on whats going on. This is very similar to the QoS rules people have been using on their own routers to prioritize VoIP traffic for years, except for the Comcast system determines your priority based on line conditions and your current rate of consumption - not the type of traffic.
I haven't experienced it myself yet so I can't be sure, but based on the technical data provided the symptoms I believe would be as follows. Assuming your line (CMTS port) has been identified as in a congested state and assuming you were downloading a large file from a server, say a Linux DVD ISO and the server has sufficient available bandwidth to saturate your connection.
You would start your download, it would PowerBoost for a bit, but probably not as large of a PowerBoost as you might see on some speed test sites at others times. Why? Remember, the line has to be in a congested state which will slow things down naturally. Remember, the "system" at this point still hasn't kicked in. You keep downloading the ISO, the download rate will probably fluctuate a bit throughout the transfer (600-1000 kbps maybe, a guess). Again, why, the line is experience a level of congestion.
About 20 minutes later you check on your download, the average download rate will probably be less than before but fluctuating more wildly now (600-4096 kbps). The "system" has kicked in and your traffic has been re-prioritized. Depending on how others on your line are using their connection, you might have less opportunity to use all of your bandwidth, or your speed may very well be unchanged.
So, what's the point of the system? While you're downloading that 4.4 GB ISO file if your neighbor walks over to their computer and wants to browse, say the DSLForums, they probably won't even realize the line is temporarily congested and their experience will probably be like any other time. Or, the controversial one, if Johnny mega torrent downloader or Johnny mega seeder is constantly try to transfer traffic, their impact on other users should be negligible and guess what, the torrents will still run. One user downloading a single ISO is not going to saturate any line, but multiply that by many more users (say 50-200), that can be an area for concern.
Do I believe this system is an attempt to avoid adding additional capacity? I doubt it, a line that is at capacity will still be a line at capacity even with this system. What it does is help even out the times where there is a surge in demand such as during major events, especially video related events like the Olympics or the debates.
Also, it should be noted from the technical data I believe the system is determining congestion per CMTS port. So, for it to kick in it would have to be your neighbors that are also using the line at the same time. That doesn't mean there aren't other points of possible congestion inside and outside of the Comcast network that may affect your transfer rates.
For the record, even in the wee hours of the night in the US, the US backbone is still pretty active. |
|
funchords
Hello
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Washington, DC
 ·Verizon Online DSL
 ·Skype
| Movieman420: Thanks! and Thanks for the nice report. I'm not quite sure what was happening there.
TK:
I'm not sure what "proof" means, but when the system is this nebulous, proof won't be necessary for users and techs alike to blame everything from DNS failures to male-pattern baldness on it.
That said, I don't know that it's up in West Virginia. Something happened to Movieman420. Nobody knows why, but in 2-3 months, given that set of facts, no tech on the planet is going to lift a finger to investigate his trouble report -- referring instead to Comcast's bandwidth "management." And since it's a closed system, nobody will know if it is to blame or not.
Comcast essentially traded an unsupportable system with an unsupportable system. (Still, at least this one is disclosed.)
AVonGauss:
You've got a great grasp on the situation and the scenario. Good play-by-play. I think it'll be pretty close to that once the install is done.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
More features, more fun, Join BroadbandReports.com, it's free...
|
|
Augustus III
If Only Rome Could See Us Now....
join:2001-01-25
Gainesville, GA
| reply to sortofageek
I had a free for all spree in september before the caps kicked in... I will not tell you how much i used because that will turn into a flame right away.
No call yet. I figure I had to have a one free for all feast before the formal cap hit right. Im sure many others did the same too.
Otherwise i am at anything from 60-220gb a month depending how much time im at home. |
|
Movieman420
join:2007-08-28
Rivesville, WV
1 edit | reply to funchords
My bad for generalizing CC's bw management technique as 'throttling'...I'm well aware of the actual QoS prioritization approach they are using. All the 'ifs' and 'buts' aside...Comcast is restricting available bw during NON peak hours. They lied..pure and simple. Btw...did another test at 3:00AM EST....same..got knocked to 300k down after ~15mins. Was too tired to ease my d/l rate to..say, 50k and wait another 15 mins to see if my QoS status gets stored per their 'rules' but I was too damn tired. Will do a full round of tests in the next night or 2 during VERY off peak hours..between 3am and 5am. Something tells me I can't be the only seeing this during non-peak hours... 
Anyone else 'tested' the system yet? What did you see? |
|
funchords
Hello
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Washington, DC
·Verizon Online DSL
·Skype
| It's not even supposed to be turned on in your area, and I'm pretty surprised that you're seeing it on the download side.
Can you post your first couple of traceroute hops so that Comcast CTO's office (who read this board) can comment on whether its turned on in your area? |
|
AVonGauss
Premium,MVM
join:2007-11-01
Boynton Beach, FL
1 edit | reply to Movieman420
I think quite a few more details, like how you are "testing" and more details about your approach and equipment might be a good first step before stating anyone has lied. I'm not saying its impossible, not enough facts yet, but you've twice described your transfer being limited to 300 kbps which I really don't think would be a symptom of the new system. Its probably not necessary to "test the system" during off hours until more baseline data has been collected.
Also, unless I missed it, I'm not sure Comcast has ever stated the system would not be in use during "non peak" hours. My impression is the system will be active at all times. |
|
funchords
Hello
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Washington, DC
·Verizon Online DSL
·Skype
| said by AVonGauss  :Also, unless I missed it, I'm not sure Comcast has ever stated the system would not be in use during "non peak" hours. My impression is the system will be active at all times. True, but unless the node is actually congested, there should be no loss of throughput in any state of the scheme.
I definitely think Movieman420 is saying the truth. We just don't know why this is happening either to him or to others in his area. For now, I wouldn't worry about it systemwide too much, since the system is not installed (hardware installation should be going for the next 6 weeks, market conversion for the 6 weeks that follow that).
Movieman, what are your upload and download limits set to?
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
More features, more fun, Join BroadbandReports.com, it's free...
|
|
syrkel2
join:2003-12-02
Galesburg, IL
·Comcast
1 edit | reply to sortofageek
bandwidth limits during peak hours
just got this email today
Dear Comcast High-Speed Internet Customer:
Comcast is committed to providing you with the best online experience possible.
One of the ways we do that is by managing the leading fiber optic network in the nation to ensure it is fast, safe and reliable. As part of our ongoing efforts to continuously improve the quality of our service, we are switching to a new network congestion management technique by the end of the year. It is focused on managing network congestion only when and where it may occur. It will also replace the current technique and will help ensure that all of our customers receive their fair share of network resources.
What does this mean for you? Probably nothing. We ran five market trials of this technique over the summer and found that less than one percent of customers were affected. So, the vast majority of customers will not notice any change to their Internet experience as a result of this new technique. During the times of busiest network use (which could occur at any hour, depending on your neighborhood), those very few extraordinarily heavy users – who are doing things like conducting multiple and continuous large file transfers – may experience slightly longer response times for some online activities until the period of network congestion ends.
As we transition to this new technique, we have amended our Acceptable Use Policy ("AUP") and posted it on the Comcast.net Web site. For links to the amended AUP, as well as answers to Frequently Asked Questions and more information about this new technique or our network management efforts in general, please visit our Network Management Policy page at: www.comcast.net/networkmanagement.
Thank you again for choosing Comcast as your high-speed Internet provider.
This is a service-related email. Comcast will occasionally send you service-related emails to inform you of service upgrades or new benefits to your Comcast High-Speed Internet service.
Copyright 2008. Comcast. All other trademarks are properties of their respective owners.
Comcast respects your privacy. For a complete description of our privacy policy, click here.
Comcast
One Comcast Center, 10th Floor
1701 JFK Boulevard
Philadelphia, PA 19103-2838
Attn: CHSI
|
|
AVonGauss
Premium,MVM
join:2007-11-01
Boynton Beach, FL | I was wondering how long it was going to take for someone to post that e-mail...  |
|
icemaniceman1111
@comcast.net
| this live chat with a comcast rep should be of interest.
highlights.....
bandwidth cap not in place yet
you can request unlimited data but will have to take the original speed you signed up for
no tools to monitor bandwidth yet.
currently my house gets 21mb down but when I signed up I got 6mb down
hmmm...... 21mb with the cap or 6mb without
watch out for the tricky stuff below, I am not sure if it was intentional or a miscommunication.
----------------------
date october 10,2008 10pm est
b------_ > my concern is for bandwidth cap comcast has imposed
comcast rep > I'm doing great, b------. Thank you for asking.
b------_ > I use many services at my house and need the unlimited service I signed up for
comcast rep > How may I help you?
b------_ > I did not agreed to a capped service and I request that you reinstate my unlimited service that I signed up for... thanks
comcast rep > I understand that you want to have your original Internet speed?
b------_ > yes i request to have my original speed reinstated
b------_ > now...wait
b------_ > I am getting 21 mb down will that be changed?
comcast rep > I understand that you want to have your speed back, b------.
b------_ > or will I get the current speed?
comcast rep > Yes, once bandwidth has been regulated, you will get your original speeds back.
b------_ > well speed and bandwidth capacity are two different thing correct?
comcast rep > Right.
b------_ > hmm.....so you can reinstate my unlimited bandwidth but you will throttle back my speed to my original speed? correct? and that speed was __________mb/sec (fill in blank)
b------_ > i like my current speed
comcast rep > That is correct, b------.
b------_ > so will my speed decrease?
comcast rep > Your speed will be back to what you have signed up for.
b------_ > and what speed will that be?
comcast rep > Let me go ahead and check on that for you.
comcast rep > For verification purposes, may I have the account number and the account holder's full name?
comcast rep > I have checked on your account and I have seen that you are currently subscribed to 6Mbps Internet service.
b------_ > I see, however.....I like 21mb service you currently so generously provide to my neighborhood
b------_ > so if i want to keep that upgrade then i would have to accept the current cap of 250gb/month correct?
b------_ > hmm....
comcast rep > You are correct.
b------_ > I see....
b------_ > so.....
comcast rep > Also, while Comcast has not announced any plan to cap the Internet usage of our customers, we are "currently evaluating this service and pricing model to ensure we deliver a great online experience to our customers."
b------_ > oh....so currently there is no cap?
comcast rep > We will keep you informed if bandwidth capping will be implemented.
b------_ > and will you notify me my email if there is one?
comcast rep > Yes b------. We will notify you.
comcast rep > Do you have any other concern?
b------_ > excellent, thanks and you provide a usage meter I assume that will be router or account based so I can keep track of total usage from my house?
comcast rep > As of the moment, we do not have that tool yet.
b------_ > ok great, let me know when you have it, you have been a great help and most informative
b------_ > have a great day
b------_ > bye |
|
joe642
join:2008-08-14 | reply to sortofageek
Re: Bandwidth Limits - All discussion here
Does anyone know if comcast has anything for small business and is it un effected by the 250GB cap? |
|
sortofageek
Premium,Mod
join:2001-08-19
Valhalla Dr
clubs:
·Comcast
Host:
Team Helix
Distributed Comput..
Linksys
Comcast HSI
Comcast Cable TV
| CCmike responded to that question recently. His post is linked in the first post of this thread.
This was his reply:
said by CCmike : On the business class services there are no bandwidth limitations. Yes, there is no Month to Month option for the business class internet service. It is a 12 month minimum service agreement.
--
Join Team Helix * I am praying for these friends . |
|
AVonGauss
Premium,MVM
join:2007-11-01
Boynton Beach, FL
| reply to icemaniceman1111
Re: bandwidth limits during peak hours
said by icemaniceman1111 :
bandwidth cap not in place yet
Incorrect, it is not a cap in the sense that your Internet stops working or you are throttled in to oblivion. It is a threshold, currently at 250 GB, which if you cross in a single month could possibly cause you to appear on their radar as a heavy user. The policy has been in effect for many years, what has changed recently is the announcement of a number - 250 GB.
Basically, if you're using less than 250 GB a month, you should have no cause for concern regarding the heavy user policy, unless its just on basic principles. I believe all customers were sent an AUP change announcement e-mail, I would suggest that you read it and the updated AUP if you want to know what their policies are currently.
said by icemaniceman1111 :
you can request unlimited data but will have to take the original speed you signed up for
Unfortunately, no, it does not work that way. Based on your chat log, you appear to be subscribed to the Performance (6 MB / 1 MB) tier. Any speeds you are observing higher than those rates are due to a feature called PowerBoost which provides additional bandwidth for a limited period of time.
said by icemaniceman1111 :
no tools to monitor bandwidth yet.
Correct. Just to note they have updated their FAQ and also communicated through semi-official channels that they intend to provide their customers the ability to monitor their bandwidth usage. AFAIK, no details have been said regarding in what form that would be implemented.
said by icemaniceman1111 :
currently my house gets 21mb down but when I signed up I got 6mb down
PowerBoost.
said by icemaniceman1111 :
hmmm...... 21mb with the cap or 6mb without
watch out for the tricky stuff below, I am not sure if it was intentional or a miscommunication.
See previous answer above. |
|
icemaniceman1111
@comcast.net
| avongauss
thanks for the excellent information.
many subscribers are unaware of what is going on because they do not get the emails from comcast as they are sent to their original comcast address which may do not use and may not be forwarded
we were unaware of the change through this channel and I became aware of it through tech podcasts and tech blogs
comcast through the chat line was able to reset my comcast password giving me access to the email system and then I was able to update the comcast email and have them forward announcements of change of service.
note that comcast.net and comcast.com are different and have a different signin---that is stupid.
so now we have access to all the delightful information from comcast.
Comcast service here is pretty good, we are in framingham, ma -- 20 miles outside boston and FIOS was put in our neighborhood so we have a choice.
There is a lot of stickiness to the service as we have a DVR with lots of recorded shows and love it
We watch no live TV because the ability to skip commercials is so attractive as there is no interruptions. We often watch an hour show after time shifting for 18 minutes.
I found out the engineers at left in the 30 skip ahead button hidden inside and we remapped a button to restore and it is .....sweet.
»dcortesi.com/2005/05/04/motorola···nd-skip/
we will never go back, regular commercial tv is almost unwatchable now without this ability to skip commercials easily--fast forward is history.
One question. What is the deal with the upload speed on comcast? Speedtest.net shows 5mb upload for up to 100% then it hangs a 100% for about 8 seconds and goes down to 1.5mb. Then it shows upload speed of 1.5mb
We have never been notified of any bandwidth overage. Our usage was moderate, no bittorrent, kids would download music but no movies and they are in school, away from home. I download podcasts often, audio only. I use skype but even though I have a incoming number don't leave it on 24 hours a day.
On my windows machine the kerio firewall shows the skype traffic and it can have 30-60 calls transiting, it is hard to believe that, as skype says,
"On average Skype uses 0-0.5 kilobytes/sec while idle. This is used mainly for contact presence updates. The exact bandwidth depends on many factors."
cheers,
iceman |
|
AVonGauss
Premium,MVM
join:2007-11-01
Boynton Beach, FL | The upload speed was upgraded in most areas to 1 MB or 2 MB depending on the tier that you have - with PowerBoost that can go up to 5 MB in some areas for a brief amount of time. |
|
Movieman420
join:2007-08-28
Rivesville, WV
3 edits | reply to funchords
Re: Bandwidth Limits - All discussion here
When I tested to see if I got de-prioritized at 3 a.m., I used bit torrent. I set uTorrent to unlimited d/l and restricted u/l to 75kbps so there is plenty of bw avail for the bt protocol to handle my max d/l. I have the Blast! 16/2 tier. After powerboost stops my max d/l settles to ~1.9 - 2.1 MB/s and my u/l max is ~190kbps. Both times I tested 'so to speak' my d/l dropped to almost EXACTLY 300k on BOTH occasions...and since these tests were on different nights I seriously doubt it's coincidence. I will try and do the traceroute for you tonight Robb.
Another thought...ever since I got 'the call' for the first time..over a year ago now..I figured out that staying under 300GB/mo kept me from making the top .01% list...so I setup NetLimiter 2 to warn me when I hit the 250GB mark. But I am sure that my connection appears on some high bw list somewhere at CC even tho I keep it under 300 and have had no further calls. I wonder if peeps on that list are treated to 24/7 enforcement...pure speculation I know.
One thing that would seem to support your info that the new system isn't in place in my area is the fact that I've not received a single email, phone call or letter informing me of the new changes. As mentioned above, I'm also pretty sure that the 250gb soft cap is in effect and pulling 300gb will get you a phone call...thats easy for them to implement I figure.
Tonight I'll test again with a few changes. I'll repeat the test d/ling with bit torrent as well as doing an FTP d/l from a friends gigabit server. Will do the traceroutes for each as well...I'll shit if the bt d/l triggers the QoS change but the FTP transfer does not...seems the sandvine box could manage that no prob..lol.  Tho I'm sure the results will most likely be the same. If/When my bw gets knocked down, I'll also do a speedtest and screenshot as well during the '15 min' period. I'll then knock my d/l speed down to, say, 100kbps, wait 20 mins and see if I can resume using my max bw like I should be able to.
Can't help but wonder...if indeed the QoS system isn't officially active in my area but I'm still seeing this behavior...could CC be targeting high bw users that slide in just under the 'limit' every month?
Like I said...pure speculation thus far. Will post my results along with screenshots then I get the chance. |
|
AVonGauss
Premium,MVM
join:2007-11-01
Boynton Beach, FL
1 edit | The "cap" policy has not changed best I can tell, the only thing that changed is they now publish a number - 250 GB. When you originally posted your concern, I am pretty sure the new QoS system was not in effect for your area, but the longer this thread continues it increases the likelyhood that it will be...
Also, if your purpose is to test BitTorrent traffic, I would also suggest connecting your computer directly to the modem for the test to eliminate any issues with the router(s) and the session tracking. |
|
funchords
Hello
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Washington, DC
·Verizon Online DSL
·Skype
| reply to Movieman420
Hey Movieman,
Do me a favor and review (and edit) your message and make sure you've specified b (bits) and B (bytes) correctly, including the 300k figure. I just want to keep the story straight.
During your testing, when you see the flat 300k(B/b)? kicked in, see if removing your u/l speed limit changes what's happening on the download side. (I want to ensure that your upload limit isn't responsible for rate limiting your d/l side -- I'm not sure if uT works that way.)
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
More features, more fun, Join BroadbandReports.com, it's free...
|
|
